Guild Wars 2

AegisRunestone.8672:

That allows exploitation of other players, it isn’t right.

It’s the opposite actually. Party with a dps meter can spot a leecher or a liar in their group before first boss is even dead and decide if they should carry or get rid of him.

did you know Anet can actually know if a DPS meter is on, data usage is higher and the game acts as a control for the program.
detect that and they can monitor this, even ban ppl for using a DPS meter.

grumpychuhua.8417:

That might solve some of the problem ,but I’ve seen players in top gear still be kitten bad at the game and their classes

I’d be one of those players. I built a nice ascended Viper’s set, maxxed out my AR, and am waiting on a couple buy orders for runes to come in. It was a nice long term goal so my GM had someone who, while not a good player, could meet the minimum requirements of following directions and not being locked out due to agony resist. Now that it’s pretty much done though I’m in the awkward position of having a set that others probably don’t think I deserve to own. If nothing else, I’ve confused people with it.

I don’t mind DPS meters really; they’re useful tools for troubleshooting and progression. But I know I’m not suitable for the company of elite players because I’m an NFG player. They’d probably be ticked off at me for existing.

BurningHeavy.7268:

TheOrlyFactor.8341:

Nice to see the raiding community is consistent in being awful as usual. :^)

Why? Boss has dps checks, low dps players get kicked. This is the most logical thing possible! It used to be it didn’t matter how good you were, if you werent running a meta class (read ele) and the group wiped due to lack of dps you were kicked. Terrible eles were filling groups and doing pathetic dps, but since they were meta (because if you’re good the potential dps is through the roof)they’d never get kicked. Now WITH dps meters I DON’T get kicked because my guard pushes 17k dps while eles doing 300dps DO get kicked. It’s fair! I won’t argue that gear score/ilevel is bull kitten but dps meters? no son.

I agree with your comment so much.

And sorry, i have to question the intentions of people rejecting dps meters. If you have low dps and they let you know or they even kick you out of the party, they are giving you a chance to improve.

If you don’t want to improve, why should they be carrying you? What kind of people expect to ruin 9 people’s experience because they are not willing to cooperate?

If you do want to improve, they are just telling you and they probably can give you hints. Even using the dpsmeter yourself would be a great idea. Don’t know why anyone would settle for mediocre performance for life. knowing this is a team game.

BurningHeavy.7268:

How? Explain how? Without dps meters community perception is all that would matter. There would be nothing but ele’s and buff kittenes. With DPS meters eles doing 8dps will get kicked because they are bad, while guardians doing 20k dps will be kept around, even tho their class isn’t meta at the current time. This does NOTHING but improve the game.

This does not improve the game, it improves your personal experience. Those are 2 very different things. You make it sound like a dps-meter is essential for raids, but it most certainly is not. Pay more attention to the screen instead of the overlay and you’ll find the less skilled players are easy to spot. This game never needed dps-meters and it certainly doesn’t need them now, definitely not one that shows other people’s dps and gear.

TheNecrosanct.4028:

BurningHeavy.7268:

How? Explain how? Without dps meters community perception is all that would matter. There would be nothing but ele’s and buff kittenes. With DPS meters eles doing 8dps will get kicked because they are bad, while guardians doing 20k dps will be kept around, even tho their class isn’t meta at the current time. This does NOTHING but improve the game.

This does not improve the game, it improves your personal experience. Those are 2 very different things. You make it sound like a dps-meter is essential for raids, but it most certainly is not. Pay more attention to the screen instead of the overlay and you’ll find the less skilled players are easy to spot. This game never needed dps-meters and it certainly doesn’t need them now, definitely not one that shows other people’s dps and gear.

While you’re technically correct, I find dps meters to be tools of great value. Being able to spot problems in dps or buff coverage, or various other uptimes, can help optimize your play and your group. Just because a tool can be used for toxicity doesn’t mean it is only used for it. Nor does it mean they cause it. Toxicity originate in the players, not their tools. Take away one tool, they’ll find another. It’s just that simple.

Feanor.2358:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

BurningHeavy.7268:

How? Explain how? Without dps meters community perception is all that would matter. There would be nothing but ele’s and buff kittenes. With DPS meters eles doing 8dps will get kicked because they are bad, while guardians doing 20k dps will be kept around, even tho their class isn’t meta at the current time. This does NOTHING but improve the game.

This does not improve the game, it improves your personal experience. Those are 2 very different things. You make it sound like a dps-meter is essential for raids, but it most certainly is not. Pay more attention to the screen instead of the overlay and you’ll find the less skilled players are easy to spot. This game never needed dps-meters and it certainly doesn’t need them now, definitely not one that shows other people’s dps and gear.

While you’re technically correct, I find dps meters to be tools of great value. Being able to spot problems in dps or buff coverage, or various other uptimes, can help optimize your play and your group. Just because a tool can be used for toxicity doesn’t mean it is only used for it. Nor does it mean they cause it. Toxicity originate in the players, not their tools. Take away one tool, they’ll find another. It’s just that simple.

but the tool does spur the toxicity more then without one, remove the tool and ppl need to experience a player more direct rather then relying on a tool to tell them what to do.

sorudo.9054:

Feanor.2358:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

BurningHeavy.7268:

How? Explain how? Without dps meters community perception is all that would matter. There would be nothing but ele’s and buff kittenes. With DPS meters eles doing 8dps will get kicked because they are bad, while guardians doing 20k dps will be kept around, even tho their class isn’t meta at the current time. This does NOTHING but improve the game.

This does not improve the game, it improves your personal experience. Those are 2 very different things. You make it sound like a dps-meter is essential for raids, but it most certainly is not. Pay more attention to the screen instead of the overlay and you’ll find the less skilled players are easy to spot. This game never needed dps-meters and it certainly doesn’t need them now, definitely not one that shows other people’s dps and gear.

While you’re technically correct, I find dps meters to be tools of great value. Being able to spot problems in dps or buff coverage, or various other uptimes, can help optimize your play and your group. Just because a tool can be used for toxicity doesn’t mean it is only used for it. Nor does it mean they cause it. Toxicity originate in the players, not their tools. Take away one tool, they’ll find another. It’s just that simple.

but the tool does spur the toxicity more then without one, remove the tool and ppl need to experience a player more direct rather then relying on a tool to tell them what to do.

Remove the tool and people will kick you because you don’t have 25k+ AP

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Theory crafting is fine but using it as a tool to shut people out is flat wrong.

Umm, you did notice people kicked others over elitist reasons well before damage meters in GW2, right? Since day 1 and all?

Haishao.6851:

Remove the tool and people will kick you because you don’t have 25k+ AP

Or 100 LI. Or the wrong runes on your pinged armor.

Which is exactly what happened before, come to think of it. Almost as if the problem were the players, not the damage meter. kitten . Who would have thought…

Carighan.6758:

Haishao.6851:

Remove the tool and people will kick you because you don’t have 25k+ AP

Or 100 LI. Or the wrong runes on your pinged armor.

Or having a class thats not Ele.

TBH if there is a kick, I’d rather see a kick because of actual data and not because of perception or bias. We had an Ele time in raids, where people felt that they had to be ele even though they didn’t like the class, to play raids. which resulted in Eles that couldn’t play their class and having abysmal dps. But even with crap dps people were like " more eles".

Thanks to the DPS-Meters the community saw that other classes are also viable, even more than a bad ele and the accepted composition shifted to more diversity.

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

Ashley.9304:

notebene.3190:

It’s why I probably won’t ever get to make one of the newer style legendaries, since you have to do fractals, and I’m betting no one wants me to tag along.

I did manage an old school Bifrost before HoT, and did Aurora, so that was fun.

It’s just not fun. Even if you “can” do it. People always assume that if you’re against meters you’re a bad player, but that’s not true. Whether I know what I’m doing or just kind of bumbling around, either way, the "meter’ makes it unfun. It’s like being policed by people I don’t even know, and since we don’t know each other there is a free pass to be jerks.

It’s unfun. I can’t tell you how many times in WoW we’d down a new boss and the first thing everyone would do is start comparing their meters to see who “beat” who. Uhhh… didn’t we just collectively beat the boss? Why are we now beating each other when we are supposed to be a team?

Maybe I just don’t have the same competitive mentality and therefore don’t “get” it. I’ve always hated this DPS meter stuff though. It’s a pass to be mean, unhelpful, and it causes real anxiety for a lot of folks to know that we’re all essentially being spied on by total strangers. I could count on one hand the times I saw someone use DPS meter information as a learning tool. The number of times I saw someone use it as a free pass to be rude? Boy, I’d need to grow 200 more hands to count that.

I have to agree with you on this fully !! and I will not say which one of the two dps meters it is but I can say when pof comes out next month one of thos said dps meters will be fully dead and thankfully never ever coming back . bad part is that it will still leave us in the same stuck point .with the other one and all these well not too bright dps meters peeps running around . trying to take away from our fun in the game . personally when I see people in the game or forums talking about this topic . I put them in the blocked list in game . so at least it saves me some headaches their .

I don’t know why you are anti-BGDM (the addon in question). You should actually be upset that it’s going down. BGDM only showed other people’s dps if they installed it. Not only that, but there is a setting to stop it from sharing your information so that it only acts as a personal dps meter. Which is actually a very positive thing because it helps you improve. With BGDM down, everyone will now be using arcdps which shows everyone’s dps.

Though to be honest, for me it’s been fine. I was VERY wary of things going downhill when Anet first announced that they were allowing meters. Especially, since they said they were ok with group dps meters. I could foresee all sorts of bad behavior. That said, I haven’t experienced this at all so far. I’ve used both meters and have had found them to be helpful overall at least in terms of self improvement.

Aomine.5012:

Yobculture.5786:

The moment raids were implemented into the game, of course it was going to be inevitable. I use my DPS meter all the time to judge how well I’m doing against other people on a particular encounter.

It also shows buff uptimes so I can maybe suggest things to people to help them get better. Please do not think that DPS meters mean the end of GW2 is coming, it’s just that we need reliable metrics to be able to do raids properly and monitor what is going right/wrong in a particular raid group.

(PSA the people who kicked you are idiots, most of the people I know aren’t like that. Still, it helps to have an idea of what your DPS rotation should be if you’re going to play T4 fractals – which is what I’m going to assume you got kicked from if they kicked you for “low DPS”.).

It’d be funny if my Druid get kicked because of people like you to use dps meter and judge my dps base on it, despite me providing permanent protection/ dps buff/ heal/ regen/ fury / might to the whole party .

Not everyone use dps meter for good intention, like improving yourself.
They use it to look down on other purely base on their dps.

If you’re playing Druid I am basing my expectations of you based on how much GoTL you’re upkeeping. DPS will always be secondary to me on a Condition Druid. I don’t care how much DPS you deal, you’re playing a Druid. I don’t know anyone who kicks a Druid for low DPS. If someone did kick you for low DPS as a druid, they’re bad and need to acknowledge that.

Raids, by their nature, aren’t content for everyone. If you (want to) raid, it’s expected for you to have at least a modicum of common sense and finesse with regards to your class so you’re not just sat there auto-attacking. Before DPS meters were introduced people would just kick all the non-meta classes because we didn’t know what was going on, but now that we can tell who’s doing most of the legwork we can get an accurate picture of who’s being deadweight and who isn’t.

Yes it’s ridiculous that people judge others on their DPS in fractals, but if you’re doing 100cm or maybe even 99cm it’s a good metric of who’s doing what.

Also, yes, there might be an increase in toxicity, but quite frankly those people who are toxic now were toxic before and won’t stop being toxic. The final solution (lol) to this would be to just stop joining those types of groups altogether so you can stop feeling insecure. In my opinion, the pros greatly outweigh the cons and we can now start making decisions backed by statistics and numbers instead of just screwing around until something happens.

If you are a druid, no one is going to expect insane damage from you. Especially, if you are a magi druid. It is very much understood that druids are there for support/buffs. That said, someone might kick you if you aren’t supporting well enough through GotL, spirits, etc.

Anyone who kicks a druid for dps is just being absolutely ridiculous. You wouldn’t want to be in a group with people like that anyway.

Makuragee.3058:

So today I have been kicked out of a fractal party cause my dps was not maked out, they confirm using dps meter. So now people can use dps meter? So arenanet you change your mind? Can I ask a refund of my entire account cause I clearly remember back a couple year ago dps meter was illegal and thats was one of the reason I started playing this game. To avoid kittens players. If I recall the user agreement speak of this? Did anet change the user agreement without notice or I miss something?

the game is trying to become more WoW clone like I guess. complete with add-ons, 2nd jobs (raiding job after you come home from work), toxicity, hamster wheel gear tiers etc. etc.

I would really like the CEO of A-Net to come and comment on the general game direction, specifically the degredation of its original vision and how it was marketed and sold.

Tongku.5326:

Makuragee.3058:

So today I have been kicked out of a fractal party cause my dps was not maked out, they confirm using dps meter. So now people can use dps meter? So arenanet you change your mind? Can I ask a refund of my entire account cause I clearly remember back a couple year ago dps meter was illegal and thats was one of the reason I started playing this game. To avoid kittens players. If I recall the user agreement speak of this? Did anet change the user agreement without notice or I miss something?

the game is trying to become more WoW clone like I guess. complete with add-ons, 2nd jobs (raiding job after you come home from work), toxicity, hamster wheel gear tiers etc. etc.

I would really like the CEO of A-Net to come and comment on the general game direction, specifically the degredation of its original vision and how it was marketed and sold.

A normal raiding “full clear” group can clear all 13 bosses in about 3 hours, so I’m not sure what you mean by saying that raids are a second job.

Also, what proof do you have that we will have “hamster wheel gear tiers”?

Haishao.6851:

sorudo.9054:

Feanor.2358:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

BurningHeavy.7268:

How? Explain how? Without dps meters community perception is all that would matter. There would be nothing but ele’s and buff kittenes. With DPS meters eles doing 8dps will get kicked because they are bad, while guardians doing 20k dps will be kept around, even tho their class isn’t meta at the current time. This does NOTHING but improve the game.

This does not improve the game, it improves your personal experience. Those are 2 very different things. You make it sound like a dps-meter is essential for raids, but it most certainly is not. Pay more attention to the screen instead of the overlay and you’ll find the less skilled players are easy to spot. This game never needed dps-meters and it certainly doesn’t need them now, definitely not one that shows other people’s dps and gear.

While you’re technically correct, I find dps meters to be tools of great value. Being able to spot problems in dps or buff coverage, or various other uptimes, can help optimize your play and your group. Just because a tool can be used for toxicity doesn’t mean it is only used for it. Nor does it mean they cause it. Toxicity originate in the players, not their tools. Take away one tool, they’ll find another. It’s just that simple.

but the tool does spur the toxicity more then without one, remove the tool and ppl need to experience a player more direct rather then relying on a tool to tell them what to do.

Remove the tool and people will kick you because you don’t have 25k+ AP

they already do, ppl think AP ir IL actually matters and a spit on ppl who do.

Anet hasn’t added a new tier since Ascended back in 2012. They stated they will never add new tiers. So he is just guessing.

And raiding in this game is very much not hardcore. I used to raid a lot in WoW, so I do understand the “second job” feel to it. But GW2’s raiding doesn’t feel that way to me. It’s quite fun actually.

sorudo.9054:

Haishao.6851:

sorudo.9054:

Feanor.2358:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

BurningHeavy.7268:

How? Explain how? Without dps meters community perception is all that would matter. There would be nothing but ele’s and buff kittenes. With DPS meters eles doing 8dps will get kicked because they are bad, while guardians doing 20k dps will be kept around, even tho their class isn’t meta at the current time. This does NOTHING but improve the game.

This does not improve the game, it improves your personal experience. Those are 2 very different things. You make it sound like a dps-meter is essential for raids, but it most certainly is not. Pay more attention to the screen instead of the overlay and you’ll find the less skilled players are easy to spot. This game never needed dps-meters and it certainly doesn’t need them now, definitely not one that shows other people’s dps and gear.

While you’re technically correct, I find dps meters to be tools of great value. Being able to spot problems in dps or buff coverage, or various other uptimes, can help optimize your play and your group. Just because a tool can be used for toxicity doesn’t mean it is only used for it. Nor does it mean they cause it. Toxicity originate in the players, not their tools. Take away one tool, they’ll find another. It’s just that simple.

but the tool does spur the toxicity more then without one, remove the tool and ppl need to experience a player more direct rather then relying on a tool to tell them what to do.

Remove the tool and people will kick you because you don’t have 25k+ AP

they already do, ppl think AP ir IL actually matters and a spit on ppl who do.

I haven’t seen anyone do that in raids in fractals in the past year and a half or so (or dungeons, since raids released and everyone forgot about them).

Makuragee.3058:

So today I have been kicked out of a fractal party cause my dps was not maked out, they confirm using dps meter. So now people can use dps meter? So arenanet you change your mind? Can I ask a refund of my entire account cause I clearly remember back a couple year ago dps meter was illegal and thats was one of the reason I started playing this game. To avoid kittens players. If I recall the user agreement speak of this? Did anet change the user agreement without notice or I miss something?

Yes, they changed their minds with the advent of raiding.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5sw8ey/arenanets_official_stance_on_3rd_party_dps_meters/

DPS meters are not the devil but few are made well at all

xarallei.4279:

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

Ashley.9304:

notebene.3190:

It’s why I probably won’t ever get to make one of the newer style legendaries, since you have to do fractals, and I’m betting no one wants me to tag along.

I did manage an old school Bifrost before HoT, and did Aurora, so that was fun.

It’s just not fun. Even if you “can” do it. People always assume that if you’re against meters you’re a bad player, but that’s not true. Whether I know what I’m doing or just kind of bumbling around, either way, the "meter’ makes it unfun. It’s like being policed by people I don’t even know, and since we don’t know each other there is a free pass to be jerks.

It’s unfun. I can’t tell you how many times in WoW we’d down a new boss and the first thing everyone would do is start comparing their meters to see who “beat” who. Uhhh… didn’t we just collectively beat the boss? Why are we now beating each other when we are supposed to be a team?

Maybe I just don’t have the same competitive mentality and therefore don’t “get” it. I’ve always hated this DPS meter stuff though. It’s a pass to be mean, unhelpful, and it causes real anxiety for a lot of folks to know that we’re all essentially being spied on by total strangers. I could count on one hand the times I saw someone use DPS meter information as a learning tool. The number of times I saw someone use it as a free pass to be rude? Boy, I’d need to grow 200 more hands to count that.

I have to agree with you on this fully !! and I will not say which one of the two dps meters it is but I can say when pof comes out next month one of thos said dps meters will be fully dead and thankfully never ever coming back . bad part is that it will still leave us in the same stuck point .with the other one and all these well not too bright dps meters peeps running around . trying to take away from our fun in the game . personally when I see people in the game or forums talking about this topic . I put them in the blocked list in game . so at least it saves me some headaches their .

I don’t know why you are anti-BGDM (the addon in question). You should actually be upset that it’s going down. BGDM only showed other people’s dps if they installed it. Not only that, but there is a setting to stop it from sharing your information so that it only acts as a personal dps meter. Which is actually a very positive thing because it helps you improve. With BGDM down, everyone will now be using arcdps which shows everyone’s dps.

Though to be honest, for me it’s been fine. I was VERY wary of things going downhill when Anet first announced that they were allowing meters. Especially, since they said they were ok with group dps meters. I could foresee all sorts of bad behavior. That said, I haven’t experienced this at all so far. I’ve used both meters and have had found them to be helpful overall at least in terms of self improvement.

I will tell you why that DPS meter is so bad.

1. It’s too small – the text is miniscule

2. Updates sometimes don’t work and the author denies anyone having any issues ‘but you’ baloney.

3. The owner has given up on GW2 and is looking for someone to ‘take over’ the project of the meter. GW2 isn’t good enough to play but good enough to gain from? NOPE.

I had absolutely no issues with the BGDM UI. In fact, it’s my favorite and I prefer it to arc. Also, never had problems with the updates and loved that they were automatic. As for the third point, I don’t understand how that makes the meter “bad.” The meter is still perfectly good. It’s a shame that he’s dropping it and hopefully someone else takes up the mantle.

Haishao.6851:

sorudo.9054:

Feanor.2358:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

BurningHeavy.7268:

How? Explain how? Without dps meters community perception is all that would matter. There would be nothing but ele’s and buff kittenes. With DPS meters eles doing 8dps will get kicked because they are bad, while guardians doing 20k dps will be kept around, even tho their class isn’t meta at the current time. This does NOTHING but improve the game.

This does not improve the game, it improves your personal experience. Those are 2 very different things. You make it sound like a dps-meter is essential for raids, but it most certainly is not. Pay more attention to the screen instead of the overlay and you’ll find the less skilled players are easy to spot. This game never needed dps-meters and it certainly doesn’t need them now, definitely not one that shows other people’s dps and gear.

While you’re technically correct, I find dps meters to be tools of great value. Being able to spot problems in dps or buff coverage, or various other uptimes, can help optimize your play and your group. Just because a tool can be used for toxicity doesn’t mean it is only used for it. Nor does it mean they cause it. Toxicity originate in the players, not their tools. Take away one tool, they’ll find another. It’s just that simple.

but the tool does spur the toxicity more then without one, remove the tool and ppl need to experience a player more direct rather then relying on a tool to tell them what to do.

Remove the tool and people will kick you because you don’t have 25k+ AP

Those people who demand AP will do so before the group contents actually start, which waste you no time.

If a group kick you during the boss fight because they assume your role and expect the dps from it (like they assume you’re a dps spec but you emphasize abit on group buff and support), it’s much worse because it wastes your time already.

I don’t use a dps meter because I am not wanting to risk being banned. But i would like a dps meter like recount in gw2. Sure i’d be low dps, but it would motivate me to get better. If u don’t like dps metters then maybe we need beginner intermediate and advanced modes of each raid. I try to get into raiding but basicly when ur new to raiding ur asking for a carry. Beginer mode raids would be good for casuals to learn the mechanics and decide if raiding is something that interests them to skill up at. I have killed only one boss (to open raid masteries) but i would love casual raiding when the mood stikes me. Then i would maybe see the value of meta if i wanted to do intermediate mode raids.

I’m fine with the use of meters, even if I don’t happen to be using them myself. Never seen a case of someone getting kicked over it either, even if I’ve been in some groups where the total dps from my perspective was rather lacking.

If a person joins a group and cannot pull their own weight dps/buff uptime wise, what right has that person to slow down the other 4/9 or potentially make things fail for them?

I would take it as a hint to improve my playstyle if I got kicked over had a bad dps result that couldn’t be explained through class(like druid) or unfortunate accidents like being downed or dead(though, if I keep dying I expect to be kicked all the same for making the group fail).

From my experience and what I believe, it takes a rather atrocious dps to get kicked from your average fractal pug. And, there is a simple solution to the problem; make your own group advertising that it’s without dps checks and that it’s casual and chill. Find likeminded people instead of expecting others to happily accept underperformance.

Aomine.5012:

Haishao.6851:

sorudo.9054:

Feanor.2358:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

BurningHeavy.7268:

How? Explain how? Without dps meters community perception is all that would matter. There would be nothing but ele’s and buff kittenes. With DPS meters eles doing 8dps will get kicked because they are bad, while guardians doing 20k dps will be kept around, even tho their class isn’t meta at the current time. This does NOTHING but improve the game.

This does not improve the game, it improves your personal experience. Those are 2 very different things. You make it sound like a dps-meter is essential for raids, but it most certainly is not. Pay more attention to the screen instead of the overlay and you’ll find the less skilled players are easy to spot. This game never needed dps-meters and it certainly doesn’t need them now, definitely not one that shows other people’s dps and gear.

While you’re technically correct, I find dps meters to be tools of great value. Being able to spot problems in dps or buff coverage, or various other uptimes, can help optimize your play and your group. Just because a tool can be used for toxicity doesn’t mean it is only used for it. Nor does it mean they cause it. Toxicity originate in the players, not their tools. Take away one tool, they’ll find another. It’s just that simple.

but the tool does spur the toxicity more then without one, remove the tool and ppl need to experience a player more direct rather then relying on a tool to tell them what to do.

Remove the tool and people will kick you because you don’t have 25k+ AP

Those people who demand AP will do so before the group contents actually start, which waste you no time.

If a group kick you during the boss fight because they assume your role and expect the dps from it (like they assume you’re a dps spec but you emphasize abit on group buff and support), it’s much worse because it wastes your time already.

But whose fault is it that said player decides to not take the content seriously enough to actually find the proper builds? His/hers, or the group that they join?

Nightrous.6732:

…Beginer mode raids would be good for casuals to learn the mechanics and decide if raiding is something that interests them to skill up at. I have killed only one boss (to open raid masteries) but i would love casual raiding when the mood stikes me. Then i would maybe see the value of meta if i wanted to do intermediate mode raids.

This is the thing though, people in MMOs (not just GW2) lean on dps meters because of the general lack of feedback the game gives as to what is going wrong with group play. In solo instances it’s all you, in groups though it can be hard to tell where the issue is.

However the use of dps meters to kick someone who presumably has neither agreed to have their dps taken nor aware of what the meter was actually reading is problematic. For all the OP knows the group was after someone who was the top 0.1% because the rest of the group wasn’t quite up to scratch either. Here in lies the trouble. If Anet wants to allow the use of dps meters they really ought to build them into the game outright. Then allow switches in pugs that either the whole group gets the dps meter or no one does.

Lady Lozza.9670:

Nightrous.6732:

…Beginer mode raids would be good for casuals to learn the mechanics and decide if raiding is something that interests them to skill up at. I have killed only one boss (to open raid masteries) but i would love casual raiding when the mood stikes me. Then i would maybe see the value of meta if i wanted to do intermediate mode raids.

This is the thing though, people in MMOs (not just GW2) lean on dps meters because of the general lack of feedback the game gives as to what is going wrong with group play. In solo instances it’s all you, in groups though it can be hard to tell where the issue is.

However the use of dps meters to kick someone who presumably has neither agreed to have their dps taken nor aware of what the meter was actually reading is problematic. For all the OP knows the group was after someone who was the top 0.1% because the rest of the group wasn’t quite up to scratch either. Here in lies the trouble. If Anet wants to allow the use of dps meters they really ought to build them into the game outright. Then allow switches in pugs that either the whole group gets the dps meter or no one does.

I don’t agree with this. Not the idea of Anet building in a dps meter. That’s actually not a bad idea. Especially, if they give us proper combat logs that we can upload to a WorldofLogs type site. But I don’t agree with this whole turn off the meters thing. I like my meter and I should always be able to see my own personal dps at the very least.

Lady Lozza.9670:

Nightrous.6732:

…Beginer mode raids would be good for casuals to learn the mechanics and decide if raiding is something that interests them to skill up at. I have killed only one boss (to open raid masteries) but i would love casual raiding when the mood stikes me. Then i would maybe see the value of meta if i wanted to do intermediate mode raids.

This is the thing though, people in MMOs (not just GW2) lean on dps meters because of the general lack of feedback the game gives as to what is going wrong with group play. In solo instances it’s all you, in groups though it can be hard to tell where the issue is.

However the use of dps meters to kick someone who presumably has neither agreed to have their dps taken nor aware of what the meter was actually reading is problematic. For all the OP knows the group was after someone who was the top 0.1% because the rest of the group wasn’t quite up to scratch either. Here in lies the trouble. If Anet wants to allow the use of dps meters they really ought to build them into the game outright. Then allow switches in pugs that either the whole group gets the dps meter or no one does.

I agree with ANet needing to actually implement an official DPS meter into the game. The problem is the backlash it might cause, imo.

xarallei.4279:

I don’t agree with this. Not the idea of Anet building in a dps meter. That’s actually not a bad idea. Especially, if they give us proper combat logs that we can upload to a WorldofLogs type site. But I don’t agree with this whole turn off the meters thing. I like my meter and I should always be able to see my own personal dps at the very least.

My point regarding the on off switch was specifically aimed at other player dps in a group. Either everyone sees everyone meters or no one sees anything but their own (if they want). That way no one can say “oh you aren’t pulling your weight” because the whole group has access to everyone’s numbers or they don’t have anything but their own.

I don’t personally agree with dps meters. However I understand why they are used. The fact that Anet has now said “go right ahead” indicates to me that they feel they are needed, therefore they ought to be providing them.

Gamers will always find a way of discriminating against other players. However with a tool everyone has access too there is no way of players hiding their own inefficiencies when they start to accuse others of not playing properly. Right now in order to counter these types of issues players have to go out of their way to download a tool that might be currently approved (but could change to being a bannable offense in the future) and might, depending on the tool and site downloaded from, contain malware. Unsurprisingly there are probably many players who would simply give this a miss. Hence my view that if Anet wants dps meters to be ok they need to be providing them.

maddoctor.2738:

Anchoku.8142:

Make grouping automated with no exception. Eliminate statics and kicking. Track player experience per profession for matching. Provide a rating system for competence, courtesy, and quitting.

That’s a horrible idea.
Automated system based on what? How do you count experience per profession?
Based on how many times you run the content in the past?
What kind of purpose does eliminating static groups have? Other than punishing guild groups and groups of friends who want to play together.
If you disallow kicking then you open the flood gates for griefing and trolling. No thanks.
An automated grouping system for PVE will never work and it’s absolutely terrible.

Please read the whole post before replying. There is not that much so it should be quick.

Arenanet is fully capable of automated matching. They can easily create a raid group if there are enough professions and experienced players waiting. Just indicate the wing you want using the build you want and wait. When the group is matched, a pop-up could ask for confirmation similar to Fractals.

Arenanet can track total damage, heals, and mitigated damage, per profession, per account, and add feedback from others about your own performance to determine an overall score. They know what your profession is and what your build is when you are in queue.

Your score could then be used toward a reward track just like in PvP, adjust the amount of loot that drops for you, or simply add modifiers to your luck in that instance or the next one you join.

The feedback portion of your score should be quick, easy, and voluntary.

• People who flame may be singled out for a down-rating by others in your group.
• People who kick others may receive a downgrade by the person kicked
• People who grief, troll, or otherwise give excessive negative feedback and vote opposite to the majority of the group may also be tracked in the servers and receive warnings or suspensions from raiding.
• People with low technical scores may receive reduced rewards and may have to wait longer to be assigned a group sure to win even if one person is less capable.
• People who are polite, knowledgeable, and helpful without kicking or rage-quitting may receive a lot of positive feedback from the group, leading to higher scores and increased rewards.

Fully-automated matching works and either gets rid of toxic players, or trains them to not be toxic. Good, friendly, and patient players should receive faster reward track progress. There are many of those players in GW2 and they should be rewarded for the good work they do supporting pugs, training raids, and making raids fun.

Those raiding strictly for the fastest completion time are just grinders who should get regular rewards for completing a task for a minimum of effort.

Those who make raids unfriendly or are a drag on the group should receive fewer rewards. Internal metrics, combined with negative player feedback, should give lower scores that equate to less loot and slower progression. They can keep practicing to get better, or not, but a scoring system should ensure their reward is appropriately low and the group they are matched with can make up for their deficiencies.

Automated matching can work. This game already does that in WvW and PvP. PvE already does scaling, which is another knob Arenanet has to turn.

Will you lose your static? Yes.
Will you still be able to raid with friends? Maybe, if you all join the queue together and they are on your friend list.
Will you care if you can still raid successfully? You decide.

As a side note, Arenanet should really do more to integrate voice chat applications into the game. If someone pastes a chat channel into the text box, clicking on it with the mouse should launch the appropriate app and connect the channel.

Sure you can have your fully automated system….so long as we can still have a proper lfg to make our own groups with full capabilities to remove players with no penalty (like it is now). And you can have some small reward as encouragement just like WoW has a reward for the dungeon lfg there. People who play harder roles can also have a bit of an extra reward when there is a low amount of particular class roles available (commonly tanks and healers).

Anchoku.8142:

Those raiding strictly for the fastest completion time are just grinders who should get regular rewards for completing a task for a minimum of effort.

What? So hardcore players who have mastered the content should be rewarded less? That’s kind of absurd. And I’m not even a hardcore player.

Anchoku.8142:

… and add feedback from others about your own performance to determine an overall score. .

The feedback portion of your score should be quick, easy, and voluntary.

• People who flame may be singled out for a down-rating by others in your group.
• People who kick others may receive a downgrade by the person kicked
• People who grief, troll, or otherwise give excessive negative feedback and vote opposite to the majority of the group may also be tracked in the servers and receive warnings or suspensions from raiding.
• People with low technical scores may receive reduced rewards and may have to wait longer to be assigned a group sure to win even if one person is less capable.
• People who are polite, knowledgeable, and helpful without kicking or rage-quitting may receive a lot of positive feedback from the group, leading to higher scores and an increased rewards.

Those who make raids unfriendly or are a drag on the group should receive fewer rewards. Internal metrics, combined with negative player feedback, should give lower scores that equate to less loot and slower progression. They can keep practicing to get better, or not, but a scoring system should ensure their reward is appropriately low and the group they are matched with can make up for their deficiencies.

Automated matching can work. This game already does that in WvW and PvP. PvE already does scaling, which is another knob Arenanet has to turn.

Will you lose your static? Yes.
Will you still be able to raid with friends? Maybe, if you all join the queue together.
Will you care if you can still raid successfully? You decide.

I’ve cut the post up so the quote isn’t so long including the items I think are most important to my response.

Firstly I don’t think that statics should be changed at all. As far as I’m concerned if people want to get in a group and do their stuff more power to them, especially if they are keeping their bad attitude from impacting other players. I do however feel that it should be an all or nothing system, not a 8 man static with two pugs for instant.

Secondly I feel player feedback is typically a nightmare scenario. Unless Anet limits how the feedback is given (and even then it’s still likely) players will find a way to abuse it, and abuse other players through it. Hard numbers collected by the server is better and allow for the system to ignore people who are blacklisted so abusive players will never be grouped with those who don’t like their attitude.

Let me explain this with a real world example, many years ago while I was studying my marks were good enough to be recruited as a tutor for students in lower year levels – this included marking papers. Subjects with group components to it had a group feedback section – feedback was anonymous and was used to attribute grades to the individuals in the group. It was very common that I would read things like “xyz was bossy” from three individuals, and then from xyz “other students wouldn’t participate in collation, had to do all the editing myself”.
XYZ may well have been bossy, but it was also likely that the three other group members weren’t pulling their weight. To make things worse it was hard, even impossible to know how much and who was the problem. Even when they started asking students to rate the others in their group. XYZ could get a 1/10 from three members, who rated the others as 10 and XYZ might rate the three members as 1 themselves. The thing with this situation is that it was very common and that both sides can be right. XYZ may have done all the work, and may also have been bossy to the point of being a real pain to work with.

Almost always I had to ignore the “group” component to the marking because I was either getting groups where they all gave each other 10 or groups where one or two members were terrible to work with (usually “bossy”) while those one or two members probably did all the work.

Another point on grouping by metrics though is that players who are continually grouped with low performing players may get stuck in that band, even if they themselves are improving. This is quite common in matchmaking metrics already. Players have to improve a lot more when constantly grouped with under performing players to break out of the “under-performing” tier, than they do when grouped with more averagely skilled players.

Matchmaking in my mind isn’t a bad idea but it absolutely does need to be implemented carefully. And for the record, WvW rewards are more about participation than skill. Trust me when I say you max your participation much faster in a zerg that is moving around taking objectives than you do as a roamer killing small groups say as a 3 on one where skill strongly comes into play at least for the outnumbered player.

Got into a Fractal today, one of my party-mates called out the thief for using horribly optimized gear in T4. Turned out the Thief used the DPS meter as well so their gear was viewable to the other teammate with the DPS meter and they didn’t know you could view others gear with it. Booted them out. (Before you scream, they were wearing soldiers, sentinels and clerics gear. In T4 as a thief.) And refused to ping their gear when they were called out. So yeah DPS meters are pretty cool.

TheShniper.1852:

Yeah you can make the argument that i should play with a static. Which i do usually.

I think you need to up that “usually” to “always” and just leave it at that.

I read the whole thing and it was not bad till you hit this little puppy.

Anchoku.8142:

Will you lose your static? Yes.

and suddenly.. NOPE!

Now, I love to pug, to me the PUG is one of the great parts of an MMO.

But no way could I support removing anyone’s ability to group with friends/family.

Sorry.

Okhu.7948:

Got into a Fractal today, one of my party-mates called out the thief for using horribly optimized gear in T4. Turned out the Thief used the DPS meter as well so their gear was viewable to the other teammate with the DPS meter and they didn’t know you could view others gear with it. Booted them out. (Before you scream, they were wearing soldiers, sentinels and clerics gear. In T4 as a thief.) And refused to ping their gear when they were called out. So yeah DPS meters are pretty cool.

That is the non-compliant version of said meter. You cannot use versions with gear checks. And quite frankly, you don’t need them anyway. That soldiers, clerics, sentinels thief probably had terrible dps so they could have used that as a metric to judge him by.

Aenesthesia.1697:

they even kick you out of the party, they are giving you a chance to improve.

I call BS. They’re not giving you a chance to improve – they’re getting rid of you. Giving someone a chance to improve takes time, and seeing as these people don’t even have the time to help someone through a dungeon, I seriously doubt they’ll take the time to give that person some pointers. If someone performs badly in an encounter I don’t assume they’re only trying to leech – I assume they’re simply not as experienced and I’m going to try and help them get better, because that’s the decent thing to do.
A lot of people seem to forget that there’s another human being behind the screen and helping other people has its own rewards; which people, who only care about pixels obviously are incapable of understanding.

I don’t mind DPS meters if they’re used for improving oneself – I do mind them, if they’re used as an excuse for being a selfish prick.

Feothyr.6072:

Aenesthesia.1697:

they even kick you out of the party, they are giving you a chance to improve.

I call BS. They’re not giving you a chance to improve – they’re getting rid of you.

As someone who around 3-4 years ago got kicked from dungeons over and over for running terrible builds (like a warrior with a rifle and no banners), after certain amount of kicks i got a hint that i was doing something wrong, and the problem was with my performance. So i asked around and after some time i did improve as a player.

Feothyr.6072:

I don’t mind DPS meters if they’re used for improving oneself – I do mind them, if they’re used as an excuse for being a selfish prick.

The selfish prick is the brand new and inexperienced player joining experienced runs to leech and get carried. If you join an experienced run never expect them to teach you anything, that’s unreasonable. All these problems discussed in this thread would be easily solved if those wishing to join an LFG knew how to read, and those making the LFG knew how to type.

sorudo.9054:

Feanor.2358:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

BurningHeavy.7268:

How? Explain how? Without dps meters community perception is all that would matter. There would be nothing but ele’s and buff kittenes. With DPS meters eles doing 8dps will get kicked because they are bad, while guardians doing 20k dps will be kept around, even tho their class isn’t meta at the current time. This does NOTHING but improve the game.

This does not improve the game, it improves your personal experience. Those are 2 very different things. You make it sound like a dps-meter is essential for raids, but it most certainly is not. Pay more attention to the screen instead of the overlay and you’ll find the less skilled players are easy to spot. This game never needed dps-meters and it certainly doesn’t need them now, definitely not one that shows other people’s dps and gear.

While you’re technically correct, I find dps meters to be tools of great value. Being able to spot problems in dps or buff coverage, or various other uptimes, can help optimize your play and your group. Just because a tool can be used for toxicity doesn’t mean it is only used for it. Nor does it mean they cause it. Toxicity originate in the players, not their tools. Take away one tool, they’ll find another. It’s just that simple.

but the tool does spur the toxicity more then without one, remove the tool and ppl need to experience a player more direct rather then relying on a tool to tell them what to do.

Wrong. People like to evaluate fast. Remove the dps meter and they’ll go back to judging you based on your AP and mastery level. Meaning less actual in-game experience with you. Not to mention it will be a lot less relevant.

Anchoku.8142:

Please read the whole post before replying. There is not that much so it should be quick.

I read it and it’s still a horrible idea.

The entire idea of this “overall score” is bad as you cannot quantify player performance in PvE. Feedback from others is an excellent opportunity to grief. It’s terrible to give a score based on what other players say. It’s open to abuse.

Matchmaking in PvP is a lot easier. The metric there is your win-loss performance, there is no such thing in PvE, the loss ratio in PvE content is so low, most players win. Unless they are doing CMs or aren’t very experienced in raiding.

I don’t see a single positive point in your idea.

mbhalo.1547:

As someone who around 3-4 years ago got kicked from dungeons over and over for running terrible builds (like a warrior with a rifle and no banners), after certain amount of kicks i got a hint that i was doing something wrong, and the problem was with my performance. So i asked around and after some time i did improve as a player.

You probably would have improved a lot sooner and a lot quicker, if people would have been upfront with you, instead of just kicking you out, don’t you think?

maddoctor.2738:

The selfish prick is the brand new and inexperienced player joining experienced runs to leech and get carried.

What kind of picture do you have of humankind? Do you always assume the worst?

maddoctor.2738:

If you join an experienced run never expect them to teach you anything, that’s unreasonable.

You’re assuming I’m talking about a run that’s asking for experienced players, which I’m not. I’m talking about a regular, plain, 08/15 run …

you can troll the dps meter guys having full nomads and join high level fractals and tell them youre full zerk.

Feothyr.6072:

What kind of picture do you have of humankind? Do you always assume the worst?

What other reason is there for an inexperienced player to join an experienced run without knowledge of the encounter, or how to play their build properly? That’s just a waste of time, and time is important for all players. Maybe the most important factor.

You’re assuming I’m talking about a run that’s asking for experienced players, which I’m not. I’m talking about a regular, plain, 08/15 run …

What about them? If the run is advertised as “everyone welcome” and they kick people due to their dps then there is something wrong with their brains. Which is why I said the problem would go away when both LFG creators and LFG joiners know how to type and read respectively. If you want an experienced run, say so. If you want an “all welcome” run or a “training run” say so. And those joining should know how to read and join the group appropriate for them.

maddoctor.2738:

What other reason is there for an inexperienced player to join an experienced run without knowledge of the encounter, or how to play their build properly? That’s just a waste of time, and time is important for all players. Maybe the most important factor.

I seriously doubt that there’s anybody out there who joins a group, thinking “Ouh yeah, I’m so gonna leech off of them! They’re gonna carry me all the way, while I eat cookies and laugh at them!”

How is a player supposed to get experience, if he’s never given the opportunity to do so? Yes, he could join a training run (although I’ve never seen a single listing on the LFG tool labelled ‘training run’), but that’s inherently flawed, as runs with inexperienced players are different from normal runs. The best way to learn an encounter is to play it with people who know what they’re doing and who can give the inexperienced player advice on what to do better next time.

Isn’t an MMORPG supposed to be a place where people come together to play together, not exclude each other? To meet new people? Maybe make new friends?

If you want your run to be perfect don’t do PUGs – get a static group, ask friends or guildmates. That way you know what you’re getting yourself into and you’ll have a much nicer time.

maddoctor.2738:

Which is why I said the problem would go away when both LFG creators and LFG joiners know how to type and read respectively.

Agreed. Although I’d argue that always asking for experienced players is a bit short sighted in the long run …

Feothyr.6072:

I seriously doubt that there’s anybody out there who joins a group, thinking “Ouh yeah, I’m so gonna leech off of them! They’re gonna carry me all the way, while I eat cookies and laugh at them!”

More than enough do it. And you said it yourself below… they join the “experienced” groups so the others do the content for them.

How is a player supposed to get experience, if he’s never given the opportunity to do so?

By joining a training run. In case there is no training run available they can always create their own. It works wonders. But expecting an experienced group to take you along for the ride is really selfish. For once think about the experienced players too.

If you want your run to be perfect don’t do PUGs – get a static group, ask friends or guildmates. That way you know what you’re getting yourself into and you’ll have a much nicer time.

If you want to train get a static group, ask friends or guild mates. That way you know what you’re getting yourself into and you’ll have a much nicer time. Leave the PUGs who want to do the content fast and efficient do what they want. It’s their precious time

Agreed. Although I’d argue that always asking for experienced players is a bit short sighted in the long run …

No it’s not. Let the player decide what they want to do with their time. After all it’s their own game time and babysitting new players is not what everyone wants to do while in the game.

BurningHeavy.7268:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Personally when someone uses an add on that won’t affect other players I wouldn’t mind. But this Wow stuff just makes me mad. DPS meters, being kicked from fractals for not doing enough DPS… That’s just horrible.
I hope anet can be stricter with their rules.

Why is it horrible? Do you know the mechanics of high end fractals? Take the last boss of nightmare. if your dps is subpar you WILL wipe the group because you aren’t killing him fast enough. In the past, once the group realized this, anyone NOT running meta class/build would be kicked, because we could only assume THAT person is the reason we are kicked. Ele doing 900dps would be kept around because ele, guardian NOT running dragon hunter would be kicked even though he is pushing out 10k dps. How is that more fair than dps meters seeing the ele doing 900 dps and going oh GOD that’s why we are wiping, dude, wtf are you doing in t4 fractals? Kick. This is the single greatest addition for high end instanced PvE as it allows us to make sure we are kicking the right person. If you’re getting kicked for low dps don’t wine to Anet, get better. Work on the dummy, improve your gear. If you can’t be bothered to do that, don’t do T4 fractals. they aren’t easy anymore.

DPS meters are not supported, by using DPS meters you are hacking the game in a sence. No honestly I do not know the mechanic in the highlevel fractals but also if I did and if I did run them I would have probably know what builds I would use if I where to join an experienced team. Now there are idiots who does not read the LFG text and join even if they do not fit the bill but that is another problem that needs to be adressed without hacking the game.

I am a guildleader and I have had alot of players left and almost left the game becouse DPS-meters and yerks in dungeons, yes- Dungeons! One player said to me that he was kicked becouse he was doing less DPS than everyone else, the dungeon took 11 minutes to do instead of 8 so he got kicked from the team during the next run.

This game is pretty casual in most parts and I think that you BurningHeavy is exaggerating about needing to do enough DPS. Sure maby it wont work if everyone is Cleric or Soldier or something but whith a group with even “roles” i am pretty sure it is managable but maby it wont be done in 3 minutes so you can farm it as fast as possible. If I am wrong then I suggest you start giving anet suggestions how to make the fight about skill and not a race against the clock.

Another thing, out curiosity… Does the DPS meter tell you if the boons and class effects someone shares are counted in to that characters DPS? For example: If someone goes for a more build with more boons to share but does a little less damage, the boons gives everyone a little more damage output and maby a few more blocks? I bet you see the maximum damage of your whole team offcourse but can you see that the near death experience the other guy had would have been a fatal blow if this player didn’t use regen instead of might? Can you see that this player has more skill than any of the other players?

Maby DPS meter makes every run a sure bet but it is still not suported in this game and it is not supposed to be needed to play any part of the game.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Another thing, out curiosity… Does the DPS meter tell you if the boons and class effects someone shares are counted in to that characters DPS? For example: If someone goes for a more build with more boons to share but does a little less damage, the boons gives everyone a little more damage output and maby a few more blocks? I bet you see the maximum damage of your whole team offcourse but can you see that the near death experience the other guy had would have been a fatal blow if this player didn’t use regen instead of might? Can you see that this player has more skill than any of the other players?

DPS meters show buff/boon uptime as well as healing and damage. If you parse them correctly you can know who is doing what.

Myrdreth.6829:

…could someone please explain to me what “meta” means?

When you play an MMO game, your character has attributes that affect its impact on the environment. In other words, more of the Power attribute makes you deal more damage. More of the Vitality attribute gives your character more health. Nothing new I assume.

Knowing how attributes affect your character’s ability to kill things allows you to choose combinations that fit your play style or your class best. If you want to use conditions, you pick gear that provides Condition Damage and Expertise (condition duration). If you want to play a character with burst damage instead, you pick Power and Precision.

Picking attributes that fit your play style is the norm in traditional RPGs, no need to give it a special name. In GW2, many players don’t care about attributes and use mixed gear that, for example, increases condition damage, while the player never uses weapons or skills that deal damage with conditions. Some players are reported to have the Healing Power attribute on classes that are not specialized on healing, but that’s the way they have fun playing.

If you actually pay attention to the attributes and pick those that build upon your class strengths, they call it “meta”.

Personally, I never had to give this a special name in the games I played before GW2, because it was simply what everybody was doing.

This is just a guess, but I think “meta” comes from the idea that your character doesn’t know about attributes, and cannot pick a helm that provides Power over one that gives Expertise. Therefore, calculation and attribute picking takes place outside the game’s world, on a meta level. If that’s where it comes from, I’m not buying it. My character knows exactly what a Rune will do and she’s the one who crafts it and puts it on her armor.