Guild Wars 2

I think that they don’t. Instead, it seems to me like what the people asking for “progression” actually want is to simply feel like they’re better than the next guy. Every single time I see someone say something along the lines of “exotics are too easy!” or “you don’t even have to work for your gear!” this is what I think. They want progression in the sense that they want to pretend that they’re always better than those “casuals,” and “lazy” players that don’t actually like to constantly chase after a shiny purple carrot forever. They want to “work” for their gear so they can claim to have some sort of inherent superiority over the people that just want to play the game. I feel that these people use gear treadmills and raids as a bludgeon to beat the lesser filth out of their way.

Does anyone actually, legitimately enjoy constantly chasing after constantly improving gear? If so, why? What’s the point? I don’t want to hear that it somehow makes the content more challenging. Getting gear that allows you to deal 1000 more damage to an enemy that has 1000 more hit points is essentially useless, and you gain nothing beyond that sense of superiority. If you have a legitimate reason beyond this, I would love to hear it.

I think you’re on to something about gear progression being just as much about prestige as it is about character “progression”. I just don’t get why you assume everyone who thinks like that is some sort of elitist jerk.

I for one chase gear-rewards for prestige, rather than stats. I…and I assume most people, don’t really care what sort of stats their gear has. The role of a status symbol is what makes new gear appealing.

The same logic also applies to Legendaries although their acquisition thus far has been 99% dedication, 1% skill.

As to why? I guess it’s the same reason people buy Sports Cars despite a 70mph speed limit. Recognition…

Dee Jay.2460:

I think you’re on to something about gear progression being just as much about prestige as it is about character “progression”. I just don’t get why you assume everyone who thinks like that is some sort of elitist jerk.

I for one chase gear-rewards for prestige, rather than stats. I…and I assume most people, don’t really care what sort of stats their gear has. The role of a status symbol is what makes new gear appealing.

The same logic also applies to Legendaries although their acquisition thus far has been 99% dedication, 1% skill.

As to why? I guess it’s the same reason people buy Sports Cars despite a 70mph speed limit. Recognition…

I assume that because that’s what it seems like. Very rarely will I actually see a well thought out post detailing why someone would like to see more challenge and better rewards. 99% of the time it’s just people saying things along the lines of “it’s too easy.”

As far as your chasing of prestige, that’s originally what Legendary items were meant to be. But then people started asking for better stats. I’m genuinely curious as to why. You say “recognition” which is exactly my point. It’s the simple fact that you have something others don’t.

The irony is that there’s nothing remotely progressive about it.

In single-player RPGS, the point of increasing stats and armour is to have a system that regulates the pace of the game so you don’t blaze through it – it keeps you juggling smaller tasks as you advance the plot.

At the endgame of an MMORPG, the only purpose it serves is exactly as you say – it’s to make you feel better in some way than players around you.

Focksbot.6798:

In single-player RPGS, the point of increasing stats and armour is to have a system that regulates the pace of the game so you don’t blaze through it – it keeps you juggling smaller tasks as you advance the plot.

The thing the “gieb character progress!” people keep misunderstanding about this game is that leveling is the gating mechanism here, not gear. As long as you’re slapping on whatever random drops you find, you’ll be able to survive any zone at or below your level. Once you hit 80 it’s a short hop to the stat ceiling and suddenly world is now your oyster, go explore and do everything.

The fact that these people are already out of things to do is a combination of the game being brand new and not GW1+three expansions huge yet, and blazing through it all ridiculously fast. It’s already a TON of stuff to do and see.

Cool…thanks for your input.

My biggest issue was not that there was no progression, it was that loot was inherently meaningless. In all the time I’ve played, I have not seen a single exotic drop. Not one. While its great that there’s a gear ceiling, GW1 had the same thing, and yet it would actually happen that from chests, or even regular monster drops you could see a weapon or item that was on par with what you already have. This never happens in GW2 and as such all loot at 80 falls into the category of Vendor Trash, Crafting Mat, or Items you salvage.

Don’t give us new tiers of stuff that will make loot even more useless, make loot better.

I enjoy progression too. I just enjoy the kind where I’m getting better, not my character’s gear.

Togashi Jack.9531:

My biggest issue was not that there was no progression, it was that loot was inherently meaningless. In all the time I’ve played, I have not seen a single exotic drop. Not one. While its great that there’s a gear ceiling, GW1 had the same thing, and yet it would actually happen that from chests, or even regular monster drops you could see a weapon or item that was on par with what you already have. This never happens in GW2 and as such all loot at 80 falls into the category of Vendor Trash, Crafting Mat, or Items you salvage.

Don’t give us new tiers of stuff that will make loot even more useless, make loot better.

Max gear dropping quickly makes max gear worthless, especially with a market system like GW2 has. Loot is all relative.

I don’t understand – these type of threads are all relative to the new content. We have seen it all before. 8000 similar posts and still counting. However, why hasn’t this been moved? I really do believe it’s time for forum mod to move every gear progression related post to that single thread because at the moment, there is literally nothing that hasn’t been said about this topic.

Discussion is all fine and good. There’s no need to spam the forum and fill the front page with related thread when there’s a 8000 post thread that’s dedicated to ‘discuss’ this issue.

Leaving thread like like unmoved also makes me wonder why did other people’s topic gets moved in the first place? Forum Mod, please start moving things again.

Kript.3291:

I don’t understand – these type of threads are all relative to the new content. We have seen it all before. 8000 similar posts and still counting. However, why hasn’t this been moved? I really do believe it’s time for forum mod to move every gear progression related post to that single thread because at the moment, there is literally nothing that hasn’t been said about this topic.

Discussion is all fine and good. There’s no need to spam the forum and fill the front page with related thread when there’s a 8000 post thread that’s dedicated to ‘discuss’ this issue.

Leaving thread like like unmoved also makes me wonder why did other people’s topic gets moved in the first place? Forum Mod, please start moving things again.

It’s not relative to anything, and it’s not specifically related to the new patch. It’s a question about the general motivation behind this desire for “progression.”

Kript.3291:

Discussion is all fine and good. There’s no need to spam the forum and fill the front page with related thread when there’s a 8000 post thread that’s dedicated to ‘discuss’ this issue.

Be serious here, discussion can’t happen in a thread that big and moving that fast. It’s a garbage can to keep complaints out of sight and out of mind. Now that people have cooled off a little bit, let the non-kneejerk thoughts be heard.

Synitare.3176:

Kript.3291:

I don’t understand – these type of threads are all relative to the new content. We have seen it all before. 8000 similar posts and still counting. However, why hasn’t this been moved? I really do believe it’s time for forum mod to move every gear progression related post to that single thread because at the moment, there is literally nothing that hasn’t been said about this topic.

Discussion is all fine and good. There’s no need to spam the forum and fill the front page with related thread when there’s a 8000 post thread that’s dedicated to ‘discuss’ this issue.

Leaving thread like like unmoved also makes me wonder why did other people’s topic gets moved in the first place? Forum Mod, please start moving things again.

It’s not relative to anything, and it’s not specifically related to the new patch. It’s a question about the general motivation behind this desire for “progression.”

Which is brought on due to the new Ascended Gear.
And this sort of topic have been made so many times before it’s not even funny. Try read some of the 8000 posts that’s inside that thread, and you will realize how many people have asked the similar question as you, and use the same argument as you, and get the same response as you.

It’s stale. It’s not new. It’s not original. It’s been discussed before and they have all been moved to the merged thread. So why should this topic be an exception? It’s not really fair to those who have their topic moved to merged thread as well.

Haette.2701:

Kript.3291:

Discussion is all fine and good. There’s no need to spam the forum and fill the front page with related thread when there’s a 8000 post thread that’s dedicated to ‘discuss’ this issue.

Be serious here, discussion can’t happen in a thread that big and moving that fast. It’s a garbage can to keep complaints out of sight and out of mind. Now that people have cooled off a little bit, let the non-kneejerk thoughts be heard.

It’s not fair to those people who had their similar topic post moved there though is it? If this topic isn’t moved, then forum should move all similar topic back so they can be heard again, since the kneejerk action has gone. (according to you).

I want horizontal progression not vertical.

Kript.3291:

Haette.2701:

Kript.3291:

Discussion is all fine and good. There’s no need to spam the forum and fill the front page with related thread when there’s a 8000 post thread that’s dedicated to ‘discuss’ this issue.

Be serious here, discussion can’t happen in a thread that big and moving that fast. It’s a garbage can to keep complaints out of sight and out of mind. Now that people have cooled off a little bit, let the non-kneejerk thoughts be heard.

It’s not fair to those people who had their similar topic post moved there though is it? If this topic isn’t moved, then forum should move all similar topic back so they can be heard again, since the kneejerk action has gone. (according to you).

So you want them to remove any post that was even remotely related on the most obscure of levels to the patch? That’s pretty unrealistic. Sure, this question was ultimately inspired by the patch, but it has no direct relation to it. You can’t really expect a single thread to hold all discussion that has so much as a passing relation to a single, vague idea. If you have nothing meaningful to add to this, I invite you to remain in the thread you’re so fixated on.

I’d still like to see some insight into the topic at hand.

Completely agree with the OP. Another BS reason that people give about progression is that because it’s how RPGs have always been.

Yes! every true MMO player that pretend to be playing this game over the years wants.

morrolan.9608:

I want horizontal progression not vertical.

Exactly this!

More skills, weapons, races, classes. Not more gear tiers!

Kript.3291:

It’s not fair to those people who had their similar topic post moved there though is it? If this topic isn’t moved, then forum should move all similar topic back so they can be heard again, since the kneejerk action has gone. (according to you).

No it’s not fair to them, but that’s because I don’t think that should have happened in the first place.

I’m a reasonable guy, I understand wanting to keep your front page from becoming pure rage and creating a soundproof chamber for people to vent, but this is effectively censorship. Throwing all those threads in the pile destroyed any individual threads of discussion they may have had and turned it all into a broken mash of people raging mixed in with coherent posts nobody is ever going to see. Let them come out and talk once they’ve calmed down.

I don’t want gear progression, but I wouldn’t mind having new skills to spend skill points on or new weapon skills to slot in as an alternative to an existing weapon skill. Spending skill points in character progression seems more interesting for me.

I’ll tell you why people want progression. Because they want to enforce their pretend-superiority over other players. Because instead of doing stuff like the following:

They are the ones that are getting killed like scrubs. And they want to compensate/feel better by destroying what this game stands for (NO VERTICAL PROGRESSION).

They want to have the better stats and an advantage (aside from natural talent and knowledge/intelligence), just because they devote more time and are more srs-bsns to a GAME. A SILLY GAME.

I have seen this mentality time and again, these bandwagoners that go to every MMO expecting this, expecting their time to magically raise them above someone who spent less time/effort. It’s a crappy mentality IMO, it ruins every game it touches, and it needs to die off – anet needs to stop listening to these kinds of players.

I prefer gear progression because once you hit max level that’s all there is. I don’t really progress my character anymore once I hit max level, I sit at the same strength I am regardless of what I do. I’d like to see my character become more powerful, it’s satisfying knowing that. However, I am not against my character being acknowledged for accomplishments at max level and doing things in the world.. I just feel the latter is more satisfying to me.

Haette.2701:

Throwing all those threads in the pile destroyed any individual threads of discussion they may have had and turned it all into a broken mash of people raging mixed in with coherent posts nobody is ever going to see. Let them come out and talk once they’ve calmed down.

Whether intentional or not, the merged thread is nothing more than a place for good posts to rot.

Aevic.9675:

I prefer gear progression because once you hit max level that’s all there is. I don’t really progress my character anymore once I hit max level, I sit at the same strength I am regardless of what I do. I’d like to see my character become more powerful, it’s satisfying knowing that. However, I am not against my character being acknowledged for accomplishments at max level and doing things in the world.. I just feel the latter is more satisfying to me.

Devil’s advocate time…

Why do you need your character to become more powerful? Maybe you should work on the player behind the controls becoming more powerful? Maybe you should devote all that time and energy to growing some skill instead? To reacting faster, to reacting correctly, to being a better PLAYER, not to having a better character. Why do you want this inequality, where a new person gets roflstomped by a 2+yr vet, with no chance, and no tools offered to stand a chance?

Haette.2701:

Kript.3291:

It’s not fair to those people who had their similar topic post moved there though is it? If this topic isn’t moved, then forum should move all similar topic back so they can be heard again, since the kneejerk action has gone. (according to you).

No it’s not fair to them, but that’s because I don’t think that should have happened in the first place.

I’m a reasonable guy, I understand wanting to keep your front page from becoming pure rage and creating a soundproof chamber for people to vent, but this is effectively censorship. Throwing all those threads in the pile destroyed any individual threads of discussion they may have had and turned it all into a broken mash of people raging mixed in with coherent posts nobody is ever going to see. Let them come out and talk once they’ve calmed down.

When do they calm down?
There are 8000 post in the mega-thread.
Imagine what the forum would look if these aren’t moved.
There’s a difference between censorship and censoring trash. ( sorry for calling player discussion trash, but it kinda is when its been done for 8000 times and revolving the similar issue.)

For the past 4 days everyone has been talking about this.
Everyone is aware of the issue.
Everyone has opinions. They either like the new change, support gear progression, or they don’t like the new change, or they don’t support gear progression. And there are those who don’t really care, and those who wants to see the content first.
Everything is on repeat.

Everyone is trying to make new topic when it’s basically the same thing.
This is not even censorship anymore. This is clearing up the forums so player can discuss issue that is actually happening right now rather than what “MIGHT” happen in the future, or things that aren’t even relevant atm because right now there isn’t gear progression just yet.

Personally, I am on the fence about the changes. While I do value a sense of progression I would prefer it be tied to the character’s skills as opposed to the gear treadmill. One of the thoughts I had about this game is that as you level up it rarely feels like you get a “aha” moment when something unlocks. The skills you use are by in large the same skills you use from level 30 on, yes the functionality may change some from traits but at the core the skills are all the same. I don’t have the time to devote to a dedicated team for grinding out dungeons and keeping up with the Jones. I do however wish for there to be something to work towards once you hit 80 besides just easily gotten exotics and map completion.

Aevic.9675:

I prefer gear progression because once you hit max level that’s all there is. I don’t really progress my character anymore once I hit max level, I sit at the same strength I am regardless of what I do. I’d like to see my character become more powerful, it’s satisfying knowing that. However, I am not against my character being acknowledged for accomplishments at max level and doing things in the world.. I just feel the latter is more satisfying to me.

This is actually a fair point. I can see the appeal in knowing your character can get stronger, but does it have to be in the form of gear upgrades? And again, does that strength actually mean anything when the enemies increase in strength at the exact same rate? It seems like all you would get out of it is seeing slightly larger numbers, even though those numbers are essentially just fluff.

Would you be satisfied if the increase in power was only active in a specific dungeon? What about lateral progression, where your character still evolves and improves, but not in sheer power? Accomplished by new skills, new ways to build your character, new item models to further customize the looks, etc.

For me, seeing the character itself get better does little for me. I prefer to become better at handling that character, finding new ways to defeat my enemies, getting those new skills to play with.

If the game was about progressing and building a character, like in Ragnarok Online for example, then progression would be great.
But now it’s about endgame and progression is only a waste of time that everyone want to go through as quick as possible to go reach end game.

Level and armor tier are completely useless in game like GW2. They should concentrate into making the game fun and more challenging instead of adding meaningless progression that everyone want to skip.

Haishao.6851:

If the game was about progressing and building a character, like in Ragnarok Online for example, then progression would be great.
But now it’s about endgame and progression is only a waste of time that everyone want to go through as quick as possible to go reach end game.

Level and armor tier are completely useless in game like GW2. They should concentrate into making the game fun and more challenging instead of adding meaningless progression that everyone want to skip.

^ This. Add more bosses in PvE, more challenging areas, or add difficulty levels (hard mode in gw1). Add more ways to kill and be killed in WvW/sPvP, add more maps. And add more stat prefixes to WvW badge gear?

But no, you have to add a gear treadmill instead. Such lazy designers, what happened to the GW1 designers and their no-vertical-progression philosophy? That was 1 of a kind in the world of MMOs, and sadly still is.

You don’t need to force a REASON for players to experience new content or come back to the old. If they don’t want to experience content because they’re already ‘maxed out’, then maybe they’re just doomed not to ever have fun anyway.

Why this boring/lame gear grind forced upon everyone else, just because those other sad/doomed players are hopelessly trying to find a REASON to have fun instead of HAVING fun?

I don’t want to be forced to do a PvE dungeon just to remain competitive/viable in WvW. So many players that have several 80 toons all with exos gear have quit because of this patch’s ascended BS.

Fortuna.7259:

Togashi Jack.9531:

My biggest issue was not that there was no progression, it was that loot was inherently meaningless. In all the time I’ve played, I have not seen a single exotic drop. Not one. While its great that there’s a gear ceiling, GW1 had the same thing, and yet it would actually happen that from chests, or even regular monster drops you could see a weapon or item that was on par with what you already have. This never happens in GW2 and as such all loot at 80 falls into the category of Vendor Trash, Crafting Mat, or Items you salvage.

Don’t give us new tiers of stuff that will make loot even more useless, make loot better.

Max gear dropping quickly makes max gear worthless, especially with a market system like GW2 has. Loot is all relative.

And why should max gear not be worthless? This game was not supposed to be about gear acquisition, aside from purely cosmetic changes so your dude would be holding and wearing stuff you thought looked cool.

To me, max gear being worthless is actually priceless. Max gear being “worth something” means “it’s hard to get” and “it’s hard to get” NEVER means “hard as in difficult”, it only ever means “hard as in time-consuming”.
Because it’s easy to make something time-consuming, but hard to make something difficult — and if you DARE make anything difficult, that would take some cleverness to overcome, DEAR GOD THE TEARS.
Which of course, is understandable — gear treadmill people don’t want to be challenged by anything other than the RNG that determines if they get loot or not, and if they’ve won that, they DESERVE to win at killing the next boss.

100% dumb gameplay, that right there.

Why can’t “character progression” be all about unlocking more skills? That can continue past 80 and nobody will ever complain about it because it’s actually interesting and doesn’t gate you because you can unlock whichever ones you want at any time. Why does it always have to be about gear and boring kitten numbers?

Why does it even have to be character progression? Why not player skill progression? Why not have harder and more complex stuff to challenge people who beat the rest?

I did feel like I had progression. I hit 80 and I was still completing the map. I was still collecting different armour sets (not just the one) I was still collecting my the skins I wanted and transmuting them. I was still collecting dyes and filling my collection (a much more difficult task when you have several alts). I have no idea why players like me were abandoned with the coming patch, I thought the game was made for players like me.

Now it’s becoming more difficult for me to progress. I need to buy more transmutation stones to upgrade my exotics to ascendant (I thought it was a decent investment before because exotic was the best in slot, not the goal posts have been moved after I’ve spent to money to transmute them). The collecting dungeon skins is also becoming less valuable. All of them will require transmutation stones in the future. None of them will be best in slot once ascendant is released so I feel very little compulsion to farm them any more because their value has been decreased greatly.

To me, this is removing progression from the game for me. I wasn’t compelled at all to get a legendary because it’s too much work. Too much work for so little reward. The skins are cool but I’m not about all the grind required for one. I’d rather kit out my alts and have a much broader play experience with the lower cieling cap for best in slot the game currently has. Increasing the difficulty, time and grind required to obtain best in slot has pushed me away from doing it at all. I may as well just settle for masterwork greens rather than chase the ever increase progression train.

Without ascendant I was occupied with several different kinds of the progression for my characters and my account. I had no trouble finding things to do or the incentive to do them. With this new “progression” I don’t feel like I have any incentive to do it at all. People in my guild have stopped running dungeons because exotics will no longer be best in slot (even if that day is months away, to a lot of people, obtaining an exotic set was no small feat).

When Diablo 2 announced the upcoming reset of the ladder (and the entire ladder economy) all trading stopped, item values plumeted and the game became static. The reset took months longer than expected and the entire time the economy was stuck in stasis. That’s how I feel about exotics now. Why bother farming exotics if they are going to be redundant soon? Why not just bide my time (and I admit we don’t know how long it will be, it will probably be many months which will limit this effect) and wait for ascendant? Progression has halted for a lot of people because of this.

Progression exists in the game in so many different meaningful ways. This old idea they are implementing is not progression, it’s a disincentive for me and players like me to keep playing the way we have been playing (or play at all). It killed progression.

My main is a ranger. The reason I stopped playing him is because much of the lvl 80 content is still broken. Dungeons are still very buggy, Orr is a mess (and the reward systems at end game are really bad outside of dungeon tokens) and the ranger class needs a serious rebalance. My guardian is just much more fun. One of the things I’m becoming concerned about is playing in different specs and styles when gear is becoming harder and harder to obtain. It was progression to collect a glass cannon set, a durable melee set, a support set etc. Now there is very little value in putting in all of that work because those sets are going to become redundant. I’m going to have to do it all over again. I was occupied before, I had plenty to do, in order to give me more to do they… decide to make what I’ve done (and was going to continue to do) redundant. This makes me want to do it less, and if it’s becoming more difficult to gear up best in slot with this new tier, I’ll probably just get one set and never bother with multiple sets, reducing the range of play styles I will play, reducing satisfaction with my character.

Make “progression” too much work and many of us won’t even bother.

you thought wrong. I want progression. I want dungeons that require a challenge (after they fix the whole dungeon system). I want something to work towards and I want to see my character change.

If this was a FPS i wouldn’t care because those games revolve around the fun of simply playing, but people aren’t entertained for long in MMOs with a similar design. the point of an MMO is that you never complete it or if you do, it’s right before the next patch.

I’m done nearly everything I care to do after about 250h. i had 250 DAYS in another MMO and i was still years away from getting everything.

Your post title is very misleading… You should rename it “item” progression. I for one want to progress… in life and in my games. I’ve played “that other MMO” game for many years and I enjoyed my time there. I just got tired of chasing a moving target. Even so, I still don’t fault Anet for what they’re doing. I’m willing to give them a chance. If ascended gear works, great. If it doesn’t, I hope they change it.

Now if you don’t want any progression at all… I can’t help you. My only advise would be to stop playing mmorpgs.

vespers.1759:

the point of an MMO is that you never complete it or if you do, it’s right before the next patch.

I’m sorry for your loss.

I want cool looking gear. That is all I played for while raiding In wow for years and every other mmo I have played. If they want to ad higher stats to it what ever I don’t care as long as I can continue to get everything in the game with a 5 man group.

Stats on gear does not equate to character progression because if that was the case your character would reset every new tier negating all your pseudo progression. The only viable progression metric in the game is the achievement system. This is just a "kitten block " mechanism nothing more.

JSmooth.7654:

Your post title is very misleading… You should rename it “item” progression. I for one want to progress… in life and in my games. I’ve played “that other MMO” game for many years and I enjoyed my time there. I just got tired of chasing a moving target. Even so, I still don’t fault Anet for what they’re doing. I’m willing to give them a chance. If ascended gear works, great. If it doesn’t, I hope they change it.

Now if you don’t want any progression at all… I can’t help you. My only advise would be to stop playing mmorpgs.

There’s a character limit, and quoting progression gets the point across. It’s also not limited to items alone. It’s the idea of vertical progression in general.

vespers.1759:

If this was a FPS i wouldn’t care because those games revolve around the fun of simply playing, but people aren’t entertained for long in MMOs with a similar design. the point of an MMO is that you never complete it or if you do, it’s right before the next patch.

Dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. There’s no reason we can’t play an MMO for fun just as we play an FPS for fun. No reason whatsoever outside chuckleheads like you who just cry and cry when something doesn’t conform to your expectations.

There’s plenty of other games living off WoW’s scraps. GW2 should not be one of them, but it seems they’ve decided that’s the best course, so we’re getting gear progression.

Not with a boom but a whisper — it might only be a few stats here and there now, but it’s the start. Once you start down the course of mudflation, there’s really almost no way to stop it. It simply continues. There’s 30 years of online RPG gaming to back that up.

vespers.1759:

If this was a FPS i wouldn’t care because those games revolve around the fun of simply playing, but people aren’t entertained for long in MMOs with a similar design. the point of an MMO is that you never complete it or if you do, it’s right before the next patch.

Am I doing something wrong? The greatest thing about playing GW2 is that I am playing it just for fun, exactly as I would play an FPS. The greatest thing about GW2 is that I can play it this way because there is no gear creep or mudflation. The best thing Anet could have done was continue pumping out dungeons with cool new skins because those skins are worn like a badge of honour. They can continue making the content harder and harder without requiring gear advancement to progress through it. The difficulty of their dungeons has not even reached their potential yet.

I think the disconnect with adding this new tier comes from the Manifesto, and the belief that GW2 would be “different” than other MMOs.

And the fact that GW1, while not really an MMO, played like one for a lot of people, and WAS different from all other MMOs, and people loved it for being that way.

I would like “progression”, yes. But not a gear progression.

I, like many others, I assume, played a LOT of WoW (as well as AC1, EQ2, FFXI all pretty long-termish, and very short-term playing of Vanguard, Warhammer, TOR and Rift).

The thing about every single one of those games released after WoW is that they are, basically, WoW clones. EQ2 even drastically changed itself not long after it launched to copy WoW.

GW1 never made an attempt to mimic WoW, and that’s why I believe more people think fondly of GW1 than any of EQ2, Vanguard, WAR or TOR. I’m not saying there aren’t people who don’t love those 4 games, but I’m willing to bet many more people love(d) GW1 than any of them. Rift is a bit different in that it seems to have cloned WoW the “best”.

But the one thing that those failed games (I do not include AC1 or FFXI as failed, nor Rift) did was completely try to copy WoW and not do a very good job of it. They all had the gear treadmill that WoW has, and while I think many who tried them wanted something different, the taste they all left was “clone of WoW, but just not as good or as fun”, and so people left.

With GW2 the promise was that it WOULD be different than WoW – and it is (was?).

I looked at my stats for my 2 “mains” during LK (my most intense time of playing WoW). I have FIFTY-SEVEN kills across both toons (33 and 24 respectively) of the first 4 fights in ICC (normal and heroic combined – 10 man and 25 man combined).

That is, at minimum, 15 weeks of killing the same bosses (assuming 4 kills per week, which simply didn’t happen because I didn’t start on my druid until I had a 25 LK kill on my shaman, and obviously didn’t start on heroics until I had a clear on normal).

I do not EVER want to do that again in any MMO (I have not been subscribed to WoW in over a year, and my TOR time lasted 1 free and 1 paid month – long enough to know it is/was WoW with lightsabers).

The progression I want is new and more challenging events/encounters/playstyles and the like.

Maybe I’m in the minority here, but that’s pretty much what Arena Net promised, in general terms.

Over time, I was expecting new encounters, mini-games, “stuff to do”, but not “stuff to repeatedly do over and over and over, regardless if it was fun, to get gear to do more stuff over and over and over”.

I guess, yes, I want progression. But I’d like the progression to challenge ME, not my ability to be able to mindlessly farm something to get better gear.

Maybe ArenaNet can’t deliver that – I don’t know. Ascended gear does NOT appear to be any sort of progression that I am at all interested in, though.

At this point I would have thought their priority should be making Orr much less hated by tweaking the mobs, and making all non-Orr zones desirable for 80’s to go to by having the rewards on par with Orr. Oh, and fixing the many events (in Orr especially) that routinely don’t work. Not adding in a progression and gating that they said before launch they were not going to have.

And as for progression – while I like the removal of the Trinity (even as a lifelong healer main/tank alt), the encounters in GW2 aren’t really even up to par with 5 man normal mode WoW dungeons (the simplest boss encounters in that game) in terms of complexity and challenge.

Progress the game by making interesting and challenging encounters that challenge the player – not by adding a new tier of gear that challenge the player’s gear and ability to tediously repeat relatively simple yet time consuming tasks.

Everyone is complaining for ‘horizontal’ progression, but I don’t think you guys understand what that means.

New class? Sure, enjoy playing a Bard from 1-80, in content you’ve already done (perhaps several times).
New race? Sure, enjoy playing a profession you’ve most likely already played, with a pointless storyline that only lasts 25~ levels to suit.

At least gear progression gives you something to work towards, as the race/profession of your choice (and if not, why play?) to improve yourself. How can you experience a game if you intend on just re-rolling all the time with new content?

I want progression of some sort. ArenaNet really shot itself in the foot with the “we want everyone to be able to experience all content” mindset. It simply resulted in content being too easy. This game badly needs some sort of content gating – either gear-based, or skill-based. When I bought this game, I assumed there will be skill-based gating, like in, say, Dark Souls (although perhaps less extreme) – as in, it would take a lot of skill for players to be able to complete certain parts of the PvE part of the game, and have them rewarded accordingly with cosmetics. Instead, we got mindless zerging, graveyard rushing, and the rewarding of grind, not skill. I see a lot of people saying “This game’s not about gear, it’s about skill! Go back to WoW if you don’t have skill!”. People love to throw the word “skill” around when describing this game, but the sad truth is that PvE doesn’t take any skill at all.

Helterskelter.8490:

Everyone is complaining for ‘horizontal’ progression, but I don’t think you guys understand what that means.

New class? Sure, enjoy playing a Bard from 1-80, in content you’ve already done (perhaps several times).
New race? Sure, enjoy playing a profession you’ve most likely already played, with a pointless storyline that only lasts 25~ levels to suit.

At least gear progression gives you something to work towards, as the race/profession of your choice (and if not, why play?) to improve yourself. How can you experience a game if you intend on just re-rolling all the time with new content?

Adding a new dungeon, a new zone, new quests, skins, skills, classes, and races, those are all horizontal progression. It’s new stuff to see and do and experience. This new Diablo-esque dungeon is horizontal progression, and it’s really cool! I love pretty much everything about it except Agony Resistance.

Rolling a new class IS experiencing more content. With a new class or race, I come out the other end of my playtime with a new class to play, a new playstyle, and another complete character to call my own. It’s not just the world itself, you know. My choices determined what they look like and how they play. Over time, more options will become available and everyone will find something new they like enough to work towards. And if not? You already paid, no need to pay more until you feel like something has come along that adds that much more value to your purchase.

With better gear or higher levels, I get bigger numbers. To combat the enemies’ bigger numbers. And everybody else is getting the same bigger numbers, so you aren’t distinguishing yourself or working towards anything at all, you’re just playing catch-up. Nothing is new or unique about your bigger numbers. The only thing they do is keep you from playing certain sections of the game too quickly. We have enough of that in leveling.

Why not just cut out all the bullkitten before it gets out of hand in the first place?

The infusion slot for PvE progression doesn’t bother me in the least. The extra stats that unbalance WvW do.

I would like vertical progression, I never minded it. It gives me a snese of I’m alwasy gettting strong as a reward for defeating the bad guys, growing to fight the bigger bad guys. It makes the game more emersive to me and gives a good solid track to progress through. ( i dont bother with dungeons that I dont like the armor skins of theres no point)