Guild Wars 2

Now that elite specializations are the future, I can help but wonder what’s going to happen with core professions. Don’t get me wrong, I love elite specs, and I think they’re the best way to grow professions forward.

However, I feel like core professions are kinda incomplete, missing some core elements, like ranged variety, support options, etc. This is worrying, because core professions are the foundation for all future elite specs. If core professions are weak, elite specializations will be weak.

This could be blamed on the old profession growth model, where single skills where the way to go, and the sudden switch to the new elite spec model without strengthening the foundation. So, that’s why I believe we need a revamp of core professions. I’m not demanding this change, and I don’t expect this to happen, but I still think this is a discussion worth happening.

Elite specializations should be about new exciting stuff, and not about fixing core profession problems, which seems to be the case with some of the first generation elite specs.

So, what would this revamp be about? These would be the main points:

• Missing and inconsistent utilities: Every profession is missing 1 healing skill, and 2 elite skills. Some utilities aren’t classified under families, or are classified in families that don’t make too much sense. The June 2015 update helped, a lot, but didn’t finish the job.
• Missing basic roles and weapon proficiencies: Some professions feel like they’re missing some weapons, weapons that wouldn’t make too much sense through specializations. Off-hand sword in ranger, main-hand pistol in mesmer, etc. Also, some professions need expanded basic roles, like additional ranged options, something the guardian really suffers from, or cleaving for the necromancer.
• Expanded profession mechanics: Enabling customization of profession mechanics at core could let elite specializations aim much higher. What if the necromancer had different shrouds to choose from? Customizable mesmer shatters or guardian virtues? Alternates to thief steal?

But what if we went further, completely changing profession mechanics to adapt them to better models of elite specialization growth?

It’s no secret either, that some of the current core professions aren’t growth-friendly, specially the elementalist and the engineer. Making new stuff for them implies a larger amount of work, because of attunements and the tool belt. These two also take a lot of space in the mechanic bar, limiting the possibilities for the future.

This could pose a potential risk of quality for both professions in the future. For example, giving the elementalist a greatsword would require 20 new skills, instead of the normal 5 everyone else gets, lowering the chances of this happening. A revamp could take this into consideration, and make development of new content for professions be easier to develop by providing a better foundation.

Potential sacrifice of quality could be fixed by enabling weapon swap, or adding new weapon proficiencies.

What do you think of this? If you want, we could discuss each profession in more detail, using a new thread for each of them, and leaving this as the index for them.

• Elementalist: Coming soon
• Mesmer: Coming soon
• Necromancer: Coming soon
• Engineer: Coming soon
• Ranger: Coming soon
• Thief: Coming soon
• Guardian: Coming soon
• Revenant: Coming soon
• Warrior: Coming soon

I do believe this could be a very interesting discussion, as long as people is open to change and try new exciting ideas. After all, it’s not like we’re doing any of this, it’s just some healthy discussion.

Also worth reading: New weapon types and future elite specs, where I explain why new weapon types are necessary to keep elite specializations fresh, or we’d be doomed to get “lame” new weapon proficiencies, like warrior staff, guardian pistols, etc, instead of new exciting stuff like warrior greataxe, or guardian spears.

Lonami.2987:

• Missing and inconsistent utilities: Every profession is missing 1 healing skill, and 2 elite skills. Some utilities aren’t classified under families, or are classified in families that don’t make too much sense. The June 2015 update helped, a lot, but didn’t finish the job.

Agreed.

• Missing basic roles and weapon proficiencies: Some professions feel like they’re missing some weapons, weapons that wouldn’t make too much sense through specializations. Off-hand sword in ranger, main-hand pistol in mesmer, etc. Also, some professions need expanded basic roles, like additional ranged options, something the guardian really suffers from, or cleaving for the necromancer.
• Expanded profession mechanics: Enabling customization of profession mechanics at core could let elite specializations aim much higher. What if the necromancer had different shrouds to choose from? Customizable mesmer shatters or guardian virtues? Alternates to thief steal?

I completely disagree here. This is exactly what elite specs are there for.

Lonami.2987:

But what if we went further, completely changing profession mechanics to adapt them to better models of elite specialization growth?

It’s no secret either, that some of the current core professions aren’t growth-friendly, specially the elementalist and the engineer. Making new stuff for them implies a larger amount of work, because of attunements and the tool belt. These two also take a lot of space in the mechanic bar, limiting the possibilities for the future.

This could pose a potential risk of quality for both professions in the future. For example, giving the elementalist a greatsword would require 20 new skills, instead of the normal 5 everyone else gets, lowering the chances of this happening. A revamp could take this into consideration, and make development of new content for professions be easier to develop by providing a better foundation.

Potential sacrifice of quality could be fixed by enabling weapon swap, or adding new weapon proficiencies.

And you think completely redesigning core professions in such a fundamental way is a good way to spent development resources and balancing efforts?

Lonami.2987:

Also worth reading: New weapon types and future elite specs, where I explain why new weapon types are necessary to keep elite specializations fresh, or we’d be doomed to get “lame” new weapon proficiencies, like warrior staff, guardian pistols, etc, instead of new exciting stuff like warrior greataxe, or guardian spears.

And I disagree, at least for now. I’d say we still have a good 3 or possibly even more elite specs to go before this becomes a real problem. And we’re probably at the end of GW2’s lifecycle by then. Don’t get me wrong, there are weapon types I’d love seeing in the game but adding new weapon types takes a lot of resources in terms of combat animations and adding skins and one can wonder whether that is worth it. We might just get greataxes as a greatsword or hammer skin.

In my opinion it is not just only the Core Professions that could eventually need a Gameplay Revamp… it is in reality the whole outdated combat system which Anet “balanced” around only some specific things over the last 4 years very sparesely, while they ignored all other key factors that play also too a very important role in the whole balancing process of this games complete combat system.

They need to do first:

• Make Class Health become balanced individually Each Class tshould receive their very own balanced Max Health Pool, instead of that beign balanced after Class Types.
• Redesign the Attribute System into a Dual Attribute System with clearly rebalanced Attributes, especially the defensive and supportive ones, so that they provide also essential synergies, and not only the offensive ones.
• Completely Rework and Rebalance the Upgrade System (Runes, Sigils, Crests, Gemstones and remove unneccessary upgrade Types, that provide no unique gameplay mechanics.

- Runes should be based only by 100% on adding Combat Effects, no Attributes
- Sigils shoul be based only by 100% on Skill&Trait Effects, no Attributes
- Gemstones should be based only 100% significant Attribute Boosts, no Effects
- Crests should be based on 50% Attributes + 50% Combat Effects, they would basically be like Runes now, only without Set Bonus, but instead with a Class Bonus, if you use a Crest in your Build, that is fitting to your Class. Example: A Soldier Crest gives for example a Warrior a Class Bonus for using it, while an Elementalist wouln’t receive that, but the Elementalist would receive a Class Bonus from using a Mage Crest, while a Warrior wouldn’t.
- Talismans should be based on 100% Trait Effects, this way should become players able to receive Trait Effects, while not effectively using eventually the Trait Line for the cost of losing some Attribute Points. A Critical, tricky Daredevil for example coudl get this way for losing some Attribute Points the ability to use still specific Shadow Arts, Deadly Art or Acrobatics Traits

• Make your proposed Changes in regard of:
  - Give all Classes the missing Healing/Utility/Elite Skills, so that each Skil ltype as on each Class the equal amount of Skills and that all Skill Type basically have Healing, Utility and Elite Skills.
  - Make specific Missing Weapons baseline for the Core classes, where it makes no sense for them to make extra Elite Specializations for – Example, make Offhand Sword for Thief baseline, make Mainhand Dagger for Ranger baseline and so on..sure, this means to make a few new Skills, but new Skills that can greatly have effect on Build Diversity positively!!
  - Rebalance and Redesign class specific gameplay Mechanics like Attunements, Shrouds, Tools ect, add more Customization to these Gameplay Mechanics like proposed here and change the mechanics in such a way, so that Classes like Elementalist and Engineer are no longer anymore total Balancing Nightmares because of their gameplay Mechanics creating with each Elite Spec tons of new Skills, while all other classes are alot easier to handle, because unlike the Eles Attunements their Systems don’t multiply the required amount of Skills by 4 instantly.

Example on Elementalist’s Attunement Gameplay Redesign:

• Each Elementalist can have now only maximum 1 Element, means when you create an Elementalist, you will have to specialize yourself directly to 1 Element.
  No more Attunement Changing = No more each mechanic must mean directly 4 new Skills Horror
• As Compensation for this Change becomes Elementalist able to swap Weapons .
  *The Attunement System gets replaced with a Spell Fusion System, which allows Elementalists based on their chosen Main Element to combine them with the other Elements to create based on what Element was the main Element different “Cataclysms”

Example… you have take the path of a Pyromancer as Elementalist, so your Main Element is Fire, which allows you to combine your Fire Spells with Spell Fusion in this way:

Fire (M) + Water (F1) = Hot Steam
Fire (M) + Earth (F2) = Magma Eruption
Fire (M) + Air (F3) = Thunderstorm
Fire (M) + Shadow (F4) = Shadow Flame
Fire (M) + Light (F5) = Sun Orb

A Hydromancer would receive completely different Spell Fusions due to Water being Main Element

Water (M) + Fire = Geysir Cascade
Water (M) + Earth = Mud Wave
Water (M) + Air = Freeze Lancer
Water (M) + Shadow = Aqua Sphere
Water (M) + Light = Water Mirror

Part 2:

A Tempest instead uses then “Elemental Overcharges”, where based on your chosen Element you can use some specific Element based Skills, a normal Elementalist wouldnt be able to use, because he can’t overcharge his own Element.
He won’t be able to swap to different Elements, he is purely focused on 1 Element only and makes usage through Elemental Overcharges of that one Element to it’s fullest possible extent, where the basic Elementalist rather fusions his Element with the others instead to get this way more powerful spells.

By changing the Elementalist this way, Devs wouldn’t have to make anymore for each Weapon and the 4 Elements instantly like 8-20 new Skills anymore, the Elementalist would become alot easier to balance logically and more overviewable as a Class and its Elite Specs which also would profitate from this change of being then alot easier to balance… plus Eles would become able then like mostly all other Classes then to to profitate from Weapon Swapping.
The Amount of Skills would be reduced to 6*5 = 30 Fusion Spells by becoming either a Pyromancer, Hydromancer, Aeromancer, Geomancer, Luxomancer or Umbromancer when you create your Elementalist as part of the Character Creation to decide, what your Main Element is and your 10 Weapon Skills you have then with 2 Weapon Sets.

So with my System an Elementalist would have 15 Weapon/Class Mechanic Skills at any given time to use in combat with 2 Weapons.
With Anets System you have at any given time 20 Weapon/Class Mechanic Skills with only 1 Weapon.
Means, this proposal makes it effectively 25% easier to balance the Elementalist Class, while giving them at the same time more Build Diversity through a second Weapon to swap out, while also not losing the great aspect of flexibility due to having as core Elementalist with Spell Fusions an easy expandable flexible system that can provide skills for all kinds of tactical usages, which must not stay at 1 skill per Fusion Combination, Anet coudl expand them to provide like per Combination like 2-3 different options of Fusion Spells you coudl use to increase the Build Divesity, but with the big difference, that udner this system the Class woudl be alot easier to play and understand, because you wouldn#t have to cycle through the Elements anymore permanently like crazy, just to get to become able to use the Spells, that you want to use…

• After fixing the Health System and the Attribute System and fixing the Class Based thigns like Missing Skills, Missing Weapons ect., they need to completely rework and rebalance the Condition and Boon System.

Merge Boons and Conditions where possible, add for the created gaps when needed new helpful Boons and Conditions that can shake up the metas and make Combat in general more fun and interesting.
Change Condition Effects, the Game has way too many damaging Conditions right now with Bleeding, Poison, Burning, Confusion, Chill if Traited as Necromancer to deal Damage, Fear (Terror) if traited. Like over the half of all Conditions deal damage or casn deal damage if the right builds are used… imo too much, it should be reduced to a ratio of 33% of all Conditions should deal damage with mainly Bleeding, Poison & Burning. Nothing else should be able to deal passively over time damage

Confusion needs to get nerfed back to the state, where it deals only actively damage, if you do something that actually would hurt your enemy, so if you deal damage to them, and ONLY THEN.
Torment should deal only actively damage, when you are moving, not when you are standing still…

The options that Fear and Chill can deal passively damage over time need to get removed or changed into something, that affects players only, when they do somethign actively, like Chill dealing more significant damage, if the player actively uses one of their Utility Skills or their Healing Skill. Or Fear dealing actively damage
only as Terror, if you as player where actively facing the Necromancer when he used the skill, not when you were already liek runnign away from them showing them your back…. (cause you can’t be terrorized from something you don’t see …)

• Then lastly the Class Mechanis of all Core Classes need to get overworked, where needed, like in my Elementalist Example.
  Once this has been done, then the game is ready for more Elite Specializations with completely own different Gameplay mechanics and also hopefully completely new Weapon Types

Diovid.9506:

I completely disagree here. This is exactly what elite specs are there for.

Elite specializations should give new ways of playing a profession. Not fix their holes. The guardian needs more ranged weapons at core, and the necromancer needs cleaving at core too. Those are basic roles, and elite specs shouldn’t be about basic roles, but advanced ones.

Elite specs like the druid or the chronomancer are the way to go. Dragonhunter and berserker are the type of elite specs that don’t really change the way you play.

Diovid.9506:

And you think completely redesigning core professions in such a fundamental way is a good way to spent development resources and balancing efforts?

We’re talking, not deciding the future of the game. Restrain from “it’s too hard to do”-type comments, please.

Diovid.9506:

And I disagree, at least for now. I’d say we still have a good 3 or possibly even more elite specs to go before this becomes a real problem. And we’re probably at the end of GW2’s lifecycle by then. Don’t get me wrong, there are weapon types I’d love seeing in the game but adding new weapon types takes a lot of resources in terms of combat animations and adding skins and one can wonder whether that is worth it. We might just get greataxes as a greatsword or hammer skin.

Warrior and guardian have nowhere to go as of now. Just check the weapon proficiency tables: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon#Weapon_usability_by_professions

Lonami.2987:

Elite specializations should give new ways of playing a profession. Not fix their holes. The guardian needs more ranged weapons at core, and the necromancer needs cleaving at core too. Those are basic roles, and elite specs shouldn’t be about basic roles, but advanced ones.

The only problem is that by design Elite specs are here to “fix holes”. Because there’s a kind of pressure put on players to buy into the expansions and thus the elite specs if they “fix holes”.

Let’s look at ranger – nobody wanted rangers in their groups pre-HoT – at least not most PUG groups. Because of pets and clunky mechanics.
This “hole” has been fixed through Druid – the go-to healer for most groups (organized or pugs). The only thing is that to become a druid you have to spend money on HoT.

So by fixing this hole through an elite spec Anet adds pressure on players to buy expansions and buy into the “fix”.

“You want to play your ranger in groups because you like rangers? – just give us this money here and get HoT and you’ve got yourself a one-way ticket to any group that needs a healer”

“You want a decent ranged option on your guardian? – get this HoT and you’ve got it.”.

So because of this – because elite specs and what they bring to the table for professions (especially in the area of fixing “holes”) are a huge driving force behind expansion sales I doubt we will ever see any more expansion or work done on the “core” classes.

It’s sad – but it is what it is.

No, they have plenty of places to go. Its only you that says otherwise because you can’t envision staff warrior for example being “cool enough”.

They should start by getting rid of Ferocity and making crits 200% like other games. This would open up more room for defensive stats. Adjust condition damage accordingly!

Then get rid of signet and trait passives and get a new account-wide passive system at lvl80 that provides “unlockable” extra stats including 25% movement speed for everyone (this would be similar to Planar Attunement in RIFT).

Lower every skill cooldown in the game by 25-50% (depends on skill), get rid of -cd traits and add more fun traits instead.

Once these changes are done, they can do adjustments to every profession individually.

Lonami.2987:

Warrior and guardian have nowhere to go as of now. Just check the weapon proficiency tables: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon#Weapon_usability_by_professions

Don’t elite specs give new skills to weapons? They could take an existing weapon that a profession uses and give it a new set of skills. This probably would mean that the old set of skills is unusable for that spec but it’s one way to add a new set of weapon skills without adding a new weapon.

Who knows, maybe they could have an NPC that customizes a weapon for that set of
skills if your specced for it and you have another non customized weapon for the old skills. That way, for example on warrior, his uncustomized greatsword has the old skills and his customized greatsword has the new skills and by weapon swapping he uses both.