We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
(edited by Behellagh.1468)
Deprioritizing Monetization
I think they’ve struck a decent balance between free content and the gemstore. They could be charging people upfront for the Living Story, but the fact that they have given a grace period where it can be unlocked for free is something quite remarkable. If this was any other mmorpg with non-subscription model, they’d be charging it up front. Or be billing it as part of an expansion.
There are times where I wish things weren’t monetized but GW2 has struck it’s own balance that sets it apart from the other mmorpgs. I’m completely fine with buying certain things from the gemstore if it means supporting the developers. I do draw line between some things that are simply not worth the gems. I hope other players do too, so that forces them to put up quality items in the gemstore. But overall, they need to turn a profit without forcing a subscription and I respect that.
What I fear is that deprioritizing how they are currently monetizing things, may lead to some rather unsatisfactory solutions or outcomes. It sounds like a case of becareful what you wish for.
One upside to the gem based content or general stuff, if that we as consumers can direct the game’s content if we vote with our wallets. There are going to be those who splurge on everything, but there is at least an opportunity for us to reward good stuff with gems and shun the bad. Probably works in theory rather than in practice. But luckily nothing major has been hidden behind paywalls like in other games that rely on a gemstore model.
It’s not about what they sell, it’s about how that effects the game in a negative way. And paying for a good expansion where then the LS was part of I would be fine with. In fact that is what I signed up for buying a B2P game. If that means no cash-shop that turns this game in to a boring gold grind.
“What I fear is that deprioritizing how they are currently monetizing things, may lead to some rather unsatisfactory solutions or outcomes.” Thats why you have to say what you want instead. Like an expansion once a year to earn the money that way. It would cost me personally more as I never buy a gem because I don’t want to support the destruction of this game. But still I would prefer that because I might then have to pay more but also expect to get a better game for it.
Let the company make their money. The gem shop does not infringe on the game play. Most micro transaction MMOs would have locked the wallet, the wardrobe, etc behind a gem store transaction. All the ‘quality of life’ improvements that do come through the gem store seem reasonable enough, and I don’t begrudge anyone their infinite mining pick if they want to buy it.
“Let the company make their money.” Sure there are many ways to do that, some better then other.
“The gem shop does not infringe on the game play.” It very mutch does, it makes it much more of a grind.
“Most micro transaction MMOs would have locked the wallet, the wardrobe, etc behind a gem store transaction.”
If it was a true F2P game (so without initial buy) I rather would have these one time unlocks as that would make it in fact more of a B2P game then having rewards / items linked to the cash-shop. Especially in a game that is all about cosmetics. In a game that is all about cosmetics, putting cosmetics in the cash-shop is the P2W equivalent of putting stats in a cash-shop that is about competition.“All the ‘quality of life’ improvements that do come through the gem store seem reasonable enough” Like adding a lot of junk to the game so every body’s bags are filling up and then starting to sell the possibility to allow for more items per slot Yeah that does seem fair enough.. not.
“and I don’t begrudge anyone their infinite mining pick if they want to buy it.” Because having to grind to get it or buying it with real cash is much better then having some actual game-play (you know it’s a game) around it that rewards you this sort of items. Adding more to do to the game and giving the content nice rewards. No we would not want that.
Actually you’re right in this game it does have more of an impact, than it does in EQ2 or Eve online because those other games also have a subscription method.
The problem here they need to make it more of a grind to try and encourage people to use the shop, especially those that are impatient and want everything now.
You could also argue that it’s only a grind because you treat it as such.
The only reason the gem shop is a grind is because we can convert in game coin into gems. So are you suggesting that they should eliminate the exchange because it’s obviously causing you “harm” because you can’t resist using the cash shop for “free”.
And because you can convert it the other way around. When people could work more directly for the items it would be less interesting to buy gold but because everything is a gold grind people are now more likely to buy gold for cash. So thats not likely a coincident.
What I am suggesting is to release an expansion every year and putting all those items in there. You see.. there are all those instruments now in the cash-shop.. They could have added an awesome musician craft to the game.
Where you had to go over the hole world to get the instruments and to learn songs on them and maybe there where some with special skins hidden. That would have given the instruments more value and added a lot of fun game-play. Now with the cash-shop way it’s just an item you buy or grind for. The first expansion could also have added a barber and the second could have added some hair-cuts. Dyes could be hidden in the game as specific colors or also part of crafts and so on.. and so on. In total adding hours and hours and hours of game-play in stead the grind or buy.
So when they then release an expansion with these things they can leave them out of the cash-shop and adding game-play and endgame.
The only things being left in the cash-shop would then be out of game things like a transfer a total make-over kit, additional character slots. And yes then it would be fine if you could not transfer gold to gems and gems to gold.
Simply removing the exchange would not work because it would turn of to many people meaning they would have to turn to other methods to sell there stuff that would also hurt the game.
Of course, pretty sells.
And I think you turned it on it’s head. Rewards in of themselves shouldn’t define if content is fun to do or not. It’s like asking to be paid to go play ring toss at an amusement park. Can’t players simply take on the challenge and enjoy beating it unless they dangle something in front of them?
Which challenge, exactly? Which one you haven’t done already atleast dozen of times?
The whole game is on halt while the LS gets pushed. Only the gemstore is recieving updates steadily. So forgive me that if they aren’t able to implement new things to do more than once that I want atleast new rewards for doing the same things over and over.
Let the company make their money. The gem shop does not infringe on the game play. Most micro transaction MMOs would have locked the wallet, the wardrobe, etc behind a gem store transaction. All the ‘quality of life’ improvements that do come through the gem store seem reasonable enough, and I don’t begrudge anyone their infinite mining pick if they want to buy it.
“Let the company make their money.” Sure there are many ways to do that, some better then other.
“The gem shop does not infringe on the game play.” It very mutch does, it makes it much more of a grind.
“Most micro transaction MMOs would have locked the wallet, the wardrobe, etc behind a gem store transaction.”
If it was a true F2P game (so without initial buy) I rather would have these one time unlocks as that would make it in fact more of a B2P game then having rewards / items linked to the cash-shop. Especially in a game that is all about cosmetics. In a game that is all about cosmetics, putting cosmetics in the cash-shop is the P2W equivalent of putting stats in a cash-shop that is about competition.“All the ‘quality of life’ improvements that do come through the gem store seem reasonable enough” Like adding a lot of junk to the game so every body’s bags are filling up and then starting to sell the possibility to allow for more items per slot Yeah that does seem fair enough.. not.
“and I don’t begrudge anyone their infinite mining pick if they want to buy it.” Because having to grind to get it or buying it with real cash is much better then having some actual game-play (you know it’s a game) around it that rewards you this sort of items. Adding more to do to the game and giving the content nice rewards. No we would not want that.
Actually you’re right in this game it does have more of an impact, than it does in EQ2 or Eve online because those other games also have a subscription method.
The problem here they need to make it more of a grind to try and encourage people to use the shop, especially those that are impatient and want everything now.
You could also argue that it’s only a grind because you treat it as such.
“The problem here they need to make it more of a grind to try and encourage people to use the shop,” Yeah that is my hole point and shows how it negatively effects the game. There are many people who complain about something like the grind or lack of end-game or LS and so on, and on the other side do defend the cash-shop so they fail to see the link between the cash-shop and what they dislike from the game.
“especially those that are impatient and want everything now” That is not really true. It’s not that people could also simply wait longer. Because long before they would then have it new stuff would be added so they would get more and more behind.
“You could also argue that it’s only a grind because you treat it as such.” No because for example I don’t.. I don’t grind because I hate to grind but when you don’t grind what is there left to do? Some JP’s once in a while and guild-missions once a week? In other mmo’s I loved to go and find special mini’s in the world or other special items. There are usually some fun crafts that can keep you busy. But really most of the fun items / rewards in this game are only really obtainable by grinding. So if hunting those items down is what you like to do there is not much other game-play / end-game left.
The only reason the gem shop is a grind is because we can convert in game coin into gems. So are you suggesting that they should eliminate the exchange because it’s obviously causing you “harm” because you can’t resist using the cash shop for “free”.
And because you can convert it the other way around. When people could work more directly for the items it would be less interesting to buy gold but because everything is a gold grind people are now more likely to buy gold for cash. So thats not likely a coincident.
It’s implied that if you remove one side of the exchange that you remove the other since buying gems with gold supplies the gold for the selling gems side and vice versa.
Problem is you can’t sustain a modern MMO on just yearly paid expansions. GW wasn’t a conventional MMO. And once the paid expansions stopped, so did content updates. And GW did have a cash shop, just one focused on account items and costumes.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
(edited by Behellagh.1468)
As intrusive as it is, the B2P/Cash Shop system worked a lot better last year. 5g→100 gems was reasonable, imo. Still required a bit of a grind, but it was attainable.
Since then we’ve seen massive inflation where almost everything costs more, but the typical amount of gold that can be earned through game play hasn’t increased to match rising prices.
Also, GW2 doesn’t really feature micro transactions. There’s nothing ‘micro’ about ten dollar+ purchases. The average weapon skin on the TP costs, if one were to buy gems and convert them to gold, approximately one quarter of the cost of the entire game.
As intrusive as it is, the B2P/Cash Shop system worked a lot better last year. 5g->100 gems was reasonable, imo. Still required a bit of a grind, but it was attainable.
Since then we’ve seen massive inflation where almost everything costs more, but the typical amount of gold that can be earned through game play hasn’t increased to match rising prices.
Also, GW2 doesn’t really feature micro transactions. There’s nothing ‘micro’ about ten dollar+ purchases. The average weapon skin on the TP costs, if one were to buy gems and convert them to gold, approximately one quarter of the cost of the entire game.
There isn’t anything micro about any MMO’s cash shop.
The exchange wasn’t set up so most players can buy the majority of items they desired for free. Free doesn’t pay the bills. It was designed in a way, IMO, to ween players off of it while making the RMT side of the exchange increasingly attractive for those who don’t mind paying a bit to enjoy the game they’ve been playing for free, beyond the initial purchase price.
If the game didn’t have the exchange and only had the cash shop, it would be as disastrous to the population as having a monthly subscription. People don’t like it if they feel they are being nickle and dime for things they think should have been included. I think I can safely say that 80-90% of the stuff in the Gem Shop at any time were there at launch. It’s not like it got dumped on us recently.
And it’s not like the current batch of LS content doesn’t come with it’s own set of items you can earn in game. It’s not just the Gem Store that gets new stuff.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
The only reason the gem shop is a grind is because we can convert in game coin into gems. So are you suggesting that they should eliminate the exchange because it’s obviously causing you “harm” because you can’t resist using the cash shop for “free”.
And because you can convert it the other way around. When people could work more directly for the items it would be less interesting to buy gold but because everything is a gold grind people are now more likely to buy gold for cash. So thats not likely a coincident.
It’s implied that if you remove one side of the exchange that you remove the other since buying gems with gold supplies the gold for the selling gems side and vice versa.
Problem is you can’t sustain a modern MMO on just yearly paid expansions. GW wasn’t a conventional MMO. And once the paid expansions stopped, so did content updates. And GW did have a cash shop, just one focused on account items and costumes.
“Problem is you can’t sustain a modern MMO” Where do you base that on? It’s a myth. Looking at the numbers GW2 would have likely earned more if they had sold an expansion every year and no cash-shop compared to the current model. Also look at all the none-mmo’s out there. They use this exact same model (selling the game an expansion or the sequel) and manage to keep a franchise running for years. They to have to patch the game and keep servers running.
Everything points towards it working out, it’s just not a common used model in the MMO marked but then again, F2P wasn’t a common used model 5 years ago.
Yes GW1 did get a cash-shop but it did not have a focus on it. Thats the big difference. Look at your own link and see whats in it and compare that to the GW2 cash-shop.
You really wanna argue thats the same thing?
—
Oke one positive thing then about the cash-shop. After games as WoW and Minecraft and a few others where featured in South Park, thanks to the cash-shop, GW2 was also talked about in South Park. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac well sort of.
(edited by Devata.6589)
There isn’t anything micro about any MMO’s cash shop.
True, and I think there’s a problem with that. I’m sure lots of players (myself included) would love to drop some cash into the game, but don’t feel like most items are worth the cost.
The exchange wasn’t set up so most players can buy the majority of items they desired for free. Free doesn’t pay the bills. It was designed in a way, IMO, to ween players off of it while making the RMT side of the exchange increasingly attractive for those who don’t mind paying a bit to enjoy the game they’ve been playing for free, beyond the initial purchase price.
Even when the rate was lower I wouldn’t say that it allowed most players to buy the majority of items for free. I had friends and guildies who were around since launch but barely had two gold to rub together. There was still quite a lot of grinding and a fair bit of skill required to earn gold, whether through TP flipping or dungeon runs. Difference is there seemed to be more of a balance between benefits for ‘freeloading’ and cash-paying players. Right now the scales are weighted heavily in favour of cash spenders.
Does a micro-transactional model promote an even spread of content as well as set a platform for longevity?
Nope.
This game NEEDS an expansion.
LS is killing this game. As a 10+ year fan and supporter of the franchise I doubt I will play much longer if LS is the future. It’s a poor excuse for any semblance of relevant or long-term content and player/supporters of the franchise should not be at fault for saying so.
If your having adventurer problems I feel bad for you son, I dodged 99 arrows till my knee took one.
Does a micro-transactional model promote an even spread of content as well as set a platform for longevity?
Nope.
This game NEEDS an expansion.
LS is killing this game. As a 10+ year fan and supporter of the franchise I doubt I will play much longer if LS is the future. It’s a poor excuse for any semblance of relevant or long-term content and player/supporters of the franchise should not be at fault for saying so.
If all of the current and future LS 2 content was packaged and dropped all at once, for 1/2 the cost of the original GW2 game (reasonable price point for an expansion IMO) would you have thought differently about LS 2? Is it the serial nature of the content forcing you to wait rather than binging through it at your own pace affecting your attitude about it?
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
The only reason the gem shop is a grind is because we can convert in game coin into gems. So are you suggesting that they should eliminate the exchange because it’s obviously causing you “harm” because you can’t resist using the cash shop for “free”.
And because you can convert it the other way around. When people could work more directly for the items it would be less interesting to buy gold but because everything is a gold grind people are now more likely to buy gold for cash. So thats not likely a coincident.
It’s implied that if you remove one side of the exchange that you remove the other since buying gems with gold supplies the gold for the selling gems side and vice versa.
Problem is you can’t sustain a modern MMO on just yearly paid expansions. GW wasn’t a conventional MMO. And once the paid expansions stopped, so did content updates. And GW did have a cash shop, just one focused on account items and costumes.
“Problem is you can’t sustain a modern MMO” Where do you base that on? It’s a myth. Looking at the numbers GW2 would have likely earned more if they had sold an expansion every year and no cash-shop compared to the current model. Also look at all the none-mmo’s out there. They use this exact same model (selling the game an expansion or the sequel) and manage to keep a franchise running for years. They to have to patch the game and keep servers running.
Everything points towards it working out, it’s just not a common used model in the MMO marked but then again, F2P wasn’t a common used model 5 years ago.
Yes GW1 did get a cash-shop but it did not have a focus on it. Thats the big difference. Look at your own link and see whats in it and compare that to the GW2 cash-shop.
You really wanna argue thats the same thing?—
Oke one positive thing then about the cash-shop. After games as WoW and Minecraft and a few others where featured in South Park, thanks to the cash-shop, GW2 was also talked about in South Park. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac well sort of.
Okay. How can you say my analysis is based on a myth while in the next sentence you declare they would have been rolling in Scrooge McDuck mounds of money if they released an expansion? Do you have a window into a parallel universe where GW2 was expansion based? Do I call you Walter or Billy? (Fringe joke)
It is easier to develop stand alone instanced missions for limited party size and then stitch them together than create content that scales from 1 to 100 players depending on who’s passing by at the time. That’s not a myth.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
Apparently, analysis based on fiction is OK as long as it’s your own.
Seems that the poster doesn’t recognize that the game is successful so there isn’t any reason to radically change it. I’m all for improvement but for someone to claim it should change because it might have been even better a different way and will probably fail, based on irrelevant associations is crazy.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Does a micro-transactional model promote an even spread of content as well as set a platform for longevity?
Nope.
This game NEEDS an expansion.
LS is killing this game. As a 10+ year fan and supporter of the franchise I doubt I will play much longer if LS is the future. It’s a poor excuse for any semblance of relevant or long-term content and player/supporters of the franchise should not be at fault for saying so.
If all of the current and future LS 2 content was packaged and dropped all at once, for 1/2 the cost of the original GW2 game (reasonable price point for an expansion IMO) would you have thought differently about LS 2? Is it the serial nature of the content forcing you to wait rather than binging through it at your own pace affecting your attitude about it?
It’s null and void.
There is little relevance for comparison. No new classes, no new features, crap rewards. LS is filler plain and simple and imho it SUCKS and is nothing more than an excuse for lack of an actual expansion, with kitten story writing. I’m a GW1 fan.
Kitten LS is kitten LS.
Seems that the poster doesn’t recognize that the game is successful so there isn’t any reason to radically change it.
One of the most idiotic statements I’ve ever seen.
If your having adventurer problems I feel bad for you son, I dodged 99 arrows till my knee took one.
(edited by fireflyry.7023)
Let the company make their money. The gem shop does not infringe on the game play. Most micro transaction MMOs would have locked the wallet, the wardrobe, etc behind a gem store transaction. All the ‘quality of life’ improvements that do come through the gem store seem reasonable enough, and I don’t begrudge anyone their infinite mining pick if they want to buy it.
I actually find the gem store to be incredibly invasive in this game, I feel you’re thinking along classic MMO lines where skins in the gem store is ok.
In traditional MMO’s stats are the progression and if a store put raid quality gear for sale in their gem store there’d be a riot.
In Gw2 skins are the horizontal progression, the “victory condition” so to speak and as such skins or any method allowing for faster acquisition of skins constitutes interfering with game-play /progression.
So I take issues with two things that allow money to give a significant advantage
1. Skins in the gem store/black lion (Roughly 510~ skins including each weight as a separate skin).
2. Gem to gold conversion (due to the excessive amount of tradable/gold buy-able skins this offers a massive advantage.)
If I was redesigning the gem store I’d
Remove
Gem > Gold (And vice versa if needed for that to happen).
All skins, a player should only look as good as what they’ve earned in game.
Watch-work Pick.
Any home instance improvements.
Use as main source of income
Basic account upgrades (Bank,bag,character slots).
Server transfers.
Name changes.
Gender changes.
Makeover kit.
these are all standard things that don’t interfere with the game.
Additional items
Permanent tools with no advantages ever.
Miniatures (introduce more RNG boxes for these if you have to have something for the whales to buy).
Toys, for playing around in cities (not combat usable).
Musical Instruments.
LS episodes.
These are additional fun items that don’t cause an issue (mini’s are technically iffy but is a concession I’m willing to make).
If those changes were implemented I would be perfectly content with the gem store in the game. If I want to support the game I can for some fun stuff while it is not interfering with game play , as a bonus you now have 510 skins that can be used as rewards for in-game content allowing you to spend more time on content design.
[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
Use as main source of income
You’re not suggesting very significant changes in content. The other feature you mention aren’t really invasive if you don’t use them.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Use as main source of income
You’re not suggesting very significant changes in content. The other feature you mention aren’t really invasive if you don’t use them.
I don’t think significant changes are needed too much,other than the ones outlined, just some barriers and understanding “right we won’t monetize anything in this section ever”.
The difference between can you and should you is really what it comes down to.
E.G.
If you introduced player housing/ guild halls you could monetize the hell out of it, but should you? No.
MMO’s have to balance between whats best for the bottom line and best for the game which is a challenge other businesses don’t have to face as much. CCG’s being the only other business I can think of that has to wrestle with it regularly.
[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
In traditional MMO’s stats are the progression and if a store put raid quality gear for sale in their gem store there’d be a riot.
In Gw2 skins are the horizontal progression, the “victory condition” so to speak and as such skins or any method allowing for faster acquisition of skins constitutes interfering with game-play /progression.
The difference is, why do you care what kind of skins the one next to you is using? In traditional MMOs not having the gear means you can’t do certain content, or you are at a disadvantage in PVP. In GW2 having a unique/pretty skin doesn’t give you any kind of advantage in terms of content.
Use as main source of income
You’re not suggesting very significant changes in content. The other feature you mention aren’t really invasive if you don’t use them.
I don’t think significant changes are needed too much,other than the ones outlined, just some barriers and understanding “right we won’t monetize anything in this section ever”.
I think that what gets put into a section is just a matter of opinion though, so there will always be things that people disagree with there. I don’t see alot of items that I think should not be in the gemstore and even if there are some, it’s in no way a game changer or invasive. It really doesn’t have a significant impact on people if a few exist.
The gems to gold exchange is probably the most profitable aspect of the gemstore. As long as the things that are ‘invasive’ to the game are minimized in the gemstore, I don’t see how this is an issue. It’s transparent to players if someone buys gold with gems or vice versa.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I have some questions, some for the OP and some for other posters.
- What is “an even spread of content?”
- What did Anet “promise?”
- What leads you to believe that dissatisfaction with the alteration in the method for story content delivery is a popular topic?
- What MMO’s offer new content for free?
- Why is the alternate method of story content unlock (logging in) such an onerous burden?
- Why is it unjust to offer a choice between logging in once in a given two week period or paying somewhere between 50-60% of the cost of a caramel macchiato?
- What evidence is there that “lack of communication” or lack of content acceptable to certain posters are a result of the monetizing model?
- What makes the RNG in this game “horrifyingly unjust?”
- Does any other company offer a B2P model with expansion packs as the only other cost to access?
- If no one else is monetizing solely via initial box sale and sales of expansion packs, what leads you to think it would be a viable method to monetize game development?
- What am I not doing that I do not get the feeling that “everywhere I look I’m being asked for gems, gems and more gems?” Or maybe, what are you doing that you do feel this way?
you need some chapstick? maybe a few napkins?
What I’m going to say next is likely what you’re going to try and jump on and go “oh subjective” or “oh I play for fun” but since I have no patience for dancing around it I’ll say it anyway.
The difference is, why do you care what kind of skins the one next to you is using? In traditional MMOs not having the gear means you can’t do certain content, or you are at a disadvantage in PVP. In GW2 having a unique/pretty skin doesn’t give you any kind of advantage in terms of content.
Because it matters, it really does,regardless of your opinion MMO’s have a large aspect that is showing off and wish fulfillment. The quality, who has it,and how they got it of items is important. Consider the entire game a giant competition against all the other players. You want to out do them ,have the shiner items the rarer items basically have what they don’t and can’t get. It’s a less sugar coated version but surely you can see that it’s true.
Use as main source of income
You’re not suggesting very significant changes in content. The other feature you mention aren’t really invasive if you don’t use them.
I don’t think significant changes are needed too much,other than the ones outlined, just some barriers and understanding “right we won’t monetize anything in this section ever”.
I think that what gets put into a section is just a matter of opinion though, so there will always be things that people disagree with there. I don’t see alot of items that I think should not be in the gemstore and even if there are some, it’s in no way a game changer or invasive. It really doesn’t have a significant impact on people if a few exist.
The gems to gold exchange is probably the most profitable aspect of the gemstore. As long as the things that are ‘invasive’ to the game are minimized in the gemstore, I don’t see how this is an issue. It’s transparent to players if someone buys gold with gems or vice versa.
Thats were discussion comes in, I actually suggested a gemstore CDI but it’s unlikely to happen.
I still disagree and feel the gem conversion to be very invasive, it allows a new player to potentially catch up to my account in a fraction of the time it took me using money which I’m not ok with, it devalues my efforts. It also allows a bad player to have access to more skins than they’d earn.
[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
I still disagree and feel the gem conversion to be very invasive, it allows a new player to potentially catch up to my account in a fraction of the time it took me using money which I’m not ok with, it devalues my efforts. It also allows a bad player to have access to more skins than they’d earn.
If someone wants to pay around the £350 it takes to get a Bifrost in order for them to ‘match’ me. Let them. I honestly couldn’t care one way or the other what others skins players are running with. Except for me to go ‘ooooh, that’s nice’ and potentially look into acquiring it.
Honestly, that may be because I don’t really care if my efforts in games are seen as valuable to other players (outside of something like actually commanding or PvP – skins? not really). Those kinds of concerns, the motivation to make sure my efforts aren’t for naught, are the kind that I maintain in my career. In a game? I get shiny weapons because they’re shiny. I don’t really care how other players acquired their shinies, and I’ll never need to know how they acquired them anyway.
If it irks you to think that some people got an expensive weapon unjustly: I got dusk from a random undead Orrian mob. At least those guys paying real money worked for their weapons. I certainly didn’t ‘work’ for Dusk! Or earn it. In any fashion. Same for my Dawn drop. I got it after 40 rare greatswords that I made because I had some spare t5 mats! I have not ‘earned’ those weapons, those hugely expensive weapons, in any way you would be able to justify as ‘work’.
My Bifrost and (soon to acquire) Sunrise will have taken vastly less time than they should have due to dumb luck. How is that less annoying than people exchanging gems? XD
Essentially, what I’m saying is this: There are people out there who have had a far easier time getting really expensive weapons that even the (probably tiny, tiny fraction) people who ‘buy’ skins with money :P
(edited by The Comfy Chair.7265)
Does a micro-transactional model promote an even spread of content as well as set a platform for longevity?
Nope.
This game NEEDS an expansion.
LS is killing this game. As a 10+ year fan and supporter of the franchise I doubt I will play much longer if LS is the future. It’s a poor excuse for any semblance of relevant or long-term content and player/supporters of the franchise should not be at fault for saying so.
If all of the current and future LS 2 content was packaged and dropped all at once, for 1/2 the cost of the original GW2 game (reasonable price point for an expansion IMO) would you have thought differently about LS 2? Is it the serial nature of the content forcing you to wait rather than binging through it at your own pace affecting your attitude about it?
If you pay attention to his “+10 years” experience point, you’ll know what his standards are of what an expansion is in his experience. That being said, if I was him I would say no because regardless of delivery method, the content does not suffice.
Had the LS delivered the level of content of say “Factions” or “Nightfall” within its performance timeline, I would imagine he would have a completely different perspective.
EDIT:
TLDR: look at the details.
The micro-transaction and micro-content model
Items costing $10 a piece are not Micro transactions. If items cost between $1-$3 I’d say they better fit into the Micro Transactions definition. Also, I feel more players would pay for items instead of farming gold. Because the real life cost is at a price point where players simply say, “F that” and get turned off. Anet should consider moving more volume at a lower price point.
For an expansion, I’d much rather have it in the living story fashion. They just need to have more content per patch.
[AwM] of Jade Quarry.
Because it matters, it really does,regardless of your opinion MMO’s have a large aspect that is showing off and wish fulfillment. The quality, who has it,and how they got it of items is important. Consider the entire game a giant competition against all the other players. You want to out do them ,have the shiner items the rarer items basically have what they don’t and can’t get. It’s a less sugar coated version but surely you can see that it’s true.
There are such items in game. Fractal Weapons, Aetherpath items, Teq drops, Wurm… Heck, dungeon sets were supposed to be elite rewards, but it didn’t work out that way for most of the sets. So it’s not that prestige looks aren’t there, it’s that there are not enough of them to satisfy some people.
There are also skins that can be gotten through play that anyone might get (Carapace and the back skin of the month back in season 1). There are also skins in the Gem store. People have varied tastes where looks are concerned. Some people who want prestige looks don’t like the prestige options, but really like something that’s in the store, or they like a LS meta award, but it doesn’t have the prestige because everyone and his brother has it.
There are people who want Gem store skins. There are people who want skins through play. There are people who want skins through elite play. ANet is catering to multiple demographics with different desires. And elements within all those demographics seem to want more than they’re getting. Some of them want everything to be for them. That’s human nature.
It’s not reasonable to expect to be the only demographic catered to. That said, I’ll grant you that what’s been appearing lately is gem skins and anyone-can-get-via-play skins. That’s more a result of the fact that content that requires elite play is not forthcoming, and I don’t believe that to be a design decision based on monetizing, except indirectly. Rather, I believe it is a result of trying to create content accessible to everyone.
I still disagree and feel the gem conversion to be very invasive, it allows a new player to potentially catch up to my account in a fraction of the time it took me using money which I’m not ok with, it devalues my efforts. It also allows a bad player to have access to more skins than they’d earn.
That assessment is flawed because it’s applying competitive thinking to a non-competitive environment. There is no ‘catch up’ and purchases with gem-bought gold is earning as well, it’s simply a player’s decision to earn with RL money or time. You’re efforts are not devalued because someone values their time/money differently than you do. If anything, you devalue your own efforts because of your comparative approach.
Besides, it’s transparent to you. You have no idea how someone obtained loot, so you can’t claim it devalues what you have done to earn your own. It’s quite illogical to think in this manner.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
The only reason the gem shop is a grind is because we can convert in game coin into gems. So are you suggesting that they should eliminate the exchange because it’s obviously causing you “harm” because you can’t resist using the cash shop for “free”.
And because you can convert it the other way around. When people could work more directly for the items it would be less interesting to buy gold but because everything is a gold grind people are now more likely to buy gold for cash. So thats not likely a coincident.
It’s implied that if you remove one side of the exchange that you remove the other since buying gems with gold supplies the gold for the selling gems side and vice versa.
Problem is you can’t sustain a modern MMO on just yearly paid expansions. GW wasn’t a conventional MMO. And once the paid expansions stopped, so did content updates. And GW did have a cash shop, just one focused on account items and costumes.
“Problem is you can’t sustain a modern MMO” Where do you base that on? It’s a myth. Looking at the numbers GW2 would have likely earned more if they had sold an expansion every year and no cash-shop compared to the current model. Also look at all the none-mmo’s out there. They use this exact same model (selling the game an expansion or the sequel) and manage to keep a franchise running for years. They to have to patch the game and keep servers running.
Everything points towards it working out, it’s just not a common used model in the MMO marked but then again, F2P wasn’t a common used model 5 years ago.
Yes GW1 did get a cash-shop but it did not have a focus on it. Thats the big difference. Look at your own link and see whats in it and compare that to the GW2 cash-shop.
You really wanna argue thats the same thing?—
Oke one positive thing then about the cash-shop. After games as WoW and Minecraft and a few others where featured in South Park, thanks to the cash-shop, GW2 was also talked about in South Park. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac well sort of.
Okay. How can you say my analysis is based on a myth while in the next sentence you declare they would have been rolling in Scrooge McDuck mounds of money if they released an expansion? Do you have a window into a parallel universe where GW2 was expansion based? Do I call you Walter or Billy? (Fringe joke)
It is easier to develop stand alone instanced missions for limited party size and then stitch them together than create content that scales from 1 to 100 players depending on who’s passing by at the time. That’s not a myth.
I did not state that and said where I based what I said on.. Read again “Looking at the numbers GW2 would have likely earned more if they had sold an expansion every year and no cash-shop compared to the current model.”
More detailed explanation here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Deprioritizing-Monetization/first#post4606955
Does a micro-transactional model promote an even spread of content as well as set a platform for longevity?
Nope.
This game NEEDS an expansion.
LS is killing this game. As a 10+ year fan and supporter of the franchise I doubt I will play much longer if LS is the future. It’s a poor excuse for any semblance of relevant or long-term content and player/supporters of the franchise should not be at fault for saying so.
If all of the current and future LS 2 content was packaged and dropped all at once, for 1/2 the cost of the original GW2 game (reasonable price point for an expansion IMO) would you have thought differently about LS 2? Is it the serial nature of the content forcing you to wait rather than binging through it at your own pace affecting your attitude about it?
If you pay attention to his “+10 years” experience point, you’ll know what his standards are of what an expansion is in his experience. That being said, if I was him I would say no because regardless of delivery method, the content does not suffice.
Had the LS delivered the level of content of say “Factions” or “Nightfall” within its performance timeline, I would imagine he would have a completely different perspective.
EDIT:
TLDR: look at the details.
And this is my problem. I have no frame of reference about how much content relative to the original GW that each of the two campaigns provided. But isn’t it also true that these campaigns were also stand alone games? If so then you are asking ANet to generate as much content as GW2 has, which took 5 years to develop, in only a year or two?
Now it’s obvious due to the rabid delivery of the two GW campaigns, only 18 months, that they were being developed at the same time as the original and that was the plan from the start. It’s also equally obvious that a rapidly released expansion was never the plan with GW2.
And that’s where all of the GW fans painted themselves into a position where GW2 could never actually achieve. You heard what you wanted to hear and discard any info that contradicted your notions. You all blame Nexon for the cash shop, even though Nexon didn’t acquire any stock until after ANet hired Ms Cox which seems to me that the cash shop was already decided as the income source rather than paid expansions.
Even after the game shipped you all clung to the notion that a paid expansion would be just around the corner, even after LS 1 started. You told yourselves that this couldn’t be the way ANet was going to run GW2. That they’re keeping an expansion in their back pocket to play any day now.
ANet decided they wanted a living world where it permanently change. Where events came and went and if you weren’t there you missed it. Just as if you missed some of the episodes of your favorite show in the era before DVRs, OnDemand and Bittorrent. LS 1 was designed to to encourage players to stop back every two weeks rather than binge and leave until the next expansion. It wasn’t accidental. LS and the gem shop was an intentional decision on their part and all the shouting isn’t going to alter that.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
Let the company make their money. The gem shop does not infringe on the game play. Most micro transaction MMOs would have locked the wallet, the wardrobe, etc behind a gem store transaction. All the ‘quality of life’ improvements that do come through the gem store seem reasonable enough, and I don’t begrudge anyone their infinite mining pick if they want to buy it.
I actually find the gem store to be incredibly invasive in this game, I feel you’re thinking along classic MMO lines where skins in the gem store is ok.
In traditional MMO’s stats are the progression and if a store put raid quality gear for sale in their gem store there’d be a riot.
In Gw2 skins are the horizontal progression, the “victory condition” so to speak and as such skins or any method allowing for faster acquisition of skins constitutes interfering with game-play /progression.So I take issues with two things that allow money to give a significant advantage
1. Skins in the gem store/black lion (Roughly 510~ skins including each weight as a separate skin).
2. Gem to gold conversion (due to the excessive amount of tradable/gold buy-able skins this offers a massive advantage.)If I was redesigning the gem store I’d
Remove
Gem > Gold (And vice versa if needed for that to happen).
All skins, a player should only look as good as what they’ve earned in game.
Watch-work Pick.
Any home instance improvements.Use as main source of income
Basic account upgrades (Bank,bag,character slots).
Server transfers.
Name changes.
Gender changes.
Makeover kit.these are all standard things that don’t interfere with the game.
Additional items
Permanent tools with no advantages ever.
Miniatures (introduce more RNG boxes for these if you have to have something for the whales to buy).
Toys, for playing around in cities (not combat usable).
Musical Instruments.
LS episodes.These are additional fun items that don’t cause an issue (mini’s are technically iffy but is a concession I’m willing to make).
If those changes were implemented I would be perfectly content with the gem store in the game. If I want to support the game I can for some fun stuff while it is not interfering with game play , as a bonus you now have 510 skins that can be used as rewards for in-game content allowing you to spend more time on content design.
Almost agree just take away the Additional items and expand on those with game-play in expansions and use those expansions for income.
Musical Instruments for examples, like I said in my first post in this thread. There could be an awesome musician craft in this game sending you all over the world to learn the instruments collect them and get rare ones. Hours and hours of fun game-play could be added with this. Same for all the toys and mini’s. Putting those things in a cash-shop takes all the from the game.
For example those mini’s in other mmo’s one of the main things I did was collecting those things in the game. In GW2 that is just grinding gold or spending cash so no thanks but it also means that hole game-play element is gone.
Consider the entire game a giant competition against all the other players. You want to out do them ,have the shiner items the rarer items basically have what they don’t and can’t get.
That’s actually the exact opposite of what I want out of a game. I do care about what my characters look like for my own sake. Not some superficial bunk over what others have.
[AwM] of Jade Quarry.
Consider the entire game a giant competition against all the other players. You want to out do them ,have the shiner items the rarer items basically have what they don’t and can’t get.
That’s actually the exact opposite of what I want out of a game. I do care about what my characters look like for my own sake. Not some superficial bunk over what others have.
Still does not change much as getting most of those things mean grinding gold or buying with cash in stead of really playing for it. And that has a lot to do with the cash-shop.
I still disagree and feel the gem conversion to be very invasive, it allows a new player to potentially catch up to my account in a fraction of the time it took me using money which I’m not ok with, it devalues my efforts. It also allows a bad player to have access to more skins than they’d earn.
That assessment is flawed because it’s applying competitive thinking to a non-competitive environment. There is no ‘catch up’ and purchases with gem-bought gold is earning as well, it’s simply a player’s decision to earn with RL money or time. You’re efforts are not devalued because someone values their time/money differently than you do. If anything, you devalue your own efforts because of your comparative approach.
Besides, it’s transparent to you. You have no idea how someone obtained loot, so you can’t claim it devalues what you have done to earn your own. It’s quite illogical to think in this manner.
Consider is competition or not, the whole game is build around cosmetics and then selling them or turning them into a gold grind because you want to make money on them is just as intrusive as selling stats in a game where everything is build around fighting each other. Because it messes with the core of the game.
~Snip~
Now it’s obvious due to the rabid delivery of the two GW campaigns, only 18 months, that they were being developed at the same time as the original and that was the plan from the start. It’s also equally obvious that a rapidly released expansion was never the plan with GW2.
First off, I can guarantee you 100% that this a false assumption on your part, Factions and Nightfall were not being worked on at the same time as Prophecies. You have to remember that GW1 was mostly instanced game with only cities for hubs, all the big missions were instanced, the ‘persistent’ lands weren’t all that persistent, they were just bigger instances.
~Snip~
And that’s where all of the GW fans painted themselves into a position where GW2 could never actually achieve. You heard what you wanted to hear and discard any info that contradicted your notions. You all blame Nexon for the cash shop, even though Nexon didn’t acquire any stock until after ANet hired Ms Cox which seems to me that the cash shop was already decided as the income source rather than paid expansions.~Snip~
I’m not sure where this fallacy came from, Arena.net is 100% owned by NCSoft, it’s an operating subsidiary, now if Nexon owns some NCSoft stock, that’s fine, but so do many other people as it’s a publicly traded company in Korea. The cash-shop was going to be in the game from release, it was designed with that financing model in mind.
Person who’s name sounds like Fisting Chocks has made up home in the Anet camp I fear and be kitten ed whatever any complaints may be……….SHE WANTS MONEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYY!
And pies
(edited by Paul.4081)
~Snip~
Now it’s obvious due to the rabid delivery of the two GW campaigns, only 18 months, that they were being developed at the same time as the original and that was the plan from the start. It’s also equally obvious that a rapidly released expansion was never the plan with GW2.First off, I can guarantee you 100% that this a false assumption on your part, Factions and Nightfall were not being worked on at the same time as Prophecies. You have to remember that GW1 was mostly instanced game with only cities for hubs, all the big missions were instanced, the ‘persistent’ lands weren’t all that persistent, they were just bigger instances.
I call BS on that notion. There is no way they could have churned out essentially two additional games of similar size in 18 months. Assuming they were running their development teams like they did at Blizzard (Diablo/WarCraft/StarCraft) then the first new campaign was already being worked on before the first game shipped and likely the second was in development as well, or do you think the team was so well oiled that they cut development time down from several years to 12 months and then to 6 months? Some of that development had to be concurrent. I’ve worked on too many software projects where feature development is planned several releases in advance and is staged.
And I’ve pointed out several times in this thread that hub/instance is much easier to code than a true MMO only to be shouted down as spouting fantasy. Sure once you create the infrastructure and basic 3D assets it’s quicker since you can reuse rather than create from scratch but considering the look/environment of the three campaigns were so different that some of that had to have started before hand, perhaps as assets for the first game that were planned and cut to get the original game out of the door and generating income. The original game may have been more encompassing and the plan changed to release it in stages.
~Snip~
And that’s where all of the GW fans painted themselves into a position where GW2 could never actually achieve. You heard what you wanted to hear and discard any info that contradicted your notions. You all blame Nexon for the cash shop, even though Nexon didn’t acquire any stock until after ANet hired Ms Cox which seems to me that the cash shop was already decided as the income source rather than paid expansions.~Snip~
I’m not sure where this fallacy came from, Arena.net is 100% owned by NCSoft, it’s an operating subsidiary, now if Nexon owns some NCSoft stock, that’s fine, but so do many other people as it’s a publicly traded company in Korea. The cash-shop was going to be in the game from release, it was designed with that financing model in mind.
Not my theory and one when reported as “fact” I reply with one of my tin foil hat pictures (Weird Al from Foil is currently my favorite). But it doesn’t stop those claiming NCSOFT for forcing the cash shop that was dictated by their Nexon masters onto the game and if it wasn’t for them we would be seeing an paid expansion version of income generation like GW.
And that is the thrust in this thread. That quick paid expansions were a viable option for an MMO of this size. An MMO that focused on co-op PvE play rather than a complex trait based PvP system that most players who complain about GW2 claim is missing from GW. That it’s too easy and no “mature” content for the GW hardcore.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
Consider is competition or not, the whole game is build around cosmetics and then selling them or turning them into a gold grind because you want to make money on them is just as intrusive as selling stats in a game where everything is build around fighting each other. Because it messes with the core of the game.
It’s NOT the same as selling stats because stats impact performance. Skins do not. I still don’t understand what makes buying a skin, regardless of the currency source, intrusive so please do explain it.
From my perspective, someone else having a skin is not intruding on anyone’s ability to get, use or enjoy the same skin. In fact, that’s the intent of the game. The number of people that own and how they obtain those skins does not ‘devalue’ items in any way because the value of these skins is purely aesthetic for someone purchasing them. If I buy an item with in-game earned or gem-bought gold, it still looks the same on me and no one knows either way. It doesn’t affect you, you just think it does.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Consider is competition or not, the whole game is build around cosmetics and then selling them or turning them into a gold grind because you want to make money on them is just as intrusive as selling stats in a game where everything is build around fighting each other. Because it messes with the core of the game.
It’s NOT the same as selling stats because stats impact performance. Skins do not. I still don’t understand what makes buying a skin, regardless of the currency source, intrusive. The game is DESIGNED to enable this. It’s not intruding on anyone’s ability to get, use or like the same skin. It’s transparent to other players how the skin was purchased.
Your performance in other games affects your experience the same way as skins affect your experience in GW2.
At the end of the day, what matters is that NCSOFT is happy.
So far, they seem to be happy since they are not actively firing/ transferring
people from ANET to other projects. In fact, Anet is hiring more people than the other development teams under NCSOFT. So, they have to be doing something right to keep NCSOFT happy.
By they, you mean we. We keep spending money on gems.
Give us more GW 1 weapon and armor skins, please. COPY/PASTE ALREADY!!!!
Your performance in other games affects your experience the same way as skins affect your experience in GW2.
Poster is claiming that buying a skin is similar as buying stat-giving items because of how it “messes with game core” I can only assume that he’s talking about performance. Skins do not affect the ingame performance of your avatar.
Even if he is talking about gaming experience, the way skins affect your experience ingame is not the same way that stats do. Stats do not affect your visual pleasure. Skins only affect your visual pleasure. I don’t even see the relevance of the comparison.
Either way, I’m struggling to understand the language being used here; a skin, regardless of how it’s purchased is ‘intrusive’ because no one can tell how it was purchased. Again, we are left guessing what this means. It wrecks immersion?
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Your performance in other games affects your experience the same way as skins affect your experience in GW2.
Poster is claiming that buying a skin is similar as buying stat-giving items because of how it “messes with game core” I can only assume that he’s talking about performance. Skins do not affect the ingame performance of your avatar.
Even if he is talking about gaming experience, the way skins affect your experience ingame is not the same way that stats do. Stats do not affect your visual pleasure. Skins only affect your visual pleasure. I don’t even see the relevance of the comparison.
Either way, I’m struggling to understand the language being used here; a skin, regardless of how it’s purchased is ‘intrusive’ because no one can tell how it was purchased. Again, we are left guessing what this means. It wrecks immersion?
You’re talking about the core gameplay while he is talking about the core incentive to play this game. You’re right that skins don’t mess with the gameplay but they do mess with the incentive. Other games have the gear-treadmill as incentive to keep playing, while GW2 uses skins as treadmill. This is a sneaky way to devalue shallow Pay-2-Win arguments since you don’t need those skins to “beat the game”. But the difference is that the main driving factor in GW2 are skins. Before acended gear got added you had literally nothing else to go for reward-wise and this is where this arguments turns into P2W again: The challenge in GW2 is not about “beating the game” but about getting all the skins (you want). By putting the majority of new skins into the gemstore they’ve created a pseudo P2W model, which isn’t P2W but feels like it. And in the end it’s about customer satisfaction. And grinding for gold to get the newest skins isn’t satisfactory.
You’re talking about the core gameplay while he is talking about the core incentive to play this game. You’re right that skins don’t mess with the gameplay but they do mess with the incentive.
Incentive to get a skin doesn’t change depending on how someone else gets it, which is really the point of the poster. A majority of skins are NOT in the gemstore … that’s just a ridiculous thing to say. I don’t even think issues with balance of skins between gemstore and ingame is even relevant. It has nothing to do with the ‘intrusive’ nature of the gemstore.
Some perspective here … The gemstore is MUCH LESS ‘intrusive’ than Anet dipping into our wallet for a monthly fee, however you wish to define intrusive. That’s the only alternative to cash stop.
The whole point of the thread is basically a realization that the ways this game makes money is more obvious while playing the game than other methods like paid expansions, etc… My problem with this realization is that it’s not a hidden secret that we just recently discovered. It’s been like this for 2 years. It’s all very naive actually to think that Anet isn’t going to try selling different things and expanding their gemstore offers to players.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Majority of new skins are on at the Gem Shop or the ticket/scraps needed for one are.
This is the crux of their problem as I see it.
By eliminating the link between doing an event for specific reward, it may allow players who aren’t good at that event to still get the item from some random kill. Making those items non-character or account bound means a player can simply buy one from another player. And if you can buy one and since you can buy gold with cash, some see it as pay to win if your goal is to get that item.
So where is the incentive to get good at the game?
It’s not there because not everyone have quick reflexes. Not everyone have oodles of free time. So to cater to these players which out number skilled players, just about any item can drop anywhere. If your character has the gold, someone else may be selling one on the TP. If you don’t have the gold but you have a nice bit of spare cash, you can buy the gold you need to buy the item off the TP that you don’t have the skill to get if it was locked up behind specific content.
Almost every complaint can be boiled down to the reward system, which is fair to the general population but “unfair” to the elite skilled population. The fact that nearly every bit of desirable swag in this game can by bought directly or indirectly with gold has created a culture where efficient gold production is more important than simply having fun beating a boss. When beating a high level boss gives you yet another rare speargun while someone else bonks a level 12 critter on the head while passing through a low level map gets a precursor, I can understand the rage.
Now I’m someone more likely to bonk level 12 critters on their heads than run the boss train and it’s nice to know that I have as much of a chance to get X as someone on the train, they feel quite differently on the matter.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
(edited by Behellagh.1468)
It’s a bit indirect but people don’t understand that the way the game works like the level of difficulty, the gemstore, the lack of a trinity, etc… results in a healthy game with plenty of generally satisfied players to do things with. That’s much more important than someone’s personal perceptions and hang ups that shrink to the size of nothing when compared to the importance of the state of the game.
I feel that for what the game tries to do, Anet is rather successful in ‘hiding’ the fact that gems are purchased for gold/money. The only thing they could do better is to remove the money purchase options from the game and make it an internet transaction that is done COMPLETELY outside the game. The only real complaint I can see about ‘intrusion’ is when it starts going through the mechanics of paying for the gems in the game. That is a break in immersion but for me, it’s minor because buying gems isn’t really part of the immersion of the game anyways so if you see it, you’ve already chosen to break out of your immersion.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
It’s a bit indirect but people don’t understand that the way the game works like the level of difficulty, the gemstore, the lack of a trinity, etc… results in a healthy game with plenty of generally satisfied players to do things with. That’s much more important than someone’s personal perceptions and hang ups that shrink to the size of nothing when compared to the importance of the state of the game.
I feel that for what the game tries to do, Anet is rather successful in ‘hiding’ the fact that gems are purchased for gold/money. The only thing they could do better is to remove the money purchase options from the game and make it an internet transaction that is done COMPLETELY outside the game. The only real complaint I can see about ‘intrusion’ is when it starts going through the mechanics of paying for the gems in the game. That is a break in immersion but for me, it’s minor because buying gems isn’t really part of the immersion of the game anyways so if you see it, you’ve already chosen to break out of your immersion.
I don’t exactly know how you come to the perception that this game is in a healthy state. I know this game was designed to also appeal to casual players who don’t want to spend multiple hours a day on this game. However this is just one part of the playerbase. They also wanted to attract the general MMO crowd as well as the GW1 players.
The NPE changes have shown that they don’t think that their game is easy enough for “new players”. However they’re neglecting the other playertypes. PvE in general is pretty unsatisfying, the player has most of the time no impact on the world whatsoever, the most events just respawn 10 -30 minutes later. Almost no events use interesting mechanics or multiple goals to complete the event. This get intensified by the lack of reward events offer. Noone can claim that 2s for completing an event is worth the time. Dungeons suffer even more, although they should be the core feature for the MMO crowd. ANet has no plans to develop new dungeons, so what is left? The Living Story can’t fill the gap for its very own reasons and in a healthy game it wouldn’t have to. So the only thing that is left for the “hardcore players” is the gemstore, which gets expanded on a regular basis.
However while its something to do, it’s not fun to grind for gold all the time.
At last, great games aren’t considered great because they’re so easy, and that’s what ANet is trying to push their game towards, they’re popular because they’re challenging.
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
You’re talking about the core gameplay while he is talking about the core incentive to play this game. You’re right that skins don’t mess with the gameplay but they do mess with the incentive. Other games have the gear-treadmill as incentive to keep playing, while GW2 uses skins as treadmill. This is a sneaky way to devalue shallow Pay-2-Win arguments since you don’t need those skins to “beat the game”. But the difference is that the main driving factor in GW2 are skins. Before acended gear got added you had literally nothing else to go for reward-wise and this is where this arguments turns into P2W again: The challenge in GW2 is not about “beating the game” but about getting all the skins (you want). By putting the majority of new skins into the gemstore they’ve created a pseudo P2W model, which isn’t P2W but feels like it. And in the end it’s about customer satisfaction. And grinding for gold to get the newest skins isn’t satisfactory.
HHR pretty much said exactly what I meant. Skins are the “endgame” in GW2 in the same manner as raid gear is the “endgame” in other MMO’s you’re focusing on the fact it has stats which is irrelevent. It is the ability to get whatever is considered an endgame item.
Since gw2 goes by volume of skins rather than quality it means that all skins are partially considered endgame and you never ever stick endgame in a gemstore.
You’re talking about the core gameplay while he is talking about the core incentive to play this game. You’re right that skins don’t mess with the gameplay but they do mess with the incentive.
Incentive to get a skin doesn’t change depending on how someone else gets it, which is really the point of the poster. A majority of skins are NOT in the gemstore … that’s just a ridiculous thing to say. I don’t even think issues with balance of skins between gemstore and ingame is even relevant. It has nothing to do with the ‘intrusive’ nature of the gemstore.
Some perspective here … The gemstore is MUCH LESS ‘intrusive’ than Anet dipping into our wallet for a monthly fee, however you wish to define intrusive. That’s the only alternative to cash stop.
The whole point of the thread is basically a realization that the ways this game makes money is more obvious while playing the game than other methods like paid expansions, etc… My problem with this realization is that it’s not a hidden secret that we just recently discovered. It’s been like this for 2 years. It’s all very naive actually to think that Anet isn’t going to try selling different things and expanding their gemstore offers to players.
I’m curious of your definition of intrusive, a subscription is far less intrusive, you encounter a real money transaction once a month. Here real money transactions are encountered more frequently, the gem stores presence is shown to you every time you want to use the trading post, weekly updates for the game contain gem store related additions sometimes exclusively. You see people walking around in stuff you know they bought from the gem store, that sticks out far more to me than a once a month payment.
Intrusive is how in your face the whole real world money situation is and I’d rank subscription as fairly subtle and far more importantly does not impact game state by allowing access to items for anything other than your in-game efforts.
Incentive is also partially dependent on who has the item and how they got it. I don’t know why you think it’s not. Take CoF armor for example its usually the very first dungeon set anyone gets and as such newer players are more likely to be wearing it, as a result veteran players are less likely to wear it.
The liandri mini, the value is that it represents a hard challenge that only 5% of the player base could complete, if 50% had access to it far less people would show it because its value and bragging rights are reduced for each additional person with it.
Factors other than the pure visuals of an item are in play when people are choosing what to equip.
[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
I’m curious of your definition of intrusive, a subscription is far less intrusive, you encounter a real money transaction once a month. Here real money transactions are encountered more frequently, the gem stores presence is shown to you every time you want to use the trading post, weekly updates for the game contain gem store related additions sometimes exclusively. You see people walking around in stuff you know they bought from the gem store, that sticks out far more to me than a once a month payment.
Intrusive is how in your face the whole real world money situation is and I’d rank subscription as fairly subtle and far more importantly does not impact game state by allowing access to items for anything other than your in-game efforts.Incentive is also partially dependent on who has the item and how they got it. I don’t know why you think it’s not. Take CoF armor for example its usually the very first dungeon set anyone gets and as such newer players are more likely to be wearing it, as a result veteran players are less likely to wear it.
The liandri mini, the value is that it represents a hard challenge that only 5% of the player base could complete, if 50% had access to it far less people would show it because its value and bragging rights are reduced for each additional person with it.Factors other than the pure visuals of an item are in play when people are choosing what to equip.
But you can’t buy a sub with in-game gold but you can buy gems with gold, so the gem shop isn’t as intrusive.
As for skins = endgame, the difference, is that lower quality gear locks you from doing content (higher tier raids for example), the skins don’t prevent you from doing anything. Also, these skins give prestige for a while, until you get them, there is no IF here, even killing level 1 mobs outside Queensdale will get you any skin you want, the question is only how much time it will take. Putting skins/gear behind content contains the big IF, that is “if you can run that content” to get what you need.
Sure there were loads of skins available only on the gem store, but that seems to be changing (Halloween outfit, Carapace armor etc) there is a clear indication that they are adding more and more gear available in the game instead of the gem store, maybe it will continue like this.
As for skins = endgame, the difference, is that lower quality gear locks you from doing content (higher tier raids for example), the skins don’t prevent you from doing anything. Also, these skins give prestige for a while, until you get them, there is no IF here, even killing level 1 mobs outside Queensdale will get you any skin you want, the question is only how much time it will take. Putting skins/gear behind content contains the big IF, that is “if you can run that content” to get what you need.
That’s the point, except for high tier fractals, there is no gear equirement in GW2. You can complete any content in this game with blue or green gear just fine.
Consider is competition or not, the whole game is build around cosmetics and then selling them or turning them into a gold grind because you want to make money on them is just as intrusive as selling stats in a game where everything is build around fighting each other. Because it messes with the core of the game.
It’s NOT the same as selling stats because stats impact performance. Skins do not. I still don’t understand what makes buying a skin, regardless of the currency source, intrusive so please do explain it.
From my perspective, someone else having a skin is not intruding on anyone’s ability to get, use or enjoy the same skin. In fact, that’s the intent of the game. The number of people that own and how they obtain those skins does not ‘devalue’ items in any way because the value of these skins is purely aesthetic for someone purchasing them. If I buy an item with in-game earned or gem-bought gold, it still looks the same on me and no one knows either way. It doesn’t affect you, you just think it does.
“It’s NOT the same as selling stats because stats impact performance. Skins do not.” I did not say it’s the same it’s just as intrusive. So what that stats are about ‘performance’ and skins about looks. It then just depends what you care about, look or ‘performance’. So at the very least it is personal what is worse but considering GW2 is all based on cosmetics you can even say in GW2 skins are worse.
I am pretty sure in GW2 there are more people interested in better skins then in ascended gear in stead of exotic what exactly proofs my point.
But like I also said before for me personally it’s not just the problem that with cash you can get that stuff easier but that the influence of the cash-shop has a negative effect on the complete game mainly turning it into a gold grind.
“The number of people that own and how they obtain those skins does not ‘devalue’ items in any way” Oow how to obtain for sure does. Thats part of the prestige. Having something that is far more harder to get is more prestige then having the same thing but you could just buy it with some cash or with some brainless grinding. Thats a huge difference.
“and no one knows either way” Indeed that makes it even worse! Because you could have worked hard for it but heey you could also have both it so if you worked hard for it you where basically just punishing yourself. If people see it they don’t give it any value from a prestige perspective because you could have cheated and just spend some bugs on it. About the rarity, also that matters because as soon as you see something a lot it’s less special. But thats not really relevant here.
So it effects it for sure. It’s basically the same as that one painting from one guy has more value then a painting from another guy simply because it’s from that one guy.
However again I like to say again while I agree this is intrusive for me the problem is even more the way it effects the game in general and devaluating items (what this is about) is just one element of that.
At the end of the day, what matters is that NCSOFT is happy.
So far, they seem to be happy since they are not actively firing/ transferring
people from ANET to other projects. In fact, Anet is hiring more people than the other development teams under NCSOFT. So, they have to be doing something right to keep NCSOFT happy.By they, you mean we. We keep spending money on gems.
Please speak for yourself. I never spend a single dime on gems and will never spend a single dime on gems. I won’t support something that is bad for the game.