Guild Wars 2

RedZebra.2345:

From the moment a non compliant version is available of a tool, the tool itself is burned. I doubt ANET will ask afterwards if you were a good boy and used the compliant one.

Again, Cleary specifically said that the issue was with a specific developer, not with people using the tool. Either the author makes their tool compliant (and folks continue using it) or, as happened this week, the author doesn’t… and the tool stops working with the “next” patch, in which case its compliance (or lack thereof) is moot.

As players, we don’t have to worry if we’re using a popular DPS meter. We do if we go out of our way to find non-compliant tools. As players, we should encourage the authors of our favorite tools to stay on the “safe” side of the line as much as possible.

We wouldn’t have DPS meters if 3rd party developers didn’t push the boundary of what ANet considers to be acceptable. But once those tools become mainstream, the authors end up with additional responsibilities to their audience.

people need to stop using their crutches!! glad the guy got banned finally and hope the mods lock this topic as well as the one that is posted in the raids forums gets locked too .

besides I got the best dps meter I have ever used or need and can not get banned for using it at all . and if it gets broken then can only blame anet for that .

at least I do not have to worry about hacks via 3rd party tools being add to the game . unlike some of the hacks that was in that one and could be add to it if you know what your doing and know how to do it properly .

I would be shocked if many people knew how to use this properly with out the need of a addon app

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

I would be shocked if many people knew how to use this properly with out the need of a addon app

You do know that the in game combat log doesn’t add up damage right?
It also doesn’t show boon/buff uptime. It’s basically near useless

Delta (creator of arc) was communicating directly with Chris and unlike BG (as much as I love his work), Delta was listening to Chris and complying with his requests. He removed the gearcheck off of arc a long time ago and the only part left was the QoL build templates which was separate from the actual addon. And even that he took down recently in order to confirm with Anet that it’s okay. So no, you are most likely not going to be banned for using arc.

Note Chris in the thread even said “To the developers I am already in dialog with, keep up the good work.”

Bhagawan did not comply and so he was banned unfortunately. He already pulled down the meter I think and it will break when the next patch hits. It’s highly doubtful Anet will ban anyone else at this point.

What would be the point? The meter is dead now anyway and you’d only make a lot of people very angry. What’s done is done. BGDM is gone.

“As players, we should encourage the authors of our favorite tools to stay on the “safe” side of the line as much as possible.”
Can only agree with this.

But what is the safe side? ANET self is checking the boundaries what they should allow.
On one side dps meters are a plus for raids, personal development, etc..
On the other side there’s such a thing as personal privacy. Anet created API keys for this, so people have the choice if they share info.
Arc doesn’t ask if people want to show their personal dps it just does.

maddoctor.2738:

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

I would be shocked if many people knew how to use this properly with out the need of a addon app

You do know that the in game combat log doesn’t add up damage right?
It also doesn’t show boon/buff uptime. It’s basically near useless

Not sure if the guys you responded to was trolling.

Anet has already said group dps checking is fine.

That’s why i said ANET self is checking the boundaries what they should allow.

Well, it’s doubtful they are going to change that feature as it’s important for raiding purposes.

I’m okay with DPS meters.

I’m also okay with watching the DPS or your allies as well.

I’m okay if you want to run a group that blocks other people due to DPS. Its your guild or your party or your squad or whatever, so that’s fine.

I can just go play in some other group.

But if you think its okay to invade people’s privacy, look at their gear, intensely question them on their gear and build, or anything like that, you need to just stop playing. its a game, and these are people, not your playthings.

If you don’t want to carry people through a video game, then don’t act like a child and make other people carry you through life.

Learn respect.

“Yobculture.5786. – it’s just that we need reliable metrics to be able to do raids properly and monitor what is going right/wrong in a particular raid group.”

I left work at work. I’m home and want to play.

YarrCaptainJuan.7248:

“Yobculture.5786. – it’s just that we need reliable metrics to be able to do raids properly and monitor what is going right/wrong in a particular raid group.”

I left work at work. I’m home and want to play.

Then play? You shouldn’t feel obligated to run raids at all, and if you do, then run it with people who are cool doing just a casual run. You have every right to want to run raids how you want to, however that applies to anyone else. That means if someone wants a speed run with a good dps that’s their right. They have no more obligation to carry you than you do treating GW2 like a job..

YarrCaptainJuan.7248:

“Yobculture.5786. – it’s just that we need reliable metrics to be able to do raids properly and monitor what is going right/wrong in a particular raid group.”

I left work at work. I’m home and want to play.

That’s not different from what Yob is wanting to do. Your styles of play might not be compatible, so you probably don’t want to game together.

Why should people have to carry you?

Just think about it, 3 years ago this topic wouldn’t have existed, and ingame it’s way worse.
It’s still a good community, but the introductions of raids cracked a huge rift between different segments of the population, and this is not good on the long run.
The amount of salt on one side, and elitism on the other, is quickly growing to WoW levels, and people who stayed in GW2 due to the community, will leave eventually.

Food for thought.

VaLee.5102:

Just think about it, 3 years ago this topic wouldn’t have existed, and ingame it’s way worse.
It’s still a good community, but the introductions of raids cracked a huge rift between different segments of the population, and this is not good on the long run.
The amount of salt on one side, and elitism on the other, is quickly growing to WoW levels, and people who stayed in GW2 due to the community, will leave eventually.

Food for thought.

This happened before raids, just with speedrunning dungeons, fractals to a lesser extent and pvp. None of this has changed at all since fractals were the “endgame PvE” and speedrunning dungeons was how a lot of people competed. People who say this stuff happen because of raids only do so because they personally don’t like raids. It has nothing to do with objective facts. This game doesn’t have the raiding community to even come close to reaching WoW status. The raids, while harder than normal PvE, really aren’t as hardcore as WoW or other raiding games.

Hannelore.8153:

I’m okay with DPS meters.

I’m also okay with watching the DPS or your allies as well.

I’m okay if you want to run a group that blocks other people due to DPS. Its your guild or your party or your squad or whatever, so that’s fine.

I can just go play in some other group.

But if you think its okay to invade people’s privacy, look at their gear, intensely question them on their gear and build, or anything like that, you need to just stop playing. its a game, and these are people, not your playthings.

If you don’t want to carry people through a video game, then don’t act like a child and make other people carry you through life.

Learn respect.

Upvoted for visibility.

Play how you want. If you want to be elitist, that’s fine. If you want to be a casual, that’s also fine. For you. Don’t expect everyone to accept you. It doesn’t happen in life, it won’t happen in a game.

Some people celebrate the “victory” over dps meters here.

There are millions of people playing GW2 world wide (from 2015: http://fortune.com/2015/11/24/areanet-investing-in-esports/). We can assume that many of those players are professional software developers, I guess it’s even a higher percentage than in the average population. Don’t ask me for a source, but assuming that no developers play GW2 is not realistic either.

Some of these developers are certainly interested in dps meters, and have freetime, just like the creators of those tools we use. Do people really believe there are not more dps meters available? We are not even the biggest market for GW2. My guess is that just the Chinese players can choose between a dozen or more, including gear check and probably a check that tells them if you slept only 3 hours last night and might not be fit for a raid.

Even if arcdps vanished, we would just search for the tools that are created for the other markets and use them. And even if you cannot download the BGDM gear check version anymore, I can promise you that some people get their hands on other tools that do gear checks. The difference now is only that these tools are not as easily accessible for everybody as BGDM was.

If things can be done, there will be people who do them. This has nowhere been more true than in computer games.

DPS meters are a way of filtering out bad players AND giving good players a chance to prove themselves.
If DPS meters weren’t a thing people would still kick you based on other, more flawed, more arbitrary criteria.

I think everyone would prefer a situation where they have a chance over the situation where nobody measures your dps because they’ve kicked you based on AP.

Do you really want to go back to those days? Because honestly -I’ll be glad to do it.

Champ trains were eliminated since they created toxic environments. DPS meters in the same light create a toxic environment on their own more often than not. ANet needs to come out and ban these outright. Personal meters would have been fine but if the data that these tools pull also include data for other players than these need to be blocked or that data needs to be unreadbale by third party software. A lot of people were against raids due to issues like this and this thread re-enforces those concerns. And yes this issue was around before raids as well but was even further reinforced with raids.

I appreciate people wanting to be efficient and not waste time they may hold dear. I too like speed runs at times of fractals. That said I think its an error in thinking to apply your own play bias to pugging. If I pug I don’t expect things of others, if I feel like a group isn’t going to make it adjust or move along and find another.

If a player wants to push their bias on others then they should apply that culling logic to a guild group. The point of guilds is to find people you like to play with and might play in similar fashion. If you want to blame issues on pugs you are just denying that the issue is your own since you choose to go that route.

TheGrimm.5624:

Champ trains were eliminated since they created toxic environments.

Wrong. Champ trains are alive and well, in both CS and FGS. Champ trains were eliminated in starter zones, because excessive farming isn’t something you want to promote to new players. That’s something for the vets. The decision has nothing to do with the supposed “toxic environment”. If you decide to solo a champ on a champ train map, prepare to get flamed, even now. Rightfully so, if I may add.

TheGrimm.5624:

DPS meters in the same light create a toxic environment on their own more often than not.

Wrong. All the examples of supposed toxic behaviour created by dps meters are actually phenomena that have been in the game for ages. Except now they have some valid objective reason. Remove the dps meters, the toxicity will be just the same, except assigned to random other metrics, like AP or mastery level. Again, tools do not create toxicity, players do. And believe me, players are very creative in it. No matter what you do, they’ll find ways to be toxic.

Feanor.2358:

TheGrimm.5624:

Champ trains were eliminated since they created toxic environments.

Wrong. Champ trains are alive and well, in both CS and FGS. Champ trains were eliminated in starter zones, because excessive farming isn’t something you want to promote to new players. That’s something for the vets. The decision has nothing to do with the supposed “toxic environment”. If you decide to solo a champ on a champ train map, prepare to get flamed, even now. Rightfully so, if I may add.

TheGrimm.5624:

DPS meters in the same light create a toxic environment on their own more often than not.

Wrong. All the examples of supposed toxic behaviour created by dps meters are actually phenomena that have been in the game for ages. Except now they have some valid objective reason. Remove the dps meters, the toxicity will be just the same, except assigned to random other metrics, like AP or mastery level. Again, tools do not create toxicity, players do. And believe me, players are very creative in it. No matter what you do, they’ll find ways to be toxic.

There are champ trains that have been removed from the game in the past since they were deemed by ANet for creating negative environments. Denying that is wrong.

Tools that empower players to be kitten to others to me are a bad idea. The fact that this thread was started already proves this was an issue. I can respect that you feel differently, but you have not shown me anything that makes me believe the opposite. Personal meters, fine, group meters, no thanks. If I feel the need to tell someone else how they should play means I should move along unless I want to cut them a check and have them play my way. I didn’t pay for their game nor am I paying them for their time.

TheGrimm.5624:

There are champ trains that have been removed from the game in the past since they were deemed by ANet for creating negative environments. Denying that is wrong.

Then why are there still champ trains?

TheGrimm.5624:

Tools that empower players to be kitten to others to me are a bad idea. The fact that this thread was started already proves this was an issue.

First and foremost, it’s jumping to conclusions to state dps meters are a cause for anything. Again, toxicity existed before dps meters. And it will exist after them, if they become illegal at some point. You’ll have very hard time proving an actual causality between dps meter usage and an act of toxicity. Just because someone had a dps-related issue with another player proves nothing. Because when you’re underperforming, it shows. And the elitists are both good at spotting it and quick to become toxic about it.

Hannelore.8153:

But if you think its okay to invade people’s privacy, look at their gear, intensely question them on their gear and build, or anything like that, you need to just stop playing. its a game, and these are people, not your playthings.

I just want to look at their gear, so that I can figure out what they are wearing. Sometimes I see some pretty nice looking sets and I just want to right-click → inspect to see

Feanor.2358:

First and foremost, it’s jumping to conclusions to state dps meters are a cause for anything. Again, toxicity existed before dps meters. And it will exist after them, if they become illegal at some point. You’ll have very hard time proving an actual causality between dps meter usage and an act of toxicity. Just because someone had a dps-related issue with another player proves nothing. Because when you’re underperforming, it shows. And the elitists are both good at spotting it and quick to become toxic about it.

Why is it people assume others are saying dps meters “cause” toxicity? Obviously players have been toxic with or without them; but the fact that they are tool that can be be used in a toxic manner does exist. They don’t directly cause or support toxicity but they can be used to show “factual” proof that someone is under-preforming so that toxic behavior can be directed at the that player.

Why would anyone have a hard time proving a relationship between the two when you stated “Just because someone had a dps-related issue with another player proves nothing.” How does that prove nothing? One player was using a meter, didn’t like what he saw from another player and created an issue. That is pretty apparent and based on what information is available. The later part of what you said is an assumption.

Please note I am not against DPS meters, I just don’t get why so many people keep saying DPS meters have nothing to do with toxicity. Sure they aren’t the only cause but they definetly can be a source/supporting tool for it. As others have stated many things can cause toxicity we don’t stop using or ban people for choosing to play that way; the DPS meter is no different (as long as it follows the ToU A-net laid out)

Miku.6297:

Feanor.2358:

First and foremost, it’s jumping to conclusions to state dps meters are a cause for anything. Again, toxicity existed before dps meters. And it will exist after them, if they become illegal at some point. You’ll have very hard time proving an actual causality between dps meter usage and an act of toxicity. Just because someone had a dps-related issue with another player proves nothing. Because when you’re underperforming, it shows. And the elitists are both good at spotting it and quick to become toxic about it.

Why is it people assume others are saying dps meters “cause” toxicity? Obviously players have been toxic with or without them; but the fact that they are tool that can be be used in a toxic manner does exist. They don’t directly cause or support toxicity but they can be used to show “factual” proof that someone is under-preforming so that toxic behavior can be directed at the that player.

Why would anyone have a hard time proving a relationship between the two when you stated “Just because someone had a dps-related issue with another player proves nothing.” How does that prove nothing? One player was using a meter, didn’t like what he saw from another player and created an issue. That is pretty apparent and based on what information is available. The later part of what you said is an assumption.

Please note I am not against DPS meters, I just don’t get why so many people keep saying DPS meters have nothing to do with toxicity. Sure they aren’t the only cause but they definetly can be a source/supporting tool for it. As others have stated many things can cause toxicity we don’t stop using or ban people for choosing to play that way; the DPS meter is no different (as long as it follows the ToU A-net laid out)

Because it is a way to justify bad behavior. Just because there can be toxicity doesn’t mean dps meters don’t add on top of that, but admitting that might confront people with their own bad attitude. This entire thread is filled with this kind of justification.

DPS meters are selfish instruments and take away from the community instead of adding to it. On top of that the vast majority is clueless on how to read them properly.

Anzriel.1398:

VaLee.5102:

Just think about it, 3 years ago this topic wouldn’t have existed, and ingame it’s way worse.
It’s still a good community, but the introductions of raids cracked a huge rift between different segments of the population, and this is not good on the long run.
The amount of salt on one side, and elitism on the other, is quickly growing to WoW levels, and people who stayed in GW2 due to the community, will leave eventually.

Food for thought.

This happened before raids, just with speedrunning dungeons, fractals to a lesser extent and pvp. None of this has changed at all since fractals were the “endgame PvE” and speedrunning dungeons was how a lot of people competed.

Well given that when Fractals were the End Game, having enough AR pretty much set if you knew how to play, as it was often taken that if you were smart enough to learn about and get AR, you had a clue. Which is a nice method to use, a mechanic that sets the stage for dividing up people who are vested and those who are not.

Today, as I understand it, we have people using 3rd party software to monitor and spy on other peoples builds and DPS.

So, yes a lot has changed and none of it for the better, since the Arrival of Raids.

But such is what it is, the two choices are, and will remain.. Play it as it is, or move on to something else.

Feanor.2358:

TheGrimm.5624:

There are champ trains that have been removed from the game in the past since they were deemed by ANet for creating negative environments. Denying that is wrong.

Then why are there still champ trains?

TheGrimm.5624:

Tools that empower players to be kitten to others to me are a bad idea. The fact that this thread was started already proves this was an issue.

First and foremost, it’s jumping to conclusions to state dps meters are a cause for anything. Again, toxicity existed before dps meters. And it will exist after them, if they become illegal at some point. You’ll have very hard time proving an actual causality between dps meter usage and an act of toxicity. Just because someone had a dps-related issue with another player proves nothing. Because when you’re underperforming, it shows. And the elitists are both good at spotting it and quick to become toxic about it.

Jump to conclusion?
From this thread alone we can already tell how people who use the dps meter thinks already.

They hate “carrying noobs who don’t perform as efficient as they do, and would like to eliminate whoever not play the way they did to save their precious time”.

I already saw many posts like that from various players here in this very thread.
Reddit have many similar people too.

Feanor.2358:

TheGrimm.5624:

There are champ trains that have been removed from the game in the past since they were deemed by ANet for creating negative environments. Denying that is wrong.

Then why are there still champ trains?

Because not ALL of them were creating a Toxic environment, so the ones that still fostered community were left in.

Feanor.2358:

TheGrimm.5624:

There are champ trains that have been removed from the game in the past since they were deemed by ANet for creating negative environments. Denying that is wrong.

Then why are there still champ trains?

That’s the point, things that have created toxic environments in the past have been removed. ANet is here to have players entertained, when something didn’t pass muster after a while it was adjusted if it continued to provide a negative impact on that entertainment value. Hence why we don’t have some champ trains now that we did in the past. Those not deemed so stayed where others are no more. If you don’t think those were changed due to what it was impacting go back to the threads at the time and look up the Anet posts. In some cases people defended them not to be removed because it populated those zones and made new players think the game was teeming with players where others said the cons outweighed the pros. ANet sided with more cons then pros and a change was made.

Feanor.2358:

First and foremost, it’s jumping to conclusions to state dps meters are a cause for anything. Again, toxicity existed before dps meters. And it will exist after them, if they become illegal at some point. You’ll have very hard time proving an actual causality between dps meter usage and an act of toxicity. Just because someone had a dps-related issue with another player proves nothing. Because when you’re underperforming, it shows. And the elitists are both good at spotting it and quick to become toxic about it.

Agree, people will find a way to be toxic to each other and that’s an ongoing fight. Also agree that when people are under performing you can spot it without a meter. So why need the meter? Again, personal ones can pass muster and I appreciate someone wanting to be effective but as far as proving they can be toxic, again we wouldn’t be in this thread if one hadn’t been abused by a player. Does everyone abuse them, no wouldn’t go that far either.

You want meters, I don’t like group meters. We can have differing opinions. Telling someone how to play to me is out and the potential cons of people abusing a tool outweighs the pros in this case. IMO.

Side note: I didn’t have a problem with the trains that were removed to me it was a good way to help new people level and it could be a fun mini-game to race from boss to boss. And when I first came to game it was a wild sight to see so many people running these events. But its ANet’s game and therefore their call but players should provide feedback.

Feanor.2358:

First and foremost, it’s jumping to conclusions to state dps meters are a cause for anything. Again, toxicity existed before dps meters.

You would be correct, DPS meters do not cause players to be Toxic, they are the byproduct of the community reaching levels of toxicity to which they would believe that it is acceptable to resort to using DPS meters.

So there is correlation, just, in the sense Toxic communities lead to DPS maters.. not the other way around.

So I should just let a longbow “dps” druid/ranger in the party who offers 0 dps and gets carried for basically free loot while everyone else picks up the slack?

I see this THE MOST and I will usually leave the party. It’s a gigantic waste of time. T4 fracs should not take more than 20 mins. Adjust, stop being lazy, or get kicked. You can argue that that is rude, but honestly people coming in with their snowflake builds contributing nothing and getting carried is the problem and rude in itself.

Dextra.8162:

So I should just let a longbow “dps” druid/ranger in the party who offers 0 dps and gets carried for basically free loot while everyone else picks up the slack?

I see this THE MOST and I will usually leave the party. It’s a gigantic waste of time. T4 fracs should not take more than 20 mins. Adjust, stop being lazy, or get kicked. You can argue that that is rude, but honestly people coming in with their snowflake builds contributing nothing and getting carried is the problem and rude in itself.

If the ranger is attacking how is it doing 0 dps? While I agree people looking to be carried isn’t the most enjoyable thing. How ever assuming everyone in a different build from what you consider ideal preforms poorly is rude. It’s about how you present your arguement, removing someone who is just wanting a free ride is one thing, acting like a jerk is another. (refering to the tone of the post with the negative comments and mass exaggeration)

Dextra.8162:

So I should just let a longbow “dps” druid/ranger in the party who offers 0 dps and gets carried for basically free loot while everyone else picks up the slack?

I see this THE MOST and I will usually leave the party. It’s a gigantic waste of time. T4 fracs should not take more than 20 mins. Adjust, stop being lazy, or get kicked. You can argue that that is rude, but honestly people coming in with their snowflake builds contributing nothing and getting carried is the problem and rude in itself.

Thanks for proving my previous point
Yeah, wasting that extra 5 mins of yours is such a sin!
All the Pugs are being carried by you cuz it takes more than 20 mins!

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

First and foremost, it’s jumping to conclusions to state dps meters are a cause for anything. Again, toxicity existed before dps meters.

You would be correct, DPS meters do not cause players to be Toxic, they are the byproduct of the community reaching levels of toxicity to which they would believe that it is acceptable to resort to using DPS meters.

So there is correlation, just, in the sense Toxic communities lead to DPS maters.. not the other way around.

There’s nothing toxic about me not wanting to deal with a knights stat greatsword reaper who doesn’t break cc bars let alone allows trash mobs like in snowblind final boss or dredge/fire elementals to live for so long that your group struggles.

It’s even worse in Cliffside where you’re trying to clear the arms but mobs take so long to die that the veteran cultists tear apart the team because you’re not clearing fast enough.

Not even going to talk about Shattered Observatory or Nightmare fractals.

Miku.6297:

Please note I am not against DPS meters, I just don’t get why so many people keep saying DPS meters have nothing to do with toxicity. Sure they aren’t the only cause but they definetly can be a source/supporting tool for it. As others have stated many things can cause toxicity we don’t stop using or ban people for choosing to play that way; the DPS meter is no different (as long as it follows the ToU A-net laid out)

To be fair, they can also be used to quell toxicity. This is from another game, but I play FFXIV frequently as well. Parsers are banned by the ToS, but are used by the community. Basically there is a don’t talk about it rule, where if you say anything about the parser in chat, you can be reported/banned.

I’ve seen several times when I have my parser open that the person with the lowest DPS will be the one yelling at everyone else. This person will just start attacking the lowest DPS job decided by the Meta, despite that player out DPSing him. I’d love to charge in and say, “you’re actually the lowest DPS”, but I can’t due to the ToS. If this person could see the parser, they wouldn’t (presumably) have attacked the other player in the first place.

I mean, you just proved my point too.

And 5 mins? More like another 20-30 mins if the group comp is just awful.

Listen, when I do T4’s I make sure I’m well prepared. I don’t want to waste peoples time because that is rude. Why is that such a hard concept for people to grasp? People are just plain lazy and don’t want to put any effort into anything and just expect people to deal with their selfish entitled behavior.

It’s like if you slept your way through college and they kick you out you’ll say WOW ROOOOOD? Why do people expect to get rewarded for sloppy inconsiderate behavior?

Like I said, I rarely kick someone, I’ll just leave and get a different group it’s that simple.

Jemmi.6058:

To be fair, they can also be used to quell toxicity. This is from another game, but I play FFXIV frequently as well. Parsers are banned by the ToS, but are used by the community. Basically there is a don’t talk about it rule, where if you say anything about the parser in chat, you can be reported/banned.

I’ve seen several times when I have my parser open that the person with the lowest DPS will be the one yelling at everyone else. This person will just start attacking the lowest DPS job decided by the Meta, despite that player out DPSing him. I’d love to charge in and say, “you’re actually the lowest DPS”, but I can’t due to the ToS. If this person could see the parser, they wouldn’t (presumably) have attacked the other player in the first place.

That case is an assumption so it’s hard to say, you could just as easily say he may have attacked worse in an effort to miss direct or re direct attention from himself to someone else. How ever any possibility is just a guess. I think a dps meter “qwelling” toxicity would be a bit rarer, but even in GW2 it would be possible, all that toxicity directed at non meta-conformed builds that actually preform just fine might be avoided.

Dextra.8162:

It’s like if you slept your way through college and they kick you out you’ll say WOW ROOOOOD? Why do people expect to get rewarded for sloppy inconsiderate behavior?

Pretty sure a game and your college courses are different, You know exactly what is expected of you. When joining a group not every T4 frac has “meta build or preformance check” in their listing

Miku.6297:

Jemmi.6058:

To be fair, they can also be used to quell toxicity. This is from another game, but I play FFXIV frequently as well. Parsers are banned by the ToS, but are used by the community. Basically there is a don’t talk about it rule, where if you say anything about the parser in chat, you can be reported/banned.

I’ve seen several times when I have my parser open that the person with the lowest DPS will be the one yelling at everyone else. This person will just start attacking the lowest DPS job decided by the Meta, despite that player out DPSing him. I’d love to charge in and say, “you’re actually the lowest DPS”, but I can’t due to the ToS. If this person could see the parser, they wouldn’t (presumably) have attacked the other player in the first place.

That case is an assumption so it’s hard to say, you could just as easily say he may have attacked worse in an effort to miss direct or re direct attention from himself to someone else. How ever any possibility is just a guess. I think a dps meter “qwelling” toxicity would be a bit rarer, but even in GW2 it would be possible, all that toxicity directed at non meta-conformed builds that actually preform just fine might be avoided.

Indeed, as you say, it’s just an assumption. I think that most arguments that suggest the effects of parsers on toxicity are rooted on many assumptions, though.

At the very least, if parsers were allowed, I could have spoken up in defense of the player.

I have less experience in GW2, unfortunately (I just returned after a lengthy break), but in my experience in other games, the better players tend to be less toxic. Usually, the toxic players are good enough to enter difficult content, but are on the poorer end of players who do so.

I think it has to do with a relation between being (almost) good enough to do content, but then failing at said content due to their own failings. They then project those failings on other players.

There are also studies that link aggressive behaviour to frustration in video games. It could be that these players who continue to fail at the content become frustrated -> become aggressive -> become toxic over time.

Aomine.5012:

Feanor.2358:

TheGrimm.5624:

There are champ trains that have been removed from the game in the past since they were deemed by ANet for creating negative environments. Denying that is wrong.

Then why are there still champ trains?

TheGrimm.5624:

Tools that empower players to be kitten to others to me are a bad idea. The fact that this thread was started already proves this was an issue.

First and foremost, it’s jumping to conclusions to state dps meters are a cause for anything. Again, toxicity existed before dps meters. And it will exist after them, if they become illegal at some point. You’ll have very hard time proving an actual causality between dps meter usage and an act of toxicity. Just because someone had a dps-related issue with another player proves nothing. Because when you’re underperforming, it shows. And the elitists are both good at spotting it and quick to become toxic about it.

Jump to conclusion?
From this thread alone we can already tell how people who use the dps meter thinks already.

They hate “carrying noobs who don’t perform as efficient as they do, and would like to eliminate whoever not play the way they did to save their precious time”.

I already saw many posts like that from various players here in this very thread.
Reddit have many similar people too.

Just like you like to run in casual pugs and it’s in your right to do so,other players like to run in more efficient pugs and not spend 40 min to clear a fractal that would otherwise take 15 minutes,and it’s in their right to do so.
What you propose is the mandatory imposing of your play style,because that makes you feel more comfortable,disregarding other players’ preferences.
So you don’t care about what your contribution to the party really is,but that other players won’t be able to measure it.

Besides that,I’ve read the various relevant threads in Reddit and here and all I can say is that Anet’s wording regarding to the matter is vague to say the least.
The truth of the fact is that GW2 still lacks basic UI and QoL functionalities that are very much wanted and needed by the players.
Why don’t they build a “legal” DPS meter and provide it to us,since they are so careful with their words in order to retain the right to ban accounts any time they feel like it?
Or have a page in their site where we can see which add on(God forbid) is allowed and which one is not?
If they see the need for such tools,but don’t provide clear solutions for the players,that’s on them not on the community that attempts to provide the basics for an MMO in 2017.

Zenith.7301:

There’s nothing toxic about me not wanting to deal with a knights stat greatsword reaper who doesn’t break cc bars let alone allows trash mobs like in snowblind final boss or dredge/fire elementals to live for so long that your group struggles.

It’s even worse in Cliffside where you’re trying to clear the arms but mobs take so long to die that the veteran cultists tear apart the team because you’re not clearing fast enough.

Not even going to talk about Shattered Observatory or Nightmare fractals.

There are still a lot of people that still don’t get breakbars, a bit surprising at times actually. Stopped to explain them to a player the other day, but they did say in the end they had been gone a long time so that made sense.

This isn’t about meters though based on your statement. Your issue is DPS versus defense. Having to stop and rez people that dropped because they aren’t in proper gear irks on some people as well. Dead peeps do no deeps. Again different mindsets, your planning on killing them faster than they kill you. Did you advertise your group as full zerk or condi?

One day I would like to see ANet change the aggro logic to target squishiest first and go from there. Paper builds are awesome for those that fit their play style, but some people shouldn’t be based on the number of times you have to rez them.

But there are strong feeling on that on both sides and this is about meters so will leave that alone from there.

Jemmi.6058:

Indeed, as you say, it’s just an assumption. I think that most arguments that suggest the effects of parsers on toxicity are rooted on many assumptions, though.

At the very least, if parsers were allowed, I could have spoken up in defense of the player.

I have less experience in GW2, unfortunately (I just returned after a lengthy break), but in my experience in other games, the better players tend to be less toxic. Usually, the toxic players are good enough to enter difficult content, but are on the poorer end of players who do so.

I think it has to do with a relation between being (almost) good enough to do content, but then failing at said content due to their own failings. They then project those failings on other players.

There are also studies that link aggressive behaviour to frustration in video games. It could be that these players who continue to fail at the content become frustrated -> become aggressive -> become toxic over time.

They can be used for a positive sense and your example is a good one. It just comes down to how often for good versus ill and as stated above there is no good way to measure this if used for one or the other.

Also agree if ANet does want one in game, they should build ones themselves to prevent different people from coming up with different numbers. We already have examples of this in the PvP aftermatch scoreboard so there is some architecture in place if there was more of a demand for this. I could see something like this in Fractals/Raid/Dungeons. People could share if they want to this way. Now I know this doesn’t address it before spending time but it might be a middle group especially if it tallies along the way and doesn’t add lag. Never want to add more purposed in game latency to things for the sake of someone chasing numbers though.

You don’t need dps meter or a gear check tool to know what other people run and how much they are contribute btw. Party window and player character itself give away plenty of information and if that is not enough you can just look at the rotation and what skills player uses.

One day I would like to see ANet change the aggro logic to target squishiest first and go from there.

It feels like it is already the case in open world and some older fractals I get boss hate like 80% of the time on my ele.

Aenaos.8160:

Aomine.5012:

Feanor.2358:

TheGrimm.5624:

There are champ trains that have been removed from the game in the past since they were deemed by ANet for creating negative environments. Denying that is wrong.

Then why are there still champ trains?

TheGrimm.5624:

Tools that empower players to be kitten to others to me are a bad idea. The fact that this thread was started already proves this was an issue.

First and foremost, it’s jumping to conclusions to state dps meters are a cause for anything. Again, toxicity existed before dps meters. And it will exist after them, if they become illegal at some point. You’ll have very hard time proving an actual causality between dps meter usage and an act of toxicity. Just because someone had a dps-related issue with another player proves nothing. Because when you’re underperforming, it shows. And the elitists are both good at spotting it and quick to become toxic about it.

Jump to conclusion?
From this thread alone we can already tell how people who use the dps meter thinks already.

They hate “carrying noobs who don’t perform as efficient as they do, and would like to eliminate whoever not play the way they did to save their precious time”.

I already saw many posts like that from various players here in this very thread.
Reddit have many similar people too.

Just like you like to run in casual pugs and it’s in your right to do so,other players like to run in more efficient pugs and not spend 40 min to clear a fractal that would otherwise take 15 minutes,and it’s in their right to do so.
What you propose is the mandatory imposing of your play style,because that makes you feel more comfortable,disregarding other players’ preferences.
So you don’t care about what your contribution to the party really is,but that other players won’t be able to measure it.

Besides that,I’ve read the various relevant threads in Reddit and here and all I can say is that Anet’s wording regarding to the matter is vague to say the least.
The truth of the fact is that GW2 still lacks basic UI and QoL functionalities that are very much wanted and needed by the players.
Why don’t they build a “legal” DPS meter and provide it to us,since they are so careful with their words in order to retain the right to ban accounts any time they feel like it?
Or have a page in their site where we can see which add on(God forbid) is allowed and which one is not?
If they see the need for such tools,but don’t provide clear solutions for the players,that’s on them not on the community that attempts to provide the basics for an MMO in 2017.

Lol, I’m running Monk rune and sigil of concentration for my fractal Druid, and ofc I’d have lower dps. I put effort into gearing, yet people are going to accuse me for not contributing enough because dps meter says so despite getting all the permanent boons uptime (protection/ fury/ might/swiftness/regen)and dps buff and heal and cc?

This is not an organized composition, so I can’t run the highest dps possible and still maintain a successful group layout, so I try to be more supportive and sacrifice some of my dps so the team can be more well balanced despite the composition, yet people are going to use dps meter to accuse my performance and said they’re carrying me?

It’s closest, rapid hits and dps for a lot of mobs in fracs. I have aggro almost always on my condi daredevil. It’s annoying. u.u

Aomine.5012:

Lol, I’m running Monk rune and sigil of concentration for my fractal Druid, and ofc I’d have lower dps. I put effort into gearing, yet people are going to accuse me for not contributing enough because dps meter says so despite getting all the permanent boons uptime (protection/ fury/ might/swiftness/regen)and dps buff and heal and cc?

This is not an organized composition, so I can’t run the highest dps possible and still maintain a successful group layout, so I try to be more supportive and sacrifice some of my dps so the team can be more well balanced despite the composition, yet people are going to use dps meter to accuse my performance and said they’re carrying me?

No, healing is fine. Anyone with a brain will notice you’re healing and leave you be, assuming you are a good healer. But if you’re coming in T4’s with your longbow sword/dagger valk armor and claiming you’re dps? That’s when there is a major problem.

Just like Chrono is fine as well.

Both low dps, but you contribute by buffing and support.

Zenith.7301:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

First and foremost, it’s jumping to conclusions to state dps meters are a cause for anything. Again, toxicity existed before dps meters.

You would be correct, DPS meters do not cause players to be Toxic, they are the byproduct of the community reaching levels of toxicity to which they would believe that it is acceptable to resort to using DPS meters.

So there is correlation, just, in the sense Toxic communities lead to DPS maters.. not the other way around.

There’s nothing toxic about me not wanting to deal with a knights stat greatsword reaper who doesn’t break cc bars let alone allows trash mobs like in snowblind final boss or dredge/fire elementals to live for so long that your group struggles.

It’s even worse in Cliffside where you’re trying to clear the arms but mobs take so long to die that the veteran cultists tear apart the team because you’re not clearing fast enough.

Not even going to talk about Shattered Observatory or Nightmare fractals.

Before I left I used to love me some daily fractals, now I am not that serious, so I mainly stayed in the T2/T3 range, with the sometimes doing T1 for giggles if fiend/guild mate didn’t have enough AR.

Now, In all my time, I never saw a ‘goof around’ or “test” build running in anything above T1, (yah T1 is always rife with flavor builds), now to be fair, I would come across a few outdated meta’s or people that didn’t want to elite spec, but they were always rocking a tried and dependable build.

Now, I don’t know what kind of people you attract, but I am not sane, and I would just take anyone that had enough AR, and say things like "Everyone Welcome, 70 AR) (I would say 70 AR, so we could all do any T2 fractal that came up on the daily, it was always safer that way)

Considering that it takes full ascended to get enough AR to even have a chance to run T4 (or amazing twitch skill for some fractals), I have no idea how you attract people who put that kind of investment into what would be a poorly done builds. Might be an issue among your social circles to be able to waste that kind of resources on flavor and test builds.

But as for me personally, Never seen this, and truth be told, it sounds more like a fable that gets perpetuated to justify being toxic then it has anything to do with the reality of the game.

I can see this being an issue in Raids as they have no hard Check like AR, so anyone can just show up with any build, but again, that would be a problem that arose from raids, and nothing to do with fractals.

TheGrimm.5624:

Zenith.7301:

There’s nothing toxic about me not wanting to deal with a knights stat greatsword reaper who doesn’t break cc bars let alone allows trash mobs like in snowblind final boss or dredge/fire elementals to live for so long that your group struggles.

It’s even worse in Cliffside where you’re trying to clear the arms but mobs take so long to die that the veteran cultists tear apart the team because you’re not clearing fast enough.

Not even going to talk about Shattered Observatory or Nightmare fractals.

There are still a lot of people that still don’t get breakbars, a bit surprising at times actually. Stopped to explain them to a player the other day, but they did say in the end they had been gone a long time so that made sense.

This isn’t about meters though based on your statement. Your issue is DPS versus defense. Having to stop and rez people that dropped because they aren’t in proper gear irks on some people as well. Dead peeps do no deeps. Again different mindsets, your planning on killing them faster than they kill you. Did you advertise your group as full zerk or condi?

One day I would like to see ANet change the aggro logic to target squishiest first and go from there. Paper builds are awesome for those that fit their play style, but some people shouldn’t be based on the number of times you have to rez them.

But there are strong feeling on that on both sides and this is about meters so will leave that alone from there.

No. There is no outlasting PvE mobs with 10 times your HP that autoattack you for 7-10k damage with defensive gear.

You wear defensive gear, you screw the group over by allowing those mobs to last longer and melt.

This game is not a trinity game. You don’t get higher healing per second to counter the sustained damage of mobs.

It’s why you maximize DPS. So you kill them in the span oc cc and blinds before you run out of them.

Selfish kittens who don’t care about helping the group because they want to play how they want should go play open world and spare people the insult of having to struggle to carry them and making their usual fractal of 15 minutes take 10-15 minutes extra.

This is not WoW where you with your 20 sec cd heal skill can outheal all the incoming damage indefinitely.

PvE veteran mobs on higher fractals will win the outlast game 100% of the time.

Toughness and vitality are useless when the best forms of mitigation are blinds, CC and killing mobs quickly while they’re disabled.

The difference with your toughness gear is you take 20-25% less damage but do half the damage in return because you give up way more offense than what you gain defensively.

Congrats, the mob that could 2-shot you now 3-shot you on toughness gear and you now take 1.5x as long to kill it.

STIHL.2489:

Now, In all my time, I never saw a ‘goof around’ or “test” build running in anything above T1

Go pugging T4 fractals for a while and tell me what you’ve seen. There’s literally everything around there – longbow rangers (has that ever been more than a bearbow joke?) and guards, staff guards, pure shortbow thieves, staff necros, all those greatsword mesmers and I don’t know what else. I don’t need a dps meter to tell me that they are bad, but I don’t want to know what remains hidden behind seemingly reasonable gear choices. When I do as much damage as the other four combined (yes, I’ve seen that happen), a lot of things are wrong.

STIHL.2489:

Considering that it takes full ascended to get enough AR to even have a chance to run T4 (or amazing twitch skill for some fractals), I have no idea how you attract people who put that kind of investment into what would be a poorly done builds. Might be an issue among your social circles to be able to waste that kind of resources on flavor and test builds.

It is not that impressive now. They added a lot of different and easy ways to get ascended gear and AR in the last few months. It is not that rare to meet someone with 150 AR and have absolutely no idea how fractals work.