I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
DPS meter really?
So today I have been kicked out of a fractal party cause my dps was not maked out, they confirm using dps meter. So now people can use dps meter? So arenanet you change your mind? Can I ask a refund of my entire account cause I clearly remember back a couple year ago dps meter was illegal and thats was one of the reason I started playing this game. To avoid kittens players. If I recall the user agreement speak of this? Did anet change the user agreement without notice or I miss something?
One problem with DPS meters is that after awhile it can be all you see. Telling someone their DPS “sucks” for example does nothing to help someone get better. They should at most be utilized in groups that have an understanding going in, and where all have the same goal to maximize, and then only as a challenge once everyone in group has mastery over mechanics.
But hey , most don’t say anything b4 kicking someone, so props to the dude for saying anything. That’s something I guess.
Wow, so many posts to +1 today. Good job forum!
So today I have been kicked out of a fractal party cause my dps was not maked out, they confirm using dps meter. So now people can use dps meter? So arenanet you change your mind? Can I ask a refund of my entire account cause I clearly remember back a couple year ago dps meter was illegal and thats was one of the reason I started playing this game. To avoid kittens players. If I recall the user agreement speak of this? Did anet change the user agreement without notice or I miss something?
One problem with DPS meters is that after awhile it can be all you see. Telling someone their DPS “sucks” for example does nothing to help someone get better. They should at most be utilized in groups that have an understanding going in, and where all have the same goal to maximize, and then only as a challenge once everyone in group has mastery over mechanics.
But hey , most don’t say anything b4 kicking someone, so props to the dude for saying anything. That’s something I guess.
Also, DPS far from tells the whole story. For CM100, for example, a meter would clock me as having sub-par DPS on Arkk on my guardian, but that is because I save my full burst for the anomalies that spawn and spam aegis via Retreat. Or it would have me at low DPS on my necromancer, mostly because I would take corrosive poison cloud and epidemic to handle the red marbles and anomalies instead of taking max DPS skills. If the run should fail, the group would look at me as the weak link in spite of providing several utilities that greatly increase our chances of success.
It is one of the reasons why I don’t stress DPS so much. If the options are open I will go for max deeps, but I’d much rather take the useful utility over the minor damage buff. Bane signet may increase my personal damage by 6%, but Retreat saves lives.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
Oh please. Joining your group is not a reward. Not only is the quality to the group irrelevant to how elitist the players feel, but groups do not have preliminary trials before accepting others into their ranks. They simply expect you to perform, regardless of their own skill. You are “rewarded” for nothing, and punished for everything.
Joining a group that clears T4s in 20 minutes is a reward compared to joining a group that takes an hour.
Joining a raid group that fully clears in 2-2.5 hours instead of 6-7 per week is a reward. You might not see it but you are gaining something with a lot less effort – in a sense you’re getting a “discount” on time. Which in itself is to your benefit.
Good groups perform well and expect you to do the same.
It has been my experience that the groups who demand the most performance out of their players are often the most terrible.
This as far as I’ve seen is false. Most groups that have demanded good play practices from me ( proper gear, proper rotations, good knowledge of hard content) have been very good groups that I’ve had a good experience playing with.
Perhaps you’re not able to find the right groups?
They get frustrated from their failures (both in game and IRL), and become gameplay fascists as a response. They attempt to dictate every little thing in their lives in an attempt to counteract their impotence, but this doesn’t make them better players. It just makes them insufferable. Likewise, some of the best groups that I’ve been on are chill. I got the Be Dynamic achievement on a team that didn’t even try for the meta comp. No druid healer, no CPS warrior, and the only reason the team had a support chrono was because I brought it.
I think you’re falling into the US-centric mindset of throwing the “fascist” term around too easily. It has a definition – it does not apply here.
Personally I get most frustrated when encountering players that waste my time. You might think that’s “IRL” or “in-game failure” but honestly I can’t stand having to pick someone up off the floor 24/7 or having to tell them what to do on content that has been out for years.
Yes there are chill groups out there that will carry you, even if you’re non-meta – but that doesn’t mean all good groups are supposed to accept you just because some of them did.
It is fair to them. It is called tolerance. First it recognizes that people are people and they have feelings.
I’m going to have to stop you right here.
First and foremost it is not fair to them that you gain from their good performance while not being able to provide the same. It’s unfair – you get more off them then you give in return. Nobody can call that fair.
Second of all you have feelings – sure – (although personally I don’t particularly care about them nor am I obligated to do so) there’s the issue of their feelings as well.
You have feelings that get hurt if you get kicked or told you’re bad?
Well guess what – I have feelings that get hurt and a play experience that is ruined if I have to play with a bad player that’s not bothering to pull his weight and wants to leech off my run.
When did your feelings become more important than mine?
The answer ( for me at least) is simple: never – because I’m me and to myself I matter more than you do.
Second, it recognizes that there are a myriad of reasons why even the most pretentious players will fall by the wayside in performance.
Again I’m not sure where in this game’s TOS it says that I’m required to take into account your entire real-life baggage, stress or issues.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
With those two things recognized, it postulates the following: forgiving bad play fosters a positive community that will, in turn, forgive your bad play.
Except I’m perfectly fine with being kicked and excluded if I’m performing poorly.
If I tackle content seriously with a serious group that’s good and does things well – I try to do as well as everybody else.
I’ve been in this situation a few times – where due to lack of skill or experience I was clearly under performing compared to the others in the group and while they did not kick me I dropped out myself because weighing people down is not something that’s right to do. I came back at it later when I was more on-point.
Sometimes I’m tired – so I don’t play hard content because I know I won’t perform to the standards of a good team.
If you are tolerant of the failures of others, then others will be tolerant of your failure. And you will fail eventually. It is a two-way street, where if I am forgiven then I am expected to forgive.
It is a two-way street but unlike you I am not afraid of being called out on failure and suffering the consequences of my actions or performance. It’s called being responsible for yourself.
Your view on this is warped. Other players do not take from you by joining your party, for there is no debt that random people are expected to fill.
If someone slows my run down and makes me waste 10-15 minutes – then yes – there is a debt. They take from me directly – they sap and ruin my enjoyment of the game and waste my time. I like neither of those things.
Kicking a player is the worst way to solve an interpersonal problem. No negotiation, no forgiveness, no instruction. It breeds hostility and doesn’t fix the long term issues.
And here’s one of the problems – from what I gather you think everything is an interpersonal problem while in most cases it is not.
If we’re pugging – I don’t know you and you don’t know me. I don’t need you as a person – I need someone to execute certain mechanics ( even a good enough NPC – like we had in GW1- would do).
If I kick you for poor performance ( or you me) I don’t do it as a personal or inter-personal issue because honestly we’re not even close to being on that level – I do it because you are not performing a role that I need filled.
No negotiation, no forgiveness, no instruction. It breeds hostility and doesn’t fix the long term issues.
No amount of negotiation or forgiveness will teach you core mechanics or give you the proper gear.
I’m not the game’s tutorial system – I’m not here to instruct you ( especially since all hard content is incredibly old).
Again – don’t make this personal because it suits your narrative – it is not personal. I have no interest in 90% of the people I meet in pugs as persons.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
So today I have been kicked out of a fractal party cause my dps was not maked out, they confirm using dps meter. So now people can use dps meter? So arenanet you change your mind? Can I ask a refund of my entire account cause I clearly remember back a couple year ago dps meter was illegal and thats was one of the reason I started playing this game. To avoid kittens players. If I recall the user agreement speak of this? Did anet change the user agreement without notice or I miss something?
One problem with DPS meters is that after awhile it can be all you see. Telling someone their DPS “sucks” for example does nothing to help someone get better. They should at most be utilized in groups that have an understanding going in, and where all have the same goal to maximize, and then only as a challenge once everyone in group has mastery over mechanics.
But hey , most don’t say anything b4 kicking someone, so props to the dude for saying anything. That’s something I guess.
Also, DPS far from tells the whole story. For CM100, for example, a meter would clock me as having sub-par DPS on Arkk on my guardian, but that is because I save my full burst for the anomalies that spawn and spam aegis via Retreat. Or it would have me at low DPS on my necromancer, mostly because I would take corrosive poison cloud and epidemic to handle the red marbles and anomalies instead of taking max DPS skills. If the run should fail, the group would look at me as the weak link in spite of providing several utilities that greatly increase our chances of success.
It is one of the reasons why I don’t stress DPS so much. If the options are open I will go for max deeps, but I’d much rather take the useful utility over the minor damage buff. Bane signet may increase my personal damage by 6%, but Retreat saves lives.
What you’re stating is absurd.
You’re saying people will kick you because of low dps while you’re sacrificing your dps to take the burden off mechanics.
Honestly no good group will do this.
Do you do raids? Do you know what Chrono DPS is in raids? If what you’re saying is true every elitist-raid group would be unable to finish clearing raids because they’d be kicking their chronos instantly.
It’s not just about DPS – it’s about mechanics also.
You can tank or heal in raids and get kicked because you’re not doing that job well.
DPS is one mechanic that people get kicked for – but to make this claim that you’re getting kicked for low dps while you’re doing another critical job means you’re either dishonest or unable to figure out which groups are actually good.
In the second case your issue is not dps meters but the quality of the people you’ve associated with and no removal of dps meters will change that.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
3 Posts in a row all deserving a +1000. Thanks Harper.
It’s always funny to see posts by people who consider feelings, then move on to not consider the feelings of all sides involved.
Or talking about fairness and saying what is unfair for one side but not taking the time to consider what is unfair or fair for the other one.
It would be awesome to consider all sides of an equation when posting and not staying on one of them and ignoring the others.
Nope elitist will never love you, its not a pleasure to oblige people who suck, unless you actually know that person and have a reason to invest your time into teaching them. No players don’t have to care about anyone else at all.
No you don’t get to join any group you like because you want to. No you don’t get to run any spec you want to in a organized setting which is why it god kitten organized. No you don’t get to run the healing necro or the condition mesmers because you like the build there’s something for that its called almost the rest of GW2 except for raids and sPvP.
None of you have the right to get mad at any party who kicks you for what ever reason what so ever if the party agree’s your being kicked because your character name is Jill Livingston that’s that its a vote. Stop trying to force people to play with you regardless of circumstances.
Bad players ruin the fun for good players in all game modes this thread is filled with i don’t care about the other 4 people they have to cater to my needs. Screw that your owed nothing at all in a party setting YOU ARE the one who has to work with everyone else ITS NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND
. Geez in what world can some random can come in a party and say alright guys this is how were gonna run this really?
These forums are a joke its not for opinions or debate its just a safe place for people to cry at.
(edited by Genesis.5169)
IMO, dps meters are not a problem but people do not have a right to use them, either, we have permission.
Please remember that we have no “rights” in this game. NCSOFT and Arenanet grants us temporary, limited licenses on its own terms, which we agree to. We do not own the game on our computers. We do not own individually-priced content like skins purchased through the gem store. We do not even own gems purchased with real money. Read the dark gray banner at the bottom of this forum page for a reminder on rights.
Currently, Guild Wars 2 allows players choice in how we group for raids and other content. This is not a “right.”
We do have permission to join raids, provided we are properly licensed to do so; i.e., purchased a license to Heart of Thorns. That license does not distinguish between players with different goals, preferences, emotional maturity, or tolerance levels. The abilities to exclude players from a group or kick players are tools provided by Arenanet.
Remember that the tool to “kick” another player is primarily to remove those who have left the instance, voluntarily or DC’d, or are otherwise unresponsive so the slot can be filled by another player and the content can be completed. Use of the tools for grouping and kicking is not a right but a privilege subject to change at any time without the players’ permission.
Therefore, next time anyone uses the grouping tools for any reason, stop for a moment to reflect on whether you used them as the developers intended. If the tools are used in unintended ways that Arenanet determines negatively impacts their game, the tool may be changed or removed from the game or, perhaps, only from raids. Individual users of the tool may have licenses pulled or restricted, too, just like those determined to be botting or AFK farming who may have been reported using another tool people should remember exists.
We, the player base, have permission to form groups for “speed runs”, to “min-max” builds, to use “compliant dps meters”, and to “grind for loot” but we do not have a right to do so or a right to prevent or deter other players from playing how they want or how they can. If raiding becomes too toxic an environment for some players or too lucrative a loot farm for others such that the experience falls short of its intent, Arenanet has the right change that formula.
Please also remember that Arenanet can track how many times a player is kicked from a group as well as how many times a player votes to kick others. Use the tool wisely and within Arenanet’s intended scope.
Arenanet can review everyone’s posts here on the forum, too. Posts filled with vitriol, arrogance, spelling errors, and horrible grammar mark the author as uneducated, immature, inconsiderate, and unwilling to put thought or effort into her or his work. I suggest keeping that in mind.
(edited by Anchoku.8142)
So you just want people to be kicked nicely.
I have plenty i want to say but none constructive.Ill just say to my fellow players who run meta parties and make organized groups, when you kick some one don’t say why just remove them this way no one can say you were rude.
I said I had no issue with people removing others, as it does happen when performance becomes an issue. Obviously there is no “nice” way to remove someone. However saying something polite, or saying nothing at all is far better then being insulting or rude.
Like I said in my original post. Removing someone is fine; not saying anything is fine, but the person may send a pm and ask why. Which is understandable, it could also lead to the numerous name and shame threads we have seen about “kicked for no reason by x” appear and shortly get locked on the forums.
*referencing my last post *
Well, I suppose it was too good to last…
DPS meters is the epitomy of mmo elitism. I could understand MAYBE if organised raid groups would use one to weed out freeloaders who try to sneak in with masterwork and rare gear(yes i have seen those when i used to raid) but a lot of people are using them in fractals and even advertise they have them and will kick you if you dont perform well. Here let me say where dps meters can go wrong. A lot of times when i am fighting a boss as a warrior in melee range i happen to get hit and when i am low on hp and my healing skill in on cd i tend to use longbow and stay in a safe distance for my healing to come back,otherwise i run the risk of dying and being dead is way more useless than losing some dps because i use a secondary weapon to stay alive. Sometimes dps drops because you have to retread or you get downed because of some unfortunate event. These people probably go off on the idea of having a high number because it boosts their kitten. My cousin was in such a group today and saw 2 people getting harassed by the leader because of dps. THey got fed up and 3/5 flamed him and left the group because he was an obnoxious kitten. Fractals arent even THAT hard even on t4 if you dont do the “challenging content” challenge modes of nightmare and shattered observatory fractals. This really puts me off and while i enjoy fractals if this trend gets out of hand i will consider stop doing them,which is the main thing i do in gw besides going to get stomped by gandara in WvW.
Also i would really like to hear an official response to these third party programs used to see private dmg information of other players and kick them because of that. I personally see this as a kind of hacking on behalf of my account
(edited by Mister Asdasd.6194)
Also i would really like to hear an official response to these third party programs used to see private dmg information of other players and kick them because of that. I personally see this as a kind of hacking on behalf of my account
As it was already posted earlier in this thread, people should really read a thread and not just the opening, a re-post of the official stance:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5sw8ey/arenanets_official_stance_on_3rd_party_dps_meters/
“We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client.”
Which is what dps meters do and is perfectly legal. I’d give the suggestion as earlier in the thread: learning how to read (for those who join) and how to write (for those creating groups) is how all this can easily be solved. Sadly it’s not something for a video game to teach, that’s a school’s job.
I appreciate the feedback.
I appreciate theirs too – I understand how they feel – the only thing is that the world doesn’t always revolve around feelings. Sometimes it’s not personal and just business.Which is 100% fine; removing someone for performance (just business). The problem is frequently it gets personal, saying we are sorry we need someone with higher DPS for this role, and removing the player is one thing. Saying x is a casual noob, a bad, expects everyone one else to carry them etc is something else… My issue isn’t with the removing people when needed it’s the method it’s done in.
Sure either way some people will be offended, but there is no need to be rude when removing someone.
Then again – as I told another poster before – your real issue is not with DPS meters or the kick tool but with the players you choose to associate with in game.
After all – neither the kick function nor the DPS tool are insulting you and calling you noob. It’s other players – that quite honestly would’ve done the same based on AP or any other arbitrary reason.
People that are going to be vile are going to be vile “regardless” of the DPS tool.
Does anyone here honestly think the kind of people who kick you and insult you afterwards do it because they have a dps tool?.
Would they magically stop if they didn’t have one?
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
DPS meters is the epitomy of mmo elitism. I could understand MAYBE if organised raid groups would use one to weed out freeloaders who try to sneak in with masterwork and rare gear(yes i have seen those when i used to raid) but a lot of people are using them in fractals and even advertise they have them and will kick you if you dont perform well. Here let me say where dps meters can go wrong. A lot of times when i am fighting a boss as a warrior in melee range i happen to get hit and when i am low on hp and my healing skill in on cd i tend to use longbow and stay in a safe distance for my healing to come back,otherwise i run the risk of dying and being dead is way more useless than losing some dps because i use a secondary weapon to stay alive. Sometimes dps drops because you have to retread or you get downed because of some unfortunate event. These people probably go off on the idea of having a high number because it boosts their kitten. My cousin was in such a group today and saw 2 people getting harassed by the leader because of dps. THey got fed up and 3/5 flamed him and left the group because he was an obnoxious kitten. Fractals arent even THAT hard even on t4 if you dont do the “challenging content” challenge modes of nightmare and shattered observatory fractals. This really puts me off and while i enjoy fractals if this trend gets out of hand i will consider stop doing them,which is the main thing i do in gw besides going to get stomped by gandara in WvW.
Also i would really like to hear an official response to these third party programs used to see private dmg information of other players and kick them because of that. I personally see this as a kind of hacking on behalf of my account
So dodge boss tells and don’t take damage?
Or play a class that can dps from range?
There are ways around it.
Your poor dps might be a symptom of poor game understanding and performance – which is not what people want.
Why do you go and join groups that are clearly advertising as something you dislike?
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Then again – as I told another poster before – your real issue is not with DPS meters or the kick tool but with the players you choose to associate with in game.
Obviously, actually I really haven’t had this issue ^^; I’ve managed to have mostly good runs. One exception but people who can’t read the meters and try to “enforce” their numbers can’t be helped.
After all – neither the kick function nor the DPS tool are insulting you and calling you noob. It’s other players – that quite honestly would’ve done the same based on AP or any other arbitrary reason.
While I don’t have a super high AP, I have yet too be called a noob with 16k xD. Any other arbitrary reason could come up. However players with no quantifiable stats may be less inclined to criticize others. When they can clearly see, someone under performing they are more likely to make comments. Though as I said earlier at least some of the comments may be more accurate (not everyone running different specs is bad).
People that are going to be vile are going to be vile “regardless” of the DPS tool.
Does anyone here honestly think the kind of people who kick you and insult you afterwards do it because they have a dps tool?.
Would they magically stop if they didn’t have one?
Did you read any of my other posts? I’ve said DPS meters are simply a tool; they can be used nicely just like ANY other. Please try not to miss understand. I have no issue with DPS tools, that boat sailed as soon as A-net gave the green light. So there really is no sense in argueing about it. As it stands, the DPS tools actually provide a solid utility. Asking them to “play nicely” with others doesn’t hurt though.
Yes people who tend to act rudely tend to act rudely, however I can say from experience a DPS tool can bring out the worst in some. I’m in no way innocent of it, I’ve had a dps meter running and listened/joined in on the trash talk over mumble/vent (back when those were used in older mmos) of pugs that performed poorly on the tables.
As for the question; nope they wouldn’t “magically” stop any more then they “magically” started since the DPS tools started being a more common thing. If someone is performing poorly let them know without being a jerk, or just remove them and move on.
(Edit)
Why do you go and join groups that are clearly advertising as something you dislike?
This part I do agree with 100% and honestly believe just advertising and reading the advertisements would go a long way to solve most of these issues.
(edited by Miku.6297)
It’s a game not a job… Some of us like to take our time, if you’re not one of them please put it out there up front so we all don’t waste each others time.
When you see a group that says the simple: “T4 dailies” what do you expect?
A group that will teach you the details and mechanics of each encounter, or a group that is already experienced with it and wants to finish the daily quickly?
Just “T4 dailies”? I would expect they do not mind who joins.
It’s a game not a job… Some of us like to take our time, if you’re not one of them please put it out there up front so we all don’t waste each others time.
When you see a group that says the simple: “T4 dailies” what do you expect?
A group that will teach you the details and mechanics of each encounter, or a group that is already experienced with it and wants to finish the daily quickly?Just “T4 dailies”? I would expect they do not mind who joins.
^ This. If a PUG on LFG just puts that in their description then I expect them to take whoever joins. If you want to specify “Meta, food/pots/exp”, you’re welcome to do so, but if you do not specify that that’s what you’re looking for, then you have no right to complain about who joins.
I have got to ask, how does a level 50, get enough AR, to even enter a T4 fractal without getting eaten alive by Agony?
You can purchase as much AR as you like on the TP.
Ok.. Well, Wow, in the off chance this was not a total troll response, as far as I know, Agony Resist infusions can only be slotted it into Ascended Gear which is ML 80 (might be ML79 on some pieces).
So, I’ll ask you again.. how exactly does a level 50, get enough AR to enter a T4 fractal?
On the off chance that you’re not trolling, as I added above, “L50” might have been referring to personal fractal level. (There are also more than a few exotics that will take infusions.)
Besides, you don’t need any AR to enter a fractal. There are only a tiny number of spots where agony can’t be avoided (and some people are good enough at footwork to avoid all the others).
If someone is at Fractal level 50, would have the common sense by that point to know what the abbreviations mean in the LFG panel , so that makes no sense.
Lets get real, anyone who has the twitch to dance agony in a T4 fractal with what amounts to No AR, could out strip any elitist with a meta toon.. because.. kitten they are serious pro.
Also, Exotics are also level 80 (I believe 76 might be the ML, or some such)
I’m not altogether clear on your point now. Do you claim that everyone reads the LFG? Do you claim that people who do always respect the requirements?
The issue raised was that someone looking for an experienced group got people who were demonstrably inexperienced or otherwise not ready to do T4 dailies. You’re still quibbling about the details, rather than accepting that people organizing for challenging group content sometimes (even often) get people who aren’t prepared.
I asked above and I’ll ask again:
- If you join a group that’s asking for experience (or whatever), is it okay for the leader to /kick those who don’t have it?
- If you join a group that is “all welcome”, is it okay for the leader to /kick those who demonstrate they are looking only for an experienced group (e.g. they complain about folks with low DPS)?
It seems to me that using a DPS meter makes it easier for experienced people to find and group with other experienced people. And it also makes it easier for the inexperienced and those who don’t care to avoid folks focused on DPS. Regardless of the other pros/cons, that seems like a good thing for everyone.
My point, is that the hard gear requirement just to get enough AR to do fractals weans out the clueless players, as such, all these Elite Zerg players claiming to get plagued by noobs for T4 fractals, reeks of being a myth, a fable if you will, more then any real event, all said to justify their own elitism.
If you want to be an Elitist, just own it, don’t go blaming anyone else for your attitude, and if you are so plagued by “noobs” on your T4 fractal runs that you feel the need for 3rd party software to DPS check them, then, its time to face facts that Pugging is not for you. Find a Guild of like minded players and stick to static Fractal runs.
Dude, calm down. I don’t use a DPS meter. I don’t kick people from my groups. I’m not sure why you take umbrage whenever someone disagrees with you, so much so that you aren’t even reading what they write.
I’m asking if there are any situations in which you (or others) agree that it’s okay to kick someone from a group. Are there? Or do you think that people who use LFG should have to stick with whoever shows up, regardless of compatibility?
I don’t have a stake in your answer. It’s an honest question so I can better understand how other people see cooperative gaming, which I hope will make me a better team player.
Personally, unless I am running with like 4 guild mates and 1 random shows up and they are screwing up, I’m not gonna kick people.
There is a better then good chance if I am running a fractal with my guild mates, we could very easy carry someone without noticing anything if they were halfway decent.
But if they are making a spectacle of themselves, being a jerk, or directly hindering us, then they brought whatever comes upon themselves.
However, if I am just joining a Pug or leading one and I only have like 1 friend with me, and it looks like for whatever reason, we are not making this happen, I’ll just thank them for the group, explain that this is not working, and drop. Reform with my friend and put a new LFM up.
If the other 3 do eventually pull it off, maybe get someone better then me to make it work for them, Kudos. Everyone wins.
I don’t get the need for DPS meters, or whatever people use to justify a kick. Get in and game on.
Thought to Ponder: Every time you failed.. the only constant is you.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
When you see a group that says the simple: “T4 dailies” what do you expect?
A group that will teach you the details and mechanics of each encounter, or a group that is already experienced with it and wants to finish the daily quickly?Just “T4 dailies”? I would expect they do not mind who joins.
Although when you type “T4 dailies” you shouldn’t distinguish between professions and take any that might join, that doesn’t mean you will teach anyone the mechanics of any fight. That’s what groups with “training” in their name are for.
Joining a group that clears T4s in 20 minutes is a reward compared to joining a group that takes an hour.
Joining a raid group that fully clears in 2-2.5 hours instead of 6-7 per week is a reward. You might not see it but you are gaining something with a lot less effort – in a sense you’re getting a “discount” on time. Which in itself is to your benefit.
Good groups perform well and expect you to do the same.
This is not a reward. Elitism demands effort, it does not give for less effort. This is also contradictory, because you are assuming that some unworthy player is being gifted a run (which is a collaborative effort) in order to make the argument that somebody should never be gifted a run and that they should be pulling their own weight. It doesn’t work like that. You are also erroneously comparing a peak performance group to an incompetent one. You have to compare a group that has passing competence, so really you should be comparing groups that beat t4 in 35 minutes to ones that complete it in 20.
You also should factor in the time spent training to get that skillful, and also the time spent arguing on the forums to get everyone else to agree with you.
This as far as I’ve seen is false. Most groups that have demanded good play practices from me ( proper gear, proper rotations, good knowledge of hard content) have been very good groups that I’ve had a good experience playing with.
Perhaps you’re not able to find the right groups?
Lets not pretend that this argument hasn’t been going for years. Since launch I have been in dungeon runs with self-proclaimed experts who possessed the annoying trifecta of being loud, incompetent, and controlling. And through the years, this hasn’t changed.
Your denial of this comes from the fact that you’ve been doing guild runs almost exclusively, in a guild of people who have already agreed to use preset compositions and rotations. For you, somebody who doesn’t run the meta is violating an agreement that you’ve signed with the rest of your guild. The general population, however, is not like this at all. The agreement is to have fun, not to flex their gaming muscles. There is no demand for performance above average minimum competence. There is no “proving” yourself to enter into the game’s general population. The gameplay fascists who jump into a group and start hassling people what their DPS meters say are noticeably not in a guild that agrees to do so, so their competence immediately comes into question.
I think you’re falling into the US-centric mindset of throwing the “fascist” term around too easily. It has a definition – it does not apply here.
Analogies exist.
Personally I get most frustrated when encountering players that waste my time. You might think that’s “IRL” or “in-game failure” but honestly I can’t stand having to pick someone up off the floor 24/7 or having to tell them what to do on content that has been out for years.
Yes there are chill groups out there that will carry you, even if you’re non-meta – but that doesn’t mean all good groups are supposed to accept you just because some of them did.
I did not spend hours testing different traits and tactics on the raid golem to be “carried”. However I digress, the notion that somebody is “wasting your time” is a notion that you alone hold. Again, a player’s service is not indebted to you. These chill groups are not “carrying”, because they do not have the notion of performance debt to carry. They just play the game.
First and foremost it is not fair to them that you gain from their good performance while not being able to provide the same. It’s unfair – you get more off them then you give in return. Nobody can call that fair.
If you didn’t bother to “stop there”, you’d realize it is a long term investment. Again, collaborative efforts are not a gift, and performance debt doesn’t exist. It is fair that I am civil and forgive them, and it is fair that they are civil and forgive me.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
Second of all you have feelings – sure – (although personally I don’t particularly care about them nor am I obligated to do so) there’s the issue of their feelings as well.
You have feelings that get hurt if you get kicked or told you’re bad?
Well guess what – I have feelings that get hurt and a play experience that is ruined if I have to play with a bad player that’s not bothering to pull his weight and wants to leech off my run.
When did your feelings become more important than mine?
Therein lies the problem: caring about peoples feelings is something that normal people do. There’s a reason why we call people who don’t care about other’s feelings a sociopath. Other players are not tools with varying degrees of insolence. You’re going to spend endless hours arguing with people on this because you are a stone trying to convince water that indefinite form isn’t real. The best thing you can do is a person is realize that your lack of caring is abnormal, and thus your actions and decisions are going to be warped due to a selective sociological blind spot.
Within this realm of feelings is the joy gained by playing a particular class, and this is yet another thing that elitism punishes. People feel rewarded for playing their class the way they want, and don’t when they aren’t. With rare exception, this feeling is ubiquitous across the player base. As an addition to tolerance and forgiveness where people have agreed to have competent performance, we have the agreement that parties involved are going to be having fun. This agreement is not taxing, because if everyone is having fun playing the class the way they want, then the time for completion is not a factor. Any additional time spent on content due to inefficiencies is merely time spent having fun.
This expectation is not selfish. The unspoken agreement is that if one player plays how they want, another player can play how they want regardless of that manner of play. Other teammates are allowed to change their class or min-max their build however they want. There is no expectation to carry or be carried, and there is no debt of performance that demands to be filled.
On the contrary, elitism demands that everyone plays the same way, and puts stringent demands on other players. An elitist assumes that other players owe them an excessive level of performance. The elitist has invented concepts like “carry” and “leeching” to legitimize their entitlement, to demonizing the standard player and uplifting themselves to be righteous. Merely playing the game is considered a gift to the other players, but they demand recompense for their ways. Because of these destructive trends, the elitists wants and needs are less important to consider. The elitist demands everyone tries as hard as they can for their sake, where the casual doesn’t.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
The answer ( for me at least) is simple: never – because I’m me and to myself I matter more than you do.
Use an iota of logic here. If your desires are selfish and you admit this, then you should expect to be demonized for them. Every single argument you make is disingenuous now.
Except I’m perfectly fine with being kicked and excluded if I’m performing poorly.
Others aren’t, and you should respect that.
It is a two-way street but unlike you I am not afraid of being called out on failure and suffering the consequences of my actions or performance. It’s called being responsible for yourself.
It is only the selfish mind that sees sub-optimal performance as causing “suffering”. Other people do not see it this way or feel this way, and you are demanding the world kneel to your madness. It doesn’t work like that. Again, this mindset is warped. Because you have made arrangements to live within an unfair system doesn’t make it fair. It is like a thief that feels justified in stealing other peoples valuables because they’ve hid their own and would blame themselves if their own hidden valuables were taken.
If someone slows my run down and makes me waste 10-15 minutes – then yes – there is a debt. They take from me directly – they sap and ruin my enjoyment of the game and waste my time. I like neither of those things.
No, it doesn’t work like that. A player doesn’t “slow you down”, because you are not entitled to speed. In fact, you’re not even entitled to a group, let alone an elite group. You do not innately have speed which other people rob you of.
And here’s one of the problems – from what I gather you think everything is an interpersonal problem while in most cases it is not.
Any issue that deals with the expectations and demands put upon a person is an interpersonal problem, for it involves two people: You, and the other unnamed person. Other players are not tools with varying levels of insolence.
No amount of negotiation or forgiveness will teach you core mechanics or give you the proper gear.
I’m not the game’s tutorial system – I’m not here to instruct you ( especially since all hard content is incredibly old).
This is blatantly not true. I have been on groups where I have given advice to players, and seen their performance increase drastically because of it. The difference between an incompetent player and a competent one is usually but a few words. Being that this is a multiplayer game without a tutorial, you are the tutorial system of the game. I have seen players change their gear on suggestion as well. Not everybody who plays the game has been playing for years, and no matter how old the content is it will be new to somebody.
The best part is, this works out better than kicking, because I have increased the overall performance power of the community permanently. Kicking would’ve let it be stagnant and bred more hostility.
Again – don’t make this personal because it suits your narrative – it is not personal. I have no interest in 90% of the people I meet in pugs as persons.
This is utter BS. Every word you have written is dripping with condescension, and you have taken the position that everybody who doesn’t submit refuses out of a character flaw. You have called casuals selfish, irresponsible, undeserving, cowardly, and emotionally frail.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
What you’re stating is absurd.
You’re saying people will kick you because of low dps while you’re sacrificing your dps to take the burden off mechanics.
Honestly no good group will do this.
Well, my good man, my concern is not with “good groups”. It is with bad groups who think themselves to be good. Probably one of my favorite lines that I’ve heard doing casual t4s is “OMG I can’t believe the scrapper has the highest DPS”. This group didn’t advertise meters. The player simply had it on them and was watching it intently.
In the second case your issue is not dps meters but the quality of the people you’ve associated with and no removal of dps meters will change that.
It will. The thing is, discriminating against players for AP or LI or having titles is both silly, and highly visual. You can avoid groups which do this easily, and also discourage them from doing this by publicly pointing out the flaws of their reasoning. But DPS meters are invisible and never advertised. I cannot see the group which has somebody hovering over a DPS meter with a chip on their shoulder. It just happens. Thankfully, I’ve never been kicked, but I have seen other players get kicked for it, so my fears are not unfounded.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
Thankfully, I’ve never been kicked, but I have seen other players get kicked for it, so my fears are not unfounded.
Fun fact about these kinds of comments: you never know the full picture.
Case in point: the opening of this thread. We still don’t know what exactly happened.
“I heard it happening, so it must be true”, is not a very good argument.
Common courtesy goes a long way.
No one should be forced to play together, but you’re still dealing with other people.
“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
Thankfully, I’ve never been kicked, but I have seen other players get kicked for it, so my fears are not unfounded.
Fun fact about these kinds of comments: you never know the full picture.
Case in point: the opening of this thread. We still don’t know what exactly happened.“I heard it happening, so it must be true”, is not a very good argument.
“Seen” is literal here. I was on the team, and saw the person ousted. I have personally witnessed this happen at least twice. And in both instances, the person who initiated the kick said “his DPS was low”.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
(edited by Blood Red Arachnid.2493)
Thankfully, I’ve never been kicked, but I have seen other players get kicked for it, so my fears are not unfounded.
Fun fact about these kinds of comments: you never know the full picture.
Case in point: the opening of this thread. We still don’t know what exactly happened.“I heard it happening, so it must be true”, is not a very good argument.
“Seen” is literal here. I was on the team, and saw the person ousted. I have personally witnessed this happen at least twice.
And? Why were they actually kicked? A person getting ousted can happen for a billion things, as you can more than clearly see at the opening of this thread.
And besides that, twice in how many runs?
Poor time to edit I guess. But yes, both of those times the person who initiated the kick said it was because their DPS is low. As for the run count, I don’t know. It is quite infrequent from what I’ve seen, but I have far from an all encompassing view.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
Poor time to edit I guess. But yes, both of those times the person who initiated the kick said it was because their DPS is low. As for the run count, I don’t know. It is quite infrequent from what I’ve seen, but I have far from an all encompassing view.
The OP was also kicked because his DPS was low. But in many cases his kick would’ve been more than justified. He was playing a support Tempest, if he was kicked for having low dps after mentioning he was a support Tempest then the blame is on the team that kicked him. However, if he, which to me seems more likely, never communicated that, then the fault can be on the OP instead, which also depends on the rest on the team composition. Imagine if the team already had a Druid, which is more than enough to heal even in T4 fractals and makes the support Tempest useless. Or if they had another support Tempest, one of them should’ve changed spec, build or character.
Failure to communicate lies on both sides here. A second support spec isn’t needed, and in fact can make a fractal run worse, cause extra wipes, making it harder to deal with mechanics. And besides that we don’t even know what kind of group that was, was it an “all welcome” group, a “T4 meta” group? Or was it a low level T1 group where a kick would make zero sense in any way?
Same goes for every other case of “kicked due to low dps”. I’m not denying there are idiots out there who might kick out of spite. But not all cases are equal.
You’re going to spend endless hours arguing with people on this because you are a stone trying to convince water that indefinite form isn’t real.
This part is particularly amazing.
This is not a reward. Elitism demands effort, it does not give for less effort.
I’m sorry but you don’t get to redefine what elitism is. Elitism isn’t wanting more effort – it’s being exclusive in who you associate with. It’s being part of “the elite”.
If I wanted more effort I wouldn’t be an elitist – I’d be a masochist. I’ve worked hard to get good at the game in order to have things be easier for me in the game not harder.
This is also contradictory, because you are assuming that some unworthy player is being gifted a run (which is a collaborative effort) in order to make the argument that somebody should never be gifted a run and that they should be pulling their own weight. It doesn’t work like that. You are also erroneously comparing a peak performance group to an incompetent one. You have to compare a group that has passing competence, so really you should be comparing groups that beat t4 in 35 minutes to ones that complete it in 20.
If your collaboration to our run is less than everyone else’s – you’re being “gifted” the run. If the run would work better with another player then yes – being in the run is something you’re getting as a gift.
Even if I take your comparison – from 35 to 20 minutes – it’s almost twice as long. That might be acceptable to you but it certainly isn’t acceptable to me. 25 instead of 20 maybe – if I’m feeling generous.
And yes people should be pulling their weight – if the run goes BETTER without a certain player ( and yes, that is something that happens when people don’t know what they’re doing and won’t listen) then that person is being gifted the run.
You also should factor in the time spent training to get that skillful, and also the time spent arguing on the forums to get everyone else to agree with you.
I run things smoothly in game so I can counteract your wild ideas on the forum. Consider it me doing my part for the GW2 community. I kick people that are bad so I can have smooth runs, so I can earn time to explain why bad people should be kicked on the forum.
Lets not pretend that this argument hasn’t been going for years. Since launch I have been in dungeon runs with self-proclaimed experts who possessed the annoying trifecta of being loud, incompetent, and controlling. And through the years, this hasn’t changed.
Your denial of this comes from the fact that you’ve been doing guild runs almost exclusively, in a guild of people who have already agreed to use preset compositions and rotations. For you, somebody who doesn’t run the meta is violating an agreement that you’ve signed with the rest of your guild. The general population, however, is not like this at all. The agreement is to have fun, not to flex their gaming muscles. There is no demand for performance above average minimum competence. There is no “proving” yourself to enter into the game’s general population. The gameplay fascists who jump into a group and start hassling people what their DPS meters say are noticeably not in a guild that agrees to do so, so their competence immediately comes into question.
You’re not even close to being right – I don’t do guild runs – I have a raid team that’s a static but most other content I pug.
I also pugged raids and managed to create Raid teams that cleared content well and fast by simply kicking out the people that did not meet the absurdly high requirements I set or who under performed.
For me someone who doesn’t run the meta is most likely going to be a waste of time – so I’m not going to take the chance.
You want to have fun? Sure go ahead – but not here. You join a serious group – take things seriously or take it somewhere else.
Also what does fascist mean to you? Because I’m pretty sure you’re misusing that term.
I did not spend hours testing different traits and tactics on the raid golem to be “carried”. However I digress, the notion that somebody is “wasting your time” is a notion that you alone hold. Again, a player’s service is not indebted to you. These chill groups are not “carrying”, because they do not have the notion of performance debt to carry. They just play the game.
Sure – but as I value my time – losing it because others won’t spend the minimum amount to learn the build/encounter mechanics you’re not going to convince me that “just playing the game” is good enough.
If you didn’t bother to “stop there”, you’d realize it is a long term investment. Again, collaborative efforts are not a gift, and performance debt doesn’t exist. It is fair that I am civil and forgive them, and it is fair that they are civil and forgive me.
So investing in something that I have no control over and not one certainty is a smart thing?
Sure – if a player wants me to teach him and puts in the effort, asks for advice and proves he’s interested in actually pulling his weight I’ll help. Even more so if I want to integrate him into my core group.
But train a pug that you’ll never see again? Why?
Collaborative efforts are a gift if the difference in effort is significant.
If we both agree to bring food for a feast and you bring 10% and I bring 90% is it still a team effort?
If I can do something without you but you can’t do it without me – it’s you who’s not bringing enough.
and performance debt doesn’t exist.
Because you said so?
It is fair that I am civil and forgive them, and it is fair that they are civil and forgive me.
So the opposite doesn’t apply? Is it not also fair if I’m unforgiving and others are the same? I don’t need my hand held in game. I really don’t.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
When you see a group that says the simple: “T4 dailies” what do you expect?
A group that will teach you the details and mechanics of each encounter, or a group that is already experienced with it and wants to finish the daily quickly?Just “T4 dailies”? I would expect they do not mind who joins.
Although when you type “T4 dailies” you shouldn’t distinguish between professions and take any that might join, that doesn’t mean you will teach anyone the mechanics of any fight. That’s what groups with “training” in their name are for.
Then put “no newbies” or something in your listing. If you just put “T4 dailies” it’s assumed that’s what you want. If you do not want people that like hazelnut then put “no hazelnut fans” in your listing, otherwise you’re being disingenuous.
Second of all you have feelings – sure – (although personally I don’t particularly care about them nor am I obligated to do so) there’s the issue of their feelings as well.
You have feelings that get hurt if you get kicked or told you’re bad?
Well guess what – I have feelings that get hurt and a play experience that is ruined if I have to play with a bad player that’s not bothering to pull his weight and wants to leech off my run.
When did your feelings become more important than mine?Therein lies the problem: caring about peoples feelings is something that normal people do. There’s a reason why we call people who don’t care about other’s feelings a sociopath. Other players are not tools with varying degrees of insolence. You’re going to spend endless hours arguing with people on this because you are a stone trying to convince water that indefinite form isn’t real. The best thing you can do is a person is realize that your lack of caring is abnormal, and thus your actions and decisions are going to be warped due to a selective sociological blind spot.
So let me get this straight – if a person cares more about their feelings than the feelings of another that person is a sociopath?
Because I would argue that a person that cares more about the feelings of others than he does about his own is pathologically altruistic.
People care about others – yes – but ultimately people care more about themselves. That’s not begins a sociopath – it’s being a normal human being. People put themselves first. Normal people at least.
There are very niche situations in which people don’t – but those situations arise from complex and long-term human-human interaction (camaraderie in the field of battle, sacrificing yourself for your partner or child). You can’t expect this level of selflessness in a game – which I would argue isn’t even human contact at all. Or if it is it is the barest minimum.
Your view that my lack of consideration for other players in a video game is a testimony of sociopathy is in itself a testimony of how warped you perceive things to be.
People in this game ( the majority of them and almost all pugs) are not my long-term peers, they’re not my friends, not my neighbors.
Honestly – there’s no way to even prove they’re people at all if you want to get all crazy – how do I know they’re not sophisticated AI?
Crazy ideas aside – what makes you think it’s normal to exhibit a complex behavior such as selflessness in a setting that’s so far removed from the normal circumstances in which this behavior appears?
Within this realm of feelings is the joy gained by playing a particular class, and this is yet another thing that elitism punishes. People feel rewarded for playing their class the way they want, and don’t when they aren’t. With rare exception, this feeling is ubiquitous across the player base. As an addition to tolerance and forgiveness where people have agreed to have competent performance, we have the agreement that parties involved are going to be having fun. This agreement is not taxing, because if everyone is having fun playing the class the way they want, then the time for completion is not a factor. Any additional time spent on content due to inefficiencies is merely time spent having fun.
Of course everything you state is hinges entirely on how you define fun. If the act of playing itself is fun for you then some of what you said stands true.
However – for a great number of MMO players the fun is in the rewards. Most MMO content is a “grind” that you wouldn’t do unless you wanted a reward.
Thus – most MMO players want their reward as quickly as possible because that’s the fun for them.
You’re saying it’s the journey and not the destination – I’m saying it’s the destination and not the journey. At least to me and to others.
So then – the time of completion is always a factor because you want it as short as possible.
The problem is that you only see things from your side and refuse to see the other side. To me doing T4 fractals isn’t fun – opening T4 fractal loot is fun.
Grinding for gold isn’t fun – what’s fun is buying rare skins and crafting legendaries.
It follows naturally that I’d want to spend as little time as possible doing the un-fun part.
This expectation is not selfish. The unspoken agreement is that if one player plays how they want, another player can play how they want regardless of that manner of play. Other teammates are allowed to change their class or min-max their build however they want. There is no expectation to carry or be carried, and there is no debt of performance that demands to be filled.
And what happens when your method of play is incompatible with mine?
If we group together and you want to run your build and “fight all the mobs” while I want to clear the dungeon ASAP and just get out. Who’s right?
The line is drawn when the majority decides. If we decide that we want the end reward quickly and you want to take your time and enjoy the journey – we’re going to kick you because ultimately we’re supposed to group up based on common goals. If we don’t have those then we shouldn’t be playing together.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
On the contrary, elitism demands that everyone plays the same way, and puts stringent demands on other players. An elitist assumes that other players owe them an excessive level of performance. The elitist has invented concepts like “carry” and “leeching” to legitimize their entitlement, to demonizing the standard player and uplifting themselves to be righteous. Merely playing the game is considered a gift to the other players, but they demand recompense for their ways. Because of these destructive trends, the elitists wants and needs are less important to consider. The elitist demands everyone tries as hard as they can for their sake, where the casual doesn’t.
Except I never remember forcing anyone into my elitist parties. I don’t remember telling them to join and then pushing for my play style.
I assume people are capable of reading the LFG requirements and actually joining ONLY if they meet those requirements.
And I don’t understand why they’d join if they don’t.
It’s almost funny – you actually believe leeching or carrying aren’t real? You actually believe “leech players” don’t exist?
They do. In those parties where super nice players strive to get along and be all inclusive I’ve often seen the “brb door” only to come back when the boss is up or already dead.
Now you might think that it was just a case of “brb door” but the sad truth is that there was no door – there was only alt-tab.
Because of these destructive trends, the elitists wants and needs are less important to consider.
There we have it – the “we’re better than you” – “you’re less important” because you’re not like us.
You’re destructive. You’re evil.
I really like you.
First you take something that does exist – like leeching – and say it doesn’t exist. Even though you have no way of proving that. And you have no way of proving that because it can’t be proven. You take your own statement as fact and then hold the fact that we mention leeching as a testimony to our nature as “destructive”.
Afterwards – since we’re “destructive” you relegate us as a “lower caste” who’s needs are “less important”
Bravo – That was really smooth.
That leeching is true can be proven – I can easily go leech a run and provided people are sufficiently permissive and tolerant I’ll get away with it too. I’ll get the reward solely through the work of the other players adding none of my own.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Second of all you have feelings – sure – (although personally I don’t particularly care about them nor am I obligated to do so) there’s the issue of their feelings as well.
You have feelings that get hurt if you get kicked or told you’re bad?
Well guess what – I have feelings that get hurt and a play experience that is ruined if I have to play with a bad player that’s not bothering to pull his weight and wants to leech off my run.
When did your feelings become more important than mine?Therein lies the problem: caring about peoples feelings is something that normal people do. There’s a reason why we call people who don’t care about other’s feelings a sociopath. Other players are not tools with varying degrees of insolence. You’re going to spend endless hours arguing with people on this because you are a stone trying to convince water that indefinite form isn’t real. The best thing you can do is a person is realize that your lack of caring is abnormal, and thus your actions and decisions are going to be warped due to a selective sociological blind spot.
So let me get this straight – if a person cares more about their feelings than the feelings of another that person is a sociopath?
Because I would argue that a person that cares more about the feelings of others than he does about his own is pathologically altruistic.
People care about others – yes – but ultimately people care more about themselves. That’s not begins a sociopath – it’s being a normal human being. People put themselves first. Normal people at least.There are very niche situations in which people don’t – but those situations arise from complex and long-term human-human interaction (camaraderie in the field of battle, sacrificing yourself for your partner or child). You can’t expect this level of selflessness in a game – which I would argue isn’t even human contact at all. Or if it is it is the barest minimum.
Your view that my lack of consideration for other players in a video game is a testimony of sociopathy is in itself a testimony of how warped you perceive things to be.
People in this game ( the majority of them and almost all pugs) are not my long-term peers, they’re not my friends, not my neighbors.
Honestly – there’s no way to even prove they’re people at all if you want to get all crazy – how do I know they’re not sophisticated AI?Crazy ideas aside – what makes you think it’s normal to exhibit a complex behavior such as selflessness in a setting that’s so far removed from the normal circumstances in which this behavior appears?
Within this realm of feelings is the joy gained by playing a particular class, and this is yet another thing that elitism punishes. People feel rewarded for playing their class the way they want, and don’t when they aren’t. With rare exception, this feeling is ubiquitous across the player base. As an addition to tolerance and forgiveness where people have agreed to have competent performance, we have the agreement that parties involved are going to be having fun. This agreement is not taxing, because if everyone is having fun playing the class the way they want, then the time for completion is not a factor. Any additional time spent on content due to inefficiencies is merely time spent having fun.
Of course everything you state is hinges entirely on how you define fun. If the act of playing itself is fun for you then some of what you said stands true.
However – for a great number of MMO players the fun is in the rewards. Most MMO content is a “grind” that you wouldn’t do unless you wanted a reward.
Thus – most MMO players want their reward as quickly as possible because that’s the fun for them.
You’re saying it’s the journey and not the destination – I’m saying it’s the destination and not the journey. At least to me and to others.So then – the time of completion is always a factor because you want it as short as possible.
The problem is that you only see things from your side and refuse to see the other side. To me doing T4 fractals isn’t fun – opening T4 fractal loot is fun.
Grinding for gold isn’t fun – what’s fun is buying rare skins and crafting legendaries.It follows naturally that I’d want to spend as little time as possible doing the un-fun part.
This expectation is not selfish. The unspoken agreement is that if one player plays how they want, another player can play how they want regardless of that manner of play. Other teammates are allowed to change their class or min-max their build however they want. There is no expectation to carry or be carried, and there is no debt of performance that demands to be filled.
And what happens when your method of play is incompatible with mine?
If we group together and you want to run your build and “fight all the mobs” while I want to clear the dungeon ASAP and just get out. Who’s right?
The line is drawn when the majority decides. If we decide that we want the end reward quickly and you want to take your time and enjoy the journey – we’re going to kick you because ultimately we’re supposed to group up based on common goals. If we don’t have those then we shouldn’t be playing together.
That is basically what “sociopath” means. Why are you being so hostile towards everyone?
Use an iota of logic here. If your desires are selfish and you admit this, then you should expect to be demonized for them.
Are you genuinely not making fun of me? All humans are selfish and almost all humans put themselves above others in most situations.
You’re not demonizing me – you’re demonizing what it means to be a human being.
I’ve touched on this above. I won’t repeat it here.
Every single argument you make is disingenuous now.
Because I’ve admitted that I’m selfish? At least I’m not hypocritical. All humans care more about themselves than they do others. If this wasn’t true you wouldn’t have war, conflict, strife and all the other things that humans have.
Others aren’t, and you should respect that.
Respect is earned and not given freely – at least that’s how it is where I live. I won’t respect someone just because they want to be respected.
If respect was given freely it would have no meaning.
It is only the selfish mind that sees sub-optimal performance as causing “suffering”. Other people do not see it this way or feel this way, and you are demanding the world kneel to your madness. It doesn’t work like that. Again, this mindset is warped. Because you have made arrangements to live within an unfair system doesn’t make it fair. It is like a thief that feels justified in stealing other peoples valuables because they’ve hid their own and would blame themselves if their own hidden valuables were taken.
Except you’re once again wrong. If you wipe on VG for one hour and every wipe is caused by me then I am the cause of suffering for that party.
Have you been with a raid group that wipes time and time and time again on a boss? Have you been with them on comms? It’s a miserable experience. They are suffering – not horribly – but suffering.
Nobody has fun doing a raid boss or fractal 10 times over only to fail at the very end. Especially if you have to do it over and over.
You stating other people don’t see it this way is simply you pushing your viewpoint as the truth and mine as “madness” but nothing more really.
To assume that other players DO NOT MIND having their success and progress taken away because of my performance and actions is the same kind of madness you accuse me from – but at the other side of the spectrum.
Because you have made arrangements to live within an unfair system doesn’t make it fair.
Accepting that sometimes YOU are the problem and the cause of failure is not an “unfair system” – it’s the truth. Sometimes YOU are the cause of what’s wrong with a run or a group or a boss kill. You have to take responsibility for that.
It is like a thief that feels justified in stealing other peoples valuables because they’ve hid their own and would blame themselves if their own hidden valuables were taken.
How does this compare to what I said? When have I “hidden” my failures?
I feel justified to call out and kick people for doing badly and accept that they do the same to me. Where exactly is the “me hiding my failure” part come in?
You’re sneaky – but I’m not that blind. Twisting my words won’t work.
No, it doesn’t work like that. A player doesn’t “slow you down”, because you are not entitled to speed. In fact, you’re not even entitled to a group, let alone an elite group.
I love your rhetoric – “It doesn’t work like that” – why? Because you say so?
I’m entitled to my goals in game. If I state my goals and people join despite not having those goals I’m going to protect my group and kick them.
You do not innately have speed which other people rob you of.
So you’re saying the situation where a 4-man group would clear something in let’s say 5 minutes but doesn’t because their 5th man is aggroing everything and adding additional burdens isn’t real?
It’s the very definition of “the group was doing better without you and would’ve cleared faster” – that’s “innate speed” that the 5th person is robbing.
I’m going to ask you a simple question.
Am I allowed to have MY own goals in game – that are separate from another player’s goals? Because I have a feeling your answer is no.
My belief is that the answer is yes – and I also believe that it is common human courtesy that if I state my goals and yours and mine don’t align (or are contrary to one another) it is best that we don’t associate. If indeed you desire to forcibly associate with me despite the fact that we do not share common goals I have a right to “defend” myself and remove you from my group.
Any issue that deals with the expectations and demands put upon a person is an interpersonal problem, for it involves two people: You, and the other unnamed person. Other players are not tools with varying levels of insolence.
By this definition EVERYTHING is an interpersonal problem.
If they’re not tools then neither am I. If they want to play with me and I don’t want to play with them I’m not going to just do it because they want/expect me to.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Wow…this thread has gotten…just wow…
Right, i disagree with being able to see another persons equipped items etc, but i have no problem with being able to see someones DPS, frankly id rather get kicked for not putting out so to speak, than just for playing a ranger, or a necro like the game used to be.
Also…to those with a DPS meter, would one of yall want to tell me what my ranger is putting out? im curious, but dont know anybody who uses one.
The pvp community reminds me of what Obi-kittenenobi describes Mos Eisley as from star wars.
This is blatantly not true. I have been on groups where I have given advice to players, and seen their performance increase drastically because of it.
Are you honestly taking what I write and then pretending I wrote something else? I said " No amount of negotiation or forgiveness will teach you core mechanics or give you the proper gear."
Which is true. I did not write “advice” – I wrote negotiation or forgiveness. These do not add gear to a person’s inventory nor do they teach core mechanics.
Being that this is a multiplayer game without a tutorial, you are the tutorial system of the game.
Really? And who decided that? Because I don’t remember receiving any messages from the developer team instructing me “You are the tutorial system of the game – godspeed Harper”.
You like to make a broad statement – I will also partake in this art.
“Being that this is a multiplayer game without a tutorial, the game does not have a tutorial.”
You have no right to shift responsibility for a tutorial from the game/developers to me.
Not everybody who plays the game has been playing for years, and no matter how old the content is it will be new to somebody.
It is also good practice when attempting something new to perhaps look into it before trying to join people that have been doing it for a while or let people know you’re new so they know who they’re working with.
The best part is, this works out better than kicking, because I have increased the overall performance power of the community permanently. Kicking would’ve let it be stagnant and bred more hostility.
You have no certainty of this – but it must be more comfortable to think this way.
I too like to pat myself on the back from time to time in situations where I don’t definitively know if I did or not make an impact.
I too can speculate that kicking a player – a rather “aggressive action” has motivated him to research the encounter and build the proper gear – emboldened him to be greater so that in the future he does not get kicked.
Perhaps your advice helped your player – but only a little – and since that was enough to clear the encounter he never really did any more thus never unlocking his true potential. If this is the case we could say you did him a disservice.
This is utter BS. Every word you have written is dripping with condescension, and you have taken the position that everybody who doesn’t submit refuses out of a character flaw. You have called casuals selfish, irresponsible, undeserving, cowardly, and emotionally frail.
Are you going to argue that a person that knows he’s not contributing enough but still stays for the rewards isn’t selfish? Or that he’s deserving of those rewards even if others get them for him?
Or are you going to say that a person who’s afraidof the consequences of their choices and wants to do all in his power to avoid them is not cowardly?
Finally – if getting kicked from a group in a game is so hurtful that you just can’t bear it and have to complain on the forums – is that not the sign of some emotional frailty?
It might be because we grew up in different parts of the world – but where I’m from that’s not really something that people consider “a problem”.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Look at the Internet Tough Guys in this thread.
“If you aren’t performing we are going to kick you out of the group!”
Good. Spare me the trouble of putting up with you. I deal with enough stress running my company; I don’t need any gruff from emotionally-stunted teenagers when I’m trying to relax and play a video game
Main character: Winter Harvest (Necromancer)
[BICE] Black Ice / Maguuma Server
[BICE] Black Ice / Maguuma Server
What you’re stating is absurd.
You’re saying people will kick you because of low dps while you’re sacrificing your dps to take the burden off mechanics.
Honestly no good group will do this.Well, my good man, my concern is not with “good groups”. It is with bad groups who think themselves to be good. Probably one of my favorite lines that I’ve heard doing casual t4s is “OMG I can’t believe the scrapper has the highest DPS”. This group didn’t advertise meters. The player simply had it on them and was watching it intently.
In the second case your issue is not dps meters but the quality of the people you’ve associated with and no removal of dps meters will change that.
It will. The thing is, discriminating against players for AP or LI or having titles is both silly, and highly visual. You can avoid groups which do this easily, and also discourage them from doing this by publicly pointing out the flaws of their reasoning. But DPS meters are invisible and never advertised. I cannot see the group which has somebody hovering over a DPS meter with a chip on their shoulder. It just happens. Thankfully, I’ve never been kicked, but I have seen other players get kicked for it, so my fears are not unfounded.
Well my good man, unfortunately for you – bad groups that consider themselves good will kick regardless of dps or performance.
And I would say that if you’re in such a group and actively staying there despite seeing that they’re like that – you’re partially to blame for getting kicked.
I know what type of groups you mean – why would you stick around?
It will. The thing is, discriminating against players for AP or LI or having titles is both silly, and highly visual.
Oh so you’re afraid they’re going to surprise-dps-meter kick you instead of just kicking you and saying “noob”. They don’t need a meter- I’ve been in groups like this – if they have no idea who the lowest dps is because no meter they’ll just kick the class that’s not “meta” enough.
If they have a full meta comp they’ll kick the one person who either went down last run OR they’ll go for the person who’s muted in voice chat and unable to defend themselves when someone says something against them.
These groups WILL kick someone.
You can avoid groups which do this easily, and also discourage them from doing this by publicly pointing out the flaws of their reasoning.
I’m certain in-game half-bad half-elitist pugs have been thoroughly discouraged by your exposure of their flaws of reasoning.
No – they’ve blocked you and moved on.
But DPS meters are invisible and never advertised.
The silent killer, the ever watching eye – eternally awake, infinite in their measuring of men and gods alike – the dps meters reign supreme above all creation.
I cannot see the group which has somebody hovering over a DPS meter with a chip on their shoulder. It just happens. Thankfully, I’ve never been kicked, but I have seen other players get kicked for it, so my fears are not unfounded.
And I’ve seen people go afk in groups before killing ONE mob and returning only after the rewards were given out simply because the others wouldn’t kick.
So my fears are not unfounded either.
Like it or not – it looks like DPS meters are here to stay.
That being said I’m not opposed to going back to a more savage and barbarous age where we kicked based on who we thought was the problem, who went down the most or who didn’t have voice comms.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
That is basically what “sociopath” means. Why are you being so hostile towards everyone?
The DSM-5 defines antisocial personality disorder as "[a] pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another."
I don’t see where it says or where it implies that one of the traits is “caring more for yourself than for another person”.
Because that’s not sociopathy.
Also I don’t really see how any of the above could apply to a video game or how one could quantify that while one player kicked another he was not overwhelmed with a sense of remorse.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Look at the Internet Tough Guys in this thread.
“If you aren’t performing we are going to kick you out of the group!”
Good. Spare me the trouble of putting up with you. I deal with enough stress running my company; I don’t need any gruff from emotionally-stunted teenagers when I’m trying to relax and play a video game
I feel you – keep fighting that good fight running your company. I will keep my gruff away from you even though I’m neither emotionally-stunted nor a teenager.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Two kinds of players kick:
1. little brats that want to feel good about themselves or make room for a friend.
2. players who want to do their T4s is short time and can’t stand bad players anymore.
OP most likely got hit by the 2nd type.
I cannot even count how many times I started doing T4s with players having ZERO AR and no clue about mechanics.
How long can one carry such players? Ad Infinitum?
Of course, if you are a bad player and by bad I mean no skills, no gear and no knowledge of the encounter, a DPS meter looks like a torture tool.
And even if you are a good player, someone always find a reason to kick.
Simple: make some friends if you don’t have some, create a group and have fun.
Want to be really good at Fractals/RAIDS? You will need a DPS meter.
Want to just tag along for the loot? Expect kicks.
I feel you – keep fighting that good fight running your company.
See, that’s the problem right here. This is not work or business. It’s a game – an entertainment.
Some people seem to really keep forgetting about it and think that everyone should treat it really seriously, as if it were a second job.
You really have problems understanding english.
The poor soul said he just wants to have fun in game because he has enough problems in RL, managing his company.
You really have problems understanding english.
The poor soul said he just wants to have fun in game because he has enough problems in RL, managing his company.
And what we’ve seen in this thread over and over is different people bring with them different ideas of fun, different expectations of those they group with, and different goals. Harper seems to like his games when treated as srsbsns. Not really anything fundamentally wrong with that or Astralporing just wanting to relax in game.
And what we’ve seen in this thread over and over is different people bring with them different ideas of fun, different expectations of those they group with, and different goals. Harper seems to like his games when treated as srsbsns. Not really anything fundamentally wrong with that or Astralporing just wanting to relax in game.
Yes but if you noticed it’s the people who want to relax that put the labels on. It’s those who play the game to relax that want the game to change, that want even the players themselves to change (!!!), in order to follow their own ideal. I think that last one is really sad. And when they can’t get carried, which they believe is their privilege as players, they come on forums and complain.
Then put “no newbies” or something in your listing. If you just put “T4 dailies” it’s assumed that’s what you want. If you do not want people that like hazelnut then put “no hazelnut fans” in your listing, otherwise you’re being disingenuous.
If I just put T4 dailies it’s assumed that I want to do the freaking dailies, not teach them. There is no need for “no newbies”, if I wanted to teach I’d put a “T4 daily training” instead.
When you want to train look for the word “training” in a listing, there were loads when the new Fractal was released because nobody had experience with it anyway.
(edited by maddoctor.2738)
It’s always funny to hear people complain they want challenging content. Wouldn’t it be more challenging to let a non meta player join you???? hmmmm
dps litmus tests are just sad and content that requires those things is sad as well
It’s always funny to hear people complain they want challenging content. Wouldn’t it be more challenging to let a non meta player join you????
No. /15chars