Guild Wars 2

with new specialization coming, it is obvious that class will be rebalance. I am all for changing to existing HOT and unspecialized spec to allow for class to have more variation and function. in fact it is a good thing that specialization will now be “specialized” because there is more then one option.

however the general mood I get while talking to people in the game after the pre-POF patch is they feel that their specialization is being nerf without any improvement in their function. I rationalized to them that POF isn’t out yet so the HOT spec are not yet properly rebalanced. but it seem that concern of POWER CREEP is growing, that we will not see diversity in build but rather the wholesale abandonment of old spec like when HOT was launch.

that would be unacceptable. the expansion is suppose to give us more option, so I do hope that the concern of people are wrong, that anet will make specialization competitive with each other then making it unspec < HOT < POF. because that would be a disappointment.

anet can get away with HOT powercreep with the argument that “future specialization will be balance and specialization are better then unspecialization” however it will not fly with POF since specialization already exist and there will be benchmark to uphold.

personally i feel that the new specialization will finally give anet the leg room to make class adjustment that make better sense, but at the same time it increases the difficulty as there are more thing to balance, I only hope anet took game balance seriously and see that this is indeed going to be trickier then HOT launch and allocated the correct amount of resources into it. even if not immediately, at least make more statement ensuring the playerbase that the game will be balance over the time so people first impression doesn’t straight up kill POF since the new specialization will be “revealed” next week.

I offer a wish of good luck to the staff and crew of anet. to manage both the design and PR side of game balancing.

Do you see how much QQ there are on the forums from everyone going “meh” over the new specs? Can you imagine how much there would be if it were no better than what we already have?

Funny thing is very few people have actually played the new elites so not sure how they can give an opinion on them. Just because a couple of bloggers played them does not mean that that’s all to them.

I think the reception of any balance patch will always be meet with the rock paper scissors thought process. No one like it when a build they have created no longer functions as it was built. Especially when you factor in people customizing gear to fit that build. So someone will always be impacted.

I think alt-o-holics are hit the most and most sheltered since in the lotto of impacts they will have some hits and misses. I fall in that boat. IMO the last patch was more of a bolster to core classes and it made them even more viable compared to elites.

There were some shifts in the elites to allow room for the new ones. I know some people see it as a scheme to encourage people to buy PoF but it didn’t feel that way to the people I game with. So no not concerned.

What ANet doesn’t want I believe is people to just feel, oh this is a copy of that, why did I pay for this. The key with elites is they should feel unique since they are effectively new classes so they need to have distinct feels. Now GW2 players will run into some issues if they main only certain classes since that class may morph and under PoF we will probably get some “thats not my class, what did they do”.

On the P2W front, there are many games that people can compare to that defines P2W for them. My example will remain the differences in free tanks to Premium tanks in WoT, I don’t see expansions in G2W as P2W in my book. I also use the bench mark of how many toons can I play with as core against elites in WvW and PvP and that’s still quite viable in my own experience. Will the new elites have an edge in the beginning, yes because until people play them people won’t know how to counter them. Will they need balancing, yes, balancing is a never ending game.

Anyway, 2 cents, good gaming. and is it 9/22 yet?|

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Do you see how much QQ there are on the forums from everyone going “meh” over the new specs? Can you imagine how much there would be if it were no better than what we already have?

And what does that tell you? Correct: There is something awfully wrong with the whole concept of elite specializations.

The meta is as rigid as an iceberg, and with each addition of a new elite spec the only thing that is changing is the one build that is considered proper for your profession. There is no flexibility in the way Anet has designed the elite specilization mechanic — and unfortunately, I don’t see them changing it anytime soon.

As with any game that introduces ‘new’ skills / classes / etc with an expansion, I fully expect the new elite specs to be OP to begin with. It happened in GW1, it happened with HoT, I fully expect it in PoF. Its a new ‘shiny’ to help sell the expansion.

With time, I am hopeful that the elite specs from hot and pof will be correctly balanced against each other to make both useful / viable in specific instances. Which is sort of the whole point of them. But it will take time, and frustration. In the meantime, sit back and enjoy the ride.

As far as I can tell, especially with the latest patch, is that Anet wants to make each Elite Spec their own sort of niche that complements the core class or give it new options the core class lacks. This why some of the gen 1 elite specs got nerfed in certain regards, so that they’re no longer straight up upgrades to the core class (see Tempest, for example). It’s kind of bad it took this long to get there, but at least we’re there now and PoF looks to add more elite specs that give new options to classes, rather than being a straight up upgrade again.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Do you see how much QQ there are on the forums from everyone going “meh” over the new specs? Can you imagine how much there would be if it were no better than what we already have?

That’s not the point. Elite specs should serve different functions in order to offer a choice. But take elementalist for example. Tempest is supposed to be a support option. So what did they do? Nerf the damage and offer nothing toward support. Is that how you go about offering a distinctly different option vs. weaver?

Nerf the damage on tempest? Fine. But give something back.

Ashantara.8731:

And what does that tell you? Correct: There is something awfully wrong with the whole concept of elite specializations.

The meta is as rigid as an iceberg, and with each addition of a new elite spec the only thing that is changing is the one build that is considered proper for your profession. There is no flexibility in the way Anet has designed the elite specilization mechanic — and unfortunately, I don’t see them changing it anytime soon.

Ah meta, how we hate that word. When is a class balanced, when they have multiple viable builds and people can’t agree that one is superior over another. Players are their own worst enemy. One class to rule them, if enough people are playing the same build then that is a sign its needs re-balanced and causes the most heart ache when that occurs. Elites allow for a framework where ANet can provide those multiple options since doing it in single elite would be considered OP by players playing against that class. If they had gone the route of just new classes then we would be in the same boat as people would migrate to newer things and then due to that fact alone people would say they are OP. This way a given class is always 2/3 the same regardless of which 3rd tree is taken, that’s a good way to keep some balance in place on its own. I liked being able to mix and match when we had 5 lines to choose from but see the logic in how they did it. I hope that ANet uses internal queries to compare build combinations across classes and then weighs and measures the mixes to target which classes and builds need adjusting even if those same queries impacts builds I have created. We should never end up with just 1 build else go situations. Good hunting!

How get ignored: Capslock and kitten.

I disagree with the points about how they will be OP as a selling point. I think thats blatantly wrong. If it were true, Mirage would out DPS Chrono and provide as much party support. It does one of those things, sacrificing the other.

Soulbeast will never have party the support of Druid.

Spellbreaker will be inferior to Berserker.

Herald will out perform Renegade

These are all for end game pve content and NOT discussing PvP.

Take the Scourge trait that replaces Deathly Chill. It has a 3 second cool down for a reason. It will be strong, but not game breaking strong like Deathly Chill currently is.

In the open world thats different, since it doesn’t matter what you are running.

Warcry.1596:

I disagree with the points about how they will be OP as a selling point. I think thats blatantly wrong. If it were true, Mirage would out DPS Chrono and provide as much party support. It does one of those things, sacrificing the other.

Soulbeast will never have party the support of Druid.

Spellbreaker will be inferior to Berserker.

Herald will out perform Renegade

These are all for end game pve content and NOT discussing PvP.

Take the Scourge trait that replaces Deathly Chill. It has a 3 second cool down for a reason. It will be strong, but not game breaking strong like Deathly Chill currently is.

In the open world thats different, since it doesn’t matter what you are running.

Whether or not they are OP intentionally is an arguable point. On one hand, if its intentional, its a selling point for anet. If it’s not intentional, that’s sort of a mark against the balance team, is it not?

Regardless, new classes have always been overly strong when Anet’s released them, in GW1 and in HoT. It’s hard to believe it will be any other way after a decade of the same things. Yes, they do get toned down, so perhaps its not intentional. But if they let it remain too strong for an extended period of time, its hard to not see it as an “intentional” selling point.

I play base necro, but love Druid. I play daredevil but don’t like chronomancer so I play base mesmer.

There isn’t a right or wrong way to play these classes, and the base classes are still fully functional.

Well, Anet sure picked a convenient time to ’Fix" HoT Specs. Only took them 2 years and also 2 months before the next expansion. No voice from them says it all. If they do not balance the new ones around the current ones within 3 months of release, you have your answer.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

AliamRationem.5172:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Do you see how much QQ there are on the forums from everyone going “meh” over the new specs? Can you imagine how much there would be if it were no better than what we already have?

That’s not the point. Elite specs should serve different functions in order to offer a choice. But take elementalist for example. Tempest is supposed to be a support option. So what did they do? Nerf the damage and offer nothing toward support. Is that how you go about offering a distinctly different option vs. weaver?

Nerf the damage on tempest? Fine. But give something back.

I never said they needed to be an increase in damage, I said they needed to be better than we already have.

You don’t get it. Tempest already had the support options but the DPS was so high that nobody ever used it (except WvW) and it was just a straight up increase to ele damage. If you can’t build support with a Tempest, uninstall pls.

It’s not that you can’t build for support with tempest. The issue is that nobody wants to bring support tempest because other classes provide better support without sacrificing as much to do so. The changes nerfed damage without altering that scenario.

Maybe I’m wrong? If so, I expect we’ll see tempest as a main support role. Is that happening so far? You tell me.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Regardless, new classes have always been overly strong when Anet’s released them, in GW1 and in HoT.

When HoT was released Revenant had crazy OP Coalescence of Ruin so WvW turned into groups of Revenants hitting each other with dozens of CoR and everyone dying instantly. Good old times

I expect similar stupidly strong skills appear in PoF, which will also be nerfed little later when every player starts to run around using only single skill.

Ashantara.8731:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Do you see how much QQ there are on the forums from everyone going “meh” over the new specs? Can you imagine how much there would be if it were no better than what we already have?

And what does that tell you? Correct: There is something awfully wrong with the whole concept of elite specializations.

On the contrary, it tells use merely that people complain on the forums.

lagrangewei.8516:

with new specialization coming, it is obvious that class will be rebalance. I am all for changing to existing HOT and unspecialized spec to allow for class to have more variation and function. in fact it is a good thing that specialization will now be “specialized” because there is more then one option.

however the general mood I get while talking to people in the game after the pre-POF patch is they feel that their specialization is being nerf without any improvement in their function. I rationalized to them that POF isn’t out yet so the HOT spec are not yet properly rebalanced. but it seem that concern of POWER CREEP is growing, that we will not see diversity in build but rather the wholesale abandonment of old spec like when HOT was launch.

that would be unacceptable. the expansion is suppose to give us more option, so I do hope that the concern of people are wrong, that anet will make specialization competitive with each other then making it unspec < HOT < POF. because that would be a disappointment.

anet can get away with HOT powercreep with the argument that “future specialization will be balance and specialization are better then unspecialization” however it will not fly with POF since specialization already exist and there will be benchmark to uphold.

personally i feel that the new specialization will finally give anet the leg room to make class adjustment that make better sense, but at the same time it increases the difficulty as there are more thing to balance, I only hope anet took game balance seriously and see that this is indeed going to be trickier then HOT launch and allocated the correct amount of resources into it. even if not immediately, at least make more statement ensuring the playerbase that the game will be balance over the time so people first impression doesn’t straight up kill POF since the new specialization will be “revealed” next week.

I offer a wish of good luck to the staff and crew of anet. to manage both the design and PR side of game balancing.

I’m not quite sure the core < HoT < PoF is what we’re heading towards, even if I acknowledge that core < HoT is/was a thing. I’m hesitating between present and past here, because last patch made me feel like a couple of my old core builds would now shine better than they used to. Yet, I haven’t tested it, so I won’t be categorical about it.

Now, from what I checked, the core point is the elite specs will be significantly different from each other. Like, Druid vs. Soulbeast : those can’t honestly fulfil the same role. That’s why I don’t think we can put a HoT < PoF sign reasonably, for a given profession. Then, for a given role that may be quite different. Yet if you consider the “healbot” role, for example, I’m not really sure what elite spec in PoF can fulfil that role better than a druid or a tempest would.

In my opinion, what I stated above is a good thing, because it provides diversity, and I really hope than a given profession can fulfil several roles, while a given role can also be fulfilled by several professions.

Then, there also is a deeper issue, which has been a core issue in GW2 since the beginning : the central role has always been “damage dealer”, power or condi, in most cases. Which means the noisiest echoes will be on the DPS topic…

OP, you’re panicking too much. They will 100% not give you pay to win kitten.
They will sell it to you for money See? Your worries were unfounded:)

Uhh, balance is hard, and A-Net is not the best at it.

If the classes are underpowered, people complain. If the classes are overpowered, people complain.

Unless they get everything JUST right, people WILL complain.

Much easier to do a best effort while giving us something cool and worrying about balance later.

This is what most games do. Some companies are better at the balancing bit, but the process is the same.

Also, it is extremely disingenuous to label this pay to win. With that mentality, nothing new that comes with the expansions can ever be better than base game. That is silly.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Unless they get everything JUST right, people WILL complain.

There did get it just right last year in pve. It lasted for around 3 months. Was ruined by a few balance changes for wvw.

I think the main concern they have is that some traits coupled with the new specs will be too strong, so they either got rid of them completely or dialed them back.

AliamRationem.5172:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

AliamRationem.5172:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Do you see how much QQ there are on the forums from everyone going “meh” over the new specs? Can you imagine how much there would be if it were no better than what we already have?

That’s not the point. Elite specs should serve different functions in order to offer a choice. But take elementalist for example. Tempest is supposed to be a support option. So what did they do? Nerf the damage and offer nothing toward support. Is that how you go about offering a distinctly different option vs. weaver?

Nerf the damage on tempest? Fine. But give something back.

I never said they needed to be an increase in damage, I said they needed to be better than we already have.

You don’t get it. Tempest already had the support options but the DPS was so high that nobody ever used it (except WvW) and it was just a straight up increase to ele damage. If you can’t build support with a Tempest, uninstall pls.

It’s not that you can’t build for support with tempest. The issue is that nobody wants to bring support tempest because other classes provide better support without sacrificing as much to do so. The changes nerfed damage without altering that scenario.

Maybe I’m wrong? If so, I expect we’ll see tempest as a main support role. Is that happening so far? You tell me.

If you are referring to PvE then sure, nobody needs support aside from a druid in raids.

WvW and PvP are, however, different. WvW in particular holds support Tempest pretty high. Auras are powerful support along with boons and healing.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Also, it is extremely disingenuous to label this pay to win. With that mentality, nothing new that comes with the expansions can ever be better than base game. That is silly.

there is nothing disingenuous . it is more disingenuous to sell how good a specialization is by simply making everything else bad. that is the point. as most in this topic has stated, what we want is build divesty. and there can be no divesty if some lazy prick aat anet decide to create kitten magnet build just to sell the game. that is the point.

we do want specialization. BUT we want them to be SPECIAL, not OP. it 2 different thing. I want to be able to heal with different class, tank with different class, have high mobilitary with different class. there are so many possibility and play style. and that requires options. if entire trait tree are nerf that there is no point playing them. then the expansion will not be adding anything to the game, it will only be substituting one meta for another.

basically ideally, what we want and need is distribution. 50% on POF, 30% on HOT, 20% stock. of course most people will play POF build just because it is fresh and new, but it should over the course of a year, stability at around 50% and not another wholesale replacement of build as we seen in HOT. because that would be borring as kitten.

right now you have player complaining certain class are dead or not viable for certain role by it in raid, world, pvp or wvw. the expansion can fix some of that, and it is also clear that anet has some idea about doing just that, but the feel is, anet appear to be taking away some of the uniqueness of the class just to give it new abilities. that defeat the purpose of having different classes. the balancing should be done in the specialization.

of course some are saying it is too premature to tell how it will go, but that is part of the reason why this is discuss now, because it hasn’t happened yet. gw2 died alot because of the mistake made in HOT launch, they address alot of it now but the damage is done. the point is, anet can’t afford another kitten up, this is literally the game’s “last chance”, it isn’t young anymore, it has already use “free to play” option to boost population, there is nothing else that can keep this game going other then to impress player at launch. it just the hard truth.

there are some good thing going for them, anet did learn alot from HOT and you can see there are some improvement to how they design the expansion, but is it enough? the fact is most of their content are going to be PVE and at least for the PVE, it feel better the HOT pre-launched. but really the only major input to wvw and pvp are going to be build options. this is why i choose it as a topic at this timing.

this is the direction to poke anet at and remind them where it matters. I prefer they prove me wrong, in fact that is what I want them to do.