Guild Wars 2

Hi,

Before I start, this thread is not a complaint thread or anything like that. It is merely a thread to discuss how you feel about the control methods used in GW2 and whether you feel they can be improved.

Before I start let me just say that, I’ve been playing Guild Wars 2 since BWE1 and have not had an issue with the controls at all. But then, I use a gaming mouse with a hundred and one buttons on the side, and due to this using all my skills is a walk in the park. However, I recently introduced a friend of mine to the game and was quite taken aback at how unwieldy he found the game. When I stepped back and actually looked at the situation, I was surprised by how right he was. Let me explain.

My friend does not come from an MMO background. He plays games like diablo, starcraft and the occasional FPS game. In all the games we play together, the only thing you need to be able to play the game is a mouse with 2 buttons on it (and 4 keys for movement, in the case of the FPS games). Even in FPS games you can swap between weapons at a scroll of the mousewheel.

The first thing he said to me was “How do I look around?”. The moment he said it I realised how strange it was that we need to press a mouse button just to look around, when really, in all non-MMO third person & first person games, the looking around part should be done simply by moving the mouse. No pressing of buttons, it just happens. Again, this is not a complaint and I am not suggesting that GW2 is doing things the wrong way. I have used the MMO method for years and I am ok with it. But for my friend it was very alien, and I can see his point that it seems an unnecessary step to have to make.

The next thing he asked me was why can he not attack with the mouse buttons? Having played Oblivion and Skyrim I can see why he would ask this, but I did agree with him that this would make it feel a lot more action oriented and would flow a lot better. Especially for players who are coming from a non-MMO background.

I guess what I am creating this thread for is to find out what other players think about this. This is primarily aimed at players who have not played MMO’s before (as this was a demographic that Anet was aiming to try and entice into the game), but I see no harm in MMO veterans sharing their opinions also. So, do you feel the control systems are the best they can be in GW2? Do you find them unwieldy like my friend? How would you like to see them improved?

Personally, I have got used to them now, so I do not need them changed, but in the spirit of making the game more user friendly for everyone, I would like to see some improvements to the control system. The main change I would like to see is to have the option to have mouse look permanently on, so no mouse buttons needed. Another option I’d like to see, if the first option was implemented, would be the ability to remap the mouse buttons. So you could, for example, remap mouse 1 to your auto attack and mouse 2 to jump or dodge. I feel these changes would go a long way to help non-MMO players settle down into the game and would at the same time give a more FPS feel to the combat.

Both of the above suggestions would be options of course, and not forced on you in any way. So if you preferred the current system then you should be able to continue using it. Anyway, what are your thoughts? And, if possible, please keep the discussion constructive and polite, so that the devs have an easier time reading it. Thanks.

As you alluded to, this guy is not familiar with MMOs and such he’s repulsive to the controls.

GW2 controls are no different than any other MMO. This issue doesn’t have to do with GW2 alone. Heck, it’s not even an issue.

It’s just a different type of game that he needs to adjust to. There is no alternative due to the nature and complexity of MMO games compared to FPS’.

You are right that GW2 is another MMO and as such it would make sense to have similar controls. But as I pointed out briefly in my opening post, Anet wanted to draw in players who did not normally play this genre of games.

To quote Anet:
“If you don’t play MMO’s you’ll really want to play Guild Wars 2”.

With this in mind, I do not think it is unrealistic to ask for improvements, to make the game easier to play for these not-so-mmo players. Making a game appeal to a wide range of players is not limited to the content, the controls will play a vital role in granting access to that content.

Also, as I stated, I do not think it is an issue either. I merely feel some improvements could be made to make the game more accessible.

The controls may be no different from other MMOs, but the gameplay of this and other of the new, more actiony MMOs is dramatically different, and I believe poorly suited to the existing control scheme. I am often holding down 2 keys to strafe around enemies while holding down the right mouse button to steer, and somehow stretching with the remaining fingers of my left hand to hit any keys I may need.

This problem doesn’t show up in other games because using skills plants you in place. You move, then act. At least the game generally has the good sense to turn your character to face a target. Others of this new generation of MMO aren’t so kind.

I can’t propose a good solution to this, as it’s kinda built into the mechanics itself. There are just too many buttons that need to be pushed, and you can’t afford to stop moving to do it.

That would be like me jumping into an FPS and complaining that I cant use number keys to attack.

Sounds like he wanted the same sort of controls found in Tera. The controls are somewhat fun, but can also be a pain. You use the mouse to look around and click to cast, but then if you actually want your mouse cursor you have to press ALT. I find the GW2 method to be better personally.

First MMO, controls were no problem, right from the beginning.

The Talcmaster.7391:

The controls may be no different from other MMOs, but the gameplay of this and other of the new, more actiony MMOs is dramatically different, and I believe poorly suited to the existing control scheme. I am often holding down 2 keys to strafe around enemies while holding down the right mouse button to steer, and somehow stretching with the remaining fingers of my left hand to hit any keys I may need.

This problem doesn’t show up in other games because using skills plants you in place. You move, then act. At least the game generally has the good sense to turn your character to face a target. Others of this new generation of MMO aren’t so kind.

I can’t propose a good solution to this, as it’s kinda built into the mechanics itself. There are just too many buttons that need to be pushed, and you can’t afford to stop moving to do it.

I can understand that. I’m not sure what the solution is for this though (other than buying a mouse with lots of buttons on). It is an side effect of MMO’s unfortunately.

However, there is one method of using multiple skills with very few keys. It is a method used in both Black & White and Sacrifice. It is basically a gesture system, whereby you hold a button and move the cursor that appears in a certain pattern to select from various options. So for example, you could have a skill wheel which you could use to quickly select skills using 1 button and the mouse. The only downside to this is the speed at which you could use your skills. But if it was an option, it could have the potential to make the game easier to play for some players, if done right.

AesirValkyr.7418:

That would be like me jumping into an FPS and complaining that I cant use number keys to attack.

That’s not strictly true, as most FPS games offer you the ability to remap your attack buttons. So you could very well have your primary attack remapped to the number 1 button if you wanted. But that is not the point of this thread. We are not here to complain about the current system, we are here to offer ideas and suggestions on improving it. I’m not saying we should have controls like an FPS game, I’m saying we should have more options and tools to help us set the controls to our liking.

Anet want this game to appeal to a wide audience and offering more control options is one way to do that. The more players are able to customize the controls to their liking the more player will stick with the game and enjoy it more. I cannot see my friend staying with the game, using the current control system.

I’m not quite sure; but I think you should actually be able to map skill 1 to your mousebutton.

It’s wrong that you can play FPS-games with only 4 keys + mouse. Well, you can. But you can also play GW2 with 4 (well… 5) keys haha. Let’s see… four keys for movement, a key to jump, a key to crouch/lay down, a key to sprint, a key for grenades, a key to activate the scope, a key to reload ammo, a key to change between fire-frequency, a key to use nightvision goggles or maybe binoculars, a key to interact… I’m sure there can be more; depending on the game.

Oh and yes, I find the controls of GW2 to be quite easy. Though I have remapped a few things (the most important being dodge to mouse 3 (wheel)). I’ve played some Splinter Cell games, a bit of Raven Shield and also Battlefield 2 on my computer (oh, and Far Cry 3 too; but that was after I started with GW2). The only MMORPG I’ve played before was Ragnarok Online, which is quite different from GW2. Of course you could argue that you (can) actually use 36 keys there just for skills, consumables and fast equipment-changes… but it’s still much more different from GW2 than FPS-games are.

The controls in GW2 are fine. If one finds that they aren’t to their liking, then they should remap them to their preference. Problem solved.

OP, what you are saying sound like this:

I have a friend that has only driven cars, the other day I showed him my bicycle, he tried the bicycle but found the controls strange, he told me how difficult (and or) strange was to pedal instead of hitting the gas pedal.
If bicycle manufacturers wanted more business why dont they make the controls easier?

Yeah its true many people that come to games like this, or pc games in general find the controls hard or strange, but in learning and adapting comes our human ingenuity, some people have trouble moving around with the wasd keys, others have trouble moving around with the mouse, GW2 allows you to bind and map your keys to whatever you like, your friend Op, will just have to cope and learn new skillsets, or bind them to a gamepad or something.

the problem with mouselook is that in games like this you need to have a cursor active, there are just too many things to click and move and drag, having a modifier active to do that would be a solution but then again that just makes another keypress added to the complexity, holding M2 to move the camera isnt that hard to learn or adapt.

the controls are fine, they need to be complex, this is a complex game, this is a complex genre, not all games are for everyone.

I tried to help a new player the other day because I noticed that they were moving very awkwardly. They only ran in straight lines and had to stop moving every time they wanted to change directions, turn, and then move in another straight line. They were doing terrible in combat because they couldn’t fight and move at the same time. It seemed like they were playing entirely with the keyboard and I kept telling them to use the mouse, but gave up because I did not want to be pushing things they didn’t want to do. If the OP’s friend doesn’t want to learn how to control things in an MMO, then MMOs are probably not for him.

TheProphetOmega.3596:

OP, what you are saying sound like this:

I have a friend that has only driven cars, the other day I showed him my bicycle, he tried the bicycle but found the controls strange, he told me how difficult (and or) strange was to pedal instead of hitting the gas pedal.
If bicycle manufacturers wanted more business why dont they make the controls easier?

Yeah its true many people that come to games like this, or pc games in general find the controls hard or strange, but in learning and adapting comes our human ingenuity, some people have trouble moving around with the wasd keys, others have trouble moving around with the mouse, GW2 allows you to bind and map your keys to whatever you like, your friend Op, will just have to cope and learn new skillsets, or bind them to a gamepad or something.

the problem with mouselook is that in games like this you need to have a cursor active, there are just too many things to click and move and drag, having a modifier active to do that would be a solution but then again that just makes another keypress added to the complexity, holding M2 to move the camera isnt that hard to learn or adapt.

the controls are fine, they need to be complex, this is a complex game, this is a complex genre, not all games are for everyone.

You make a good point Prophet, and I agree, my friend does need to adapt and remap keys. But I don’t agree with your analogy, which to me seems more like comparing a third person game to an isometric game, both have very different steering controls, but both are games. I would liken it more to the difference between driving a manual car and an automatic, both are cars (third person games) but one has a more complex control system. The consumer has the option to choose the controls that suit them.

I still feel having the option to at least have mouselook active without holding a button, would go a long way to help some players and may even make the game feel better for players that are used to the current controls. As to the need for the cursor, maybe while auto-look is active you could access the cursor by holding the right mouse button? Or maybe a toggle would be a better option, to toggle between cursor mode and look mode.

I don’t think adding either of these options would break the game, nor do I think it would be very dificult to implement, or am I wrong here?

I’ve played a lot of mmos, so the controls are very easy for me. If anything it is easier than most because of so few keybinds.

No you are not wrong my friend, diversity is the way of life, if everyone thought the same, where would we be?

I completely agree with you, the more we can customize the better, but for the time being, this is what we have got, I believe there could be more important matters to add or fix before more control options are available, like the targeting issues we now have.

Anyhow , hopefully your friend takes the time to learn and find out all the stuff this game has to offer!
cheers!

Tell him to get a Razer Nostromo and a Razer Hex – both make it easier to play.

I personally use a n52te (cheap nowadays) and a regular mouse.

Then the keyboard is meant for typing.

I would say GW2 is rather fluid in its controls compared to other MMOs.

I have to compare it to WoW. In WoW I can’t function properly without my Nostromo and 24+ keybinds (12 + shift modifier). Add in the ridiculous amount of UI elements to track from raid frames to DBM and you have this insane rat’s next of an interface. And my setup is probably minimal compared to the average WoW player.

GW2 is a sunny day on the beach by comparison. I’m a huge fan of the adage “less is more.” Even so, GW2 easily has more controls to worry about than your average FPS, RTS, or AARPG.

Never had a problem… infact I can reach the goggles in the Aether JP now on every race from Asura up to Norn & Charr. …sometimes in 2 falls or less.

Then again… I really cut my peripheral-management teeth in PC gaming on Mechwarrior2 & Quake Mods that had like 8 extra weapons & multifunctions tacked on. Plus I use a 9-button mouse, and a Programmable Nostromo Pad (with whatever tier of Macros Gaile has told us in the past was acceptable without constituting botting) …so I’m probably off towards one of the more extreme ends in this spectrum

It’s not just MMOs. Most PC RPGs use a similar system. Some single-player games can have fewer keys because you can pause during combat (or any other time) and then use on-screen menus to access different spells and abilities, but if anything that’s a more awkward system and most games also let you add things to a quick cast bar and then assign a keyboard short-cut.

I play a lot of different games and I wouldn’t say one system is universally better than the others. an RTS or FPS control system wouldn’t work in this game any more than a permanent first-person or top-down view would because you need to do different things with those controls.

But the controls in GW2 are actually very flexible, especially if you have a mouse that lets you program buttons. You can actually set up all the things you want to do.

Although some of them might not be as good as you think. I’ve got one of my mouse buttons set to toggle right click, so I push it and then I can look around just by moving the mouse. It works perfectly but I don’t use it as much as I expected because it’s actually really annoying to not have the cursor. It means I can’t ground-target skills, or use my inventory or mail, or the TP or click on the chat window…I never realised how many things I was clicking on whilst running around until I couldn’t do them any more. Of course I can just push the button and switch back to ‘normal’ mode but if it wasn’t for the fact that holding the button down so much hurt my hand I’d say holding right click to move the camera is by far the better option.

You can also attack with the mouse buttons. There’s an option in the menu for right clicking on anything to perform the primary/most likely action – talking to allies, looting corpses, attacking enemies etc., it will only start your auto-attack, but you can click on the others.

For that matter you could play the entire game using nothing but a normal 3 button mouse and the default control system if you wanted to because everything except moving can be done by clicking something on screen and you can move by holding down both buttons.

Anything on top of that is basically just for convenience and with a little bit of thought can be adapted to pretty much any control system you want. We’ve got people who play entirely with the keyboard, entirely with a mouse, with a joystick, a 360 controller, gamepads…all kinds of different set-ups.

Remap the controls and it’s dead easy. The default setup with your utilities being 6-0 is just awful, so I set those to Q, E, R, X and C which I find very easy to press and in case of oh *%"£ situations I can just smash everything.

The controls are very easy to get used to, and are also well suited to a gamepad if you’re a clicker and/or find it more comfortable.

The controls are easy, and as far as I can tell I don’t think much can be done to improve them aside from an In-Game joystick mapping function.

What your friend is looking for is a fixed-camera option, keeping the camera always behind the player so when you turn the mouse, your character turns as well, much like how it is in many (all?) 3rd person games – non MMORPG. You don’t click your skills – for example Mass Effect.

There was a mod for Guild Wars 2 that changed how the camera worked. Obviously it was breaking the rules and got downed, but that doesn’t mean it was a bad try.

What the mod did, was give the game a “true” 3rd person camera. That is, the game shoots projectiles/skills at the crosshair, the default is turning the camera WITH the player, so the camera is fixed behind the character and you need to press another button to activate the mouse (to click on staff on your screen). It’s perfect for 3rd person game (not MMORPG) players as it gives that much better control of your character, how you dodge and how you aim, without requiring to tab-target AT ALL, and this in Guild Wars 2…. not in some other game.

No more tab-target, or click target and it IS doable. On the minus side, you had to put all your skills on your keyboard, ok they already are, but you cannot use the mouse to activate your skills, which might be a problem for lots of players

I was surprised when I played another mmorpg (Neverwinter) that uses the exact same camera system….

A toggle for fixed-3rd person camera would be awesome!

I agree, GW2 has very fluid controls and definitely has the best feeling combat compared to all other MMOs I’ve played. And you are right, Prophet, there are definitely more important things to fix first.

I guess it’s a difficult thing to get right for everyone. For me, I could not go back to using a normal mouse after using my G600 (best MMO mouse ever imo!), but my guildies all use normal mice and they seem to do ok. Maybe my friend will get used to it and I need not worry at all. It certainly seems that most people who have replied so far have no problems with it.

I’d still like to have more options though. So long as it doesn’t break the game in any way of course.

Rin.1046:

You are right that GW2 is another MMO and as such it would make sense to have similar controls. But as I pointed out briefly in my opening post, Anet wanted to draw in players who did not normally play this genre of games.

To quote Anet:
“If you don’t play MMO’s you’ll really want to play Guild Wars 2”.

With this in mind, I do not think it is unrealistic to ask for improvements, to make the game easier to play for these not-so-mmo players. Making a game appeal to a wide range of players is not limited to the content, the controls will play a vital role in granting access to that content.

Also, as I stated, I do not think it is an issue either. I merely feel some improvements could be made to make the game more accessible.

. . .

You totally left out the first part of that quote dude. He says right before that: “If you like MMO’s, you’ll like GW2.”

They wanted all kinds of players from every genre. It’s a massive melting-pot game.

I personally have no problems with GW2’s controls and i have a bog standard mouse and keyboard (as i’m a cheapskate). I have played MMOs in the past though. I did get my partner into GW2 and she’s never played an MMO before this one. She wasn’t used to the controls at all but quickly adapted.

Mouse with bajillion keys not necessary … http://taugrim.com/2012/06/27/guide-to-guild-wars-2-keybinds/

My current mouse is a Naga Hex but I like my previous mouse my with two extra(so five total) a lot better, unfortunately finding a replacement is tougher than expected.

Mouse gestures would be pretty bad for ground target skills.

Unless we come from different universes, diablo and starcraft are terrible counter examples. Especially starcraft where APM is a thing …

As for starting your auto attack with the mouse. You are only partially correct. It is possible to do with just your right mouse button if you enable it.

You definitely don’t need a mouse with a ton of keys.

I’m using a Logitech G400 which has 5 extra keys (6 if you count pressing the scroll wheel down) and it’s taken me a while to find a use for them all. Even now some of them are just for convenience – one is current set to open my inventory.

Obsidian.1328:

. . .

You totally left out the first part of that quote dude. He says right before that: “If you like MMO’s, you’ll like GW2.”

They wanted all kinds of players from every genre. It’s a massive melting-pot game.

I left that out intentionally, due to the fact that the current controls are already befitting an MMO style of play. But you’re right, GW2 is a melting pot game and as such should really have options to cater to that.

But, if most people are ok with it, then maybe it is only a very very small minority that do have issues with it. I would have assumed a larger number of people would have found the controls awkward, but then one should never assume anything I guess .

Console player here! Would it surprise anyone who hasn’t played Tera that they let you play with a console controller?

But yes, the switch to PC was a bit confusing – still I’m not very adept, but I’m getting better and better at it. I’ve played a few games now, and I have to say, I find GW2 pretty straight forward. No, it’s not always optimal – circle strafing and attacking can be quite a stretch at times, but it’s a lot easier than I’ve found many other MMOs where the screen is literally full of different attacks on different keys that I have to memorise.

That said, I’d love to get a proper gaming mouse of some kind, just to avoid that stretch to the number keys while circle strafing.

This thread makes me wonder if ANet is too focused on the esport scene, and so has produced a overly spartan user interface with limited options of customizability. This because esports players are likely to bring their own gear that afford a high degree of customizability independent of the game played.

The one issue i have with the game is that for something that plays almost like a FPS, by leaving it to the player to avoid being hit rather than a stat, it has a very non-FPS control scheme out of the box with limited built in ability to turn it more FPS like.

One reason for this is the lack of a mouse toggle. Another is the targeting code that seems to behave like a weird cross-breed of crosshair and lock-on targeting.

if it wasn’t for my logitech g600 i would find the game nearly unplayable due to the many key presses involved in combat.

having all those side mouse buttons is a massive help.

Torpian.9142:

Tell him to get a Razer Nostromo and a Razer Hex – both make it easier to play.

^This 100% you really need a gamepad unless you like keyboard hotkeys, don’t become a keyboard turning clicker…

I am very pleased with the controls right now, with my current keybindings. I have no issue playing.