Guild Wars 2

Please don’t lock the new elite specs behind content walls, PoF-specific hero challenges or an exorbitant amount of hero points. Please don’t make this launch as bad as the initial HoT was, with all HPs required to fully unlock the spec.

On the day PoF hits, all I want is to be able to put my extra hero points to good use. I don’t want to have to do PoF areas in order to unlock them and I don’t want to see HP costs of new specs inflated just to make players do PoF hero challenges.

Can you just let us (or at least those of us who had already done tons of extra hero challenges in preparation) enjoy the new specs right off the bat this time? Pretty please? With an omnomberry on top?

I really don’t mind if they go ether way. At HoT launch, I was okay with the skill point price and was indifferent about the change.

However, there is one question that goes through my mind when I see the argument, “I don’t want to explore and do the challenges.”

Do you actually want to play the game?

Considering there are still HP trains being organized in HoT maps 2 years later, I don’t see expensive unlocking as a problem.

Coffietire.2783:

I really don’t mind if they go ether way. At HoT launch, I was okay with the skill point price and was indifferent about the change.

However, there is one question that goes through my mind when I see the argument, “I don’t want to explore and do the challenges.”

Do you actually want to play the game?

Considering there are still HP trains being organized in HoT maps 2 years later, I don’t see expensive unlocking as a problem.

They want to explore the new lands and play the game with the new elite spec.

Not be rewarded with the new elite spec after exploring and playing the new expansion pack.

Seera.5916:

They want to explore the new lands and play the game with the new elite spec.

Not be rewarded with the new elite spec after exploring and playing the new expansion pack.

Exactly. Couldn’t have put it better myself.

Yeah, I agree. It should not be required to complete PoF content to unlock the elite spec. The HoT elite spec took too much time and energy specific to playing HoT content to fully unlock.

Part of the problem, though, is that you can’t play with an elite spec without fully unlocking it if you don’t want to be kitten. This is a very questionable design decision that emerges from the way they changed the system for elite specs. My general feeling is that skills and traits should have remained separate rather than being combined with hero points, and that traits should be easier to unlock than skills.

I know players that this irked and I fear it lost us some on the player base. If the intent was to create an artificial second play thru then I don’t know it succeeded there. I like to try content from differing build/classes but not certain forcing people to do so is a good approach. At the same time without some content to play thru to acquire it you end up with the “what now” syndrome as well so it’s a balancing act.

Has anyone calculated total existing HPs versus the total points needed to unlock a base toon + HoT? If we use that as directional information we might already have an excise number of points in the world. They also might include a full respec and have people be able to spec into things from there. Want Druid and Soulbeast, you will have some HPs to do.

Wvw for a bit you should get what you need to unlock the PoF spec. fast and it lets you do prep work now for it.

Jski.6180:

Wvw for a bit you should get what you need to unlock the PoF spec. fast and it lets you do prep work now for it.

there should be another option for PvEr’s like me. I dislike WvW i have never stepped one foot in it (except for the PoF beta which is an exception) and i never will.

There is another option go out in the open world and complete hero challenges in core and hot.
Save them up and you will have about 257 extra ones to pump into your new spec.

Linken.6345:

There is another option go out in the open world and complete hero challenges in core and hot.
Save them up and you will have about 257 extra ones to pump into your new spec.

I never liked the layout of HoT zones so i have only depended no the HP in verdant brink to get them for the elite spec.. I’m not fond of all the verticality in the maps.. =/ and i’m not looking forward to the HP in AB and DS… I just wish getting Hero Points were easier..

Core tyria HP no problem but HoT not so much :<

Ariurotl.3718:

Seera.5916:

They want to explore the new lands and play the game with the new elite spec.

Not be rewarded with the new elite spec after exploring and playing the new expansion pack.

Exactly. Couldn’t have put it better myself.

This sort of thinking is really sad to see. It completely trivialises the character progression within the new expansions. As it is you can collect all the current hero points in the game and be able to unlock the majority of the new elite spec, assuming they continue with the 250 point unlock cost. Masteries are account bound already, which makes them a bit too “fire-and-forget”.

It reminds me of a time before release back in 2012. People would complain that they couldn’t have a L80 instantly on 25th August 2012, they would complain that they couldn’t get everything unlocked from the get go. It is so very sad to see. Now you can get an instant L80 and I think the game is worse off for it.

Speaking more generally, I’ve met a few people in game over the last few months who have bought the game, or come back after a very long break. They pop a L80 boost. Stand around asking what there is to do and within a week you never see them log in again. So what does getting everything unlocked get you? It gets you even less to work for and no idea of what you want to do. Levelling slowly and unlocking skills and traits at a slower pace means that you generate aspirations as you play and by the time you get to L80 you actually know what you want to work towards.

[Sarcasm]If they were to trivialise elite specialisations by making them unlocked for everyone who bought their relative XPacs then they should definitely make all legendaries unlocked on all accounts so we don’t need to work for those either. I can’t be bothered to work for legendary armour so that would be sweeeeet.[/Sarcasm]

as long as PoF HP aren’t a nightmare to acquire as it was in HoT i’m fine.

But i really don’t think that locking the elite spec behind HP is a good experience for those of us who want to play PoF with the new elite specs and not after we had already played through PoF.

Then there are some who say that if we want to play the new elite specs as we play through PoF the first time that we should play WvW for proofs of heroics,

but what if i don’t want to play WvW?

and i don’t want to “hunt” for HP in HoT and PoF before i can finally start PoF for real with my new elite spec? us PvEr’s should also have an option to acquire the new elite spec without having to “farm” 250 or so HP.

Perhaps let us respec the HP we already have? and put those points into the new elite? or have HP around the map which cost 1 or 5 and easier to get to?

not all of us are that enthusiastic to go into the new expac and move from location to location to get HP without even having a chance to explore the new zones at a leisurely pace and that’s really unfair!

Sarie.1630:

Ariurotl.3718:

Seera.5916:

They want to explore the new lands and play the game with the new elite spec.

Not be rewarded with the new elite spec after exploring and playing the new expansion pack.

Exactly. Couldn’t have put it better myself.

This sort of thinking is really sad to see. It completely trivialises the character progression within the new expansions. As it is you can collect all the current hero points in the game and be able to unlock the majority of the new elite spec, assuming they continue with the 250 point unlock cost. Masteries are account bound already, which makes them a bit too “fire-and-forget”.

It reminds me of a time before release back in 2012. People would complain that they couldn’t have a L80 instantly on 25th August 2012, they would complain that they couldn’t get everything unlocked from the get go. It is so very sad to see. Now you can get an instant L80 and I think the game is worse off for it.

Speaking more generally, I’ve met a few people in game over the last few months who have bought the game, or come back after a very long break. They pop a L80 boost. Stand around asking what there is to do and within a week you never see them log in again. So what does getting everything unlocked get you? It gets you even less to work for and no idea of what you want to do. Levelling slowly and unlocking skills and traits at a slower pace means that you generate aspirations as you play and by the time you get to L80 you actually know what you want to work towards.

[Sarcasm]If they were to trivialise elite specialisations by making them unlocked for everyone who bought their relative XPacs then they should definitely make all legendaries unlocked on all accounts so we don’t need to work for those either. I can’t be bothered to work for legendary armour so that would be sweeeeet.[/Sarcasm]

I honestly think the bigger problem is that there’s no real progression with elite specs. If you slot them in before you master them, you’re just gimping yourself, so it “forces” you to keep it on the backburner until you have it fully unlocked.

I don’t know what the best solution is, but I definitely see that as a design problem they should try to iron out.

I dont know, currently i have 359 HP on my ranger. Ive done all the HP challenges across tyria, including the ones in HoT and i think ive done maybe 2 in WvW. Unless the new elites cost more than that, which i doubt…i really cant understand this line of thought..granted even out of my 12 characters i really only play one, it doesnt seem that bad.

Dante.1763:

I dont know, currently i have 359 HP on my ranger. Ive done all the HP challenges across tyria, including the ones in HoT and i think ive done maybe 2 in WvW. Unless the new elites cost more than that, which i doubt…i really cant understand this line of thought..granted even out of my 12 characters i really only play one, it doesnt seem that bad.

No, perhaps you don’t understand our line of thought because you don’t see the many HP scattered across HoT as unobtainable but a challange and that may be fun for you to go out in HoT zones and collect all the HP

but for some of us it’s too much.. i for one am disabled/handicapped i have problem with depth perception so for me it’s difficult to get those HP.. this game is not too friendly towards casuals as i’m starting to realize.

AncientYs.8613:

No, perhaps you don’t understand our line of thought because you don’t see the many HP scattered across HoT as unobtainable but a challange and that may be fun for you to go out in HoT zones and collect all the HP

but for some of us it’s too much.. i for one am disabled/handicapped i have problem with depth perception so for me it’s difficult to get those HP.. this game is not too friendly towards casuals as i’m starting to realize.

Sorry, for the longest time they where unobtainable for me. Dont just assume that because i have everything out there that it was easy for me. i asked for a lot of help, but from the guilds im in, and in map chat, i got more than a few portals to some of the ones that are a pain to get to as well. Thankfully, the GW2 community is very friendly. i like a challenge, but some of them cannot be soloed, or even accomplished with a group of two. HoT was by far the most painful time ive had in playing this game, ever, because of constant bouts of motion sickness while playing in the zones, and from what ive seen of PoF the new maps are going to be less like HoT and a bit more like the core maps, i dont know if all of them are that way, but i believe its highly likely.

GW2 is also one of the most casual games out there on the market, and yes having a disability like that sucks awfully, my mother has arthritis in her wrists and she cant do some of the content in GW2 at all, and some of it she needs a bit of help getting there , though she wont admit it, and at the end of a day of playing her hands kill her.

Dante.1763:

AncientYs.8613:

No, perhaps you don’t understand our line of thought because you don’t see the many HP scattered across HoT as unobtainable but a challange and that may be fun for you to go out in HoT zones and collect all the HP

but for some of us it’s too much.. i for one am disabled/handicapped i have problem with depth perception so for me it’s difficult to get those HP.. this game is not too friendly towards casuals as i’m starting to realize.

Sorry, for the longest time they where unobtainable for me. Dont just assume that because i have everything out there that it was easy for me. i asked for a lot of help, but from the guilds im in, and in map chat, i got more than a few portals to some of the ones that are a pain to get to as well. Thankfully, the GW2 community is very friendly. i like a challenge, but some of them cannot be soloed, or even accomplished with a group of two. HoT was by far the most painful time ive had in playing this game, ever, because of constant bouts of motion sickness while playing in the zones, and from what ive seen of PoF the new maps are going to be less like HoT and a bit more like the core maps, i dont know if all of them are that way, but i believe its highly likely.

GW2 is also one of the most casual games out there on the market, and yes having a disability like that sucks awfully, my mother has arthritis in her wrists and she cant do some of the content in GW2 at all, and some of it she needs a bit of help getting there , though she wont admit it, and at the end of a day of playing her hands kill her.

First of all i apologize, i didn’t mean to assume anything it’s just that i have encountered alot who generally are ok with the HP in HoT the way they are.

Second i must admit i also got some help (mainly teleport to friend) along the way in HoT maps to get the HP i need, it was utterly frustrating. I believe since PoF will be set in the desert that it won’t have the problems that the zones in HoT had and thus eliminating most of the problems i had acquireing the hPs.

Lastly i am sorry to hear about your mother, living with a handicap is never easy but in a game it is more apparant as to how bad it can become.

I wish no ill will towards anyone here about the game or the challanges that lie therein i am just voicing my opinion and the experience i had and i truely hope that with PoF the PvE experience will be better.

AncientYs.8613:

Linken.6345:

There is another option go out in the open world and complete hero challenges in core and hot.
Save them up and you will have about 257 extra ones to pump into your new spec.

I never liked the layout of HoT zones so i have only depended no the HP in verdant brink to get them for the elite spec.. I’m not fond of all the verticality in the maps.. =/ and i’m not looking forward to the HP in AB and DS… I just wish getting Hero Points were easier..

Core tyria HP no problem but HoT not so much :<

Right now there are frequent HP trains running. I don’t know when they tend to start (at dawn in VB maybe? Or when a commander feels like it?) but I’ve run along with several that have had very helpful mesmer commanders who ran everyone along paths that got them to the HP without needing more than the basic mobility masteries (updrafts, mushrooms, wallows, exalted markings) and were very patient with stragglers.

Check LFG>Open World>HoTMapOfYourChoice to spot the squads. You may not always get in at the beginning, and if you don’t have the wp’s you may need a tele to friend or two so as to get to where the commander is, but once in the group you’ll have a big zerg protecting you and beating up the challenge HPs. All you have to do is stick to the commander like glue unless there is a “stay here” order and tag things enough to get credit.

Einlanzer.1627:

I honestly think the bigger problem is that there’s no real progression with elite specs. If you slot them in before you master them, you’re just gimping yourself, so it “forces” you to keep it on the backburner until you have it fully unlocked.

I don’t know what the best solution is, but I definitely see that as a design problem they should try to iron out.

They specifically addressed this by making so the first 5 unlocks get you all the way down the middle of the tree this time, instead of doing all the minors, then all the majors, etc. as in HoT. This is specifically in response to exactly the complaint you are making about how HoT did it. I wish they would go back and reorder the HoT specs this way too for new players.

Dante.1763:

I dont know, currently i have 359 HP on my ranger. Ive done all the HP challenges across tyria, including the ones in HoT and i think ive done maybe 2 in WvW. Unless the new elites cost more than that, which i doubt…

Well, the HoT elite specs did cost more than you could have possibly earned in core… and that was after Hero Point cost reduction that was a result of players’ backlash. And the reason was that Anet specifically didn’t want players to start playing especs on the launch day.
So, yeah, if their old reasoning still influences their decisions, expect either the cost to be greater than your 359 HP, or some other locks in place.

That would of course meant that they didn’t learn the lesson then, but it wouldn’t be surprising – Anet can be really stubborn sometimes.

Astralporing.1957:

Well, the HoT elite specs did cost more than you could have possibly earned in core… and that was after Hero Point cost reduction that was a result of players’ backlash. And the reason was that Anet specifically didn’t want players to start playing especs on the launch day.
So, yeah, if their old reasoning still influences their decisions, expect either the cost to be greater than your 359 HP, or some other locks in place.

That would of course meant that they didn’t learn the lesson then, but it wouldn’t be surprising – Anet can be really stubborn sometimes.

They did yes, but elite specs cost 250 each to unlock currently, thats a large chunk of hero points. theyd have to add 150 to the cost of them to make it so that i had to go do HPs again, which..i mean, im going to anyways because i refuse to have the entire game not mapped on my ranger(which even though i hate just about everything about the new elite spec we got, im still gonna get it).

Honestly it’ll hurt only new players if they make it require hero points. I don’t do repeatable HP’s or anything special and I have 350+ just sitting around that I’ve accumulated over time. So unless they’re a NEW kind of HP the only people that will be dissuaded from playing are new players.

If they put it behind skill points I would hope they make the skillpoints as easily achieved as the normal world the new specs should not be extremely difficult to find or achieve!

Well, personally I want it locked behind as many content as possible, also I’d like to see different type of hero points (like maybe call them purple hero points) so you can’t use normal hero points but move your lazy kitten fill maps and grab every single one hero point you spot on the map.
Why?
Because it is agains logic and any possible lore to make you unlock unknown content without even participating in it, it is stupid!!!
If you don’t want to unlock content but enjoy elite spec – go play pvp!!!
I can’t understand WvW players, you need some eq there anyways so you have to farm just like regular PvE guys so what is the problem?

I’d also like to get into the elite spec early on in the expansion, to enjoy new lands with a new perspective. The progression is in learning to master the new spec. That’s neither ‘sad’ nor ‘stupid’. @Sarie/Rong.

I think they’ve found a decent compromise. You unlock an adept, a master, and then the grand master trait instead of all adept, then all master, and then all grand master traits.

So you might not get the ideal build right away, but you’ll quickly be able to get a complete build.

Ahlen.7591:

Honestly it’ll hurt only new players if they make it require hero points. I don’t do repeatable HP’s or anything special and I have 350+ just sitting around that I’ve accumulated over time. So unless they’re a NEW kind of HP the only people that will be dissuaded from playing are new players.

I disagree with the logic here. Lets think about this.

1. Should ANET go with the option proposed here of either PoF specific hero points, comparable to HoT specific Mastery points, that would be the only currency usable for elite specs, BOTH new players and vets will be forced through the exact same amount of content to unlock and use the elite specs.

2. If ANET follows the pattern established with HoT, Core hero points as well as HoT hero points can be spent to unlock the PoF elite spec, so veterans will be able to unlock some or all of an elite spec based on existing efforts done ahead of time. New players will still have to go through the same amount of PoF content to unlock elite specializations as they would with option #1.

3. With either option 1 or option 2, the new player plays through the same amount of content in order to unlock the elite specialization, therefore neither option penalizes the new player for being new. However, option 1 DOES penalize veteran players by invalidating their work over the past 2 years developing their characters.

4. Furthermore, option 1 penalizes the new player as well. Should the new player have chosen to purchase both HoT and PoF, they are limited to only playing in PoF to advance PoF elite specializations AND only playing in HoT to advance HoT specializations when option 2 would permit time spent in PoF to also ultimately provide partial advancement for HoT elite specializations yet unfinished (because they are after all, a new player). With an anticipated reduction of population on HoT maps, it is entirely possible that some HPs may become much more difficult to attain.

5. Finally, for those who want the pure and unadulterated experience of unlocking the elite specialization solely through PoF play there are still two options: first create a new character (new slots came with 2 of the packages, or were just on sale), or secondly simply choose to only spent hero points earned in PoF and simply do not use any possessed prior to going into PoF.

*Edited for clarification

Rong.5470:

Well, personally I want it locked behind as many content as possible, also I’d like to see different type of hero points (like maybe call them purple hero points) so you can’t use normal hero points but move your lazy kitten fill maps and grab every single one hero point you spot on the map.
Why?
Because it is agains logic and any possible lore to make you unlock unknown content without even participating in it, it is stupid!!!
If you don’t want to unlock content but enjoy elite spec – go play pvp!!!
I can’t understand WvW players, you need some eq there anyways so you have to farm just like regular PvE guys so what is the problem?

While there are several faulty assumptions here, I will only address a couple.

First, it is inaccurate to assume that only WvW players want to unlock elite specializations early. I know many primarily PvE players that are in the process of storing up hero points in anticipation of being able to use them in PoF. HP Trains are going almost non-stop in the HoT maps with many others doing this same thing. Indeed since very active WvW players have another option to use to unlock HPs without ever doing an HP train, (I make my own assumption here) at least some significant portion of those HP trains are other PvE players.

Secondly, at least the PvE players I know personally do not desire to unlock elite specs without playing the new content, but rather to appreciate the new environment content while simultaneously taking advantage of and exploring the full scope of the new elite specializations. This is the essence of @Zoltar’s argument as well.

Different players have different ways of enjoying the game. For those who desire a lore driven play style that limiting the rate of unlocking, fine, don’t unlock elite specs until you feel you have sufficiently explored the PoF content. However, epithets notwithstanding, ANET is not and should not be limited to the scope of your vision for PoF. They have to take into consideration how to appeal to a much more diverse group of players than simply yourself.

*Edited for spelling

There’s no problem, just have new set of HPs that are scaled to the requirement of the new elite spec. It keeps the maps alive, and once you do 1 route on a character it’s a cinch to do it on the rest.

As of now, you hit level 80 with core, you get all core skills. You go to HOT that has +10hp points, do like 2-5 hours, get your hot elite skill leveled. POF, same deal, let’s say it’s 450, maybe hps give +15, or whatever, you do 1/2-2/3 of those gets your POF elite.

Simple, easy and fair. If you don’t buy HOT, then you don’t need hot HPs for hot elite, same with pof. Whatever you do you have the same access relative to what you have bought. That’s why they stressed if you don’t need anything in hot to play POF, but really if you even plan to play this game for any decent time, HOT is so cheap anyway, but you still don’t need it at all for POF.

Despond.2174:

There’s no problem, just have new set of HPs that are scaled to the requirement of the new elite spec. It keeps the maps alive, and once you do 1 route on a character it’s a cinch to do it on the rest.

As of now, you hit level 80 with core, you get all core skills. You go to HOT that has +10hp points, do like 2-5 hours, get your hot elite skill leveled. POF, same deal, let’s say it’s 450, maybe hps give +15, or whatever, you do 1/2-2/3 of those gets your POF elite.

Simple, easy and fair. If you don’t buy HOT, then you don’t need hot HPs for hot elite, same with pof. Whatever you do you have the same access relative to what you have bought. That’s why they stressed if you don’t need anything in hot to play POF, but really if you even plan to play this game for any decent time, HOT is so cheap anyway, but you still don’t need it at all for POF.

Go back and read my first post on reasons why this exact thing only penalizes both veterans and new players. This solution is not the “fair”, it intentionally marginalizes the work of veterans in favor of an artificial “equality” that in no way benefits new players and only penalizes those who have a longer history with the game.

You will need to get to the mastery points, which will be locked behind an exp grind whilst you acquire the new jumping skills (opp, I mean ‘mounts’ LOL). So, grind out the exp to get the mount to be able to reach the mastery to unlock the skill to get the elite.

That’s my guess. And judging from what I have seen of the new map (and that last one, with waypoints you have to farm to unlock), Super Marios fans will be drooling as it’s one big platform game.

It’s a shame really. Relying on gimmicks and platforms to disguise the lack of real content where you engage the enemy, group up to defeat harder content etc. Instead we get platforms, time gates, JPs, and jump skills to bounce around the map like Super Mario.

It’s funny reading this thread as it illustrated to me just how hard it is for Arenanet to keep everyone happy. They really do a good job as it is impossible to keep everyone happy. I’m cool either way they go TBH I love PVE content in this game so that’s fine with me if its locked in the story steps and map content like HOT.