Guild Wars 2

A recent informal survey on Reddit nicely summarizes many complaints about the game that have become more and more prevalent in the community since the release of HoT. Although not everybody agrees with all of these gripes, the unfortunate reality is that just about everyone does agree with at least some of them.

Without intending to overstate the case, it’s fair to say that in a certain way all of these come down to a lack of content and a lack of meaningful and achievable rewards to pursue. There is also an undercurrent across these of the disconnect that has long existed between the very hardcore players and average players. (For the record, I’m somewhere in between. In most games, I have been a hardcore player focused on the most difficult content and that is still what’s “in my heart,” but in this game I’ve played more casually primarily because I’m now married with kids).

Often, all of these coalesce around one issue: raids. Raids have been divisive in that one portion of the community avidly supports them, while another views them bitterly as content that betrays the spirit of the game. The hardcore players sees them as new content that is more in the spirit of what they’ve always wanted, while most or many others see them only as something that has taken all of the developers’ time to provide content for a select group while leaving the rest of the playerbase in a months’ long drought.

The fact is that raids accomplished a great deal for the game that was truly needed. They introduced content that genuinely requires intelligent play and sticking to mechanics in a game in which, other than the two large world boss events, no mechanics really mattered and autoattacking was good enough to clear anything. They took the control and support roles, which had never actually had any value for the life of the game, and made them useful, rewarding, and heck, worth running. They introduced a reason to actually make use of some of the enormous variety of stat sets that have long been in the game but for just as long had no purpose beyond leveling crafting. They did a lot more, too.

In short, raids made the game so much more complete than it ever was – but only for a small group of players. For the rest, it’s unchanged.

So while it’s clear that raids have been an enormous success, there has been one enormous failure in the midst of that: the failure to provide different difficulty tiers. Every MMO I have ever played has difficulty tiers for their raid content. Typically, there is a normal mode, an easy mode, and a difficult mode. For example, SWtOR typically releases it’s Operations (what they call raids) first in a normal mode, and then later in story mode (an easy run through with only basic mechanics which lets more casual players experience the story and play the content) and a nightmare mode (a much more difficult mode with more demanding mechanics and more punishing foes which experienced guilds still take some time to clear).

There is absolutely no reason that GW2 should not have this in their raids. In games which have tiered difficulty, the hard/nightmare modes provide an engaging experience and prestigious titles/rewards for the most hardcore players, while the normal and easy modes provide content for others to play through, to earn some rewards in, and to give them the chance not to feel left out.

Tiered difficulty gives something for everybody:
- More content for the entire playerbase
- More rewards for the entire playerbase
- Something to “work towards” for everyone, even if only cosmetic
-Prestige for top tier players
- A sense that all players are getting new content with raid releases
- The opportunity for all players to experience the story/lore
- A reasonable “next step” of difficulty for players to attempt rather than only a giant leap to go from casual to raiding.

What’s more, it even adds reasonable efficiency to developers’ workflow. In many cases, the difference between modes is as simple as removing a particular ability from an enemies table, skipping a phase, or turning off a certain condition application for a given encounter.

All in all, providing tiers of raid difficulty moving forward could add a great deal more contentment to the player base of this game for comparatively very little overhead and social costs. It could literally turn the community’s attitude around overnight.

Reddit mirror: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4rioou/different_raid_difficulties_would_alleviate_a/

I disagree. Tiers are the problem to begin with. Players need to adapt to the game rather than constantly having the game adapt to them.

Anyway, you laid out the counter argument for your proposal in what you wrote:

The fact is that raids accomplished a great deal for the game that was truly needed. They introduced content that genuinely requires intelligent play and sticking to mechanics in a game in which, other than the two large world boss events, no mechanics really mattered and autoattacking was good enough to clear anything. They took the control and support roles, which had never actually had any value for the life of the game, and made them useful, rewarding, and heck, worth running. They introduced a reason to actually make use of some of the enormous variety of stat sets that have long been in the game but for just as long had no purpose beyond leveling crafting. They did a lot more, too.

You see, raid did all those great things exactly because they’re hard and there’s no easy mode. If it’s easy, why bother doing anything other than autoattacking? If it’s easy, why bother using cc or healer? If it’s easy, why bother thinking about stat sets like condi armor or healing armor?

LegACy.1296:

Anyway, you laid out the counter argument for your proposal in what you wrote:

The fact is that raids accomplished a great deal for the game that was truly needed. They introduced content that genuinely requires intelligent play and sticking to mechanics in a game in which, other than the two large world boss events, no mechanics really mattered and autoattacking was good enough to clear anything. They took the control and support roles, which had never actually had any value for the life of the game, and made them useful, rewarding, and heck, worth running. They introduced a reason to actually make use of some of the enormous variety of stat sets that have long been in the game but for just as long had no purpose beyond leveling crafting. They did a lot more, too.

You see, raid did all those great things exactly because they’re hard and there’s no easy mode. If it’s easy, why bother doing anything other than autoattacking? If it’s easy, why bother using cc or healer? If it’s easy, why bother thinking about stat sets like condi armor or healing armor?

It shouldn’t be that easy. I’m thinking something along the lines of Tequatl difficulty, but for 8 rather than 80. Autoattacking would be too little, and players would have to follow some basic mechanics.

Skolops.2604:

LegACy.1296:

Anyway, you laid out the counter argument for your proposal in what you wrote:

The fact is that raids accomplished a great deal for the game that was truly needed. They introduced content that genuinely requires intelligent play and sticking to mechanics in a game in which, other than the two large world boss events, no mechanics really mattered and autoattacking was good enough to clear anything. They took the control and support roles, which had never actually had any value for the life of the game, and made them useful, rewarding, and heck, worth running. They introduced a reason to actually make use of some of the enormous variety of stat sets that have long been in the game but for just as long had no purpose beyond leveling crafting. They did a lot more, too.

You see, raid did all those great things exactly because they’re hard and there’s no easy mode. If it’s easy, why bother doing anything other than autoattacking? If it’s easy, why bother using cc or healer? If it’s easy, why bother thinking about stat sets like condi armor or healing armor?

It shouldn’t be that easy. I’m thinking something along the lines of Tequatl difficulty, but for 8 rather than 80. Autoattacking would be too little, and players would have to follow some basic mechanics.

So a slightly hyped dungeon?

DGraves.3720:

Skolops.2604:

LegACy.1296:

Anyway, you laid out the counter argument for your proposal in what you wrote:

The fact is that raids accomplished a great deal for the game that was truly needed. They introduced content that genuinely requires intelligent play and sticking to mechanics in a game in which, other than the two large world boss events, no mechanics really mattered and autoattacking was good enough to clear anything. They took the control and support roles, which had never actually had any value for the life of the game, and made them useful, rewarding, and heck, worth running. They introduced a reason to actually make use of some of the enormous variety of stat sets that have long been in the game but for just as long had no purpose beyond leveling crafting. They did a lot more, too.

You see, raid did all those great things exactly because they’re hard and there’s no easy mode. If it’s easy, why bother doing anything other than autoattacking? If it’s easy, why bother using cc or healer? If it’s easy, why bother thinking about stat sets like condi armor or healing armor?

It shouldn’t be that easy. I’m thinking something along the lines of Tequatl difficulty, but for 8 rather than 80. Autoattacking would be too little, and players would have to follow some basic mechanics.

So a slightly hyped dungeon?

Something more engaging than dungeons (autoattacking should not be good enough) but approachable by the average player.

The biggest keys that I’m really thinking about are twofold:

1) It means everyone gets to experience the content. There are a lot of people who are upset that they don’t get to experience the content/story of the raids. They are under no delusions that they are of the same skill as players who are actually playing the raids as currently constituted, but they feel like this is a part of the game that is totally shut off from them. No other part of the game does this. Even the worst players can still participate in a low level experience of dungeons, fractals, PvP, WvW, and open world content, but they can’t set foot inside a raid.

2) The kinds of resources needed to tone a difficult raid down to be more approachable by the average player is very, very minimal compared to producing new dungeons or fractals. 99% of the thing would be done with the standard mode. Easy modes in most cases mainly involve different ability tables, having a phase turned off, and things like that. If they made even only one “easy” mode for each raid, we’d actually SEE this stuff being pushed out with a similar frequency to what we have seen from raids.

Speaking as someone who hasn’t completed a single wing of the raids: no, please. The entire value of raids to me is that they are challenging. Changing them to be like dungeons defeats that value.

ANet made a questionable decision to get the only set of legendary armor in the game behind this mode. They also made a curious decision to offer a small bit of lore, without offering non-raiders a chance (independent of other players) to explore the instances. However, there are ways to fix both without affecting the difficulty of raids.

Similarly, ANet has made, over the last 2 years, a series of choices that have meant there’s been hardly anything new to do in the game, outside of HoT (which arguably had little, according to some) and a small set of boss-events added sporadically. That, too, is something that can be addressed without touching raids.

tl;dr the issue isn’t necessarily raids — it’s a series of things that can’t be resolved easily or quickly and won’t be addressed at all by changing raids.

Agree with the OP on this. Raids are content. Tiers are not a problem; they are a mechanism to allow more people to experience content. This is actually the acknowledged purpose of tiers in other games I play and I don’t see a problem with this. And, rather than arguing about how to do this just benchmark how it’s been done successfully. The answer is out there.

Skolops.2604:

DGraves.3720:

Skolops.2604:

LegACy.1296:

Anyway, you laid out the counter argument for your proposal in what you wrote:

The fact is that raids accomplished a great deal for the game that was truly needed. They introduced content that genuinely requires intelligent play and sticking to mechanics in a game in which, other than the two large world boss events, no mechanics really mattered and autoattacking was good enough to clear anything. They took the control and support roles, which had never actually had any value for the life of the game, and made them useful, rewarding, and heck, worth running. They introduced a reason to actually make use of some of the enormous variety of stat sets that have long been in the game but for just as long had no purpose beyond leveling crafting. They did a lot more, too.

You see, raid did all those great things exactly because they’re hard and there’s no easy mode. If it’s easy, why bother doing anything other than autoattacking? If it’s easy, why bother using cc or healer? If it’s easy, why bother thinking about stat sets like condi armor or healing armor?

It shouldn’t be that easy. I’m thinking something along the lines of Tequatl difficulty, but for 8 rather than 80. Autoattacking would be too little, and players would have to follow some basic mechanics.

So a slightly hyped dungeon?

Something more engaging than dungeons (autoattacking should not be good enough) but approachable by the average player.

The biggest keys that I’m really thinking about are twofold:

1) It means everyone gets to experience the content. There are a lot of people who are upset that they don’t get to experience the content/story of the raids. They are under no delusions that they are of the same skill as players who are actually playing the raids as currently constituted, but they feel like this is a part of the game that is totally shut off from them. No other part of the game does this. Even the worst players can still participate in a low level experience of dungeons, fractals, PvP, WvW, and open world content, but they can’t set foot inside a raid.

2) The kinds of resources needed to tone a difficult raid down to be more approachable by the average player is very, very minimal compared to producing new dungeons or fractals. 99% of the thing would be done with the standard mode. Easy modes in most cases mainly involve different ability tables, having a phase turned off, and things like that. If they made even only one “easy” mode for each raid, we’d actually SEE this stuff being pushed out with a similar frequency to what we have seen from raids.

This is what they said about fractals. But the players rose to the challenge. This is what they said about Triple Trouble and Teq and conditions and now the game is for babies. You do this stuff regularly.

At least wait a year before watering things down.

Raine.1394:

Agree with the OP on this. Raids are content. Tiers are not a problem; they are a mechanism to allow more people to experience content. This is actually the acknowledged purpose of tiers in other games I play and I don’t see a problem with this. And, rather than arguing about how to do this just benchmark how it’s been done successfully. The answer is out there.

What works for one game doesn’t necessarily work for another. And I’d rather wait awhile before even considering changing raid difficulty either by nerds or by tiers. Who knows how easy raids will be in several months once everyone has learned the mechanics extremely well.

The answers here so far (and really, in every other thread about this “issue”) only ever mention that “raids are interesting precisely because they are hard and require a challenge”. The OP did not refute this; In fact, he is even implying they could be even HARDER, as long as there was a mode with toned down mechanics for everyone “casual” to play in.

Note here that, toned down does not mean easy and auto attacking at all. Anet has already done this right, very right in fact, with Fractals of the Mists. To someone who regularly play through lvl 100 mai trin and cliffside and whatnot for their tier 4 rewards, it may sound like easy mode auto attacking to play lvl 25, but to the player at that level, it is indeed a challenge, and that player definitely does not feel like he is just tapping 1 on his keyboard. And this is precisely what the OP requests to increase raid population – this is good for everyone: no matter how much LI you may have, you want more people to play with as your static group gets less and less playtime together due to many reasons.

So, what we have here is not anymore of those threads asking for raids to be nerfed. Quite on the contrary, as I see it the OP is asking whether or not it is better to introduce progressive rather than static difficulty. And as someone who is getting into raids already, I welcome this idea greatly, because there would be something to look forward to even after I get used to a particular wing, because “nightmare” mode would supposedly always be a nightmare; and for every other day I didn’t feel like going through that hassle, I could still raid in a lower tier and help people through (like many of us already do with Fractals, including me).

The biggest problem is that players coming from different games are trying to play gw2 like those other games. They want gw2 to be like them other games. GW2 and GW was successful not only cuz of the pay once to play but also cuz it was different then them other games.
I think tiers would be a good idea. There are some that like things hard and difficult and like to die and die and die and die and they think that kind of grind is fun. For the rest of gw2 they’d rather just get it done and over with and move on. Even gw had a normal mode and hard mode.

I disagree. Tiers are the problem to begin with. Players need to adapt to the game rather than constantly having the game adapt to them.

Players have paid for this game. It is the paying players that are keeping anet afloat. Anet should cater to the players and not the players catering to anet. If you are a robot you’re okay with adapting to anet. When you pay for a product you expect certain things with that product. Why would anybody pay for anything only to be told they had to do what the manufacturer wanted and can’t say anything against it. It wouldn’t be successful.

I rather wait and see until they finish their current plan and finish LW3 and then we can see how much effort they actually put in each part of the game and how much shift is needed.

LegACy.1296:

Anyway, you laid out the counter argument for your proposal in what you wrote:

The fact is that raids accomplished a great deal for the game that was truly needed. They introduced content that genuinely requires intelligent play and sticking to mechanics in a game in which, other than the two large world boss events, no mechanics really mattered and autoattacking was good enough to clear anything. They took the control and support roles, which had never actually had any value for the life of the game, and made them useful, rewarding, and heck, worth running. They introduced a reason to actually make use of some of the enormous variety of stat sets that have long been in the game but for just as long had no purpose beyond leveling crafting. They did a lot more, too.

You see, raid did all those great things exactly because they’re hard and there’s no easy mode. If it’s easy, why bother doing anything other than autoattacking? If it’s easy, why bother using cc or healer? If it’s easy, why bother thinking about stat sets like condi armor or healing armor?

This reminds me of my time when I learned to swim:
Go in the water with inflatable wings. Some rows, you´re tired, pause. Rinse, repeat.
Go in the water with a foam board, Some rows, you´re tired, pause. Rinse, repeat.
Go in the water, make some rows, grab the edge of the pool, you´re tired, pause. Rinse repeat.

I can swim today, and I learned it just once. I just don´t want to learn to swim over and over again in GW2.

You see, raid did all those great things exactly because they’re hard and there’s no easy mode.

The bolded part is just wrong. Easy modes are options, hard modes are options. If the hard mode requires high skill play, then it loses nothing by also having an easy mode that doesn’t. Players that value high skill play can play the hard mode, players that don’t care about that, have no interest in “git gud,” and just want to have fun, can play easy mode, everyone is happy.

It is the availability of a hard mode that is important, NOT the lack of alternatives.

Speaking as someone who hasn’t completed a single wing of the raids: no, please. The entire value of raids to me is that they are challenging. Changing them to be like dungeons defeats that value.

Then do the still challenging hard mode version.

This is what they said about fractals. But the players rose to the challenge. This is what they said about Triple Trouble and Teq and conditions and now the game is for babies. You do this stuff regularly.

They also nerfed all that content considerably from its most challenging state, while buffing the players. It had little to do with “players rising to the challenge.”

Who knows how easy raids will be in several months once everyone has learned the mechanics extremely well.

They might become easier for people who have done them hundreds of times, but chances are that they won’t become easier for new players, since I doubt any major new tactics will be developed, nor do I expect any significant powercreep. People talk about how dungeons used to be really hard and then got easier, but they forget that this is because a- the devs did nerf those dungeons, b- they buffed the character classes, c- they added a whole new tier of gear stats, and d- when they were “hard,” nobody knew anything about how to play the game, how their own characters worked, how GW2 core battle tactics worked (like stacking in corners). With “d,” we already know that stuff about as well as we ever will, so while the next set of Elite specs might cause some temporary fumbling, I doubt there will be any major tactical revelations.

I rather wait and see until they finish their current plan and finish LW3 and then we can see how much effort they actually put in each part of the game and how much shift is needed.

No reason for that. LW3 will happen, and be whatever it is, and hopefully it’ll be great, but it won’t likely have anything to do with this topic either way (unless it already includes easy mode raids and paths to Envoy armor).

If they made an easy mode, no enrage timers, but also you got no shards and no legendary insights, and did not unlock the raid masteries, and earned no achievements or titles, I would not be opposed to it. If it was just standard dungeon loot, that would be acceptable.

I do not, however, like the idea that I do spend a lot of hours trying to get better to earn the loot only to have someone else come in and get it for significantly less effort (not to mention time and money).

Of COURSE nobody is suggesting that the easy modes have the same or even similar rewards. In other games, the easy mode often provides NO raid rewards but only trash loot, the normal mode provides some raid rewards, and the hard mode provides special rewards that are ONLY available in the hard mode.

What I’d like to see is a game community in which everyone recognized that everything does not have to be aimed at everyone.

If they made an easy mode, no enrage timers, but also you got no shards and no legendary insights, and did not unlock the raid masteries, and earned no achievements or titles, I would not be opposed to it. If it was just standard dungeon loot, that would be acceptable.

I would accept that as a step in the right direction, but I would still press for some sort of access to Envoy armor, because I do not think that “hard raid or nothing” is a fair response to the players who would like Envoy armor but have no interest in “challenging group content.”

I do not, however, like the idea that I do spend a lot of hours trying to get better to earn the loot only to have someone else come in and get it for significantly less effort (not to mention time and money).

Then the problem is that you should not have to “spend a lot of hours trying to get better to earn the loot” if that’s something you don’t enjoy. It is wrong of ANet that they put you in that position, but it would be even more wrong if they did not correct it. I’m on track to get The Ascension early next season. All I need to do is cross one more division and I’ll have it. At the same time, I’m still in favor of them opening it up to other methods of earning it, and I wouldn’t be shocked if those methods ended up being “easier” in some way. I absolutely hate PvP, and the entire league process was agonizing, I wouldn’t wish it on anyone, and it’s because I wouldn’t wish it on anyone that I want other options available for people who feel the same way. Can’t you empathize with other players too?

What I’d like to see is a game community in which everyone recognized that everything does not have to be aimed at everyone.

Yaaaaaaaaaas. +1

Skolops.2604:

Of COURSE nobody is suggesting that the easy modes have the same or even similar rewards. In other games, the easy mode often provides NO raid rewards but only trash loot, the normal mode provides some raid rewards, and the hard mode provides special rewards that are ONLY available in the hard mode.

If only you were right.. There is someone in this very thread that want legendary armor in easy mode, and will never be satisfied otherwise.
Of course easy mode should not have the same Reward as normal raids (both in qualities and quantities…)

Problem is that current rate of LI is balanced for legendary armor. If there ever was an easymode then there would be lots of upset players when they realize that for full armor set they needed hundreds and hundreds of easymode runs. If they would lower the requirement of LI and balance it for easymode then most raiders would stop raiding and just farm these easymodes.

Before anyone throws arguments like “raiders only raid for the challenge – not loot” I can assure you are wrong. Raiders DO enjoy the raids but there is the loot aspect that eases pain while wiping and spending gold for gear and consumables. Having a healthy raiding scene in a game is a big bonus in MMO comparisons new potential players read.

Another problem with easymode would be that current mechanics you either manage or wipe. If you lower this so that you wouldn’t wipe for a failed mechanic you will essentially have new 1111111 – get loot.

Problem is that current rate of LI is balanced for legendary armor. If there ever was an easymode then there would be lots of upset players when they realize that for full armor set they needed hundreds and hundreds of easymode runs. If they would lower the requirement of LI and balance it for easymode then most raiders would stop raiding and just farm these easymodes.

You say this, and yet I see several threads devoted to lowering the amount needed from the current raids. If they did this, and then required the current amount of easy mode players (keeping in mind that current raiders would have a huge head start too), then wouldn’t that be fair?

As I’ve said, the balance between hard and easy should involve both time and effort, but both within reason, so if the amount of resources would cause more than, say, six months difference on a weekly lockout, then the lockout on the easy mode raid should be reduced to half a week, or daily, so that easy mode players would be able to earn the rewards within a reasonable time frame, but have to run the content several times as often to do so.

Before anyone throws arguments like “raiders only raid for the challenge – not loot” I can assure you are wrong.

I wouldn’t say that, because numerous raiders have said that they don’t, but I will say that it SHOULD be true, and that if raiders are not running it for the challenge then there shouldn’t be that challenge in the first place. If raiders are just running it for the loot, then remove the challenge level and make that loot available to more players.

Having a healthy raiding scene in a game is a big bonus in MMO comparisons new potential players read.

No. Having a healthy raiding scene is entirely irrelevant.

Another problem with easymode would be that current mechanics you either manage or wipe. If you lower this so that you wouldn’t wipe for a failed mechanic you will essentially have new 1111111 – get loot.

And?

Ohoni.6057:

What I’d like to see is a game community in which everyone recognized that everything does not have to be aimed at everyone.

Yaaaaaaaaaas. +1

Is this Yaaaaaaas ironic? Or sarcastic? Or a troll?
It has to be, right? Because recognizing, that everthing does not have to be aimed at everyone, is very contradicting with everything Ohoni has written here.

Btw I absolutly agree with IndigoSundown.

Is this Yaaaaaaas ironic? Or sarcastic? Or a troll?
It has to be, right? Because recognizing, that everthing does not have to be aimed at everyone, is very contradicting with everything Ohoni has written here.

Oh, perhaps I misunderstood what he intended to mean. I thought what he meant was that hard mode raids could be aimed at hardcore players, but easy mode raids could be aimed at casual players, and that’s ok, the hardcore players should not get upset that there exists an easy mode that they never have to play if they don’t want to. Everything does not have to be aimed at everyone.

If he meant something different then I may not agree with him.

This seems to a complaint against the content drought, not raids.

Why do you need an easy mode? Isn’t more dungeons, fractals, and living world superior? It would provide much more variety if you decided to become interested in raids.

And there’s already a variety of difficulty levels within the raids. Like escort and trio. This is how it should be.

Absurdo.8309:

This seems to a complaint against the content drought, not raids.

Yeah that’s what I thought as well, hence my comment.

I’m sure easier raids or downscaled even, could alleviate that problem, but for now we will need to see if LW3 not already addresses most of the complaints.

This seems to a complaint against the content drought, not raids.

It can be both.

Why do you need an easy mode? Isn’t more dungeons, fractals, and living world superior?

Those things are all different. They provide an experience, but not the same experience. We can have dungeons, fractals, and living world, and appreciate those, and still want to run Forsaken Thicket without the “wipe until you make it” elements.

It would provide much more variety if you decided to become interested in raids.

you don’t “decide” to become interested in raids, you either are or you aren’t. I can absolutely guarantee you that there will never be a time in which I will want to play raids in their current form.

And there’s already a variety of difficulty levels within the raids. Like escort and trio. This is how it should be.

Although many of those are gated behind other portions of the raid, so you can’t experience those portions without first clearing the previous portion that week, or joining with someone who has. I don’t think anyone is complaining about the variety within raids, we’d just like a way of accessing that variety that has fewer of the issues inherent to “challenging content” raiding.

Ohoni.6057:

Why do you need an easy mode? Isn’t more dungeons, fractals, and living world superior?

Those things are all different. They provide an experience, but not the same experience. We can have dungeons, fractals, and living world, and appreciate those, and still want to run Forsaken Thicket without the “wipe until you make it” elements.
[/quote]
Surely you wouldn’t want the same experience? Otherwise you wouldn’t be advocating that you want an easier raid. An hypothetical easier Raid isn’t the same as the current raid. They are entirely different experiences. Which also seems to be what you want.

Ohoni.6057:

This seems to a complaint against the content drought, not raids.

It can be both.

Why do you need an easy mode? Isn’t more dungeons, fractals, and living world superior?

Those things are all different. They provide an experience, but not the same experience. We can have dungeons, fractals, and living world, and appreciate those, and still want to run Forsaken Thicket without the “wipe until you make it” elements.

It would provide much more variety if you decided to become interested in raids.

you don’t “decide” to become interested in raids, you either are or you aren’t. I can absolutely guarantee you that there will never be a time in which I will want to play raids in their current form.

And there’s already a variety of difficulty levels within the raids. Like escort and trio. This is how it should be.

Although many of those are gated behind other portions of the raid, so you can’t experience those portions without first clearing the previous portion that week, or joining with someone who has. I don’t think anyone is complaining about the variety within raids, we’d just like a way of accessing that variety that has fewer of the issues inherent to “challenging content” raiding.

I already know that one of your first principles is: “All content must be complete-able at an easy/medium difficultly level.”

I don’t think many people share this view, and it certainly isn’t applicable to guild wars 2, ever.

The OP’s concern seems to be the content drought. Which is a valid concern. But it is unfair to assign the blame for this on raids.

If all the raid wings were released at the launch of HOT, would you still be upset?

I know you would answer “yes.” But I think most would answer no. Easy and medium content still rules this game. The problem is that there hasn’t been any new content, other than raids, in a while.

One of the points OP presented is that other games feature multiple difficulty levels and it would be good for GW2 to do so. Even though this might be unbelieveable to some, raids in their current state are about equivalent to most game’s easy mode. There’s a huge room for error and you can complete a whole raid wing (= 3 bosses) in just under 30 minutes after you get some practice. If there was another difficulty to introduce, it would have to be way harder with much less forgiving timer, which I don’t think those “99% of people” are asking for. Be glad we have super easy raids and enjoy them.
Don’t even mention the difficulty tuning of central tyria open world maps. That’s beyond easy, it’s impossible to fail at any level and provides extremely relaxing and casual environment so that you only have to pay like 5% attention and enjoy doing something entirely different. Raids on the other hand are meant to provide a challenge. The way raids are designed, they have the easiest possible difficulty that still allows you to fail if you do something wrong. If you were to make them even easier (like central tyria), the only thing left is to make them impossible to lose to, not require any attention or effort and completely fool-proof.

What’s happened to gaming? Is this how population wants games to be designed now? Award you for nothing? Reach the end before you even begin?

Surely you wouldn’t want the same experience? Otherwise you wouldn’t be advocating that you want an easier raid. An hypothetical easier Raid isn’t the same as the current raid. They are entirely different experiences. Which also seems to be what you want.

Well I think that the answer to your question should be obvious, but I’ll provide it anyway. Obviously an easy mode would be different than the current raid in some ways, but those differences are ones that people are seeking, differences in the penalty level of making mistakes. If they are asking for alternatives, then it’s relatively safe to assume both that they are not satisfied by the totality of the current version, and are also interested in aspects of the current version.

The differences between say, Forsaken Thicket and Citadel of Flame, on the other hand, are FAR more significant, involving setting, story, and the basic themes of the encounters. So when people say “well why don’t you just do Fractals or Dungeons instead?” I can’t imagine that they are genuinely interested in providing the other person with a satisfying alternative. Rather, it seems apparent that this is merely an attempt to get that person to stop requesting what they actually want.

I already know that one of your first principles is: “All content must be complete-able at an easy/medium difficultly level.”

OR completely ignorable. If the content does not contain any armor or weapon skins, does not contain any story elements, basically does not exist except to provide a high challenge experience, then it’s acceptable to exist only in a high challenge mode. But broadly speaking, yes, so long as there are valid reasons for people to want to engage the content outside of wanting to engage high challenge levels, then it should be available at a challenge level equivalent to other elements of the game.

I don’t think many people share this view, and it certainly isn’t applicable to guild wars 2, ever.

It largely has been. Most content in the game prior to HoT met that “baseline” standard. High level Fractals did not, but the content of those levels was contained in more accessible, lower level versions. At one point Tequatl and Triple Trouble did not meet that standard, but power creep and direct nerfs resolved that, so now anyone can get the rewards from those if they care to bother. I can’t really think of anything of significance that was actually barred in the way that raid content is.

The OP’s concern seems to be the content drought. Which is a valid concern. But it is unfair to assign the blame for this on raids.

I think the OP’s case is his to make, not yours, and while you may be right that he would be less concerned if not for the content drought, there is no evidence for this claim and it could as easily turn out to be false. As for whether the raids are “to blame” for the drought, obviously they are not, although it’s fair to say that if the raid team were not focused on developing raids, they could have provided more non-raid content, which would at least help alleviate that drought.

If all the raid wings were released at the launch of HOT, would you still be upset?

Certainly. Why wouldn’t I be?

I know you would answer “yes.” But I think most would answer no.

And I think you’d be wrong on that.

The problem is that there hasn’t been any new content, other than raids, in a while.

That’s certainly one of the problems, but it is not the only problem.

One of the points OP presented is that other games feature multiple difficulty levels and it would be good for GW2 to do so. Even though this might be unbelieveable to some, raids in their current state are about equivalent to most game’s easy mode. There’s a huge room for error and you can complete a whole raid wing (= 3 bosses) in just under 30 minutes after you get some practice. If there was another difficulty to introduce, it would have to be way harder with much less forgiving timer, which I don’t think those “99% of people” are asking for. Be glad we have super easy raids and enjoy them.

Sorry, GW2 is not other games. What works for those other games would make GW2 look like Wildstar. Just like Wildstar made Wildstar look like Wildstar. You can call the current raids “easy” all you like, but that will never make it true for the bulk of this game’s population.

Oh, perhaps I misunderstood what he intended to mean. I thought what he meant was that hard mode raids could be aimed at hardcore players, but easy mode raids could be aimed at casual players, and that’s ok, the hardcore players should not get upset that there exists an easy mode that they never have to play if they don’t want to. Everything does not have to be aimed at everyone.

If he meant something different then I may not agree with him.

I’m sure we both agree and disagree. Easier content does, can and certainly should exist. Harder content does, can and should exist also. No arguments.

However, I’m sure we’ll disagree over whether rewards need to be aimed at everyone. You seem to believe they should be. However, that belief is centered on the idea that the sole purpose of rewards is player enjoyment. While that is part of their purpose, it is not all there is to it.

From the developer’s perspective, rewards are incentives, not just to play the game, but to play specific aspects of the game. I get that you think that should change. However, universal accessibility to rewards regardless of play choices has not ever been part of this, or any other MMO which I’m aware of.

At the end of the day, there are fundamental issues of human motivation at work with regard to this issue. You can state your opinion as much as you like. However, you’re up against an industry (and a developer) that has taken heed of the other side. Your opinion that it would be better for ANet to pay heed to your view hinges on the idea that it would be better for them. It’s demonstrable from their behavior that they don’t believe that.

From the developer’s perspective, rewards are incentives, not just to play the game, but to play specific aspects of the game.

I’ve covered that.

ANet would get ZERO benefit in any player continuing to play a mode that he knows he does not enjoy. To deliberately offer players incentive to repeatedly do content that this player knows he does not enjoy, they would have to be sadists, and I don’t believe that’s the case at all, I believe that they just made some mistakes because “everyone else was doing it,” and haven’t yet realized their error. It works entirely against their business interests as well.

So no, it is reasonable to set rewards up as long term goals, such that whichever path you take, it’ll be a while before you get there and they’ll have plenty of time to add new things to chase. This keeps people invested in the game, keeps them playing the content, assisting other players in a mutually beneficial way, and keeps them away from the filthy competition because they just won’t have the time.

It’s also reasonable for them to add items to the game designed to entice you to attempt specific content, to increase the odds that every player will give every game mode a decent shot, and minimize the chance that any player will miss out on content he might actually enjoy. But putting these items dozens, if not hundreds of hours deep, this is at best troublingly misguided, because it stands to reason that at least some of the players seeking this item will not enjoy the associated content, so why would anyone want them to be playing it?

Therefore, it only stands to reason that you position these items at a location designed to “catch and release.” Lure players in, make sure they try the content and experience it, and then say “hey, if you enjoyed that, you can keep doing it as much as you like! And if you continue to do it, you’ll be able to earn ‘The Widget’ much faster than doing anything else! But hey, you weren’t having fun? Continuing to do this for the next six to eight weeks would be sheer torture? That’s cool, we get that not all content is for all players, so here are a few other ways you can shoot for that item that might take a bit longer, but hopefully you’ll enjoy one of those more.”

That’s best for player good will, that’s best for the developers consciences, and it’s best for their company’s bottom line. Win-win-win.

Well said Ohoni!

Reward isn’t the game. The game is the game.

Ohoni.6057:

From the developer’s perspective, rewards are incentives, not just to play the game, but to play specific aspects of the game.

I’ve covered that.

ANet would get ZERO benefit in any player continuing to play a mode that he knows he does not enjoy. To deliberately offer players incentive to repeatedly do content that this player knows he does not enjoy, they would have to be sadists, and I don’t believe that’s the case at all, I believe that they just made some mistakes because “everyone else was doing it,” and haven’t yet realized their error. It works entirely against their business interests as well.

So no, it is reasonable to set rewards up as long term goals, such that whichever path you take, it’ll be a while before you get there and they’ll have plenty of time to add new things to chase. This keeps people invested in the game, keeps them playing the content, assisting other players in a mutually beneficial way, and keeps them away from the filthy competition because they just won’t have the time.

It’s also reasonable for them to add items to the game designed to entice you to attempt specific content, to increase the odds that every player will give every game mode a decent shot, and minimize the chance that any player will miss out on content he might actually enjoy. But putting these items dozens, if not hundreds of hours deep, this is at best troublingly misguided, because it stands to reason that at least some of the players seeking this item will not enjoy the associated content, so why would anyone want them to be playing it?

Therefore, it only stands to reason that you position these items at a location designed to “catch and release.” Lure players in, make sure they try the content and experience it, and then say “hey, if you enjoyed that, you can keep doing it as much as you like! And if you continue to do it, you’ll be able to earn ‘The Widget’ much faster than doing anything else! But hey, you weren’t having fun? Continuing to do this for the next six to eight weeks would be sheer torture? That’s cool, we get that not all content is for all players, so here are a few other ways you can shoot for that item that might take a bit longer, but hopefully you’ll enjoy one of those more.”

That’s best for player good will, that’s best for the developers consciences, and it’s best for their company’s bottom line. Win-win-win.

One of the best written posts I can remember seeing on these forums, and the rare time I’m sad I can only hit the +1 button once.

Ohoni.6057:

ANet would get ZERO benefit in any player continuing to play a mode that he knows he does not enjoy. To deliberately offer players incentive to repeatedly do content that this player knows he does not enjoy, they would have to be sadists, and I don’t believe that’s the case at all, I believe that they just made some mistakes because “everyone else was doing it,” and haven’t yet realized their error. It works entirely against their business interests as well.

Everyone is different, with different interests, likes and dislikes. We have a rare instance of a game where the devs are trying to incorporate just about every kind of activity or gameplay imaginable into a single MMO. PvP, PvE, Fashion Hunting, Exploration, Puzzles, Mini-games, etc. Arenanet has approached GW2 with a very broad stroke of a brush. This hasn’t changed.

Having such a variance in content is not working against their interests, as what they are more interested in keeping their entire mismatched playerbase, of which quite a few groups with such vastly different interests likely don’t play the same kinds of games as each other, in GW2. However, GW2 is a Jack-of-all-trades with this method, they aren’t completely mastering any branch, as we see constantly with branches like PvP not being balanced, or the constant cries for new dungeons versus new open-world. So in order to address this, and get players who might not be interested in that particular content to play that content, they add incentives.

It is not sadistic to create an incentive to get a player to play something they very well might not enjoy, it adds icing to the cake for those who like it, and there’s always the possibility that it will create interest in those who originally thought they might dislike it, in fact turn around to like the content. This incentive is weighed against incentives of other content, and has been the driving force behind why we have seen rewards go from fluid to map specific.

Ohoni.6057:

So no, it is reasonable to set rewards up as long term goals, such that whichever path you take, it’ll be a while before you get there and they’ll have plenty of time to add new things to chase. This keeps people invested in the game, keeps them playing the content, assisting other players in a mutually beneficial way, and keeps them away from the filthy competition because they just won’t have the time.

It would also take a monumental overhaul of just about every single reward system in place. The precarious balancing of how some rewards would be rewarded faster in this method of gameplay, versus another would drive up overhead on content deployment. Every single new reward to come out from now on, would have to be gauged against every prior system. And what would come from this is that you would have players enjoying content to reap all the rewards, but players playing content that is the fastest method to acquiring the same rewards. These ‘Content-locusts’ I believe the term is called would grow at an alarming rate, demanding more content and more rewards, realizing they can get the same rewards from some other old method, and rinse and repeat.

…There would be damage beyond repair, I don’t believe the players that genuinely enjoy a kind of content, would like these ‘locusts’ abusing their gameplay, creating a toxic environment through harassment of ‘You aren’t killing Vinewrath fast enough! Everyone report her!’ kind of mentality. What was thought to be a novel concept would create a bad community, blending all the players who have their different interests, likes and dislikes, and forcing some of them together as the incentives are gone.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s also reasonable for them to add items to the game designed to entice you to attempt specific content, to increase the odds that every player will give every game mode a decent shot, and minimize the chance that any player will miss out on content he might actually enjoy.

This isn’t actually a bad idea, which they could incorporate into some sort of Achievements for doing certain activities during the release of this new content, and it is only temporarily. A kind of head-start achievement where you can get a fairly unique skin that would later start seeing rare drops come from monsters a month later or something along those lines as an example.

Ohoni.6057:

Therefore, it only stands to reason that you position these items at a location designed to “catch and release.” Lure players in, make sure they try the content and experience it, and then say “hey, if you enjoyed that, you can keep doing it as much as you like! And if you continue to do it, you’ll be able to earn ‘The Widget’ much faster than doing anything else! But hey, you weren’t having fun? Continuing to do this for the next six to eight weeks would be sheer torture? That’s cool, we get that not all content is for all players, so here are a few other ways you can shoot for that item that might take a bit longer, but hopefully you’ll enjoy one of those more.”

That’s best for player good will, that’s best for the developers consciences, and it’s best for their company’s bottom line. Win-win-win.

…But this achievement incentive could not be the main goal of the content. Something bigger and shinier or whatever would have to be the main goal. What that would do is at the very least, get everyone’s feet a little wet in the content rather than outright dislike it from the get-go without any experience. But as long as there are big shiny rewards involved, there will be a very large and noticeable amount of the population eating up these substantially easier rewards like nothing, and demanding more from the devs who are already trying to balance the new stuff coming in, around what is already here.

There would be an ever-growing new burden on the devs with reward balancing.
There would be a rapid growth in content-locusts that plow through all the reward content, that mainly seek the big shinies. They could even poison old content and reward methods with their presence.
There would be even more toxicity, rewards as incentives do in a way separate players into groups automatically, but when everything has the same rewards, the playerbase blends and some players don’t mix well (Imagine if for a time SPvP reward tracks were the fastest method, even by a single day, for a particular reward).

I guarantee you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that setting up some sort of good-will reward system would be a catastrophic nightmare. It’s nice to paint it in such a flowery fashion until you get down to what the actual potential consequences could be.

For the real good of all, keep rewards as incentives for unique content only.

I’ve covered that.

ANet would get ZERO benefit in any player continuing to play a mode that he knows he does not enjoy. To deliberately offer players incentive to repeatedly do content that this player knows he does not enjoy, they would have to be sadists, and I don’t believe that’s the case at all, I believe that they just made some mistakes because “everyone else was doing it,” and haven’t yet realized their error. It works entirely against their business interests as well.

So no, it is reasonable to set rewards up as long term goals, such that whichever path you take, it’ll be a while before you get there and they’ll have plenty of time to add new things to chase. This keeps people invested in the game, keeps them playing the content, assisting other players in a mutually beneficial way, and keeps them away from the filthy competition because they just won’t have the time.

It’s also reasonable for them to add items to the game designed to entice you to attempt specific content, to increase the odds that every player will give every game mode a decent shot, and minimize the chance that any player will miss out on content he might actually enjoy. But putting these items dozens, if not hundreds of hours deep, this is at best troublingly misguided, because it stands to reason that at least some of the players seeking this item will not enjoy the associated content, so why would anyone want them to be playing it?

Therefore, it only stands to reason that you position these items at a location designed to “catch and release.” Lure players in, make sure they try the content and experience it, and then say “hey, if you enjoyed that, you can keep doing it as much as you like! And if you continue to do it, you’ll be able to earn ‘The Widget’ much faster than doing anything else! But hey, you weren’t having fun? Continuing to do this for the next six to eight weeks would be sheer torture? That’s cool, we get that not all content is for all players, so here are a few other ways you can shoot for that item that might take a bit longer, but hopefully you’ll enjoy one of those more.”

That’s best for player good will, that’s best for the developers consciences, and it’s best for their company’s bottom line. Win-win-win.

So, you think that ANet — and the whole industry — is just misguided and will sooner or later come to their senses? Good luck with that.

Of course, there’s also developer pride in and love for their creations. ANet doesn’t think about your supposed hordes of players who want what you want, they think that what they’ve built is some good stuff, and that people will like it if they would only try it — thus the carrot.

Either they already think they’re doing what’s best for them, and the players, or they’re seriously deluded. So, who is right, you or them? Al least they’ve got metrics. While metrics don’t always tell the tale, what is it that you’ve got?

I for one enjoy the cruel irony in the anti-raid crowds cries to unify and not disenfranchise while completely ignoring that unifying is disenfranchising players.

I recently got to try out my first raid, the issue is that I feel raiding still needs a story mode, a compramise.

My idea was this:

Add a story mode variant to the raid that includes the pact commander (and) the biconics (or what ever name they have) on an investigation of the area, allowing players to try the raid solo and experience the story of it.
This would:
- Allow people to enjoy the story, perhaps even allow A-net to give it more depth.
- Be a good compramise for raiders vs non raiders.

Also, to avoid Raiders being worried over gear and exclusive content, this is my answer:
- In the Story version, clearing each wing grants you one ascended quality accessory/ring/trinket designed to help you catch up with other players, this can only be earned “once” per playthrough on any character.
- Completing the “entire” raid for the first time grants you a weapons box that lets you choose a white mantle weapon, but only “one” per first time completing the story raid “per” account, so that you cant simply switch characters and abuse this.

This:
- Gives non raiders a chance to catch up with raiders.
- Gives them a small snippet of content that does not interfere with the rest of the raid or other exclusive rewards such as Xera’s Backpiece, Matthias Staff etc etc.

As someone who recently got to raid with a fairly nice bunch it was an arite experience as experiences go, but that was a luck of the draw situation which was mostly down to the groups patience for me learning, though their leader did say I was pretty good as was my friend whom both of us were newtime raiders.

This is the thing though, I do think that as time goes on, people will struggle to keep up. For new players especially getting “into” raiding will be hard… thats why I have made this suggestion.

It allows A-net to flesh out the raids, and increase their potential, and it allows “players” to experience the lore in more depth, possibly even adding new details.

I believe this system could work, you could have 2 modes for raids:

Story Mode:
- Soloable, and dooable with groups.
- Serves as a small training course on what to expect in proper raiding.
- Has more lore, less rewards.
- Gives you an accessory/ring/trinket per wing to help catch up per character, plus one white mantle weapon box per account when you complete the story mode, cannot be gained more than once.
- Launches a month after Expedition Mode.

Expedition Mode:
- Always appears before Story mode, considered the start of every raid.
- Expedition mode is the proper hardcore raid, with loot, rewards, challenging bosses.
- Less focus on lore, more on gameplay and gear and rewarding content.
- Retains all of the full rewards, can be unlocked once completing bosses or getting lucky with loot.
- Allows access to challenging achievements and mastery points.

This, I think, is a good medium, it helps nobodies catch up, it helps somebodies remain exclusive, and nobody can argue that it isnt efficent.

It’s still compromise, not compramise.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

This, I think, is a good medium, it helps nobodies catch up, it helps somebodies remain exclusive, and nobody can argue that it isnt efficent.

Efficiency was never the problem.
Besides, you have already done a similar thread before, and it was clearly seen that for people asking for easy mode it’s not enough, while the raiders would have been happy only with full exclusivity, or a “story mode” so reduced it’s meaningless.

As a side note: accessories with HoT stats need to be available outside the raids. The very idea od the highly exclusive content locking out stats is so bad that even most raiders agree something needs to be done with it. And, according to Anet, devs agree with this and are even planning to do something with is (hopefully soon, and in some reasonable way, which still isn’t that clear, based on past experience).

It’s not a compromise if you stand to gain everything.

If you want a story mode be prepared to give up any and all access to raid specific loot, as you are not raiding.

Why should you be guaranteed a ascended weapon and accessory/ring . A raider who runs all 3 wins isn’t even guaranteed either of these drops. Raids arent hard and only require a bit of practice. Get off your high horse, look for a training guild and get your loot the way everybody else did.

I disagree with the suggestion, sounds like wasted development effort. Also the white mantle skins needs to stay exclusive to w2 and w3 endboss drops.

I like compromise. I think “story mode” is a good idea. Anet can demote all the bosses to Veteran dummies with little to no mechanics (mean: no wasted resource for development) so that people can bypass them fast to advance to the next bit of story. It shouldn’t take more than 30 minutes to complete the story of all three wings. Oh, and of course, story mode would not gives any raid rewards although I think it’s fair to have player leave the instance with something like one champion bag and two masterwork bags. The same way raiders get from repeating boss kills.

I’m not sure everyone will be happy.

As others have noted, compromise indicates some give and take. When they incorporate variable difficulty into raiding (and they do need to), they will need to compromise the rewards players receive as well – that just makes sense.

The key is a variable difficulty/variable rewards model akin to gold/silver/bronze from open world, scaling rewards based on fractal levels, prestigious rewards for reaching the pinnacle of PVP content, etc. It is – and always has been – a part of the GW2 experience.

I firmly believe they can retain the prestige of being a higher level raider while still offering a more casual experience for the greater population – and that variable rewards based on the effort exerted/skill displayed are a part of that.

I do disagree that the raid fights – at any difficulty level – should be faceroll piñatas with no mechanics, as part of the experience should be a lower stress environment for those wanting to gradually ease their way into higher level raiding. For that reason – and because I think many would actually find the mechanics (at lower scaling) fun, I prefer the idea of variable difficulties to a pure “story mode.” Part of the experience (and one of the things that make them good content) is the cool boss mechanics the team came up with.

And, of course, the stat combinations should be accessible through other game modes – that also makes sense (and I believe is something they have already said they plan to do).

I really dont think theres much of an argument though, I mean lets be honest, your not actually loosing anything.

- It incentivises new people to raid, it gives them catchup gear to start themselves on that journey which only benefits raiders since it lets more people join raiding.

- The White Mantle Box as I pointed out before is an account “one time only” thing which you would never get a second time, you’d only get it the first time you completed the story mode.

- Story is always and will always be something casual players favor over gameplay, it makes no sense to argue or debate that having exclusive story content is something a raider would even care about as the fundamental value of raiding, is the difficult group bosses, and the awesome loot that comes with it.

TL:DR

Its not a loss for the player after the best loot, theres also nothing wrong with “more” accessability to the content itself that does not in any way compramise the loot table or challenge.

Hell I did point out that by making this story-mode level you can still add boss mechanics, which still lets people that have never raided train and learn the raid itself.

Personally, I cant even see for one second, how thats a bad thing.

In reverse order:
I assure you that most raiders care for the gameplay, not the story, as well as anyone that decides to get into raiding; the story available in raids is minimal and accessible in a clear wing
Giving raid-exclusive skins to people that didn’t work for it, is something I’m against as well
“Catchup gear” is supposed to be exotic, no? I personally had crafted the exotic version of vipers accessories before I managed to get the asc accessory from raid.
All in all, creating a story mode could be a good idea (making newbies accustomed to a less potent version of each boss attack maybe) however I don’t think it’s gonna be worth it.
Raids are meant to be challenging, and you end up spending the majority of your time fighting bosses or planning how to beat them rather than experiencing the story. Taking the challenge out of them means that the extent of the content becomes quite short (it’s only 3 bosses per wing) also it makes the idea of “raid” less meaningful (atm raids are there to be the “very very endgame” that is barred from casual players).

Lastly spending resources on rebalancing and overhauling preexisting content to cater for a not-so-large portion of the playerbase, especially when said content will have no replayability, is something I don’t see anet doing anytime soon.

Nordom.3485:

Lastly spending resources on rebalancing and overhauling preexisting content to cater for a not-so-large portion of the playerbase, especially when said content will have no replayability, is something I don’t see anet doing anytime soon.

Exactly. Which is why instead of having story mode with no replayability, an easy mode with replayability (or multitude of difficulty modes) should be made.