Guild Wars 2

Let me be clear from the start.I talk specifically for dungeon bosses.I’m not interested in open world Elites and champions at all.Dungeons and open world are two whole different things.And should stay that way.Separating the two modes must be common thing in every MMO including GW2.

Why the hell is this buff even in the game?I really like in other MMOs that i can interrupt some of the boss’s spells.I really miss this aspect in GW2.
When i stun or interrupt the boss he receives defiance buff and that prevents me from future CCs.What a crap design decision.
Are Anet not capable of programing good boss’s mechanics that can include interrupts and are not being avoided like they are something nasty lol…

@Tigirius - Thanks for noticing too. Defiance pretty much breaks the role system that Anet said they’d use.
Got CC? Forget it Defiance….
Got interrupts? Forget it Defiance…
Then on top of everything they either add bosses that instakill so Got Heals? Forget it they’ll just swat you even tho you have all toughness gear on. Or they could have a ton of hitpoints and do almost 0 damage as a boss.
Oh and don’t forget that heals hardly do anything as it is. So much for support role.
The thing is this has been talked about at length by major personalities on the internet who review games. I remember Wooden Potatoes putting together several videos talking at length about how to fix combat in PVE. Completely ignored like everything else.

@Wethospu - this guy has some really cool ideas

1. Make interrupts cause full cooldowns for PvE enemies
2. Reduce one stack (5 players ? 4 stacks)
3. Encounter design
   * Add special attacks to some bosses which temporarily remove defiance.
   * Add devastating special attacks to bosses which are hard to deal with blocks and dodges.
   * Add strong defensive skills to bosses which have to be interrupted if you want to kill the boss fast.
   * No defiance but fight against 3 – 5 (weaker) bosses at the same time
   * No defiance but use stability instead
   * No defiance but give boss frequent stun breaks

@Manuhell - Imho, one of the problems with defiance is that CC skills aren’t balanced upon it. Quite obviously, as they’re balanced for pvp, and there is no defiance on players.
This ends up greatly weakening their effects, without anything to compensate for it.
The solution should be to rebalance those skill according to the game mode, giving them bonus effects in pve to compensate for the reduced effects of CC.

@Rauedri - Out of the MMOs I’ve poked my head into, interrupts are a major thing for raiding. They need to be timed just right or the party wipes.(In WildStar, it’s actually a dps job that requires coordination. o_O) With that in mind, it does surprise me that ANet chose to make bosses absurdly resilient. The later, overpowered versions of defiant were even worse, preventing all CC from working. Boss Blitz in particular made me sad.

@CureForLiving - Probably referring to WoW (or maybe that’s just me projecting). Anyway from what I remember from my ICC days the encounters were either 10 man or 25 man, you’d have a handful of professions that’s could interrupt and the bosses would have well telegraphed abilities that needed to be interrupted (think three-toed tootsie since that’s basically what it was, look for the bar to appear spam interrupt continue). Think it was usually the tanks that did the interrupting (I was a warlock so I just mindlessly performed the same rotation over and over and over and over…).

So the bosses are somewhat of a challenge. If this did not exist, you could stun lock bosses/champs.

Ayrilana.1396:

So the bosses are somewhat of a challenge. If this did not exist, you could stun lock bosses/champs.

This only means that Anet are not able to programm a proper Boss’s mechanics.How can other MMOs can have interrupts but GW2 can’t?!?!I’m really interested to know.

It’s not as if most of them don’t get ‘locked’ in place by a zerg anyway, in spite of it. The only bosses that remain mobile through a fight are the ones that most people are afraid to melee.

I personally find that when trying to solo/duo champs, it makes it more fun and interesting that we can’t always lock them down using skills alone.

In the open world it’s for the best, but I feel like it’s overkill inside of dungeons.

Morsus.5106:

In the open world it’s for the best, but I feel like it’s overkill inside of dungeons.

Yes i feel the same.In dungeons that is just crappy programming.Not being able to interuppt the bosses inside the dungeon is….. i just don’t have words.In every other MMO that i have played bosses in dungeons have interuptable and non-interuptable spells.Only GW2 is missing that lol.Anet are being slopy.

moiraine.2753:

This only means that Anet are not able to programm a proper Boss’s mechanics.How can other MMOs can have interrupts but GW2 can’t?!?!I’m really interested to know.

What is a proper mechanic example or that you propose? What do they do different in other MMOs?

Taken from the GW2 Wiki:

“Defiance is an effect that grants immunity to most control effects. It is caused by Unshakable, an ability possessed by most champion and legendary rank enemies.
When a creature with the Unshakable effect is successfully affected by a control effect, the creature will gain a minimum of 3 stacks of defiance, but potentially many more depending on how many players are nearby, based on event scaling. Stacks of defiance can be removed with additional control effects, and once all stacks are removed, the creature is vulnerable to control effects once again, and the cycle repeats. When no stacks of defiance are present, a control skill can apply control to the creature, but it will also apply defiance, preventing further crowd control from being applied until removed. For example, interrupting will have no effect unless no defiance is present; if no defiance is present, the creature can be interrupted but this will immediately apply more defiance.”

So you can CC a boss, but you have to actually plan for it. In other words, you can’t easy-mode a boss by keeping it locked down. Ergo, more of a challenge and an interesting fight. It’s not sloppy programming. It just isn’t the easy mode you’re used to.

Well, in a way players can soft stun lock bosses, with Immobilize, unless they’re immune to soft CC effects.

Like Taidha Covington and some other bosses that can be rendered almost harmless (or completely harmless, due to bad design) with constant Immobilize appliance.

In a way, Unshakable is bad design choice, but also the mobs during the Unshakable boss, which are mostly simple mobs (which could be good for creating opportunities for using CC on other than just the boss).

Sethren.8472:

Taken from the GW2 Wiki:

“Defiance is an effect that grants immunity to most control effects. It is caused by Unshakable, an ability possessed by most champion and legendary rank enemies.
When a creature with the Unshakable effect is successfully affected by a control effect, the creature will gain a minimum of 3 stacks of defiance, but potentially many more depending on how many players are nearby, based on event scaling. Stacks of defiance can be removed with additional control effects, and once all stacks are removed, the creature is vulnerable to control effects once again, and the cycle repeats. When no stacks of defiance are present, a control skill can apply control to the creature, but it will also apply defiance, preventing further crowd control from being applied until removed. For example, interrupting will have no effect unless no defiance is present; if no defiance is present, the creature can be interrupted but this will immediately apply more defiance.”

So you can CC a boss, but you have to actually plan for it. In other words, you can’t easy-mode a boss by keeping it locked down. Ergo, more of a challenge and an interesting fight. It’s not sloppy programming. It just isn’t the easy mode you’re used to.

Sorry but i disagree with the easy mode you talk about.Lets take Kholer’s whirlwind attack for example.It can be interupted once and then you just keep dodging it.What is the difference if i interupt that attack or dodge it?I don’t take dmg in neither situation.Right now dodge has replaced the interupt.

In My opinion there must be 2 kind of spells just like in the rest in the MMO world. Some that have to be dodged.Those must be non-interuptable mechanics.And other that must be attacks that can be interrupted.
You can’t just put something that blocks the CC only because Anet don’t know how to deal with it properly.

Interrupts works for all the party. And you can’t dodge things like berserker abomination enrage. Long lasting cc like frost bow 5 are rewarding to pull out, especially on bosses like ooze in arah P1. The defiant system is good, it allows good parties to interrupt whatever they want, but it’s not a mindless cc spam.

The difference is that you you can stun lock bosses so that they don’t really attack at all. Imagine the hambow warrior in PvP being used in PvE minus the bow. There’s a big difference between interrupting and dodging.

Please enlighten us as to how you would fix the current mechanics rather than just say it’s bad programming or broken.

Ooo Abomination’s berzerker.I love this boss.Shooting with the gun is eactly like interupt.

moiraine.2753:

You can’t just put something that blocks the CC only because Anet don’t know how to deal with it properly.

It sounds more to me that you don’t understand how to deal with Defiant stacks. There’s a method to removing them, and it works just fine outside of large zerg scenarios.

moiraine.2753:

Sorry but i disagree with the easy mode you talk about.Lets take Kholer’s whirlwind attack for example.It can be interupted once and then you just keep dodging it.What is the difference if i interupt that attack or dodge it?I don’t take dmg in neither situation.Right now dodge has replaced the interupt.

Kholer, you speaking of dungeon content, there your party size is 5, which causes the boss have 5 stacks of defiance after successful CC, you just have to have party members to have a CC skill if possible, coordinate that your party members chip off the 5 defiance, so that you can use more powerful CC, like Skullcrack with Paralyzation Sigil.

Well, repeating myself:
In a way, Unshakable is bad design choice, but also the mobs during the Unshakable boss, which are mostly simple mobs (which could be good for creating opportunities for using CC on other than just the boss).

Ok let me ask then this.Why ONLY gw2 has such buff as defiance and no other MMO?

Can you stun lock bosses in other games so that they cannot attack? Since everyone likes to drag WoW into comparisons, can you stun lock whatever the most powerful WoW boss is so that you can just DPS it without any risk?

moiraine.2753:

Ooo Abomination’s berzerker.I love this boss.Shooting with the gun is eactly like interupt.

If you need gun in a 5 man party at abom, I don’t know what to say anymore.

Ayrilana.1396:

Can you stun lock bosses in other games so that they cannot attack? Since everyone likes to drag WoW into comparisons, can you stun lock whatever the most powerful WoW boss is so that you can just DPS it without any risk?

No you can’t stun lock it to death in other MMOs and that is exactly why i feel that Anet just made a band-aid fix with the defiace buff.Because they let slip the stun lockick bosses inside the game.

oxtred.7658:

moiraine.2753:

Ooo Abomination’s berzerker.I love this boss.Shooting with the gun is eactly like interupt.

If you need gun in a 5 man party at abom, I don’t know what to say anymore.

I never mentioned about 5 man party.You did that.The boss is perfectly soloable

moiraine.2753:

In My opinion there must be 2 kind of spells just like in the rest in the MMO world. Some that have to be dodged.Those must be non-interuptable mechanics.And other that must be attacks that can be interrupted.
You can’t just put something that blocks the CC only because Anet don’t know how to deal with it properly.

One can only dodge so often, and if the attacks are planned for your ability to dodge then why have Endurance.
There’s only so many devastating attacks to interrupt (or dodge), we have so many skills to stun (and break stuns) it would make the attack seem pointless.

Defiant is a team oriented mechanic.

So you can’t stun lock them to death in other games but you want to be able to do it in this game or am I not understanding you correctly. Defiance is a good mechanic and is unique for this game. All MMO’s do not have to be cookie cutters of each other.

Ayrilana.1396:

So you can’t stun lock them to death in other games but you want to be able to do it in this game or am I not understanding you correctly. Defiance is a good mechanic and is unique for this game. All MMO’s do not have to be cookie cutters of each other.

Well, he mentions that they shouldn’t be able to be stunlocked, and thus the Defiance is a “band-aid”.
So the boss creature is immune to all stuns, until they begin the animation for a skill that can only be dodged, or only interrupted. With the skills we have, this would be incredibly boring.

moiraine.2753:

Ok let me ask then this.Why ONLY gw2 has such buff as defiance and no other MMO?

Because other games just make them flat immune, unless it is part of the boss design.
Most games have instances that take into account the number of people and stun cooldowns.
Because another game has interrupt armor, which is like Defiance, but more fluid and based on unified player timing instead of lingering walls of immunity.

moiraine.2753:

Ayrilana.1396:

So the bosses are somewhat of a challenge. If this did not exist, you could stun lock bosses/champs.

This only means that Anet are not able to programm a proper Boss’s mechanics.How can other MMOs can have interrupts but GW2 can’t?!?!I’m really interested to know.

You can interrupt, it just requires teamwork.

the problem lies on the side of the people resetting defiance at the wrong time.

Read about how defiance works.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance

“For example, interrupting will have no effect unless no defiance is present; if no defiance is present, the creature can be interrupted but this will immediately apply more defiance. "

if people used cc attacks to whittle defiance down to zero, the next interrupt will hit.

Boneheart.3561:

Ayrilana.1396:

So you can’t stun lock them to death in other games but you want to be able to do it in this game or am I not understanding you correctly. Defiance is a good mechanic and is unique for this game. All MMO’s do not have to be cookie cutters of each other.

Well, he mentions that they shouldn’t be able to be stunlocked, and thus the Defiance is a “band-aid”.
So the boss creature is immune to all stuns, until they begin the animation for a skill that can only be dodged, or only interrupted. With the skills we have, this would be incredibly boring.

You exaplained exactly how the rest of the MMOs work.And yes that is what i want.I don’t understand why people can’t understand what i’m talking about.Has no one played Rift or SWTOR or WoW.I bet that even Wildstar will have interrupt mechanism.Only GW2 differs from every other MMO that i have played.Why Anet even let bosses to be stun locked is beyond me…
Yes i call the defiance a band- aid fix,because i feel it like such.I can’t say anything about ESO or Tera as i never played them.

GW2 doesn’t have to do what every other MMO does.

Ayrilana.1396:

GW2 doesn’t have to do what every other MMO does.

You are absolutely right.Lets change what is working for 10 years and make something new that is not working.’’Great’’ thinking.Just like what Anet did with the removal of the holy trinity…Yes it is working but is it better?In my opinion it’s not.(PvE wise)

As in every other Defiant related thread it boils down to …

• Learn to play issues
• Playing with crappy pugs

Change one of them and you will understand it.
It prevents stupid CC spamming in stanced content, so you have to work for it.

After playing the original GW as my first online game, and being able to interrupt bosses, I was shocked when I went on to other games and could not interrupt bosses at all. When I got to GW2 I could interrupt bosses sometime. So, what other games is the OP on about where bosses could be interrupted? I sure haven’t seen one.

That said, I’m with Rauderi in thinking that the Interrupt Armor concept is a better mechanic than Defiance.

moiraine.2753:

Ayrilana.1396:

GW2 doesn’t have to do what every other MMO does.

You are absolutely right.Lets change what is working for 10 years and make something new that is not working.’’Great’’ thinking.Just like what Anet did with the removal of the holy trinity…Yes it is working but is it better?In my opinion it’s not.(PvE wise)

This is obviously a personal preference issue. You don’t like it. That’s perfectly fine, but that doesn’t make it bad or lazy programming. It just makes it not for you. While you may not like it, there are many other players (obviously) who love it. I personally love not having to heal 5 people while never being thanked, always being blamed for the tank’s/dps mistakes because it was obviously my fault for their mistakes, and on and on it goes.

Just because something worked for 10 years does not make it the only good way to build a game. Same with the defiance mechanic. You could give it a chance and try to learn a new way of playing, or not. What it boils down to is you have your opinion, and others have theirs. Neither side is going to change the others’ minds. No use trying.

IndigoSundown.5419:

After playing the original GW as my first online game, and being able to interrupt bosses, I was shocked when I went on to other games and could not interrupt bosses at all. When I got to GW2 I could interrupt bosses sometime. So, what other games is the OP on about where bosses could be interrupted? I sure haven’t seen one.

That said, I’m with Rauderi in thinking that the Interrupt Armor concept is a better mechanic than Defiance.

Thankee, Indigo

Out of the MMOs I’ve poked my head into, interrupts are a major thing for raiding. They need to be timed just right or the party wipes, and that’s usually a job for the tank. (In WildStar, it’s actually a dps job that requires coordination. o_O) With that in mind, it does surprise me that ANet chose to make bosses absurdly resilient. The later, overpowered versions of defiant were even worse, preventing all CC from working. Boss Blitz in particular made me sad.

Of course, something has to be done to prevent stun-spamming. Or at least put it into a context that 50 people can stun-slap 15 elites and actually feel like they’ve done something, instead of 50 people chipping away pointlessly at 1 boss with 50 stacks. Adding elites to mob encounters certainly helped, but it doesn’t solve bosses.

Interrupt armor works out more cleanly, because it refreshes over time, and I think rather quickly for a boss. To translate it to GW2, if a zerg just mashes stuns whenever they come off cooldown, they’ll never break a boss, because it would take 20-50 people doing it at just the right moment for it to matter. So instead of one person messing it up for everyone (being a “bad pug” or whatever), knowledgeable and coordinated players are rewarded by being able to execute stun properly.

Defiance does (in small encounters) add a bit of tactical thinking, since managing defiance stacks can add a new aspect to an encounter. However you’ll obviously not notice this because A) most small encounters (such as dungeons) can be breezed through without much effort (so it’s not a consideration) and B ) most players don’t really know they can still interrupt abilities (since most players just spam dps).

Morsus.5106:

In the open world it’s for the best, but I feel like it’s overkill inside of dungeons.

Deviance isn’t a great solution but it’s probably one of the better solutions to address massive zergs (you’d have the boss being perma-stunned otherwise).

moiraine.2753:

Yes i feel the same.In dungeons that is just crappy programming.

How about we say design instead of programming, since that’s technically what it is.

Boneheart.3561:

moiraine.2753:

This only means that Anet are not able to programm a proper Boss’s mechanics.How can other MMOs can have interrupts but GW2 can’t?!?!I’m really interested to know.

What is a proper mechanic example or that you propose? What do they do different in other MMOs?

Probably referring to WoW (or maybe that’s just me projecting). Anyway from what I remember from my ICC days the encounters were either 10 man or 25 man, you’d have a handful of professions that’s could interrupt and the bosses would have well telegraphed abilities that needed to be interrupted (think three-toed tootsie since that’s basically what it was, look for the bar to appear spam interrupt continue). Think it was usually the tanks that did the interrupting (I was a warlock so I just mindlessly performed the same rotation over and over and over and over…).

FrostSpectre.4198:

moiraine.2753:

Sorry but i disagree with the easy mode you talk about.Lets take Kholer’s whirlwind attack for example.It can be interupted once and then you just keep dodging it.What is the difference if i interupt that attack or dodge it?I don’t take dmg in neither situation.Right now dodge has replaced the interupt.

Kholer, you speaking of dungeon content, there your party size is 5, which causes the boss have 5 stacks of defiance after successful CC, you just have to have party members to have a CC skill if possible, coordinate that your party members chip off the 5 defiance, so that you can use more powerful CC, like Skullcrack with Paralyzation Sigil.

Well, repeating myself:
In a way, Unshakable is bad design choice, but also the mobs during the Unshakable boss, which are mostly simple mobs (which could be good for creating opportunities for using CC on other than just the boss).

Pretty much this. But like I said, interrupts aren’t necessary and aren’t really a thing. They’re like combos, you technically can do a combo but no one does (knowingly).

Ayrilana.1396:

Can you stun lock bosses in other games so that they cannot attack? Since everyone likes to drag WoW into comparisons, can you stun lock whatever the most powerful WoW boss is so that you can just DPS it without any risk?

Nay, stun is basically useless until the little bar pops up.

Ayrilana.1396:

So you can’t stun lock them to death in other games but you want to be able to do it in this game or am I not understanding you correctly. Defiance is a good mechanic and is unique for this game. All MMO’s do not have to be cookie cutters of each other.

I think the idea seems to be rather to make stunning easier (i.e. don’t have to worry about the whole managing stacks business).

moiraine.2753:

Ayrilana.1396:

GW2 doesn’t have to do what every other MMO does.

You are absolutely right.Lets change what is working for 10 years and make something new that is not working.’’Great’’ thinking.Just like what Anet did with the removal of the holy trinity…Yes it is working but is it better?In my opinion it’s not.(PvE wise)

I love not having the holy trinity. The only downside is that it removes some teamwork but you know not having to rely on a healer to keep my alive and a tank to keep the angry away from me kinda gives me a sense of agency.

moiraine.2753:

Yes i feel the same.In dungeons that is just crappy programming.Not being able to interuppt the bosses inside the dungeon is….. i just don’t have words.In every other MMO that i have played bosses in dungeons have interuptable and non-interuptable spells.Only GW2 is missing that lol.Anet are being slopy.

No.

You may like interrupting bosses, you might enjoy it as a mechanic, but having a restricted window for interruption on champions and above is not sloppy design. It’s intended to reduce chain-CC options.

“But in WoW they have bosses that can’t be CC’d, but you can still interrupt them with things like a Rogue’s Kick skill!”

That’s true. And there’s a reason for that: in WoW’s design, you need to be able to interrupt certain abilities in order to not fail. You need to interrupt that boss casting the This Will Immediately Kill The Tank spell or the tank will be immediately killed and your raid wipes, game over. It’s a necessary mechanic.

In GW2, the “tank” (which actually just means whoever has agro at the time given GW2’s class design) can just roll and avoid the big nasty thing that would have otherwise killed him.

You don’t need interrupt-specific abilities in GW2 because you have evasive options instead. Options that you don’t have in WoW or most games like it. They have passive evasion and parrying and blocking, but if you’re targeted by an ability that can’t be blocked or parried or evaded that way, you need to interrupt it or you’re in trouble. In GW2 these things don’t exist outside of encounter-specific abilities which are usually counteracted by encounter-specific items or environmental things. In other words, in instances where interrupts are necessary, they’re provided.

Most of the time, they’re not necessary.

But why adding sometimes a huge amount of Defiance on certain enemies?
I think I saw a Champion Risen at Tequatl with 71(!) stacks of it at Laser Turret/Generator defense.

Who the hell bothers with even trying to get those stacks down, anyway?

Tequatl is an event that tends to have upwards of 80 players hitting it at a time. Against that kind of zerg, the usual amount of defiance stacks wouldn’t even be noticeable.

That’s due to scaling and most of the time you have more than enough people to burn it down.

Ayrilana, I am really attracted to your rationality.

Shjade.4697:

moiraine.2753:

Yes i feel the same.In dungeons that is just crappy programming.Not being able to interuppt the bosses inside the dungeon is….. i just don’t have words.In every other MMO that i have played bosses in dungeons have interuptable and non-interuptable spells.Only GW2 is missing that lol.Anet are being slopy.

No.

You may like interrupting bosses, you might enjoy it as a mechanic, but having a restricted window for interruption on champions and above is not sloppy design. It’s intended to reduce chain-CC options.

“But in WoW they have bosses that can’t be CC’d, but you can still interrupt them with things like a Rogue’s Kick skill!”

That’s true. And there’s a reason for that: in WoW’s design, you need to be able to interrupt certain abilities in order to not fail. You need to interrupt that boss casting the This Will Immediately Kill The Tank spell or the tank will be immediately killed and your raid wipes, game over. It’s a necessary mechanic.

In GW2, the “tank” (which actually just means whoever has agro at the time given GW2’s class design) can just roll and avoid the big nasty thing that would have otherwise killed him.

You don’t need interrupt-specific abilities in GW2 because you have evasive options instead. Options that you don’t have in WoW or most games like it. They have passive evasion and parrying and blocking, but if you’re targeted by an ability that can’t be blocked or parried or evaded that way, you need to interrupt it or you’re in trouble. In GW2 these things don’t exist outside of encounter-specific abilities which are usually counteracted by encounter-specific items or environmental things. In other words, in instances where interrupts are necessary, they’re provided.

Most of the time, they’re not necessary.

You make a good point Shjade

CureForLiving.5360:

Defiance does (in small encounters) add a bit of tactical thinking, since managing defiance stacks can add a new aspect to an encounter. However you’ll obviously not notice this because A) most small encounters (such as dungeons) can be breezed through without much effort (so it’s not a consideration) and B ) most players don’t really know they can still interrupt abilities (since most players just spam dps).

Morsus.5106:

In the open world it’s for the best, but I feel like it’s overkill inside of dungeons.

Deviance isn’t a great solution but it’s probably one of the better solutions to address massive zergs (you’d have the boss being perma-stunned otherwise).

moiraine.2753:

Yes i feel the same.In dungeons that is just crappy programming.

How about we say design instead of programming, since that’s technically what it is.

Boneheart.3561:

moiraine.2753:

This only means that Anet are not able to programm a proper Boss’s mechanics.How can other MMOs can have interrupts but GW2 can’t?!?!I’m really interested to know.

What is a proper mechanic example or that you propose? What do they do different in other MMOs?

Probably referring to WoW (or maybe that’s just me projecting). Anyway from what I remember from my ICC days the encounters were either 10 man or 25 man, you’d have a handful of professions that’s could interrupt and the bosses would have well telegraphed abilities that needed to be interrupted (think three-toed tootsie since that’s basically what it was, look for the bar to appear spam interrupt continue). Think it was usually the tanks that did the interrupting (I was a warlock so I just mindlessly performed the same rotation over and over and over and over…).

FrostSpectre.4198:

moiraine.2753:

Sorry but i disagree with the easy mode you talk about.Lets take Kholer’s whirlwind attack for example.It can be interupted once and then you just keep dodging it.What is the difference if i interupt that attack or dodge it?I don’t take dmg in neither situation.Right now dodge has replaced the interupt.

Kholer, you speaking of dungeon content, there your party size is 5, which causes the boss have 5 stacks of defiance after successful CC, you just have to have party members to have a CC skill if possible, coordinate that your party members chip off the 5 defiance, so that you can use more powerful CC, like Skullcrack with Paralyzation Sigil.

Well, repeating myself:
In a way, Unshakable is bad design choice, but also the mobs during the Unshakable boss, which are mostly simple mobs (which could be good for creating opportunities for using CC on other than just the boss).

Pretty much this. But like I said, interrupts aren’t necessary and aren’t really a thing. They’re like combos, you technically can do a combo but no one does (knowingly).

Ayrilana.1396:

Can you stun lock bosses in other games so that they cannot attack? Since everyone likes to drag WoW into comparisons, can you stun lock whatever the most powerful WoW boss is so that you can just DPS it without any risk?

Nay, stun is basically useless until the little bar pops up.

Ayrilana.1396:

So you can’t stun lock them to death in other games but you want to be able to do it in this game or am I not understanding you correctly. Defiance is a good mechanic and is unique for this game. All MMO’s do not have to be cookie cutters of each other.

I think the idea seems to be rather to make stunning easier (i.e. don’t have to worry about the whole managing stacks business).

moiraine.2753:

Ayrilana.1396:

GW2 doesn’t have to do what every other MMO does.

You are absolutely right.Lets change what is working for 10 years and make something new that is not working.’’Great’’ thinking.Just like what Anet did with the removal of the holy trinity…Yes it is working but is it better?In my opinion it’s not.(PvE wise)

I love not having the holy trinity. The only downside is that it removes some teamwork but you know not having to rely on a healer to keep my alive and a tank to keep the angry away from me kinda gives me a sense of agency.

You make some really good arguments too

Imho, one of the problems with defiance is that CC skills aren’t balanced upon it. Quite obviously, as they’re balanced for pvp, and there is no defiance on players.

This ends up greatly weakening their effects, without anything to compensate for it.

The solution should be to rebalance those skill according to the game mode, giving them bonus effects in pve to compensate for the reduced effects of CC.

CC skills are balanced for it. If boss uses area attack everyone has to dodge. If you want to interrupt it everyone must interrupt.

Defiance stacks work very well if you consider how simple the system is. All you need is a little bit of coordination and planning.

The real problem is that interrupts don’t put most skills on full cooldown. This makes interrupts very ineffective because the interrupted skill can be used again after few seconds. If enemies got full cooldowns interrupts would become pretty useful.

The second problem is that there is no need for interrupts. Other forms of defense (evading, blocking, reflects) are much easier to use. Content is so easy that you can get through even after messing up a lot. Enemies don’t have powerful defensive skills to keep them up or really devastating offensive skills which would wipe half of the party unless interrupted.

I would also reduce defiant stacks by one so 5 players would need 5 interrupts per interruption.

moiraine.2753:

Let me be clear from the start.I talk specifically for dungeon bosses.I’m not interested in open world Elites and champions at all.Dungeons and open world are two whole different things.And should stay that way.Separating the two modes must be common thing in every MMO including GW2.

Why the hell is this buff even in the game?I really like in other MMOs that i can interrupt some of the boss’s spells.I really miss this aspect in GW2.
When i stun or interrupt the boss he receives defiance buff and that prevents me from future CCs.What a crap design decision.
Are Anet not capable of programing good boss’s mechanics that can include interrupts and are not being avoided like they are something nasty lol…

@CureForLiving - Probably referring to WoW (or maybe that’s just me projecting). Anyway from what I remember from my ICC days the encounters were either 10 man or 25 man, you’d have a handful of professions that’s could interrupt and the bosses would have well telegraphed abilities that needed to be interrupted (think three-toed tootsie since that’s basically what it was, look for the bar to appear spam interrupt continue). Think it was usually the tanks that did the interrupting (I was a warlock so I just mindlessly performed the same rotation over and over and over and over…).

@Rauedri - Out of the MMOs I’ve poked my head into, interrupts are a major thing for raiding. They need to be timed just right or the party wipes.(In WildStar, it’s actually a dps job that requires coordination. o_O) With that in mind, it does surprise me that ANet chose to make bosses absurdly resilient. The later, overpowered versions of defiant were even worse, preventing all CC from working. Boss Blitz in particular made me sad.

Manuhell – Imho, one of the problems with defiance is that CC skills aren’t balanced upon it. Quite obviously, as they’re balanced for pvp, and there is no defiance on players.
This ends up greatly weakening their effects, without anything to compensate for it.
The solution should be to rebalance those skill according to the game mode, giving them bonus effects in pve to compensate for the reduced effects of CC.

without a limit, you can basically have a boss on permanent kitten face, being completely unable to attack forever.

considering how low you can get cooldowns on some CC, and have multiple ones at once, with multiple people at once, it seems fair

it’s sort of like dungeon nerd rage, say you were a boss, and someone knocked you flat on your butt, wouldnt you get extremely P Od, and just go hulk smash on them? nothings gonna stop you for a while right?

Wethospu.6437:

CC skills are balanced for it. If boss uses area attack everyone has to dodge. If you want to interrupt it everyone must interrupt.

Defiance stacks work very well if you consider how simple the system is. All you need is a little bit of coordination and planning.

The real problem is that interrupts don’t put most skills on full cooldown. This makes interrupts very ineffective because the interrupted skill can be used again after few seconds. If enemies got full cooldowns interrupts would become pretty useful.

The second problem is that there is no need for interrupts. Other forms of defense (evading, blocking, reflects) are much easier to use. Content is so easy that you can get through even after messing up a lot. Enemies don’t have powerful defensive skills to keep them up or really devastating offensive skills which would wipe half of the party unless interrupted.

I would also reduce defiant stacks by one so 5 players would need 5 interrupts per interruption.

Except that in PvP – the mode the skills are balanced for – you need a single CC to interrupt whatever the enemy is doing, be it an area attack or a single target attack.
And even interrupting a single target attack in PvE still requires everyone to interrupt, or someone to interrupt six times by himself (if we’re talking about a dungeon boss).
Thus, your argument is flawed.

I do agree about the cooldowns on interrupt and that there isn’t an actual need about them, though. Control is an underused aspect in PvE design.
But CC skills not being rebalanced over their weakened effects is, imho, another issue that should be solved.

PvP is 5v5, not 5v1 like PvE.

But sure, defiance can be reworked so that every interrupt instead gives a stack of miss. One stack of miss nullifies one hit from an attack. So single target attacks could be nullified with 1 interrupt, cleaves with 3 interrupts and area attacks with 5 interrupts.

But I’m pretty sure this would make even more people confused and complain how control doesn’t work. Not to mention that it wouldn’t really make any sense.

@Aetheldrake.6395 that makes me wonder why Anet made such decision.To be able to stun lock to death a boss…

Or they can modify those CC skills in PvE as to rebalance them, by giving additional non-CC effects – be it damage, conditions or whatever. What they lose in “control”, they gain in “damage” or “support”.

A boss can easily have 1 million health while in PvP players have like 20k. Should damage skills also get additional effects (like control) because they are less efficient at killing the target?

moiraine.2753:

@Aetheldrake.6395 that makes me wonder why Anet made such decision.To be able to stun lock to death a boss…

except that doesnt happen?