Guild Wars 2

For clarity, I’ll use what I consider one of the the strongest and one of the weakest 10 point traits in the game.

Mug (Thief): grants 4,000 – 7,500 damage to steal

Vampiric Precision (Necromancer): grants 32 health/deals 32 dmg on a critical hit

For those who don’t play necromancer, 32 is not a typo. With the addition of another necromancer major trait (Bloodthirst), you can increase the siphon to a whopping 51 health per critical hit. With ~50% crit chance and 2 hits per second, the combined effect of these major traits is 2*0.5*51 = 51 heal/second.
In other words, with constant attacking you are able to negate HALF of ONE bleed stack with these TWO traits
~1-2 minutes of constant smacking will allow your two combined traits to do ONE mug of damage

I’m not sure what aspect of necromancer was so wildly overpowered to warrant this disparity in trait strength. Perhaps Reanimator. On a serious note, it is painfully obvious that there is a gap in effectiveness between traits that should be addressed to promote build balance and/or diversity. THESE GAPS ARE NOTICEABLE ACROSS ALL PROFESSIONS.

NOTE: I am not voicing an opinion on whether Thief/Necromancer is overpowered/underpowered, merely that there is a HUGE disparity between some traits. Thieves have their fair share of weak/useless traits and Necromancers have their fair share of strong traits. I picked these two traits because I think they highlight the extremes on the trait spectrum.

Different professions are different, but you managed to choose the most overpowered trait in the game and compared it to one of the worst traits in the game.

Mug is a 45s CD, by the way. Theoretically, AoE’ing a group of mobs as a crit spec on a Necromancer will produce several thousand damage from the lifestealing in that time period as well, not to mention all the healing.

First of all, how on earth did you get a 7,5k Mug crit if you are not hitting a level 2 character in WvWvW?

Second of all, Mug is affected by both your traits / gear and the opponents traits / gear, whereas life steal is not, save for your critical chance %.

Yes, there is disparity between the two traits in terms of power, but it is nowhere near what you make it sound like.

I think I can actually name a worse trait than those terrible Vampiric traits.
Halting Strike (Mesmer, Adept major trait, Domination line).
At 916 Power, it deals 67 damage when you interrupt someone.
Interrupts are rare occurrences, but even if they were about as common as in GW1 that would still be awful.
In fact, that’s only slightly more than the damage Frustration caused in GW1. Except that back then, standard max health was 500, not 10k+.

You want to see something funny/sad regarding traits? Check out section 5 in the list of engineer bugs and then we can have a conversation about the best/worse traits.

I think I saw some worse traits in the Thief line, but it is debatable for sure. I particularly like the “improved death” trait thieves have with the 50% damage while downed. The irony in it is that it is actually pretty friggin good out in the open world. Yet one can’t shake the idea that traits are supposed to keep you out of a downed state for as long as possible.

There is another one in the power tree that resets a randomly picked category of skills when you.. steal I think? I dunno, it just seems like the random nature of it makes it incredibly undesirable.

i really support this, some traits are complete trash

we should make a list

How about the Grandmaster Guardian Trait that heals you for a whole 25 HP/hit with a Greatsword.

LinkR.6190:

I dunno, it just seems like the random nature of it makes it incredibly undesirable.

Engineers have a whole set of skills, that have random effects (including one elite skill!). So don’t tell me about some optional trait.

And devs still say engis are fine.

The randomness of engineers never seemed too bad to be tbh. Although I agree the uncertainty is annoying, for the most part each random affect engs get provides SOME use. The thieves trait will 3/4th of the time provide no help at all unless you really branch out with your skill types. Don’t get me wrong though, I am not defending the engineers concept. They do need improvement. Probably more then any other class at the moment. They require both more skill to out perform their short comings AND the class acts like a freaking slot machine. To this day I still wonder why a kit justifies the loss of a weapon swap when the kits are freaking equipped as skills! Elementalists don’t need to sacrifice any slots to have all their elements available. Why not just make the kits your F keys?

Talk about missing the forest for the trees…

People, people, he is comparing traits of equal point costs, not all traits across the board.

Best i can tell, ANet has a fobia regarding bunker builds that goes back to GW1. So anything that have the slightest chance of making a effective bunker build was nerfed before release, and will be nerfed as a ongoing process.

The only profession that has a solid return on investment in terms of healing power is the elementalist. And it only applies to 2 or 3 of their water skills. Amusingly, cleansing wave is one of them. Yep, the skill that is on off hand dagger and also as part of evasive arcana.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Vigor

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Implant

I have been confused ever since I found these two.

ndrangles.5183:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Vigor

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Implant

I have been confused ever since I found these two.

Honestly, from the thread title, those 2 were what I was expecting the OP to bring up.

ndrangles.5183:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Vigor

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Implant

I have been confused ever since I found these two.

i’ve never even noticed that, always thought it was lack luster for a grandmaster trait, but just wow.

I don’t know, but 50% more rolling sounds pretty good to me. I have had several clutch moments where a just a little more endurance could have saved my kitten

LinkR.6190:

I don’t know, but 50% more rolling sounds pretty good to me. I have had several clutch moments where a just a little more endurance could have saved my kitten

Oh, no. 50% more rolling is fine.

But check the tiers of the two traits. THAT is disparity.

ndrangles.5183:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Vigor

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Implant

I have been confused ever since I found these two.

You want ANet to just delete all traits and skills and weapons and make all classes warriors maybe?

stof.9341:

You want ANet to just delete all traits and skills and weapons and make all classes warriors maybe?

Look closer….so close, it’s almost as if it’s right above you

ndrangles.5183:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Vigor

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Implant

I have been confused ever since I found these two.

lets add more to the insult

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leg_Mods

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Shoes

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Energy_Conversion_Matrix

Rezzet.3614:

ndrangles.5183:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Vigor

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Implant

I have been confused ever since I found these two.

lets add more to the insult

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leg_Mods

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Shoes

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Energy_Conversion_Matrix

lol the first 2 are ele minor traits (we get 2%dmg per boon)

Windwalker.2047:

Rezzet.3614:

ndrangles.5183:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Vigor

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Implant

I have been confused ever since I found these two.

lets add more to the insult

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leg_Mods

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Shoes

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Energy_Conversion_Matrix

lol the first 2 are ele minor traits (we get 2%dmg per boon)

precisely the point what everyone else gets even at minor engis get at master or grandmaster Major and dont sacrifice whole builds for it therefore effectively killing our so called “godlike versatility” wich is the grand excuse for our nerfs and sacrifices.

Engie traits suck. Never met anybody except a few delusion fanboys and ANet employees who feel otherwise.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

ndrangles.5183:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Vigor

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Implant

I have been confused ever since I found these two.

Honestly, from the thread title, those 2 were what I was expecting the OP to bring up.

Natural Vigor – Ranger class. (Wilderness Survival is a trait line for the ranger that focuses on defensive combat maneuvers.)
Adrenal_Implant – Engineer class. (Tools is a trait line for the engineer that focuses on use of utility kits and endurance.)

Both classes function differently, therefore similar/same traits bonues may differ with what level they are avilable at.

Death Reincarnated.3570:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

ndrangles.5183:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Vigor

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Implant

I have been confused ever since I found these two.

Honestly, from the thread title, those 2 were what I was expecting the OP to bring up.

Natural Vigor – Ranger class. (Wilderness Survival is a trait line for the ranger that focuses on defensive combat maneuvers.)
Adrenal_Implant – Engineer class. (Tools is a trait line for the engineer that focuses on use of utility kits and endurance.)

Both classes function differently, therefore similar/same traits bonues may differ with what level they are avilable at.

Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s an identical trait, except 1 is an adept minor and the other is its complete opposite, a grandmaster major.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s an identical trait, except 1 is an adept minor and the other is its complete opposite, a grandmaster major.

Theoretically, making the same effect easy to reach for one class, and quite hard to get for another class could be perfectly fine – if other aspects of those classes made up for it.

Engies though, just plain suck. That praised versatility is just not there at all, we have to heavily trait into kits to make them effective, which in turn means that there isn’t going to be much swapping.

Also, rng on skills is a horrible concept, which is why elixir x is probably one of the worst skills in the game. Luckily, all engineer elites are almost equally bad, so basically all the suckage is concentrated in a single class which makes it easier to avoid. o0

I actually wasn’t even aware of Natural Vigor vs. Adrenal Implant or I would have brought it up in the original post (I’m not very familiar with engies). As wintermute said, in theory this could be perfectly acceptable, but adept minor to grandmaster major seems extreme.

Balancing traits such as Vampiric Precision and Halting Strike would open up a lot of new build possibilites. As it stands, they are just so awful that they can’t work even if you focus your build on maximizing its effectiveness. In combination with toning down or modifying existing, possibly overpowered traits, I think we can avoid pigeonholing classes into certain builds.

To avoid using mug as an example again, I’ll use Greater Marks. Part of the issue is that Staff is almost required on any necro build (another problem altogether), but the other problem is that Greater Marks is NECESSARY if you even have staff equipped. The other major adept death magic traits don’t look bad on paper, but in reality cannot even compete with Greater Marks. What this results in is necromancers being “forced” in every build to grab this trait.

(So the issue is not just trait balance between professions, but also within the same profession).

Engineer! The reason our traits seems so bads, is that we only need one, ONE traits to make up for it.

Acidic Elixirs

We don’t need anything else!

For a profession that has a massive health pool and is known for big aoe farming, I actually think Vamp Precision is a good trait (concerns about stats/gear aside).

Seriously, it’s more functional than a single target damage-only 45s-cooldown trait.

Definitely better examples listed…

With this, I think the first priority really needs to be getting the traits to actually work as they’re advertised as working, before getting too concerned about which options are OP/UP.

We have so many options, you should be able to choose something that suits you with a little bit of thought. ANet will be able to see which ones aren’t good because no one selects them, and adjust accordingly. I’d wager their stats show Vamp Pre is fairly popular.

Vamp Precision (and the entire life siphoning trait line) is not popular…

Even in the “big aoe farming” scenario, Vamp precision offers nothing. Damage wise, with 50% crit, you are looking at an additional 0.3 of a bleed worth of damage (31 dmg per second) per target. Healing wise, assuming you are physically hitting the 5 targets constantly twice a second (nearly impossible), you offset 1.5 bleeds worth of damage on yourself. IN THE MOST IDEAL SITUATION POSSIBLE.

That is not a “good trait” by any stretch of the imagination, and is negligible even under ideal circumstances.

EDIT: But I agree, the many bugged traits probably do need priority.

just to make a final point about Adrenal Implant, Engis have at least 2 ways of getting a decent vigor uptime, each for only 20 points. Alchemy I + Firearms III for crit build, Alchemy I + Tools VI for kit build. Either way, you get an overall endurance regen comparable to AI while saving yourself 10 points and avoiding a bunch of useless Tools traits.

Don’t forget weapon recharge traits.

Look at Warrior:

Crack Shot — Rifle and harpoon gun shots pierce. Rifle and harpoon gun skills recharge 20% faster.
Merciless Hammer — Hammer damage is increased by 25% when a foe is disabled. Reduces cooldown of hammer skills by 20%.
Sundering Mace — Mace damage is increased by 10% when a foe is weakened. Reduces cooldown of mace skills by 20%.

… and Mesmer:

Cleansing Conflagration — Torch skills remove conditions. Reduces cooldowns of torch skills by 20%.
Duelist’s Discipline — Increases pistol attack range for you and your illusions. Reduces recharge of pistol skills by 20%.
Warden’s Feedback — Focus skills reflect projectiles. Reduces recharge of focus skills by 20%.

And then look at Guardian:

Focused Mastery — Focus skills recharge 20% faster.
Radiant Fire — Torch skills recharge 15% faster.

… and Necro:

Dagger Mastery — Dagger skills recharge 15% faster.
Staff Mastery — Staff skills recharge 20% faster.

I didn’t list all the traits, but every single one of the Warrior and Mesmer traits has an additional function on top of reducing cooldowns, while only some the traits for other classes do. I could understand if it was a Warrior-only thing (they are the masters of weapons, after all), but the other Soldier profession doesn’t get the same treatment, yet Mesmers do.

The massive disparity between class traits is one of the things that really annoys me. It makes classes feel unfinished, and yet instead of dealing with this, ArenaNet seem to simply prefer straight buffs/nerfs. I wonder how different the meta would be now if balancing traits and fixing bugs had’ve been the priority after launch.

I have also been rather underwhelmed with the relative power of many traits.

One of, if not the main draw to this game when I first purchased it, was the feeling that I could be whatever I wanted my character to be. I really thought the developers had worked very hard at ensuring there would be no such thing as a “pigeon-hole.” I would have plenty of viable options of traits to suit exactly what I wanted to do.

And while this is true in some degree, I feel there are many traits that could use a revisit, which would open up some more viable possibilities. There will always be min-maxing number crunchers who insist Build X is the build to play, and many people will. But I would like to see more of a focus on playing what I want, when I want, and still being relevant.

I have to agree that the traits in this game are all kinds of messed up. I seem to recall reading, or hearing back in beta, that the developers thought that the one of the strong points they had with the professions in this game, is that the trait system would make it easier for them to make balancing adjustments; and it is SORELY needed.

I really, firmly believe that 95% of the balance complaints about this game, in both pve and pvp, can be addressed with a good, solid pass over the traits of the professions. Most of the mechanics as a whole are good, and not TOO many of the abilities and weapons themselves are bad, but many classes have flat out horribad traits, either in power/function, or in fun/flavor. Mug is a prime example of Blizzard level of facepalm inducing questionable balancing; it is WAY too powerful for what it is and where it is. Then on the opposite end of the spectrum you have garbage grandmaster traits like Remorseless, Moment of Clarity, Bark Skin, Autodefense Bomb Dispenser, etc. Forget about overbalancing utility abilities (elites could certainly use a look) and weapon skills, and take a good hard look at traits.

I can think of worse things than dropping a pulsing blind field on being disabled :P