Guild Wars 2

Balance Philosophy

• Selfish boons, unlike Guardian and Elementalist.
• strong direct damage melee cleave, some bleeds / Torment
• soft cc (blind, weakness, chill, cripple) and some hard cc (short duration kd, pull behind?, immobilize wall?), and higher frequency access to swiftness to keep melee range
• noticeably fewer gap closers than the warrior
• get in, keep the enemy in and take them down before you go down.
• minor team support, via targeted condi removal (burn, chill, cripple, immob)
• weaker vs heavy ranged damage

Lore

• to avoid the issue of the Dervish being tightly coupled to the human Gods, Dervishes in Elona would have taught Wind Prayer and Earth prayers and Mysticism to the other races with the help of Asuran Elementalists (Vekk?) identifying the link between the prayers to the wind and earth magics .

I’d rather they integrate the Dervish into an existing class, with the addition of Scythes as a new weapon.

Kain Francois.4328:

I’d rather they integrate the Dervish into an existing class, with the addition of Scythes as a new weapon.

The following isn’t directed at you specifically, I’ve just seen a couple of posts saying do subclasses instead of adding new professions, so apologies if this is coming across as ranty.

They can do subclasses at some point too, adding new professions does not have to be mutually exclusive to subclasses. ANet still needs to add new professions to the game at some point as well.

Being a Guild Wars 1 vet, I’d like them to do a throw back with one of the new professions they bring in at some point. Dervish is the main one on my mind, with ritualist being a close second.

I personally don’t care about the counter-arguments, as I’ll re-counter them to highlight why the game needs this awesome profession. I just am bringing up the Dervish, because I have a vision for ways it could be implemented, I see them clearly, and they’re really fun on my mind.

The wind and earth prayers I can understand, but I think the weak part of your lore argument is the mysticism. It was the main attribute of the dervishes, and they wouldn’t really be able to teach it, since it all played into the gods and the dervish’s faith in them.

The asura, or any other nonhuman races really (minus the sylvari), might acknowledge the gods’ existence, but they don’t really have any faith in them, and that is one of the key factors of what makes a dervish a dervish. If all one needed was some expanded air and earth magic to play a dervish, it would just be an attunement handicapped elementalist wielding a scythe.

Shockwave.1230:

They can do subclasses at some point too, adding new professions does not have to be mutually exclusive to subclasses. ANet still needs to add new professions to the game at some point as well.

Do you know why we dont have subclasses? Because of the balance. Do you think that the balance of GW2 right now justifies a new layer of complexity? I think the balance team right now has a lot problems balancing the game for all 3 gamemodes.

Shockwave.1230:

Being a Guild Wars 1 vet, I’d like them to do a throw back with one of the new professions they bring in at some point. Dervish is the main one on my mind, with ritualist being a close second.

How would both of those profession be unique in GW2? What would be their class mechanics?

It’s me, who’s the strong origin of the Sub Class Concept that supports it everywhere here, whenever I can and see fit to the topic and who brought it also up in the Character Progression CDI, where the proposal found its likings from the Developers, especialyl the CDI Creator self.
See my Signature, theres the quote of that ones developers opinion about that Concept and Chris self proposed at the end of that CDI, that we will see somewhen in the future an own CDI about Sub Classes, which I’m eagerly waiting for until then …

• Anet turned the Dervish Lore into the overall human lore and made out of it the human racial skills.
• Anet turned the scythes special ability of hittign all nearby foes at the same time into the core feature of Swords, Greatswords, Maces and Axes mostly
• Wind and Earth Prayers were more or less anyway just wannabe Elementalist Skills. They should be the only class, that controls the 4 elements. No one else !!
  So if we should ever see something like Prayers, then I hope for it that this finds into the game under the Elementalist Sub Class of the “Bender” and then again for all 4 elements, not just only widn and earth. (Avatar says HI)
• GW2 has no Enchantments anymore, we have no Boons, so there was abspolutely no place anymore for the Dervishs later added Flash Enchantments.
• the kind of sacred theme/ zealous/light based skills got put into the Guardian completely, its beside of the spirit weapons the most obvious stuff that was moved from GW1 over to GW2 and you can clearly see it with just 1 look of the guardians skills in use and it also reminds slightly on the punishing skills of the monks as if the gameplay concepts there from monks and dervs simple got merged and put into the mesh of a heavy plated soldier class instead.
• scythes have been visually put to the Necromancer as their symbol of death that always plops up when using the Staff, and they have the game a Staff-Scythe reskin and named it Final Rest, what is again a metaph basically towards the reference of the scythe being a tool of death to reap the souls. So if Scythes should ever become actually a weapon with their own skills, it should be then a Necromancer only weapon.

Thats all, besides of these points, the dervish offered absolutely nothing, not any kind of feature, what not already all of the other starting classes were also able to do.
Thats why I once came up with my own concept of how I think ANet should redesign the whole Dervish Concept to give it features, that are new, unique and different for the Dervish, so that this class concept could have at least a good reason to get implemented either as new seperate class, or rather as Guardian-Sub Class together with introducing Halberds as the main weapon of the Mystic.

Halberds are real weapons, Scythes are just farmer’s tools.
Its an old concept poisting of me and surely not perfect, could for sure need here n there some tweaks n polishing:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/suggestions/A-unique-Derv-Redesign-possible-The-Mystic/first#post2646977

A concept, that plays also around a bit with the daytime system of the game, which currently no single class of GW2 does.
However, its a concept from a time, where I haven’t thought about Sub Classes ever before, as said, its an old thread

Kain Francois.4328:

I’d rather they integrate the Dervish into an existing class, with the addition of Scythes as a new weapon.

Except for the fact that that would suck. Dervishes are perfect. Unlike say… 4/5ths of the classes in Gw2.

kokiman.2364:

Shockwave.1230:

They can do subclasses at some point too, adding new professions does not have to be mutually exclusive to subclasses. ANet still needs to add new professions to the game at some point as well.

Do you know why we dont have subclasses? Because of the balance. Do you think that the balance of GW2 right now justifies a new layer of complexity? I think the balance team right now has a lot problems balancing the game for all 3 gamemodes.

You would think after 2 years they would have the classes better balanced, why does this game feel like the longest alpha in the world>? Not Just not ready for release, but…Not ready for beta.

Shockwave.1230:

Shockwave.1230:

Being a Guild Wars 1 vet, I’d like them to do a throw back with one of the new professions they bring in at some point. Dervish is the main one on my mind, with ritualist being a close second.

How would both of those profession be unique in GW2? What would be their class mechanics?

Go play Guild Wars. You’ll see that BOTH of those have better mechanics, and are more fun to play than anything currently in GW2. And let’s Not forget The Assassin.

The Assassin is not a Thief.
The Dervish is not a handicapped Elementalist.
The Ritualist is not anything like an Engineer.

These three classes should be in the game. That Anet doesn’t want to givethem to us, is just a sign that they rather keep putting out Living Story. I am pretty certain that even though they claim that the new season has " Permanent Content" there is no new class, or race, or weapon in the thing, maybe new skills? can I Hope?

If Anet does only 1 thing…. I would come back to play Like I used to, and I am sure many of those that have left, if they heard it, they would come flocking back, In droves….

Sub-classes.

What second thing could they do? Bring back Dervishes, and Ritualists and Assassins.

But…. that would be hard. And it seems that the only hard thing Anet considers doing is putting out skins On the gem store.

Thief evolved from assassin, that is their design, they didnt wanna take the old assassin clearly.

Ritualist/monks/dervishes all of them had their magics wrapped into guardian, Meditations were a dervish thing, well guardians have them now. Healing breeze? Guardian. Spirit weapons, splinter/barrage rangers are no more, we have guardian spirit hammer.

That being said, I want a new proffession that is UNIQUE to guildwars 2. Not a rehash of their old classes. I can play guildwars 1 if I want that.

As for Scythe, it does need to make a come back, for necro though : ^)

Dice Dragon.4326:

Thief evolved from assassin, that is their design, they didnt wanna take the old assassin clearly.

Ritualist/monks/dervishes all of them had their magics wrapped into guardian, Meditations were a dervish thing, well guardians have them now. Healing breeze? Guardian. Spirit weapons, splinter/barrage rangers are no more, we have guardian spirit hammer.

That being said, I want a new proffession that is UNIQUE to guildwars 2. Not a rehash of their old classes. I can play guildwars 1 if I want that.

As for Scythe, it does need to make a come back, for necro though : ^)

While a Lot is included in the Guardian, the thing that isn’t is the dervish playstyle.

A Dervish buffs Himself for each mob Hit with his scythe. That is Not included In the guardian, and that is what makes a Dervish, a Dervish..a whirling Dervish…. Guardians don’t whirl.

Secondly, an Assassin may have had some things given to the thief….but it is NOT a thief. A thief, is a handicapped assassin as I see it.

I do agree with One thing a Lot of people have said. They do not want anything in the game that is hard.

New classes would be hard. Old classes would be hard… balancing what they have now is hard.

I think the main reason is, Most employees are not working on game balance, they are in the gem shop, the PR department, and other aspects of the game that are more likely to bring in revenue.

It’s easier to put out a new armor or weapon skin, than it is to balance classes. And Schlocking it brings in more cash.

Nerelith.7360:

A Dervish buffs Himself for each mob Hit with his scythe. That is Not included In the guardian, and that is what makes a Dervish, a Dervish..a whirling Dervish…. Guardians don’t whirl.

While I think the similarities between Dervishes and Guardians are minimal at best (sacrificing buffs), how you described the Dervish wasn’t how the Dervish worked.

For the most part, Dervishes would buff themselves and then strip the buff to add an additional effect to their attacks.

For example, Rending Sweep would deal damage, but if it stripped an enchantment off of the Dervish, it’d also strip an Enchantment off of the target as well.

Nerelith.7360:

The Ritualist is not anything like an Engineer.

They both share a common theme – Stationary turret summoner.

Weapon spells got reworked into Kits
Spirits got reworked in Turrents

Erukk.1408:

The wind and earth prayers I can understand, but I think the weak part of your lore argument is the mysticism. It was the main attribute of the dervishes, and they wouldn’t really be able to teach it, since it all played into the gods and the dervish’s faith in them.

The asura, or any other nonhuman races really (minus the sylvari), might acknowledge the gods’ existence, but they don’t really have any faith in them, and that is one of the key factors of what makes a dervish a dervish. If all one needed was some expanded air and earth magic to play a dervish, it would just be an attunement handicapped elementalist wielding a scythe.

I like your interpretation on Mysticism. Instead of faith in the human gods, it can be driven by faith in something. Each of the races have something they believe in from the dream to the eternal alchemy.

I disagree with the argument that about Dervish being a handicapped elementalist playing with a scythe, because that same argument can be applied to Guild Wars 1, yet the profession was unique and fun.

kokiman.2364:

Shockwave.1230:

They can do subclasses at some point too, adding new professions does not have to be mutually exclusive to subclasses. ANet still needs to add new professions to the game at some point as well.

Do you know why we dont have subclasses? Because of the balance. Do you think that the balance of GW2 right now justifies a new layer of complexity? I think the balance team right now has a lot problems balancing the game for all 3 gamemodes.

Honestly, I’m not a fan of the subclass idea at all in this game, because I feel like secondary professions was a better idea. That said, some people are a fan, and there’s nothing for me to say negatively about the idea as it potentially can be implemented well, but to your point it could also not be implemented well.

kokiman.2364:

Shockwave.1230:

Being a Guild Wars 1 vet, I’d like them to do a throw back with one of the new professions they bring in at some point. Dervish is the main one on my mind, with ritualist being a close second.

How would both of those profession be unique in GW2? What would be their class mechanics?

For the Dervish one thing that could be done is they’d have their skill concepts, and their profession mechanic could be Wind and Earth Prayers. Depending on the prayer their skills, which wouldn’t change in animation or the main concept would just change in combat effect and particle effects. Maybe they have a wall skill concept that effects movement speed, so when imbued with Earth Prayers the wall does immobilize, or if imbued with Wind Prayers the wall does chill or swiftness.

Imbuing prayers could be done in a way that they can be imbued into skills only every so often with strong effects. It could be that the prayers have a cast time, and while being cast the dervish gains boons, like stability, protection and retal for earth or stability, swiftness, and regen for air, then their next several attack have some effect depending on the prayer. This can be played with various ways, prayers could last a number of attacks, a certain duration, the magnitude of effects could be increased/decreased depending on the number of attacks/duration.

Imbuing prayers into skills could be done similarly to the elementalists attunements instead though, where you swap between prayers but have a second or so delay until prayer actually takes effect. Thinking through that, with no recharge on swap, it could allow you to queue up and time swapping between prayers and try landing different combinations of effects as you use your attacks (because your attack concept doesn’t change much between prayers just the kind of effect that goes with it).

Don’t forget Dervish’s main attribute used to affect self-removal of enchantments, so if Dervishes are to be implemented into GW2, it’s possible that “pious” skills would remove basic boons, mystic, wind or earth “boons” for after effect from the “pious” skill itself or/and the removed enchantment end effect.
Then there could be “natural” skills that work only if you don’t have boons or Dervish “boons”.

Perhaps if you’re so obsessed with weapon swap cooldown, Dervish could have trait that reduces the swap cooldown, if x number of boons are removed on weapon swap.

Even though the attribute was changed to affect energy cost of dervish enchantments, self-removal of enchantments was still one of the core features of Dervish.

Although if looking at GW2, Necromancers don’t have the health sacrifice type skills in the game, quite similar to Dervish self-removal of enchantments…

Orpheal.8263:

- snip -

Non of the counter-arguements here make the Dervish mutually exclusive to Guild Wars 2.

• The Human tie-in can be dealt with in various ways, such as the one mentioned.
• The scythe is not suddenly a bad idea because of other cleave weapons. ANet could have just done 1 bow weapon, and called it a Bow, but instead they have a Shortbow and Longbow, because they are different weapons.
• Elementalist having element magics didn’t stop dervishes from having prayers in Guild Wars 1, further discussion not necessary.
• Boons are like enchantments, and the dervish always had selfish enchantments, which is why one of the philosophies mentioned is selfish boons. Flash enchantments were basically stances that could be stacked, not sure the relevance you were getting to.
• Sacred themes existed in the monk as well, and kind of in the Paragon too. Monk, Paragon and Dervish were in Guild Wars. In Guild Wars 2 Ranger and Guardian share a spirit theme. Ranger also shares the element theme with the elementalist slightly. Thief and Mesmer share the trickery theme.
• Necromancer only scythes is strictly your opinion, there’s nothing to counter and no substance objectively.
• Some professions can play similarly, the heavies in Guild Wars 2 do if you choose to do so. In GW1 warrior existed before the dervish, it already had a major role the dervish would take on. In fact, any change to professions, be them sub-classes or new professions, the roles already exist, so no matter what roles will be shared (as some of them already are).
• Scythes being farmer tools has never stopped fantasy settings from making them cool and fun. Soul Eater or other various animes are good examples, Guild Wars is a good example.

Ultimately what the Dervish being implemented comes down to is the devs being convinced it would be good for the game, and that there’s demand for it. There’s no counter-argument that stop someone who has there mind set on something. Look at some of the devs’ actions, stealth for example has loads of haters, yet the devs have there mind set that it’s a good thing, so they haven’t removed it, they’ve just tweaked it since launch. I’m in the camp that the Dervish would be awesome, and I can see ways that it will be. Would it need work? Like any other profession, yes.

TL;DR of most of the posts ; Old classes wrapped into new classes = new classes aren’t the exact same as the old ones = QQ.

I dont see any problem with having a dervish type prof intrduced to the game. They can just like the monk have been passing down the art. And along the way they went into more heavy/bunker type scythe wealding class.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nerelith.7360:

A Dervish buffs Himself for each mob Hit with his scythe. That is Not included In the guardian, and that is what makes a Dervish, a Dervish..a whirling Dervish…. Guardians don’t whirl.

While I think the similarities between Dervishes and Guardians are minimal at best (sacrificing buffs), how you described the Dervish wasn’t how the Dervish worked.

For the most part, Dervishes would buff themselves and then strip the buff to add an additional effect to their attacks.

For example, Rending Sweep would deal damage, but if it stripped an enchantment off of the Dervish, it’d also strip an Enchantment off of the target as well.

You just made my point. But they also had attacks where they would recoup health, by a certain amount per mob hit. ets. So when you think about it…Nope, Nothing Like a Guardian in feel…or playstyle. Even if they buff… that’s all they do… that is similar… Buff. may as well say the Guardian is Like the World of warcraft Brewmaster… because they also self buff.

Nerelith.7360:

Nerelith.7360:

The Ritualist is not anything like an Engineer.

They both share a common theme – Stationary turret summoner.

Except that the Ritualist enhances their spirits. The Engineer doesn’t. They may have things in common…but then again, may as well ay that the Engineer is Like the World of warcraft Shaman. But deep down…are they?

Weapon spells got reworked into Kits
Spirits got reworked in Turrents

They have a few things In common…but no… I do not see anything similar between weapon spells and kits, may as well say that weapon kits are the same as elementalist attunements. In which case One begins to feel that..a Lot of Gw2 seems to just be stuff copy/pasted from other games…or from itself.

Nerelith.7360:

You just made my point. But they also had attacks where they would recoup health, by a certain amount per mob hit. ets. So when you think about it…Nope, Nothing Like a Guardian in feel…or playstyle. Even if they buff… that’s all they do… that is similar… Buff. may as well say the Guardian is Like the World of warcraft Brewmaster… because they also self buff.

I didn’t say Guardian played like a Dervish. I said the only similarity was the whole ‘sacrificing buff’ thing – Dervish did it to enhance themselves, Guardian does it for allies.

And yes, while Dervishes have attacks like that, they’re are more known for the mechanic of Flash Enchantments and stripping them to boost attacks.

Nerelith.7360:

Except that the Ritualist enhances their spirits. The Engineer doesn’t. They may have things in common…but then again, may as well ay that the Engineer is Like the World of warcraft Shaman. But deep down…are they?

The Engineer can enhance their turrets through Traits though.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nerelith.7360:

You just made my point. But they also had attacks where they would recoup health, by a certain amount per mob hit. ets. So when you think about it…Nope, Nothing Like a Guardian in feel…or playstyle. Even if they buff… that’s all they do… that is similar… Buff. may as well say the Guardian is Like the World of warcraft Brewmaster… because they also self buff.

I didn’t say Guardian played like a Dervish. I said the only similarity was the whole ‘sacrificing buff’ thing – Dervish did it to enhance themselves, Guardian does it for allies.

And yes, while Dervishes have attacks like that, they’re are more known for the mechanic of Flash Enchantments and stripping them to boost attacks.

Nerelith.7360:

Except that the Ritualist enhances their spirits. The Engineer doesn’t. They may have things in common…but then again, may as well ay that the Engineer is Like the World of warcraft Shaman. But deep down…are they?

The Engineer can enhance their turrets through Traits though.

That doesn’t give the same effect. The Ritualist had skill that enhanced their spirits. The had skills that would heal for more… based on how many spirits they had out. Thay had spells that would saccrifice all their spirits for a big damage spike… the Ritualist could do a hell of a Lot more with their spirits… without having " traits". Fresh out of the box.

Sorry, but while I can see that they may have borrowed from Ritualist to make the engineer, they made the engineer a sub-par ritualist.

Fact is, while I wait for Gw2 devs to do the right thing, I am going back to another game who’se name cannot be mentioned.. The irony is, it came before Gw2…. as can be told by it’s name. But It cannot be named. I’ll give a hint, the name rhymes with Build Stores.

@ Shockwave:

Personally I don’t care about your obsession with Dervishs.
As much as you want them back in the game, as much I don’t want them back regardless of what you say.
So discussing with me over Dervs getting added is pointless, because whatever argument you will bring,I can tell you, the already existign classes could do it also and it would be just easier for Anet to improve the existing classes and let them progress via Sub Classes, which in the end would lead to the same goal, like what you want, but just with taking a different path, which I think is on the long run for the whole game absolutely better, than to put into the game just a boring old GW1 rehashed Clone.

Fact is, you will never see Dervishs coming back as 100% GW1 Clones. Deal with it.
If ever something dervish based should get added to this game, it would just make only sense to improve the Guardian with it, because from all existing Classes, the Guardian already feels the most like being the Dervish-Descendants.

• They have Virtues, which are exactly the Sacrifice Boons- Gain Bonus Effect Gameplay
• They have a 2H Weapon, with that they can deal a whirling attack, see GS 2, so saying Guardians are no Dervs, because they don’t whirl is childish nonsense to whoever argumentated with this point before and if you just don’t like that skill, because its animation uses a Greatsword over a Scythe, thats your personal problem. But the fact stays, its a whirling attack …
• Guardians have the same holy zealot fire theme, as like Dervishs, that causes their foes to suffer on Burnings
• The only thing that they haven’t from Dervishs are their Avatars, but as said, this feature got recycled into the Human Racial Skills

Orpheal.8263:

@ Shockwave:

Personally I don’t care about your obsession with Dervishs.
As much as you want them back in the game, as much I don’t want them back regardless of what you say.
So discussing with me over Dervs getting added is pointless, because whatever argument you will bring,I can tell you, the already existign classes could do it also and it would be just easier for Anet to improve the existing classes and let them progress via Sub Classes, which in the end would lead to the same goal, like what you want, but just with taking a different path, which I think is on the long run for the whole game absolutely better, than to put into the game just a boring old GW1 rehashed Clone.

Fact is, you will never see Dervishs coming back as 100% GW1 Clones. Deal with it.
If ever something dervish based should get added to this game, it would just make only sense to improve the Guardian with it, because from all existing Classes, the Guardian already feels the most like being the Dervish-Descendants.

• They have Virtues, which are exactly the Sacrifice Boons- Gain Bonus Effect Gameplay
• They have a 2H Weapon, with that they can deal a whirling attack, see GS 2, so saying Guardians are no Dervs, because they don’t whirl is childish nonsense to whoever argumentated with this point before and if you just don’t like that skill, because its animation uses a Greatsword over a Scythe, thats your personal problem. But the fact stays, its a whirling attack …
• Guardians have the same holy zealot fire theme, as like Dervishs, that causes their foes to suffer on Burnings
• The only thing that they haven’t from Dervishs are their Avatars, but as said, this feature got recycled into the Human Racial Skills

Anyone can apply your own argument to any of your suggestions, I’m not trying to convince you though.

I haven’t been posting to copy paste them in. What I’m posting are things I’d like to see in the game’s future, because I see how fun it’ll be. ANet can take or leave my suggestions, it’s of no loss to me if they don’t use them.

I’ve already adequately countered these reused arguments, no additonal comments necessary. Check my prior post if you’d like.

I am glad you continue to post though. It provides more visibility into the lack of meaningful objective counters, plus the more attention the thread gets the more influence the topic gains. Thanks for that and for allowing me to critically think and problem solve regarding this topic.

Nerelith.7360:

That doesn’t give the same effect. The Ritualist had skill that enhanced their spirits. The had skills that would heal for more… based on how many spirits they had out. Thay had spells that would sacrifice all their spirits for a big damage spike… the Ritualist could do a hell of a Lot more with their spirits… without having " traits". Fresh out of the box.

Sorry, but while I can see that they may have borrowed from Ritualist to make the engineer, they made the engineer a sub-par ritualist.

You’ve seemed to got that mixed up. In your example, the Spirits enhance your spells, not the other way around – and yes, I am aware that there were skills that enhanced Spirits (Armour of Unfeeling, for example).

Also, one of the attributes of the Ritualist (Spawning Power, I think), passively enhanced the creatures you spawned. Much like how Traits passively enhance Turrets.

At the end of the day, you won’t get an exact same clone as a profession from GW1 because of different gameplay systems.

For example, chances are they would have taken the skill Destruction and turned it into a Trait – something like “When a Spirit dies, it deals damage to nearby foes”, or Explosive Growth would have been converted to a Trait as well; “Deal damage when you summon a Spirit”.

For the sake of it, take the Engineer back to GW1:

• The Trait Accelerant-Packed Turrets would become a skill that would deal damage and cause knockdown to nearby foes, sacrificing all turrets.
• The Trait Metal Plating would become a skill (similar to Armour of Unfeeling, funnily enough).

In your eyes, simply because of the difference in systems, any profession put into GW2 will be a sub-par version of the GW1 counterpart.

Nerelith.7360:

Fact is, while I wait for Gw2 devs to do the right thing…

What’s that, exactly?

Shockwave.1230:

Balance Philosophy

• Selfish boons, unlike Guardian and Elementalist.
• strong direct damage melee cleave, some bleeds / Torment
• soft cc (blind, weakness, chill, cripple) and some hard cc (short duration kd, pull behind?, immobilize wall?), and higher frequency access to swiftness to keep melee range
• noticeably fewer gap closers than the warrior
• get in, keep the enemy in and take them down before you go down.
• minor team support, via targeted condi removal (burn, chill, cripple, immob)
• weaker vs heavy ranged damage

Lore

• to avoid the issue of the Dervish being tightly coupled to the human Gods, Dervishes in Elona would have taught Wind Prayer and Earth prayers and Mysticism to the other races with the help of Asuran Elementalists (Vekk?) identifying the link between the prayers to the wind and earth magics .

Am I the only one that reads “necromancer” in his description? The necro is known to be selfish (Blood is power for might, Spectral Walk and Armor), has access to lot of bleeds (even Power specs have bleed on crits), DS gives torment. Soft and Hard cc, necro has the wells for this, staff marks, dagger 3 for immob, and the scepter for cripple, axe 3, focus 5…. It has a lot fewer gap closers than warrior (DS2, and a grab with Spectral Grasp). The philosophy of “get in, keep the enemy in” follows the same train of though and thus is also typical of necromancers. Swiftness… You have Spectral Walk, Signet of Locusts, Warhorn 5 and the Quickening Thirst and Speed of Shadows traits. For condi removal, Unholy Martyr helps along with a Well of Power and Plague Signet. As for weaker against ranged damage… This is vague to me, but given the low numbers of gap closers, I say it’s true as well.

What lacks is what many necromancers have been asking for for a long time now: a melee cleave weapon. You basically want a necromancer with a scythe. For the “dervish-specific” skills, well, humans have them as racial skills. For the other mechanics they had in GW1 (e.g. enchantments), it can’t be done in GW2.

And for the lore justifications… I am really not convinced. I don’t see Asuras teaching stuff to other races for one, and translating prayers to magic so that other races can use it doesn’t make sense to me.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nerelith.7360:

That doesn’t give the same effect. The Ritualist had skill that enhanced their spirits. The had skills that would heal for more… based on how many spirits they had out. Thay had spells that would sacrifice all their spirits for a big damage spike… the Ritualist could do a hell of a Lot more with their spirits… without having " traits". Fresh out of the box.

Sorry, but while I can see that they may have borrowed from Ritualist to make the engineer, they made the engineer a sub-par ritualist.

You’ve seemed to got that mixed up. In your example, the Spirits enhance your spells, not the other way around – and yes, I am aware that there were skills that enhanced Spirits (Armour of Unfeeling, for example).

Also, one of the attributes of the Ritualist (Spawning Power, I think), passively enhanced the creatures you spawned. Much like how Traits passively enhance Turrets.

At the end of the day, you won’t get an exact same clone as a profession from GW1 because of different gameplay systems.

For example, chances are they would have taken the skill Destruction and turned it into a Trait – something like “When a Spirit dies, it deals damage to nearby foes”, or Explosive Growth would have been converted to a Trait as well; “Deal damage when you summon a Spirit”.

For the sake of it, take the Engineer back to GW1:

• The Trait Accelerant-Packed Turrets would become a skill that would deal damage and cause knockdown to nearby foes, sacrificing all turrets.
• The Trait Metal Plating would become a skill (similar to Armour of Unfeeling, funnily enough).

In your eyes, simply because of the difference in systems, any profession put into GW2 will be a sub-par version of the GW1 counterpart.

Nerelith.7360:

Fact is, while I wait for Gw2 devs to do the right thing…

What’s that, exactly?

What is that exactly? Give me Guild Wars 2. Not a generic MMO with a tyrian skin.

The Only thing this has In common with Guild wars is the name, and some lore. The name of some skills. and that’s it.

When you leave out some CORE concepts from the first game… and use the excuse." that would be hard." you lose the goodwill you built up with me.

When I go to see The Godfather II, I expect to see members of Organized Crime , involved In Criminal endeavors… people trying to either lock them up, or stab them In the back..I don’t expect core ideas on The Godfather to be missing. I don’t expect to see Michael Corleone decide to open up a bar.. and have Clemenza and Tom decide to drop By to chat and make funny jokes. “Cheers” is Not the sequel to The Godfather, and Gw2, is not the sequel to Guild Wars.

Whwn I play Guild Wars 2…I expected sore skills, and Not have them locked In weapons, becauyse it makes " devs Jobs easier."

That reminds me of a quote from A League of their own, with Tom Hanks , and Geena Davis.

She’s leaving baseball, and Tom thinks she has it in her to be great.

The Hard is what makes it great.

Askherion.4935:

Shockwave.1230:

Balance Philosophy

• Selfish boons, unlike Guardian and Elementalist.
• strong direct damage melee cleave, some bleeds / Torment
• soft cc (blind, weakness, chill, cripple) and some hard cc (short duration kd, pull behind?, immobilize wall?), and higher frequency access to swiftness to keep melee range
• noticeably fewer gap closers than the warrior
• get in, keep the enemy in and take them down before you go down.
• minor team support, via targeted condi removal (burn, chill, cripple, immob)
• weaker vs heavy ranged damage

Lore

• to avoid the issue of the Dervish being tightly coupled to the human Gods, Dervishes in Elona would have taught Wind Prayer and Earth prayers and Mysticism to the other races with the help of Asuran Elementalists (Vekk?) identifying the link between the prayers to the wind and earth magics .

Am I the only one that reads “necromancer” in his description? The necro is known to be selfish (Blood is power for might, Spectral Walk and Armor), has access to lot of bleeds (even Power specs have bleed on crits), DS gives torment. Soft and Hard cc, necro has the wells for this, staff marks, dagger 3 for immob, and the scepter for cripple, axe 3, focus 5…. It has a lot fewer gap closers than warrior (DS2, and a grab with Spectral Grasp). The philosophy of “get in, keep the enemy in” follows the same train of though and thus is also typical of necromancers. Swiftness… You have Spectral Walk, Signet of Locusts, Warhorn 5 and the Quickening Thirst and Speed of Shadows traits. For condi removal, Unholy Martyr helps along with a Well of Power and Plague Signet. As for weaker against ranged damage… This is vague to me, but given the low numbers of gap closers, I say it’s true as well.

What lacks is what many necromancers have been asking for for a long time now: a melee cleave weapon. You basically want a necromancer with a scythe. For the “dervish-specific” skills, well, humans have them as racial skills. For the other mechanics they had in GW1 (e.g. enchantments), it can’t be done in GW2.

And for the lore justifications… I am really not convinced. I don’t see Asuras teaching stuff to other races for one, and translating prayers to magic so that other races can use it doesn’t make sense to me.

Dervish are not necromancers with scythes, you really should play The original game, and create a dervish, then create a necromancer, you will see they are different, and No… people wanting to play a dervish are not stepping on Necromancer toes. the scythe is not a weapon that " we asked for it first." The Scythe has always been a dervish weapon.

@Nerelith

I got to ask; did you do any research on the game at all before buying it? Because it sounds like you didn’t and sort of assumed they were just remaking GW with better graphics, jumping and a more open world.

Not saying what Anet did was right or wrong (I still enjoy both GW and GW2) but I can understand why they did certain things. I even like the idea behind certain things, such as weapon skills being locked. It makes weapons more than a stat stick.

All in all for the most part, I’m glad they decided to make GW2 different from GW. It provides me with two different gameplay experiences. But that’s just me.

@Nerelith

I know dervishes are not necromancers with scythes. I also know what a Dervish was in GW1 and how the necromancer differs between GW1 and 2. I was simply referring to the “balance philosophy” Shockwave talked about, and how the role he described was already filled by the Necromancer from GW2. I also didn’t say “we asked for the scythe first”, just that what he wants was best described by the current Necromancer from GW2 with the addition of a scythe.

TheDaiBish.9735:

@Nerelith

I got to ask; did you do any research on the game at all before buying it? Because it sounds like you didn’t and sort of assumed they were just remaking GW with better graphics, jumping and a more open world.

Not saying what Anet did was right or wrong (I still enjoy both GW and GW2) but I can understand why they did certain things. I even like the idea behind certain things, such as weapon skills being locked. It makes weapons more than a stat stick.

All in all for the most part, I’m glad they decided to make GW2 different from GW. It provides me with two different gameplay experiences. But that’s just me.

I did do research on the game, but nowhere do i remember anyone saying there would be No sub-classes.

Secondly, while I also remember that they said that skills would be weapon locked, as a Player of Guild Wars, with it’s Literally HUNDREDS of skills…I also did not remember them saying.." oh… you only get 4 or 6 weapons… so skills will be scarce."

I also remember an AI that used skills similar to what you yourself had On your skill bar being used by mobs against you, No where do I remember the devs saying " well, combat will basically be a HUGE HP Pool, bosses being able to ONE hit Kill you… "

Lastly I remember that part of the core experience of Guild wars was Elite Signet captures… My favorite part of the game.

I Understand the devs did NOT say these would be IN the game. but…

Coppola did NOT have to say The Godfather II was about the Corleone family, and their Involvement in Organized Crime….

That was sort of understood.

Nerelith.7360:

TheDaiBish.9735:

@Nerelith

I got to ask; did you do any research on the game at all before buying it? Because it sounds like you didn’t and sort of assumed they were just remaking GW with better graphics, jumping and a more open world.

Not saying what Anet did was right or wrong (I still enjoy both GW and GW2) but I can understand why they did certain things. I even like the idea behind certain things, such as weapon skills being locked. It makes weapons more than a stat stick.

All in all for the most part, I’m glad they decided to make GW2 different from GW. It provides me with two different gameplay experiences. But that’s just me.

I did do research on the game, but nowhere do i remember anyone saying there would be No sub-classes.

Secondly, while I also remember that they said that skills would be weapon locked, as a Player of Guild Wars, with it’s Literally HUNDREDS of skills…I also did not remember them saying.." oh… you only get 4 or 6 weapons… so skills will be scarce."

I also remember an AI that used skills similar to what you yourself had On your skill bar being used by mobs against you, No where do I remember the devs saying " well, combat will basically be a HUGE HP Pool, bosses being able to ONE hit Kill you… "

Lastly I remember that part of the core experience of Guild wars was Elite Signet captures… My favorite part of the game.

I Understand the devs did NOT say these would be IN the game. but…

Coppola did NOT have to say The Godfather II was about the Corleone family, and their Involvement in Organized Crime….

That was sort of understood.

Wow…so you asumed alot of things. That’s a pretty ignorant thing to do.

I honestly can’t draw any conclusion at all between Necros of GW2 and Dervishes. I think its just grabbing at straws because Necros would look cool with a scythe. No doub,t weapons don’t have to be exclusive, no weapons are exclusive. That being said, dervishes would be really hard to implement given that the “enchantment” in this game is based on boons largely, and that while some classes have “selfish boons” I.E Spectral Walk or Warrior Stances etc, having a class who’s skill pool is made of Special Status’s and Boons etc would break the equilibrium of the game, or what ever the game has that is close to equilibrium.

It may work if said enchantments are treated like boons and can be stripped ripped and corrupted (Porn name inc) like normal boons.
Forms wouldn’t be an issue as we already have a ton of forums no biggy.

I hate the argument about how there is no grenth, no balthazar, no underworld etc.
There is proof all over the game that the Gods are there, they just don’t care or can’t intervene with whats going on in Tyria.
The Underworld is MORE prevalent in GW2 than in Gw1 in the sense that I can’t go 15 feet without finding an Attax or Shade or a “Portal to the Underworld”. It’s like freiken pouring over into the realm of the living.

Anywho back on topic, yeah it would be great to have Dervs/ Sins/ Monks/ Rits back.
Engi is not a Rit, Thief can’t even lick the Sins boots, Guards have nothing on Monks.

Nerelith.7360:

kokiman.2364:

Shockwave.1230:

They can do subclasses at some point too, adding new professions does not have to be mutually exclusive to subclasses. ANet still needs to add new professions to the game at some point as well.

Do you know why we dont have subclasses? Because of the balance. Do you think that the balance of GW2 right now justifies a new layer of complexity? I think the balance team right now has a lot problems balancing the game for all 3 gamemodes.

You would think after 2 years they would have the classes better balanced, why does this game feel like the longest alpha in the world>? Not Just not ready for release, but…Not ready for beta.

Shockwave.1230:

Shockwave.1230:

Being a Guild Wars 1 vet, I’d like them to do a throw back with one of the new professions they bring in at some point. Dervish is the main one on my mind, with ritualist being a close second.

How would both of those profession be unique in GW2? What would be their class mechanics?

Go play Guild Wars. You’ll see that BOTH of those have better mechanics, and are more fun to play than anything currently in GW2. And let’s Not forget The Assassin.

The Assassin is not a Thief.
The Dervish is not a handicapped Elementalist.
The Ritualist is not anything like an Engineer.

These three classes should be in the game. That Anet doesn’t want to givethem to us, is just a sign that they rather keep putting out Living Story. I am pretty certain that even though they claim that the new season has " Permanent Content" there is no new class, or race, or weapon in the thing, maybe new skills? can I Hope?

If Anet does only 1 thing…. I would come back to play Like I used to, and I am sure many of those that have left, if they heard it, they would come flocking back, In droves….

Sub-classes.

What second thing could they do? Bring back Dervishes, and Ritualists and Assassins.

But…. that would be hard. And it seems that the only hard thing Anet considers doing is putting out skins On the gem store.

Mesmer is not Mesmer..

gw1 mesmer more&less http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Effective_mesmer_guide
gw2 Mesmer, example in GvG Veil bot.. (except veil there is no seat for mesmer)

by randomly i saw thsis link.. mostly agree on them about mesmer.. http://www.toptiertactics.com/14669/guild-wars-2-how-arenanet-ruined-the-mesmer/
————————————
however we can say Guild wars `2` is not Guidwars1 (just new game.. who use guildwars tag) [anet would use another name than guildwars it would better i think]

Azo.5860:

Nerelith.7360:

kokiman.2364:

Shockwave.1230:

They can do subclasses at some point too, adding new professions does not have to be mutually exclusive to subclasses. ANet still needs to add new professions to the game at some point as well.

Do you know why we dont have subclasses? Because of the balance. Do you think that the balance of GW2 right now justifies a new layer of complexity? I think the balance team right now has a lot problems balancing the game for all 3 gamemodes.

You would think after 2 years they would have the classes better balanced, why does this game feel like the longest alpha in the world>? Not Just not ready for release, but…Not ready for beta.

Shockwave.1230:

Shockwave.1230:

Being a Guild Wars 1 vet, I’d like them to do a throw back with one of the new professions they bring in at some point. Dervish is the main one on my mind, with ritualist being a close second.

How would both of those profession be unique in GW2? What would be their class mechanics?

Go play Guild Wars. You’ll see that BOTH of those have better mechanics, and are more fun to play than anything currently in GW2. And let’s Not forget The Assassin.

The Assassin is not a Thief.
The Dervish is not a handicapped Elementalist.
The Ritualist is not anything like an Engineer.

These three classes should be in the game. That Anet doesn’t want to givethem to us, is just a sign that they rather keep putting out Living Story. I am pretty certain that even though they claim that the new season has " Permanent Content" there is no new class, or race, or weapon in the thing, maybe new skills? can I Hope?

If Anet does only 1 thing…. I would come back to play Like I used to, and I am sure many of those that have left, if they heard it, they would come flocking back, In droves….

Sub-classes.

What second thing could they do? Bring back Dervishes, and Ritualists and Assassins.

But…. that would be hard. And it seems that the only hard thing Anet considers doing is putting out skins On the gem store.

Mesmer is not Mesmer..

gw1 mesmer more&less http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Effective_mesmer_guide
gw2 Mesmer, example in GvG Veil bot.. (except veil there is no seat for mesmer)

by randomly i saw thsis link.. mostly agree on them about mesmer.. http://www.toptiertactics.com/14669/guild-wars-2-how-arenanet-ruined-the-mesmer/
————————————
however we can say Guild wars `2` is not Guidwars1 (just new game.. who use guildwars tag) [anet would use another name than guildwars it would better i think]

Yeah, Im currently playing the mesmer as my main. But after reading this, I can’t really stop the tears from coming. I want my lyssa loving back!

So if they even think about taking back dervish, I really really hope that they don’t change them all that much.

Sidenote;
Weapons for a possible dervish in gw2 should be.
1. Scythe (daa), A little bit of everything.
2. Spears; Single target, conditions.
3. Greatswords; Cc/tanky.
4. Stavs; Support:ish. Ench…etc.

Nerelith.7360:

Askherion.4935:

Shockwave.1230:

Balance Philosophy

• Selfish boons, unlike Guardian and Elementalist.
• strong direct damage melee cleave, some bleeds / Torment
• soft cc (blind, weakness, chill, cripple) and some hard cc (short duration kd, pull behind?, immobilize wall?), and higher frequency access to swiftness to keep melee range
• noticeably fewer gap closers than the warrior
• get in, keep the enemy in and take them down before you go down.
• minor team support, via targeted condi removal (burn, chill, cripple, immob)
• weaker vs heavy ranged damage

Lore

• to avoid the issue of the Dervish being tightly coupled to the human Gods, Dervishes in Elona would have taught Wind Prayer and Earth prayers and Mysticism to the other races with the help of Asuran Elementalists (Vekk?) identifying the link between the prayers to the wind and earth magics .

Am I the only one that reads “necromancer” in his description? The necro is known to be selfish (Blood is power for might, Spectral Walk and Armor), has access to lot of bleeds (even Power specs have bleed on crits), DS gives torment. Soft and Hard cc, necro has the wells for this, staff marks, dagger 3 for immob, and the scepter for cripple, axe 3, focus 5…. It has a lot fewer gap closers than warrior (DS2, and a grab with Spectral Grasp). The philosophy of “get in, keep the enemy in” follows the same train of though and thus is also typical of necromancers. Swiftness… You have Spectral Walk, Signet of Locusts, Warhorn 5 and the Quickening Thirst and Speed of Shadows traits. For condi removal, Unholy Martyr helps along with a Well of Power and Plague Signet. As for weaker against ranged damage… This is vague to me, but given the low numbers of gap closers, I say it’s true as well.

What lacks is what many necromancers have been asking for for a long time now: a melee cleave weapon. You basically want a necromancer with a scythe. For the “dervish-specific” skills, well, humans have them as racial skills. For the other mechanics they had in GW1 (e.g. enchantments), it can’t be done in GW2.

And for the lore justifications… I am really not convinced. I don’t see Asuras teaching stuff to other races for one, and translating prayers to magic so that other races can use it doesn’t make sense to me.

Dervish are not necromancers with scythes, you really should play The original game, and create a dervish, then create a necromancer, you will see they are different, and No… people wanting to play a dervish are not stepping on Necromancer toes. the scythe is not a weapon that " we asked for it first." The Scythe has always been a dervish weapon.

Correct, but to his point about other professions doing what the Dervish would do, that is true of any profession change or addition. Since launch every role in the game has been fulfilled that will be in the game. Healer and interrupter aren’t a part of the game’s design like the original guild Wars.

So as I’ve mentioned previously it doesn’t toaster what the profession change is. There will be overlapping roles.

If you’re saying that’s an argument against adding a profession you’re saying you are for not changing the game from a profession stand point.

Mishee.5719:

Azo.5860:

Nerelith.7360:

kokiman.2364:

Shockwave.1230:

They can do subclasses at some point too, adding new professions does not have to be mutually exclusive to subclasses. ANet still needs to add new professions to the game at some point as well.

Do you know why we dont have subclasses? Because of the balance. Do you think that the balance of GW2 right now justifies a new layer of complexity? I think the balance team right now has a lot problems balancing the game for all 3 gamemodes.

You would think after 2 years they would have the classes better balanced, why does this game feel like the longest alpha in the world>? Not Just not ready for release, but…Not ready for beta.

Shockwave.1230:

Shockwave.1230:

Being a Guild Wars 1 vet, I’d like them to do a throw back with one of the new professions they bring in at some point. Dervish is the main one on my mind, with ritualist being a close second.

How would both of those profession be unique in GW2? What would be their class mechanics?

Go play Guild Wars. You’ll see that BOTH of those have better mechanics, and are more fun to play than anything currently in GW2. And let’s Not forget The Assassin.

The Assassin is not a Thief.
The Dervish is not a handicapped Elementalist.
The Ritualist is not anything like an Engineer.

These three classes should be in the game. That Anet doesn’t want to givethem to us, is just a sign that they rather keep putting out Living Story. I am pretty certain that even though they claim that the new season has " Permanent Content" there is no new class, or race, or weapon in the thing, maybe new skills? can I Hope?

If Anet does only 1 thing…. I would come back to play Like I used to, and I am sure many of those that have left, if they heard it, they would come flocking back, In droves….

Sub-classes.

What second thing could they do? Bring back Dervishes, and Ritualists and Assassins.

But…. that would be hard. And it seems that the only hard thing Anet considers doing is putting out skins On the gem store.

Mesmer is not Mesmer..

gw1 mesmer more&less http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Effective_mesmer_guide
gw2 Mesmer, example in GvG Veil bot.. (except veil there is no seat for mesmer)

by randomly i saw thsis link.. mostly agree on them about mesmer.. http://www.toptiertactics.com/14669/guild-wars-2-how-arenanet-ruined-the-mesmer/
————————————
however we can say Guild wars `2` is not Guidwars1 (just new game.. who use guildwars tag) [anet would use another name than guildwars it would better i think]

Yeah, Im currently playing the mesmer as my main. But after reading this, I can’t really stop the tears from coming. I want my lyssa loving back!

So if they even think about taking back dervish, I really really hope that they don’t change them all that much.

Sidenote;
Weapons for a possible dervish in gw2 should be.
1. Scythe (daa), A little bit of everything.
2. Spears; Single target, conditions.
3. Greatswords; Cc/tanky.
4. Stavs; Support:ish. Ench…etc.

These are interesting weapon choices, would the spear be 1 handed or two handed in your mind?

Scepter could be a 1 handed option, but maybe Dervish could be the only profession that only uses 2 handed weapons.

Ve Salu Sigtyr.4807:

I honestly can’t draw any conclusion at all between Necros of GW2 and Dervishes. I think its just grabbing at straws because Necros would look cool with a scythe. No doub,t weapons don’t have to be exclusive, no weapons are exclusive. That being said, dervishes would be really hard to implement given that the “enchantment” in this game is based on boons largely, and that while some classes have “selfish boons” I.E Spectral Walk or Warrior Stances etc, having a class who’s skill pool is made of Special Status’s and Boons etc would break the equilibrium of the game, or what ever the game has that is close to equilibrium.

It may work if said enchantments are treated like boons and can be stripped ripped and corrupted (Porn name inc) like normal boons.
Forms wouldn’t be an issue as we already have a ton of forums no biggy.

I hate the argument about how there is no grenth, no balthazar, no underworld etc.
There is proof all over the game that the Gods are there, they just don’t care or can’t intervene with whats going on in Tyria.
The Underworld is MORE prevalent in GW2 than in Gw1 in the sense that I can’t go 15 feet without finding an Attax or Shade or a “Portal to the Underworld”. It’s like freiken pouring over into the realm of the living.

Anywho back on topic, yeah it would be great to have Dervs/ Sins/ Monks/ Rits back.
Engi is not a Rit, Thief can’t even lick the Sins boots, Guards have nothing on Monks.

Giving dervishes exclusive access to unique boons sounds cool, but doesn’t that kind break the continuity currently established?

Even aegis, which is primarily used by guardian used by some other professions too. Maybe introducing the Dervish would be a good time to introduce a new boon?

I think the Dervish could have its own niche in Guild Wars 2, if ArenaNet took care to separate it from the Guardian. It would be a very distinct class if Avatars were the profession mechanic.

As stated above, having faith in a cause does not necessarily mean you have to be tied to a religion. I would get a kick out of having a Sylvari Dervish that is a zealot for preserving the environment.

Before new classes are added why not balance the ones we have now. Why add more? It will only make it more complicated. Guardians do everything the dervish did. /endthread

Kukchi.6173:

Before new classes are added why not balance the ones we have now. Why add more? It will only make it more complicated. Guardians do everything the dervish did. /endthread

Adding a new profession is mutually exclusive to balancing existing professions unless you choose to make it otherwise.

I’m not sure how ANet is structured internally, but they definitely have a balance team. Introducing a new profession would involve the balance team and utilize some to there time, but it is not the balance team that is doing the entire development effort of a new profession, just the balance part.