Guild Wars 2

I saw a ton of Class Balance requests in the collaborative dev threads, with a lot of people subtitling it as « more variety in skills / traits, more depth ».

Just a quick clarification, fellow players : In gamedesign terms, Class Balance means “how classes are equally powerful and efficient against / besides each other”. That generally means tweaking numbers without ever touching or adding any mechanical change.

If we are talking about variety, more choices, etc, what a lot of these requests should have used was : Class Depth.
(which also was my main request aswell)

If you want to ensure the devs don’t receive the wrong message, may I suggest you could use a minute to edit your request. Unless it was really Class Balance, of course

Class balance to me is of two things:

1) when any 2 classes meet 1v1, each has an equal chance of winning.
2) each class is unique. It brings something to the table that no other class can. A perfect example of not being ‘unique’ is basically how Warriors work at the moment. They can party-support, CC, heal, and DPS, whilst being basically king of all trades, master of all, which breaks the uniqueness of other classes.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Class balance to me is of two things:

1) when any 2 classes meet 1v1, each has an equal chance of winning.
2) each class is unique. …

^this is not balance.

We can’t expect every single class to have an equally chance of winning. Several builds are suited to beat/counter some other builds, although some may disagree… Like the old “hey i was running a zerker build and i was pwnd in 3 hits – nerf pls…”

Balance to me is that every class, with the appropriate set of builds can counter every other class builds when 1-1. Also, the survival and killing speed should be symmetric. (classes that can survive to 3 players hitting, shouldn’t be able to kill all the 3 easilly and vice versa!!!)…

To me, GW2’s balance is not measured in 1v1 effectiveness. Seeing as how most endgame content (dungeons, world bosses, sPvP and WvW) is built for group play, you cannot balance just by comparing how well professions can go solo.

People emphasize soloing and dueling way too much, which is part of the reason most people insist staff eles are useless. However, those same people will quickly admit staff eles are great in large WvW group fights. To ArenaNet, as long as a profession/weapon set has a good purpose, they’re balanced. For the staff ele, this means that it’s in a good spot: it has a purpose in dungeons, it has a purpose in WvW, it’s great against world bosses thanks to Meteor Shower. Sure, you can’t duel with it (read: not as well as D/D unless you’re extremely skilled) but that’s only 25% of the game at best.

Don’t just focus on 1v1…most of the meaningful parts of the game aren’t about that.

Its simple risk/reward. How much offensive power a build has and how much defensive power.

A range build has lower risk -> lower damage
A melee build has higher risk -> higher damage
A Tanky build has lower risk -> lower damage
In the end, they should all be able to kill each other, some with more effort than other.

There are builds that counter each other but no build, that is unkillable and kills everyone else.

Compare a Warrior with other classes, the warrior is able to do the same things other classes can do right now, as good or even better. This is not balanced.
If I play a glass cannon build, I should feel the missing survivability a) with less damage I deal (but have high base defense)or b) with high dmg I take.

Xae Isareth.1364:

2) each class is unique. It brings something to the table that no other class can. A perfect example of not being ‘unique’ is basically how Warriors work at the moment. They can party-support, CC, heal, and DPS, whilst being basically king of all trades, master of all, which breaks the uniqueness of other classes.

That way lies trinity…

kineticdamage.6279:

Just a quick clarification, fellow players : In gamedesign terms, Class Balance means “how classes are equally powerful and efficient against / besides each other”. That generally means tweaking numbers without ever touching or adding any mechanical change.

It should only be tweaking numbers, but that only works. if every Class has x possible builds. And if there is no other work around you have to touch the mechanic, that is also part of balancing.

But i think I got what you want to say. Balancing and Build variety/diversity are two complete different things. But they are very strong connected to each other. Having no defined builds leads nothing to be balanced and on the other hand having no balanced builds it is a wast of time to introduce new builds, because the one OP will always be chosen.

Class balance to me is that every class should have a certain amount of mobility (dodges and movement), “toughness” (combination of HP, healing, and armor), Utility, and damage.

The balance should be in how much of those things they have. If you have a crap ton of mobility and damage then you should have little to no toughness or utility. Basically distribute the effectiveness of those categories on a 10 point system.

The problem right now is that this is only how half the classes are built this way. Classes like thief, and elementalists follow this pretty closely. They can stack super high DPS and are quite mobile but they offer little utility and almost no toughness.

But then we have other classes like Warrior who have a 10 in dps, a 10 in mobility, a 10 in toughness and a 4-5 in utility. They are the best at literally everything. Which leads to most people playing warriors, which leads to the devs not wanting to nerf warriors in fear of losing players, which leads to stronger warriors, which leads to more people playing warriors… which puts us where we are now.

The definition of class balance is the Warrior.

I thought this was well established and accepted a long time ago.

More skill/trait diversity can in a way make the game balanced by just giving the players enough options to delevop their own counters/meta, instead of balance being strangled by the developers.

It also makes it much more fun/interesting.

As balance dictates, if we are talking about PvP then 1v1 and 2v2 DOES matter, considering the current and only gamemode we have emphasizes on spreading out your forces to cover more distance, and being able to stand on your own or with the minimal amount of allies (2v2) is a trait very well welcomed, which is what Tribash fails to see. Staff ele is great in WvW yes, but so is every other 1200 weapon in the game with access to spammable AoE. Plain and simple. In a smaller scenario, being able to pull your own puppy is a very valuable asset at which eles completely and utterly fail at, and thus the MLG and the other esport organized the other day ago where there were a grand net of 0 in the MLG and a staff ele in the other one which costed the team the game since most of the time all he was doing was running away and mistforming , aka nothing for the team and pulling them down.

@topic:

right now you have the Warrior Meta, where a warrior can fulfill any role, and have the most viable builds, where most build exceed at almost anything without hard counters and still pumping out insane damage, CCing the crap out of everyone and then soaking all damage in a blink, only to run away with a GS, which right now they hold the best mobility without blowing any initiative for it.

It makes the game dull, knowing that you are better off with 3 warriors, at least one with banners than almost any class. It kills the fun for some of us which would like to feel loved, like eles which are now starting to get kicked from PuGs and asked not join teams.

Pariah.8506:

The definition of class balance is the Warrior.

I thought this was well established and accepted a long time ago.

/agree
The others 7 professions are the definition of “underpowered class”.
Oh wait…

stemare.2578:

Pariah.8506:

The definition of class balance is the Warrior.

I thought this was well established and accepted a long time ago.

/agree
The others 7 professions are the definition of “underpowered class”.
Oh wait…

Except for projectile reflection there is absolutely nothing a warrior cannot do, and even then, they have so many blocks that they dont need it.

1. Need heals? Bannners and shouts.
2. Need conditions cleansing? See above
3. Need CC? Guess who to call (and it aint staff ele)
4. Need fire combo field for might stack? Fear not! Warriors got it
5. Need a beefy upfront liner? Guess which class has the best passive regenerations in the game, with the right builds you can easily regenerate over 1000 a second or more (talking not only about healing signet, but the other stuff too), I advise you to look up “immortal warrior” thread on their forums.
6. Need damage in the form of aura and banners? Guess who got it (hint, it isnt guardian)
7. Need immense burst damage and a body which can take the hits while doing so? Well ele blows in a second in melee, thieves are single target DPS, mesmers phatasm need winding up and single target, totally pointless vs trash mobs. So guess who also got it!! Another hint, has been mentioned before!
8. Best mobility in the game without getting double CD penalization or a target or initiative and all on a low CD, making you uncatchable and unrunnable. I will send you 2 coppers if you get it right

Fortus.6175:

stemare.2578:

Pariah.8506:

The definition of class balance is the Warrior.

I thought this was well established and accepted a long time ago.

/agree
The others 7 professions are the definition of “underpowered class”.
Oh wait…

Except for projectile reflection there is absolutely nothing a warrior cannot do, and even then, they have so many blocks that they dont need it.

1. Need heals? Bannners and shouts.
2. Need conditions cleansing? See above
3. Need CC? Guess who to call (and it aint staff ele)
4. Need fire combo field for might stack? Fear not! Warriors got it
5. Need a beefy upfront liner? Guess which class has the best passive regenerations in the game, with the right builds you can easily regenerate over 1000 a second or more (talking not only about healing signet, but the other stuff too), I advise you to look up “immortal warrior” thread on their forums.
6. Need damage in the form of aura and banners? Guess who got it (hint, it isnt guardian)
7. Need immense burst damage and a body which can take the hits while doing so? Well ele blows in a second in melee, thieves are single target DPS, mesmers phatasm need winding up and single target, totally pointless vs trash mobs. So guess who also got it!! Another hint, has been mentioned before!
8. Best mobility in the game without getting double CD penalization or a target or initiative and all on a low CD, making you uncatchable and unrunnable. I will send you 2 coppers if you get it right

so can you do all this in one single build? no you can’t

but ele can do most of it in one single build and amazing support ability.

Lighter.5631:

Fortus.6175:

stemare.2578:

Pariah.8506:

The definition of class balance is the Warrior.

I thought this was well established and accepted a long time ago.

/agree
The others 7 professions are the definition of “underpowered class”.
Oh wait…

Except for projectile reflection there is absolutely nothing a warrior cannot do, and even then, they have so many blocks that they dont need it.

1. Need heals? Bannners and shouts.
2. Need conditions cleansing? See above
3. Need CC? Guess who to call (and it aint staff ele)
4. Need fire combo field for might stack? Fear not! Warriors got it
5. Need a beefy upfront liner? Guess which class has the best passive regenerations in the game, with the right builds you can easily regenerate over 1000 a second or more (talking not only about healing signet, but the other stuff too), I advise you to look up “immortal warrior” thread on their forums.
6. Need damage in the form of aura and banners? Guess who got it (hint, it isnt guardian)
7. Need immense burst damage and a body which can take the hits while doing so? Well ele blows in a second in melee, thieves are single target DPS, mesmers phatasm need winding up and single target, totally pointless vs trash mobs. So guess who also got it!! Another hint, has been mentioned before!
8. Best mobility in the game without getting double CD penalization or a target or initiative and all on a low CD, making you uncatchable and unrunnable. I will send you 2 coppers if you get it right

so can you do all this in one single build? no you can’t

but ele can do most of it in one single build and amazing support ability.

Man you completely missed the point, didnt you?

Certianly you cant achieve that with one build, but same can be said about ele, and no, you wont be able to o more than one thing with ele either (GASP, i know right, who would have thought!)

The fact is; an ele who is going DPS wont have any support to give, his condition cleansing will be close to none with staff since their condition cleansing comes from applying regeneration which comes from a non-DPS tree, water (GASP, I know, stunning) . A damage ele will not last a second in a fight if they go for him, whereas a warrior will not only last, but still be useful instead of running around in mist form.

A warrior can fill any role, an ele cannot, plain and simple. THis isnt about a single build, but overall most builds. I would rather have a warrior/guardian supporting and healing than a staff ele which has long CD on heals and thats all they bring. I would rather have a warrior buffing damage and dealing damage than an ele which will blow without proper protection. Sure eles are nice DPS, and in organized gameplay they are an awesome asset, but on a Pug? No thanks.

CC? Well, dungeons bosses have that anti CC buff which a total killer, and I would much rather take an AoE stun on 7 second CD which affect everyone caught in it and deals a lot og puppy damage, to a 40 secs CD stun which is conditional and odes no damage. But thats just me, and about almost every smart player in the world

Anet did not watch this.

Fortus.6175:

stemare.2578:

Pariah.8506:

The definition of class balance is the Warrior.

I thought this was well established and accepted a long time ago.

/agree
The others 7 professions are the definition of “underpowered class”.
Oh wait…

Except for projectile reflection there is absolutely nothing a warrior cannot do, and even then, they have so many blocks that they dont need it.

1. Need heals? Bannners and shouts.
2. Need conditions cleansing? See above
3. Need CC? Guess who to call (and it aint staff ele)
4. Need fire combo field for might stack? Fear not! Warriors got it
5. Need a beefy upfront liner? Guess which class has the best passive regenerations in the game, with the right builds you can easily regenerate over 1000 a second or more (talking not only about healing signet, but the other stuff too), I advise you to look up “immortal warrior” thread on their forums.
6. Need damage in the form of aura and banners? Guess who got it (hint, it isnt guardian)
7. Need immense burst damage and a body which can take the hits while doing so? Well ele blows in a second in melee, thieves are single target DPS, mesmers phatasm need winding up and single target, totally pointless vs trash mobs. So guess who also got it!! Another hint, has been mentioned before!
8. Best mobility in the game without getting double CD penalization or a target or initiative and all on a low CD, making you uncatchable and unrunnable. I will send you 2 coppers if you get it right

They can make blocks reflect projectiles.

There’s more involved with overall class balance than just number issues. In order for classes to be on an even playing field many are going to need a complete overhaul (or gutting depending how you look at it) of their utility. Many others will need to have their AE improved (or again, others massively nerfed). Burst improved, etc.

At some point ANet needs to visit the class forums and just lay out what they want the classes to do, where they feel they’re at right now, and where they want them to be in 3 months time. We have some classes like Warriors and Guardians that are beyond rediculous right now. So if these classes are the baseline for what balance is supposed to look like I can’t help but wonder when Ranger’s will get explosive collars for their pets that 1 shot players on a 1min cooldown.

I know that sounds trollish but the disparity between the top 2 classes and the bottom 2 is that significant. It’s very hard for the players to help with class balance though when some of the classes we haven’t the faintest clue what the class is supposed to do. They’re so far off from their discription and have received no improvements on anything vital for a year people are often better off rerolling.

All these “If you’re new, play a Warrior or Guardian” threads that pop up may seem like trolls, but they’re the honest truth for the way this game is currently headed.

LHound.8964:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Class balance to me is of two things:

1) when any 2 classes meet 1v1, each has an equal chance of winning.
2) each class is unique. …

^this is not balance.

We can’t expect every single class to have an equally chance of winning. Several builds are suited to beat/counter some other builds, although some may disagree… Like the old “hey i was running a zerker build and i was pwnd in 3 hits – nerf pls…”

Balance to me is that every class, with the appropriate set of builds can counter every other class builds when 1-1. Also, the survival and killing speed should be symmetric. (classes that can survive to 3 players hitting, shouldn’t be able to kill all the 3 easilly and vice versa!!!)…

That Zerker will be 3-hit, but equally, he can 3 hit his opponent. That’s what I meant by an ‘equal’ chance. A rock paper scissors style of combat is a type of balance but I my opinion bad game design. It’s not fun knowing that your enemy beat you not because he was better, but because he simply had a build that countered yours.

Atherakhia.4086:

There’s more involved with overall class balance than just number issues. In order for classes to be on an even playing field many are going to need a complete overhaul (or gutting depending how you look at it) of their utility. Many others will need to have their AE improved (or again, others massively nerfed). Burst improved, etc.

At some point ANet needs to visit the class forums and just lay out what they want the classes to do, where they feel they’re at right now, and where they want them to be in 3 months time. We have some classes like Warriors and Guardians that are beyond rediculous right now. So if these classes are the baseline for what balance is supposed to look like I can’t help but wonder when Ranger’s will get explosive collars for their pets that 1 shot players on a 1min cooldown.

I know that sounds trollish but the disparity between the top 2 classes and the bottom 2 is that significant. It’s very hard for the players to help with class balance though when some of the classes we haven’t the faintest clue what the class is supposed to do. They’re so far off from their discription and have received no improvements on anything vital for a year people are often better off rerolling.

All these “If you’re new, play a Warrior or Guardian” threads that pop up may seem like trolls, but they’re the honest truth for the way this game is currently headed.

That’s the problem, Anet has no clue whatsoever where they want to go, let along how they want to do that.
The manifesto? It apparently didn’t mean ANYTHING, as certain people will gladly tell you time in time again.
The January statement? It has already shown to have been contradicted in game as other threads have brought to light.

Right now I personally have absolutely no idea in which direction this game is going, and for once I regret saying that I believe myself to be one of many.

Zacchary.6183:

Anet did not watch this.

The counterplay episode is helpful as well. And, the skill/ability progression that Colin promised would be coming is the perfect fertile ground to work on interesting class balance. For this to work, Anet will need to move away from short-term thinking (2 week dev cycle) and embrace a longer cycle. And, no, emulating it by fragmenting teams won’t work here either, just as it doesn’t work for LS.

Right now, core game is king in terms of importance and a move from vertical progression to skill progression (horizontal) is the right move, especially around questions of class balance. I would love to see it happen.

kineticdamage.6279:

If you want to ensure the devs don’t receive the wrong message, may I suggest you could use a minute to edit your request. Unless it was really Class Balance, of course

Well, i did mean class balance. Adding depth is definitely secondary to that, seeing how unbalanced the classes are now.

Xae Isareth.1364:

LHound.8964:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Class balance to me is of two things:

1) when any 2 classes meet 1v1, each has an equal chance of winning.
2) each class is unique. …

^this is not balance.

We can’t expect every single class to have an equally chance of winning. Several builds are suited to beat/counter some other builds, although some may disagree… Like the old “hey i was running a zerker build and i was pwnd in 3 hits – nerf pls…”

Balance to me is that every class, with the appropriate set of builds can counter every other class builds when 1-1. Also, the survival and killing speed should be symmetric. (classes that can survive to 3 players hitting, shouldn’t be able to kill all the 3 easilly and vice versa!!!)…

That Zerker will be 3-hit, but equally, he can 3 hit his opponent. That’s what I meant by an ‘equal’ chance. A rock paper scissors style of combat is a type of balance but I my opinion bad game design. It’s not fun knowing that your enemy beat you not because he was better, but because he simply had a build that countered yours.

I can’t agree with you. A Paper Rock Scissors kind of balance is the best way to deal with multitude of builds. Either that or remove the entire trait system from the global system, because traits are meant to unbalance the class in favor of certain skills, effects, class specifics.

If i with my build beat the crap out of 3 classes, loose against other 3 classes and have a tie with another, it’s fine, as long as if i change my build i could beat the same classes who have previously won.

The problem with balancing, is that we take 2 or 3 classes, and they are above all else, with the same build (i remember the old D/D elementalist)…

It’s hard to find the right dose of balancing for every single class that works wells with the rest.

/cheers

I remember once signing up to play a MUD, asking what the most powerful class was, and being told flatly that there was no such thing and they all had pros and cons. That’s class balance.

Warriors should be able to do everything as good or better than everybody else.

Other classes should be pigeonholed into build so that warriors immediately know what they are facing when they spot the player.

Non warrior classes pigeonholed builds should not better than warrior builds for that specific role but not so much worse that warriors don’t get a diverse gameplay experience.

nekretaal.6485:

Warriors should be able to do everything as good or better than everybody else.

Other classes should be pigeonholed into build so that warriors immediately know what they are facing when they spot the player.

Non warrior classes pigeonholed builds should not better than warrior builds for that specific role but not so much worse that warriors don’t get a diverse gameplay experience.

o…
m…
g…

I think we’ve just found the official definition of class balance as written by ANet :/

I know its a joke around the forums, but Warriors are pretty much the definition of class balance in this game.

You can take a warrior and build it to do pretty much anything you want. A burst direct damage DPS build, a tanky/support build, a condition damage build, a CC build… and all those builds compare very well (to put it lightly) to similar builds in other professions.

When every profession has a build that can accomplish whatever the player wants out of it, like a warrior, we’ll have balance.