Guild Wars 2

This is a follow-up to my original post on GW2 endgame.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-End-Game-Debate

Intro.

Recently there have been many heated debates (understatement) on the forums over this seemingly new direction and vision that the developers have taken for the current GW2 endgame. One thing that the developers have now made perfectly clear is that the endgame in GW2 is important to them. We (the players) have told them that this is a topic that is important to us, and they have responded with reassurance. this is a good thing

In order to address endgame progression, the developers have (along with other things) given us a new gear tier as a medium-long term goal for those of us on the way to acquiring our Legendaries. What players can’t seem to agree upon is whether or not this new tier-of-gear solution is a good and healthy thing for their beloved game. Many players have a deep emotional and/or monetary investment into Guild Wars 2. Many have, sadly, become hostile towards the developers and/or other players.

Lack of Progression leads to stagnation.

Guild Wars 2 needs progression if it is ever going to survive its infancy. You may love or loathe vertical progression, horizontal progression, diagonal progression, 3D progression, 4D progression, Zig-Zagging progression, etc. But the fact of the matter is, GW2 cannot stay the exact same as it was released out of the box. Games can change and evolve as people change and evolve. I DO believe, however, that GW2 can progress and evolve into a mature gaming world while still holding true to its original ideals.

So what is this new gear tier doing in our Guild Wars game!?!?!

As the developers have stated, this new tier is meant to bridge the gap between exotics and legendaries. Since there were no statistical differences between these two, it is logical to assume that this new tier is designed to bridge the time and effort gap. Maybe the developers thought that exotic gear was in-fact too easy to obtain and that players wanted a middle ground between the exotic and legendaries. Maybe the ascended gear represents a difficulty that was originally intended for exotic gear. Maybe the developers thought the many players would lose interest because of the massive investment that the legendaries require and simply give up. Maybe they just wanted to give an attainable target for the semi-hardcore. I do not know for sure.

But this is a gear treadmill!!! I hate treadmills!!! Go play XYZ game that has a treadmill!!! Leave my game alone!!!

Many players believe that ascended gear now represents a gear treadmill mechanic in GW2. For those who are unfamiliar with the term. A treadmill implies that a player must CONTINUALLY acquire new gear for his character over-time in order to be competitive. Anet developers have said that ascended gear will have better stats than exotics and will be released over time. They have also stated that they do not have plans for players to grind for a new gear tier every 3 months. Ascended gear is a vertical progressive statistical step-up from exotic gear. By this definition, I think of ascended gear more like a flight of stairs to be climbed rather than a treadmill.

So, where do we go from here?

Guild Wars 2 is a true MMORPG, and as such; it needs some form of endgame progression for its players. Anet has chosen to implement a new gear level in order to help fill a void which the game had upon its release. We may not agree with Anet’s particular solution to the problem. However, the best thing any player can do is to voice their opinion in constructive and courteous feedback. Let us please not jump the gun at assume we know what Anet will do in the future to ruin our beloved game. Posting hateful comments, attacking players/devs, QQing, trolling, or otherwise helps no-one and certainly doesn’t help the game. I want GW2 to succeed. I want GW2 to stay true to its roots. I will try to post constructive feedback. I will try to make this a better game… What will YOU do?

1) It’s been explained, at length, dozens of times in this forum already that there was no gap between Exotic and Legendary equipment.

No stat gap. No time gap. No effort gap.

As it stands, Exotic gear fills in the time and effort gaps between Legendary and Ascended gear, not the other way around.

In addition to that, the argument that there was a gap relies entirely on the idea that it was a time/effort gap, since the stat gap was zero. If that is the argument, then Ascended gear could have easily been released as gear that had the same stats as Exotic gear but required a level of time and effort to obtain that fit into the range where they felt there was a time and effort gap.
Instead, they introduced a stat gap, where none existed before – if it was an issue of there being a time and effort gap, then why would a stat gap be necessary?

That entire line of argument is either a deliberate lie, or an unintentional misunderstanding of the way the game works. In either case, there is no merit to it.

2) A gear treadmill is not called a treadmill because you do it continually. It’s because you start at a given point (100% maxed level/equipment), then new content is introduced that reduces you to a lesser point (anything less than 100% of maximum). You need to grind out new gear just to get back to the exact same point you started at (100%).

It is entirely irrelevant whether you have to do that just once, whether you have to do it every three months, or whether you have to do it every year.
Also irrelevant is the degree to which new equipment renders old equipment inferior. It doesn’t matter if your 100% gear is reduced to 50%, to 90%, or to 99%. It is a qualitative argument.

Many, many people have been polite, courteous, articulate, and entirely constructive in giving their feedback and criticism. In return, there has been zero two-way communication on the issue, and the only response we have received at all is the “filling the gap” line, which is obviously, factually, and objectively wrong. And yet, the next time we received any further communication, it was simply to parrot that line again.
Nobody is being unreasonable if they start to get frustrated and a little caustic in light of this completely inappropriate lack of respect and communication on the part of ArenaNet.

This is how progression in this game was advertised and promoted for years till the 15th of November, keep in mind GW2 was in development for years. It targeted a part of the MMORPG players, like ANet did with GW1:

The only explanation I have for the change, that a big part of the players of GW2 is not the targeted one or that they want to catch the players of other games too.

Couple things I wanted to point out.

First, unless there is some place that the exact definition of the simile that the term “treadmill” is meant to describe here then it’s wide open to subjective interpretation. What exactly is meant by the term in relation to MMOs and the process of progressing in them isn’t set in stone anywhere that I’ve run across. I always took it to mean that while I am in fact putting forth effort and achieving something by that effort, in a strictly physical sense of progress or forward movement I’m not in fact “moving” anywhere but, in the strictest technical sense, remaining in the same place. In correlation to gearing up in MMOs, I’m in fact putting forth the effort to progress my character through aqcuiring better gear but in a setting where everything (other players as well as NPCs and general PvE content) are keeping, more or less, exact pace with me. So in the sense of practical application we aren’t progressing relative to our setting. Kind of like we’re all in a bus and the bus is progressing forward but inside the bus no one is progressing beyond anyone or anything else inside the bus. I have a feeling I may be ‘over-explaining’ that but I think everyone gets the point. And as I said that’s my subjective opinion on the definiton of the vernacular MMO specific reference. In general agreement with the above poster, Crater, but with some variation on some details. I guess? Well, whatever, that’s niether here nor there really.

Second, I think it’s the rate at which new gear (as well as new dungeons, events and yes, higher levels even) is introduced that will make it either casual or hardcore friendly. From the way they’ve so far implemented such a small segment of Ascended items I don’t see any cause for alarm at all. Maybe a suspicious, watchful eye but I don’t think we’re quite to the point for open revolt in the streets and the torching of Dwayna in effigy on the door step of A-Net HQ.

Lastly, from the relatively slight increase in stats offered by the new Ascended accessories and Infusion upgrade slots I feel fully confident in saying that, if an opponent with those items were able to easily smash me with only my exotics still in PvP, it wasn’t the gear discrepancy that gave them the ‘W’. They’re better than me and were going to beat me with or without the new rings and Infusions. There may be an extremely small fraction of players whose skills match up so closely to mine that the extra dozen points in PWR or whatever tipped the scale but the likelyhood of us meeting 1 vs. 1 on a WvW map and duking it out uninterrupted is even smaller still that it’s not even worth considering, much less worth using my GW2 DVD for a clay pigeon at the skeet shooting range.

I feel as the OP generally, let’s not jump the gun and take action on an assumption arrived at by A-Net releasing such a small amount and relevance of new gear. In the past, other games have gotten to the point that I didn’t feel I could put in enough time to remain competitive. When I stopped feeling competitive I stopped having fun and, not having fun I stopped playing (and paying). It’s happened many times in the past and I’m pretty sure not just to me (or we’d all still be in DAoC or WoW or – well you get the point). Also, I never took it personally when a game changed (or my circumstance changed) to a point that I stopped having fun. At the end of the day they’re a multi-million dollar, multi-national media company(s) and I’m a gamer. When our goals stopped lining up and serving each other’s purpose we stopped our business relationship. C’est la vie.

P.S I’m also of the opinion (about 99.9% sure of it) that any MMO requires both ‘vertical’ and ‘horizontal’ progression for longevity if nothing else. I feel it’s the balance between these two types of progress (along with the speed at which new content is released) that generally determine and identify a game as more of a ‘hard-core’ or ‘casual’ game.

“No stat gap. No time gap. No effort gap”
– how long did it take you to get your exotics? How long for your legendary? Did they cost any different?

“As it stands, Exotic gear fills in the time and effort gaps between Legendary and Ascended gear, not the other way around.”
– GW2 Wiki contradicts this. Compare the stats. If this were true, we wouldn’t be discussing it cause no one would care.

“if it was an issue of there being a time and effort gap, then why would a stat gap be necessary?”
- necessary? I don’t believe they HAD to add a stat gap. But, this is the game we currently live in. Doesn’t mean I agree with it. Although, adding a new middle tier of gear would seem silly to me if it offered no perks. Why not just add more legendaries then?

“It is entirely irrelevant whether you have to do that just once, whether you have to do it every three months, or whether you have to do it every year.”
- a have to disagree. I have to level from 1 to 80, but don’t consider it a treadmill. Like in real life, if a treadmill stops, you don’t continue walking on it… kinda defeats the purpose.

“Many, many people have been polite, courteous, articulate, and entirely constructive in giving their feedback and criticism.”
- I know, and that’s awsome. I don’t have to agree with them. And, that’s ok.

On a follow-up thought. We might disagree with the description of “treadmill” in this sense. I was just using it to describe the fears of players that they will have to keep chasing after more and more gear in gw2 to have max stats. I just see ascended gear as a one time thing as per the devs’ descriptions (albeit spaced out with its release over time). But that’s my view on the dev posts.

JSmooth.7654:

“No stat gap. No time gap. No effort gap”
– how long did it take you to get your exotics? How long for your legendary? Did they cost any different?

“As it stands, Exotic gear fills in the time and effort gaps between Legendary and Ascended gear, not the other way around.”
– GW2 Wiki contradicts this. Compare the stats. If this were true, we wouldn’t be discussing it cause no one would care.

There are Exotic weapons that will cost you about 2g. There are Exotic weapons that will cost you upwards of 500-600g (and there are Exotic weapons at every price point in between). Legendaries cost about 900-1000g, prior to the recent updates which have shaved 100-150g off the cost of a precursor.

So if you’re going to tell me that it was of vital importance to the game to introduce weapons that occupy the space between the price points of 600g and 750-800g, and that it is so important to fill that space that it couldn’t have been accomplished either by adding cheaper Legendaries or more expensive Exotics… I guess that’s a valid opinion and you’re entitled to it.

Otherwise – or if Ascended weapons cost even a copper less than 500g to get – the “filling a gap” excuse is 100% total BS, and people should be ashamed of themselves for swallowing it.

“It is entirely irrelevant whether you have to do that just once, whether you have to do it every three months, or whether you have to do it every year.”
- a have to disagree. I have to level from 1 to 80, but don’t consider it a treadmill. Like in real life, if a treadmill stops, you don’t continue walking on it… kinda defeats the purpose.

Leveling from 1-80, and collecting your initial batch of cheap exotics, was not a treadmill, because you knew that you were not at 100% of the maximum power level until you got there, and you knew that when you bought the game. It was a grind, and it was “getting ready to have fun instead of having fun”, though.

That was the compromise. I didn’t buy the game because I was hunky-dory with the idea of having to grind all the way to 80 and then collect maximum equipment. Doing that was the concession I made to vertical progressionists, with a very implicit understanding that there was not going to be a treadmill, because it would end. And end in a reasonable amount of time – which, I might add, was pretty borderline to begin with; the amount of time it takes to max out statistically in Guild Wars 2 is already at the very limit of what I’d consider acceptable.

They already imposed the “You only have to do this once” compromise on us. And we agreed. And here we are, three months later, with a new tier of gear to collect. And if they’re going to say “We’re not going to introduce a new tier of gear every three months”, well… I had more reason to believe that when I bought the game than I do now.

“if it was an issue of there being a time and effort gap, then why would a stat gap be necessary?”
- necessary? I don’t believe they HAD to add a stat gap. But, this is the game we currently live in. Doesn’t mean I agree with it. Although, adding a new middle tier of gear would seem silly to me if it offered no perks. Why not just add more legendaries then?

Adding a new tier of gear without perks would be “silly”. Adding a new tier of gear with these perks demands more than a shrug of the shoulders, some logically incoherent line about “filling a gap”, and an expectation that we all accept it as “just the way the game is”.

There are a couple of responses that always seem to get buried in the diatribe, and imo they are important to consider when considering the gear treadmill argument:

From the News section:

“Ascended and infusion rewards will be available in both PvE and WvW over time, and be made available through all sorts of content around the world including existing content. PvP will remain unaffected to ensure our intended PvP balance going forward."

So it sounds like from the developers that you can remain competitive if you choose not to collect Ascended gear. Apparently we will also be able to collect Ascended gear from various means over time. Since they haven’t introduced an entire set quite yet, and as they introduce more you will be able to collect it from multiple sources, how is this a gear grind?

You can also use gems to purchase the mats needed to craft Ascended gear. So if you decide to skip whatever time sink it will be to obtain an entire set by using the TP, and and gems are the currency (again, no one knows about the amount of time to obtain all pieces, or how and where to obtain them yet), is this still considered a grind?

Another important post made by Artorous a few days ago:
———————————————————————————————————————————————————
“8% increase in stats doesn’t mean you’re 8% stronger. Stats to Effectiveness is NOT a 1:1 ratio as has been pointed out numerous times. The overall increase is not going to even be on par to Rare to Exotic upgrades and considering you can do everything in the game, including the new dungeon, with Masterwork quality gear, if not Fine, then there isn’t anything to worry about.

The only thing the new equipment is better for is the new dungeon and that is because it has the Agony Resist. The dungeon itself is infinite, increasing in difficulty every 5 to 10 rooms (I forget which). You can easily complete the first level with no need of Agony resist, possibly higher ones than that if you’re in a good group.
The only people that could possibly have any legitimate grounds for complaints would be the WvW community but since people, such as myself, can compete with Full Exotic geared players using nothing but Masterwork, possibly Fine though I never tried, then there’s no real reason to complain there because GW2 isn’t gear based but skill based. Hell, most people don’t even use food buffs but the ones that do don’t ROFLStomp the people that aren’t and those give roughly the same stats as upgrading Exotic to Ascended.

Now, if the gear tiers were like they are in games like WoW where every new tier allows you to completely stomp people in the ground that are wearing anything but that tier as well, then I could see a point, but adding 1-5% overall damage is not worth going crazy about."

So if the new tier only gives you a few percentage points in overall damage, and you really don’t need to obtain equivalent gear to be competitive….why all the fuss?

So, if there’s no real gear grind and you can still be competitive, what’s the problem?

If you still see a problem, without having a full set, knowing how, where, and how long it will take to get it, how can you even call it a gear grind, or know the overall effect it will have on your ability to remain competitive and a value in groups? I just don’t understand the reasoning.

Lack of Progression leads to stagnation.

Guild Wars 2 needs progression if it is ever going to survive its infancy.

They have also stated that they do not have plans for players to grind for a new gear tier every 3 months. Ascended gear is a vertical progressive statistical step-up from exotic gear. By this definition, I think of ascended gear more like a flight of stairs to be climbed rather than a treadmill.

That is until the number grinders have aquired their ascended gear. Then they are again in the situation that there “there is no progression”.

Then what is Anet going to do?
Leave those people at the top of the stairs, or add yet harder content and more stats upgrades – and so come full circle into the threadmill trap?

At any rate, wrt rpgs the threadmill analogy doesn’t mean it repeatedly goes around to the exact same position where it started. Rather it means it repeatedly puts the player in the position where after obtaining the next level and the next better gear, the player is pitted against tougher mobs, so that a lvl80 char has as hard a time dealing with lvl 80 mobs, as a lvl 10 players has dealing with lvl 10 mobs.

helladoom.4317:

Lack of Progression leads to stagnation.

Guild Wars 2 needs progression if it is ever going to survive its infancy.

They have also stated that they do not have plans for players to grind for a new gear tier every 3 months. Ascended gear is a vertical progressive statistical step-up from exotic gear. By this definition, I think of ascended gear more like a flight of stairs to be climbed rather than a treadmill.

That is until the number grinders have aquired their ascended gear. Then they are again in the situation that there “there is no progression”.

Then what is Anet going to do?
Leave those people at the top of the stairs, or add yet harder content and more stats upgrades – and so come full circle into the threadmill trap?

At any rate, wrt rpgs the threadmill analogy doesn’t mean it repeatedly goes around to the exact same position where it started. Rather it means it repeatedly puts the player in the position where after obtaining the next level and the next better gear, the player is pitted against tougher mobs, so that a lvl80 char has as hard a time dealing with lvl 80 mobs, as a lvl 10 players has dealing with lvl 10 mobs.

So far, not a single mob has been made excessively more difficult… even the Karka, people just failed to realize the acid gun was so effective against their armour.

The incredibly minor increase changes nothing in this game, and doesn’t introduce a treadmill.

tkalamba.2541:

helladoom.4317:

Lack of Progression leads to stagnation.

Guild Wars 2 needs progression if it is ever going to survive its infancy.

They have also stated that they do not have plans for players to grind for a new gear tier every 3 months. Ascended gear is a vertical progressive statistical step-up from exotic gear. By this definition, I think of ascended gear more like a flight of stairs to be climbed rather than a treadmill.

That is until the number grinders have aquired their ascended gear. Then they are again in the situation that there “there is no progression”.

Then what is Anet going to do?
Leave those people at the top of the stairs, or add yet harder content and more stats upgrades – and so come full circle into the threadmill trap?

At any rate, wrt rpgs the threadmill analogy doesn’t mean it repeatedly goes around to the exact same position where it started. Rather it means it repeatedly puts the player in the position where after obtaining the next level and the next better gear, the player is pitted against tougher mobs, so that a lvl80 char has as hard a time dealing with lvl 80 mobs, as a lvl 10 players has dealing with lvl 10 mobs.

So far, not a single mob has been made excessively more difficult.

That was not the point i made, my point is that mobs become harder as the player becomes more powerful. Meaning that in essence it stays the same while the player proverbially walks in circles.
At no point did i mention “excessively”.

helladoom.4317:

tkalamba.2541:

helladoom.4317:

Lack of Progression leads to stagnation.

Guild Wars 2 needs progression if it is ever going to survive its infancy.

They have also stated that they do not have plans for players to grind for a new gear tier every 3 months. Ascended gear is a vertical progressive statistical step-up from exotic gear. By this definition, I think of ascended gear more like a flight of stairs to be climbed rather than a treadmill.

That is until the number grinders have aquired their ascended gear. Then they are again in the situation that there “there is no progression”.

Then what is Anet going to do?
Leave those people at the top of the stairs, or add yet harder content and more stats upgrades – and so come full circle into the threadmill trap?

At any rate, wrt rpgs the threadmill analogy doesn’t mean it repeatedly goes around to the exact same position where it started. Rather it means it repeatedly puts the player in the position where after obtaining the next level and the next better gear, the player is pitted against tougher mobs, so that a lvl80 char has as hard a time dealing with lvl 80 mobs, as a lvl 10 players has dealing with lvl 10 mobs.

So far, not a single mob has been made excessively more difficult.

That was not the point i made, my point is that mobs become harder as the player becomes more powerful. Meaning that in essence it stays the same while the player proverbially walks in circles.
At no point did i mention “excessively”.

I understand, but just wanted to point out that currently, we do not have a treadmill, because we the mobs aren’t being made more powerful in relation to released gear. The increase is so minor, that there would be no point to make mobs 1% tougher.

Dozer.1596:

The only explanation I have for the change, that a big part of the players of GW2 is not the targeted one or that they want to catch the players of other games too.

Ofcourse they want to catch players of other games, why wouldnt they?

This game requires alot of dev time for new content, and server upkeep. This costs alot of money, money they are not making from subs. In order for this game to remain profitable, they must attract all sorts of players. They cannot just cater to one type of player, they will simply not be able to upkeep this game the way people expect it to. They aren’t making this game for free, and they will do everything in their power to attract new players.

As far as I am concerned, all you just said was “I need something shiny to reach for all the time. Without a vertical grind there is nothing to do.”

It was like this:
Legendary was the same as Exotic
Legendary just looked different – PERIOD

Now
Legendary is NOT the same as Exotic
Legendary is better than Exotic
Legendary is the same as Ascended

Now, how was Legendary supposed to be difficult to get and still not a grind? Because it was purely aesthetic and purely optional. You did not NEED to have Legendary armor. It did not increase any stats at all. It was something you acquired while just playing the game they way you wanted to play the game.

Now with the addition of a new and stronger class of armor, Legendary has become the template armor you HAVE to get if you don’t want to be forced into a constant gear treadmill when stats are raised to please the “Grinding is life” crowd. Ascended can only be obtained through “grinding” through a specific, single part of the game. Sure they will add other ways to get it, but when? How long will that take? Weeks? Months?

I have my exotics and was in no rush to get legendary items. NOW I have to actually work towards that specific goal on purpose because Legendary items will no longer be what I already have, they are better and will always be the best. A grind has been forced on me, just to remain competitive, until I get a full set of Legendary gear.

Legendary armor was not a grind because it was only aesthetic and therefore optional.
Legendary armor is now a grind because of the precedent set forth with Ascended armor.

For those who are brainwashed by the gear grind from other MMOs, you will never see a problem with this and there is nothing we can say to make you understand it. For those of us to are not of your ilk, we are seriously disheartened by this change.

That’s a lot of MAYBE’s about the reasoning behind ascended gear. As many others have already posted, the gap between exotic and legendary were purely aesthetics prior to the patch. Now, it is aesthetics + stat advantage. You can’t just “opt out” of the legendary/ascended grind lest you be left out of future content or find yourself getting beaten handily in WvW. Skill > gear only works when gear is widely available, which ascended is currently not and has no timeline on future ascended gear releases or lowering of absurd grinding requirements for non-dungeon grinders.

moirweyn.9872:

As far as I am concerned, all you just said was “I need something shiny to reach for all the time. Without a vertical grind there is nothing to do.”

It was like this:
Legendary was the same as Exotic
Legendary just looked different – PERIOD

Now
Legendary is NOT the same as Exotic
Legendary is better than Exotic
Legendary is the same as Ascended

Now, how was Legendary supposed to be difficult to get and still not a grind? Because it was purely aesthetic and purely optional. You did not NEED to have Legendary armor. It did not increase any stats at all. It was something you acquired while just playing the game they way you wanted to play the game.

Now with the addition of a new and stronger class of armor, Legendary has become the template armor you HAVE to get if you don’t want to be forced into a constant gear treadmill when stats are raised to please the “Grinding is life” crowd. Ascended can only be obtained through “grinding” through a specific, single part of the game. Sure they will add other ways to get it, but when? How long will that take? Weeks? Months?

I have my exotics and was in no rush to get legendary items. NOW I have to actually work towards that specific goal on purpose because Legendary items will no longer be what I already have, they are better and will always be the best. A grind has been forced on me, just to remain competitive, until I get a full set of Legendary gear.

Legendary armor was not a grind because it was only aesthetic and therefore optional.
Legendary armor is now a grind because of the precedent set forth with Ascended armor.

For those who are brainwashed by the gear grind from other MMOs, you will never see a problem with this and there is nothing we can say to make you understand it. For those of us to are not of your ilk, we are seriously disheartened by this change.

There are Legendary armour?

helladoom.4317:

That is until the number grinders have aquired their ascended gear. Then they are again in the situation that there “there is no progression”.

Then what is Anet going to do?
Leave those people at the top of the stairs, or add yet harder content and more stats upgrades – and so come full circle into the threadmill trap?

Not to pick on anyone in particular, but there are a lot of “Well, what if/when this happens? This is what Anet will do!” posts going on. We don’t 100% sure know what Anet will do. All we have is what they’ve told us as a player base…

If we are going to try to fortell the future, I propose to you this… What if when players get tricked-out in Ascended gear, then the next step (in difficulty) would be Legendary items?

People keep saying: “They promised they won’t add a new tier”. They actually didn’t, they said they won’t add a new tier “every three months”. That means they can do it in one, or two, or four, or six.

People say “it’s not a grind, work for it”. Exotics require 5 blood, 5 ecto? Ascended require 250 blood (FIFTY times as much), and 50 ecto (ten times as much), and for the improved version another 250 ecto (FIFTY times as much). How would you describe that kind of increase? It’s not double, or triple, it’s x50. The only reason it’s not any higher is because items don’t stack to more than 250. And then there’s every other slot that will eventually have an Asceneded item made for it.

People are saying, “it’s not that much of a difference, it’s only X%”. Yeah, X% on the rings, on the backpack it’s huge increase, but even so, when you add all the other items they are going to add, it’s going to be at least six times bigger. Six armors, six trinkets, 2 weapons; that’s a lot of little bumps that add up to a BIG power bump.

People say “it won’t affect you, so ignore it”. It might not affect me now directly, but already the rest of the game is being dried up. And it will sure as kitten affect me later, when they have released all the ascended items. What? You think they will make new content at the old power level?

To everyone that says “it will be available later in WvW and other ways”, i direct you to the long list of features that were supposed to be in the game at launch and are still not there yet. All we know is “soon”. Soon doesn’t really mean anything. Why was it not there now?

moirweyn.9872:

I have my exotics and was in no rush to get legendary items. NOW I have to actually work towards that specific goal on purpose because Legendary items will no longer be what I already have, they are better and will always be the best. A grind has been forced on me, just to remain competitive, until I get a full set of Legendary gear.

Legendary armor was not a grind because it was only aesthetic and therefore optional.
Legendary armor is now a grind because of the precedent set forth with Ascended armor.

For those who are brainwashed by the gear grind from other MMOs, you will never see a problem with this and there is nothing we can say to make you understand it. For those of us to are not of your ilk, we are seriously disheartened by this change.

First of all, I think we all need a little bit of patience here to see how they implement the Ascended set down the road. Right now, there is no grind for anything. Everything is playable without it, PvP is not affected. The devs have stated this. I’m not sure what more they can do other than you prove them wrong with a youtube video. But, we all know you can’t do that yet, because you don’t have a full set.

Second, the door swings both ways regarding those of us who have been “brainwashed” by gear grinds, and those who hate it. If you are focusing on gear grind as compared to WoW and comparing it to Ascended, you cannot compare the two. Your character has dodge capabilities, not just gear to mitigate. You have skill combos and weapon swaps that if executed with correct timing will beat superior gear.

This is what we will see once Ascended has been fully implemented: that in a 1v1, with the same profession, same set of skills, the only difference being exotic and Ascended, Ascended will not win every time. Why is that? Well, you can’t predict weapon swaps, you can’t see what traits are in play, you don’t know what heals are out. What each character brings to the table with respect to their skill is random. You can’t predict their precise movement or skill usage. Therefore, you could swing and miss in all your pretty Ascended gear, and he could smack you around in all his lovely exotic gear. Correct? This is why we have dodge abilities and skills tied to weapons, right? It makes the fight that much more interesting than standing there swinging at each other. That’s the difference.

Some might say, well, why not battle with no gear? That’s not the implication. The implication is that how much more stat increase are you truly getting 20+% that you can’t mitigate with your own skill, if you were just talking about 1v1 PvP, all else being equal except for gear. It’s not WoW. The mechanics do not function the same.

Let’s remove PvP from the equation and focus on dungeons. Now some say they will have to get Ascended gear or they will not be accepted into the dungeon run. First, it depends on level, as we all know. Second, its more than just level, since your skill are in play. You can still dodge. Not forever, of course. At some point you will need to get the gear if you want to keep playing with more difficulty. Ok, I know. No one is going to rely on you telling them your expert dodge abilities will outweigh the need for gear at the most challenging of levels. That’s true. But how is this different from other games? If I want to solve harder levels, do I need to find the sword-of-butt-kick to work towards those levels? Sometimes in games you do need to get stronger to play through harder content.

It’s all coming down to philosophy, really. We have to adapt to change. Games constantly change. It is not logical to assume Anet would not provide more challenging content, and goals to obtain more elite skills, weapons, or amour to play through it. It is not reasonable to believe that once you receive exotic gear, you are done. Done with what? Done playing? That’s single player. Maybe that worked in the context of GW1, but it doesn’t work in a much more dynamic system here.

And whether Anet lied or betrayed or whatever you want to call it, has it ever occurred to you that maybe they recognized the need for change later. Are they not allowed to try new things? Do they need your permission? I think not. You have a choice, as they do, to change or not. You can grow with the game, or not. In fact, their growth is a stepping stone, quite slow as they test the waters, review its effect on gameplay. Why not give them a chance. Why instead of persecuting them for misleading you, open your mind a bit. If they say they intend no grind, why not accept it until you see different? If you have so little faith in them, why did you bother to buy the game in the first place? These are the questions I think some of you need to ask.

You can say that PvP is not affected all day long, it doesn’t make it so. PvP is always affected by stats and WvW is a form of PvP.

Two things:

1) Snazzy: There is no grind for anything? Seriously? I stopped reading your post at that point because Ascended gear is a definitely a grind. (Because you are forced into a single mode of play over and over and over again to get it).

2) PvP is not affected by this (WvW does not use PvP rules, it follows PvE rules)

Orwell said that the problem with a cliche isn’t that it’s popular or overused; the problem with a cliche is that it does the thinking for you. You spit out a cliche when you don’t know what else to say, and when you aren’t being critical.

For the last two weeks, this forums has been caught in a series of circular arguments that lead nowhere and conclude nothing, and as a community we’re nowhere close to a clearer understanding of this issue than we were on the 15th. I suspect the argument will ultimately die out through attrition, but that’s beside the point.

The point is we’re arguing about the grind, the treadmill, vertical and horizontal progression without actually knowing what these terms mean. This is like trying to have a political discussion over the course of two weeks with several hundreds of participants, none of whom have the same definition on what “socialism” or “deficit” or “entitlement” or “mandate” actually mean.

The OP wants to have a discussion about the discussion itself—a kind of meta-argument. Okay, but if we’re doing that, then we need to talk about this problem of cliches. We haven’t been able to have a cohesive and productive debate over the issue of Ascended Gear and its place in Guild Wars 2 because we don’t agree on the necessary terms which we’re arguing about.

What’s a grind? Some of us have argued that any boring, repetitive activity is a grind, like the “grind” to level 80. Or the “grind” for getting a Legendary. Or the dungeon grind for new skins. The Manifesto defines the “grind” in terms of raiding—or the gear grind, in which every new tier of gear forces you to constantly grind out more dungeons, more gear and invest more hours doing the same thing just to keep up.

But that’s actually the definition of a “treadmill.” A treadmill never ends, and it functions by giving you the illusion of progress without actually advancing you another inch. You work because you’re forced to; stop walking and you’ll be thrown off. So the gear treadmill is a design concept in which the game introduces new tiers of gear as soon as you finish the last one, which leads to a neverending grind (there’s that word again) on a road that never ends (a treadmill) for a reward you’ll never get (a carrot).

Which is yet another term we can’t seem to clearly define. Personally I think a carrot is a long, orange taproot of the Apiaecae family, which goes well on salads when grated—but that’s neither here or there. The etymology of the MMO cliche “carrot” comes from the image of a carrot-on-a-stick. The story goes that if you want to a mule to pull your cart, you hang a carrot from a stick in front of its eyes, and it’s going to chase it forever. So a carrot is a goal you can never reach, which appeals to your basic lust for progress. But we’ve also been using the “carrot” to mean “any goal at all.”

TLDR Version

We’ve been having a debate over the Manifesto and whether ArenaNet broke its word by introducing a grind at endgame. Is the Ascended Gear a viable carrot for casuals and hardcore players alike? Do all MMOs need to have a treadmill in order to be successful? Does Ascended gear count as vertical progression if it’s just there to bridge the legendary gap? And how fun was grinding for skins anyway, if that’s what horizontal progression means? Is this the fault of locusts or fanbois?

^

The above is a summary of the arguments we’ve been having for two weeks now. I’ve italicized every term for which we have absolutely no clear definition.

I don’t know how we’re supposed to have a constructive debate like this.

@Amonde Daneren: You bring up some very vaild points. While I don’t think that Ascended gear is as terrible for GW2 as it is being made out to be, I’m still on the fence as to how I feel about it. I’m glad that I have more stuff to work towards. However, Ascended gear (if only for the moment) has thrown a lot of things off-balance. If you’ve not very lucky, Ascended gear IS a grind. I’m not going to argue with you there.

Compared to a lot of other gamers, I maybe considered more casual. Most of my armor is still greens. I do have yellow trinkets and a back-piece. My weapon of choice is my only current Exotic. I’m starting on explorables to slowly grind my first exotic gearset. I’ve started in FoTM. But so far, no one has complained to me about my gear stats, or dps/survivability despite being a front-line hammer guardian. Could I be just a little bit better if I had full exotics? Sure. Do I need them to be effective? Not right now, no. I’m not going to ignore Ascended gear… I’ll just get there when I get there. Or I may ignore it alltogether, depending on the situation.

As to why Ascended gear was not made available outside grinding FotM right from the start? I can only guess. If I had to guess… I’d say they didn’t have enough time to get that pushed out right now.

moirweyn.9872:

Two things:
2) PvP is not affected by this (WvW does not use PvP rules, it follows PvE rules)

Doesn’t mean it’s not player versus player. It is. Which means player stats affect the outcome.

Corvindi.5734:

moirweyn.9872:

Two things:
2) PvP is not affected by this (WvW does not use PvP rules, it follows PvE rules)

Doesn’t mean it’s not player versus player. It is. Which means player stats affect the outcome.

Oh I agree completely, WvW should be considered PvP.

ANet, for some reason, disagrees and thinks WvW is PvE. So, as far as the actual rules are concerned, PvP is not affected.

JSmooth.7654:

"No stat gap. No time gap. No effort gap"
- how long did it take you to get your exotics? How long for your legendary? Did they cost any different?

"As it stands, Exotic gear fills in the time and effort gaps between Legendary and Ascended gear, not the other way around."
- GW2 Wiki contradicts this. Compare the stats. If this were true, we wouldn’t be discussing it cause no one would care.

"if it was an issue of there being a time and effort gap, then why would a stat gap be necessary?"
- necessary? I don’t believe they HAD to add a stat gap. But, this is the game we currently live in. Doesn’t mean I agree with it. Although, adding a new middle tier of gear would seem silly to me if it offered no perks. Why not just add more legendaries then?

"It is entirely irrelevant whether you have to do that just once, whether you have to do it every three months, or whether you have to do it every year."
- a have to disagree. I have to level from 1 to 80, but don’t consider it a treadmill. Like in real life, if a treadmill stops, you don’t continue walking on it... kinda defeats the purpose.

"Many, many people have been polite, courteous, articulate, and entirely constructive in giving their feedback and criticism."
- I know, and that’s awsome. I don’t have to agree with them. And, that’s ok.

Im a casual player and I found exotics very quick and easy to get... I felt too quick and easy (specially when compared to legendary and ascended).

Corvindi.5734:

moirweyn.9872:

Two things:
2) PvP is not affected by this (WvW does not use PvP rules, it follows PvE rules)

Doesn’t mean it’s not player versus player. It is. Which means player stats affect the outcome.

Individual player stats will not affect the outcome of WvW. Overall server cohesion, tactics and leadership will. The reason any of the top servers in T1/T2 are there is because they fight as a team, now how to take advantage of situations, and communicate really well. We use a server wide TS for SoR where all the guilds can jump in and communicate with each other. We barely have infighting, and we work well together, be it in a zerg, or small roaming parties. I can guarantee you a majority of our server still doesn’t have 100% exotics, and some of our more prominent leaders, including many in my guild aren’t even worrying about the ascended gear. I have one piece, Koss on Koss, and you know what? Not even worth the cost. The stat increase is so minimal, it barely changes a thing.

tkalamba.2541:

Corvindi.5734:

moirweyn.9872:

Two things:
2) PvP is not affected by this (WvW does not use PvP rules, it follows PvE rules)

Doesn’t mean it’s not player versus player. It is. Which means player stats affect the outcome.

Individual player stats will not affect the outcome of WvW. Overall server cohesion, tactics and leadership will. The reason any of the top servers in T1/T2 are there is because they fight as a team, now how to take advantage of situations, and communicate really well. We use a server wide TS for SoR where all the guilds can jump in and communicate with each other. We barely have infighting, and we work well together, be it in a zerg, or small roaming parties. I can guarantee you a majority of our server still doesn’t have 100% exotics, and some of our more prominent leaders, including many in my guild aren’t even worrying about the ascended gear. I have one piece, Koss on Koss, and you know what? Not even worth the cost. The stat increase is so minimal, it barely changes a thing.

Bullcrap. I’ve fought 1v1 or 5v5 many times in WvW. Stats matter. No, they probably won’t decide the weekly score, but that isn’t the important part of WvW anyway. The important part is the experience of each player. And my experience in past MMOs that allowed gear to matter in PvP tells me not to bother with WvW anymore unless I choose to grind out that gear.

They should have made WvW like sPvP from the get go, actually, it was dumb of them not to, especially if they knew at the time that more gear might get added on top of Exotics.

Corvindi.5734:

tkalamba.2541:

Corvindi.5734:

moirweyn.9872:

Two things:
2) PvP is not affected by this (WvW does not use PvP rules, it follows PvE rules)

Doesn’t mean it’s not player versus player. It is. Which means player stats affect the outcome.

Individual player stats will not affect the outcome of WvW. Overall server cohesion, tactics and leadership will. The reason any of the top servers in T1/T2 are there is because they fight as a team, now how to take advantage of situations, and communicate really well. We use a server wide TS for SoR where all the guilds can jump in and communicate with each other. We barely have infighting, and we work well together, be it in a zerg, or small roaming parties. I can guarantee you a majority of our server still doesn’t have 100% exotics, and some of our more prominent leaders, including many in my guild aren’t even worrying about the ascended gear. I have one piece, Koss on Koss, and you know what? Not even worth the cost. The stat increase is so minimal, it barely changes a thing.

Bullcrap. I’ve fought 1v1 or 5v5 many times in WvW. Stats matter. No, they probably won’t decide the weekly score, but that isn’t the important part of WvW anyway. The important part is the experience of each player. And my experience in past MMOs that allowed gear to matter in PvP tells me not to bother with WvW anymore unless I choose to grind out that gear.

They should have made WvW like sPvP from the get go, actually, it was dumb of them not to, especially if they knew at the time that more gear might get added on top of Exotics.

I’ve fought 1v1 and 5v5 too, but the fact of the matter is, most battles aren’t just 1v1 and 5v5. They often balloon much higher. Also, I’ve won plenty of 1v1 matches and lost plenty too, in different sets of gear, with different traits. Even fought guys using food buffs and still won. It won’t matter if you have +1% higher power, if i know my character and build, I can still come out on top.

Have your entire server fight naked, with level 10 characters see who wins. Heck, put blue armor on them all and see what happens…

tkalamba.2541:

Individual player stats will not affect the outcome of WvW. Overall server cohesion, tactics and leadership will.

Tactics are important, yes they are, but so are individual stats.

You made me lol

moirweyn.9872:

Have your entire server fight naked, with level 10 characters see who wins. Heck, put blue armor on them all and see what happens…

tkalamba.2541:

Individual player stats will not affect the outcome of WvW. Overall server cohesion, tactics and leadership will.

Tactics are important, yes they are, but so are individual stats.

You made me lol

It’s not like the entirety of a server fights in exotics. Half my guild is leveling alts, some as low as level 20 at the moment, and still have no issues in WvW. No server currently winning in WVW is all level 80’s. Most are being upscaled.

I’ve seen plenty of people run naked and still net kills. Don’t forget, siege isn’t effected by stats, so someone manning an arrowcart, or ballista will do the same damage, and decimate a level 80 regardless if they were wearing anything or not. There isn’t enough of a difference between Ascended gear and Exotics to worry about it. The accessories give the smallest available increase in stats. Additionally, if stats mattered all that much, I wouldn’t have been able to trait my engineer to have +200 toughness with a flamethrower, or use food buffs. You also wouldn’t be able to successfully siege a captured keep claimed by a guild, as more often than not they are running buffs that further skew stats.

WvW by nature is unbalanced, and will never be equal in stats. It’s perfectly fine this way. Worrying over the +1% to your total stat pool is pointless.

Ascended as a precursor tier that can slowly be upgraded to leggy, great, indeed, it’s what I hoped for.

Ascended as a gating mechanism… generally acceptable to me in its current “childhood” form. I’m seeing the treads though, and I’ll be clear: treadmill is NOT acceptable.

But… and this is a big but…

Ascended with higher stats? We all know why. Grinder want shiny stat. Grinder didn’t accept manifesto. NCSoft want wow shiny.
I don’t want that, same for many. We bought this game to get away from that trash system. We advertised: no grinding for stats. Now we’re betrayed.
They sold out one of their biggest principles for a quick buck. Now how am I supposed to trust their new promises? Hell, how am I supposed to believe they’ll keep their other promises? Final final tier? Sure, until the next. Shame on you if you fool me once…

[edit] To those saying it’s minimal: its still there. You’re not arguing in favor of it. You argue that it’s not worth complaining. While I accept your stance, I disagree, fearing precedent, the full set, and eventually stronger infusions. If you’re neutral, please act like it. If you’re in favor of the change, please play open cards and argue why [/edit]

How to solve it?
- For one, be honest. Either announce a revert (or steps to minimize the issue as below), or publically admit you’re selling us out.
- Second, add it in PvE and WvW asap. If you can’t do it now, make clear when you’ll do it, and what the prices wil be.
- Third, if you can’t do a revert, add a variant with the same stats (as modified by upgrades) without agony resist, at 2x exotic prices. Be absolutely clear this’ll be the last stat tier.
- Fourth, if you refuse this also, we can be simple: currently only the backpiece, afaik, has its price set. All other pieces can be added at a normal price. This would reduce the issue to only one slot.
- Fifth, comparably, all items but rings/backpiece can still be added with exotic stats, reducing it to three slots.
- And six: if I’m correct in guessing NCSoft is making decisions about matters they don’t understand, please be so kind to print out every single post made opposing this, and require them to read all of them before they ever make a “suggestion” again. I doubt they’ll learn, but at least it should keep them busy while ANet can make the beautiful game they planned to make.

Probably missed some points, but I have to do some fun stuff before it gets removed.

slazzy.7309

It’s all coming down to philosophy, really. We have to adapt to change. Games constantly change. It is not logical to assume Anet would not provide more challenging content, and goals to obtain more elite skills, weapons, or amour to play through it. It is not reasonable to believe that once you receive exotic gear, you are done. Done with what? Done playing? That’s single player. Maybe that worked in the context of GW1, but it doesn’t work in a much more dynamic system here.

Indeed, it all boils down to philosophy, but why should you also not be open minded enough to understand that many of these disgruntled players have the right to feel this way? Would you feel the same if roles were reversed? Why is it “close minded” to believe that it’s possible to “be done” with Exotics? Couldn’t someone argue that you are being close minded for not believing that it’s possible to not have vertical progression and still have fun? Your favored philosophy is not necessarily the “right” one for this game, especially given the original intentions in its design-we need not feel beholden to thse all-too-common vertical progression “MMO rules”, especially since it’s a GW game after all.

I meant no offense, and you probably won’t change your mind anyway, which is OK. Also, not all people that are against these “misteps” (as we see them) are mindlessly trolling/being rude with the company, though I feel the company should be much nicer to/transparent with its quite loyal fanbase.