Guild Wars 2

When i mean “harder content” i dont mean adding more health to a boss (Im looking at you high level fractals). I mean something that takes an actual coordinated group effort with people rolling specific classes to work in unison and when you fail it is a complete wipe (ie, uw, fow from gw1).

Think of all the depth that would be added. Classes would work in synergy on a level never seen before in an mmo. It would be art

Edit: This would be instanced content.

I did, until they significantly ramped up the time investment involved in attaining BiS items.

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/454437568

Start at 44:30

Is that good enough for you. Keep in mind in the open world there is no much other fail mechanism that they can use besides a wipe due to players need to be able to come back from defeated.

As for instanced…. I think we had some hard dungeons other paths may get harder in the future.

RebelYell.7132:

I did, until they significantly ramped up the time investment involved in attaining BiS items.

Well the rewards for this new content could be ascended gear

rjnemer.7816:

When i mean “harder content” i dont mean adding more health to a boss (Im looking at you high level fractals). I mean something that takes an actual coordinated group effort with people rolling specific classes to work in unison and when you fail it is a complete wipe (ie, uw, fow from gw1).

Think of all the depth that would be added. Classes would work in synergy on a level never seen before in an mmo. It would be art

Edit: This would be instanced content.

If you need specific classes, I assure you there will be a concerted effort to find the most efficient way to complete it. Some classes (like engi) will feel left out.

anzenketh.3759:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/454437568

Start at 44:30

Is that good enough for you. Keep in mind in the open world there is no much other fail mechanism that they can use besides a wipe due to players need to be able to come back from defeated.

I watched this live. Im sorry but open world content will never be challenging.

I think they should stick to making the extremely difficult stuff in dungeons because open world players (especially those who don’t enjoy instakill bosses or bosses that take an hour to kill) would rather not deal with this issue in the open world. It’s bad enough that support and CC are completely useless throughout the PVE world as it is.

This is yet another case of the “they should fix combat first before new content comes out.”

Yes, as long as it’s a permanent content. Otherwise, no.

Vol.5241:

rjnemer.7816:

When i mean “harder content” i dont mean adding more health to a boss (Im looking at you high level fractals). I mean something that takes an actual coordinated group effort with people rolling specific classes to work in unison and when you fail it is a complete wipe (ie, uw, fow from gw1).

Think of all the depth that would be added. Classes would work in synergy on a level never seen before in an mmo. It would be art

Edit: This would be instanced content.

If you need specific classes, I assure you there will be a concerted effort to find the most efficient way to complete it. Some classes (like engi) will feel left out.

Have you ever heard of a guild called Death and taxes? They are an elite dungeon speed running guild. Extremely hard to get in to. They run a engi on thier dungeon tour

You would never know which class would be left out until people actually figure out the best ways and even then most “hardcore” players have more the 1 class along with the fact the buffs and nerfs will ultimately change the meta.

It would have been better if they ramped up the difficulty before they introduced new ascended gear. If you introduce more powerful gear and then ramp up the difficulty (especially in a trivial way like adding more health) people will (justifiably) scream gear grind.

OP, you had me until you said roll specific classes. As someone who has been playing MMOs since Everquest BETA, the death of the “holy trinity” is a good thing. Required classes for groups is horrible, and the biggest attraction of GW2 to me and many other players.

I definitely think some harder content would be cool. It’s funny to say this (as this was a game where very few cared about PVE content), but some of the best PVE design I’ve seen was in Warhammer, Tomb of the Vulture Lord. Man, this was challenging content when it came out. Complex fights that required precision, cooperation, and little to no room for error. I’d love to see some content of this caliber added.

Venirto.4208:

Yes, as long as it’s a permanent content. Otherwise, no.

Well that should be given. This game needs all the permanent content it can get at this point.

TexRob.5183:

OP, you had me until you said roll specific classes. As someone who has been playing MMOs since Everquest BETA, the death of the “holy trinity” is a good thing. Required classes for groups is horrible, and the biggest attraction of GW2 to me and many other players.

I definitely think some harder content would be cool. It’s funny to say this (as this was a game where very few cared about PVE content), but some of the best PVE design I’ve seen was in Warhammer, Tomb of the Vulture Lord. Man, this was challenging content when it came out. Complex fights that required precision, cooperation, and little to no room for error. I’d love to see some content of this caliber added.

Ok, but if you just 5 zerker wars smashing keys, then it isnt hard content. Its a fine line to walk but making combo fields and walls that only certain classes have will most certainly be the best way to go.

Also, it would be the only content that requires a certain group, The other 99% of the games content can be for the zerker war button smashers

What I would like to see is content appropriate for all levels of player in GW2. What I would like to see removed is catering to a mythical hardcore player in open world PvE so that you get things like Grenth, the Karka Queen, or the new Teq, large failure fests that empty that part of the open world. I call them mythical because you see signs of their life on the forums, but they are nowhere to be found in-game. They are simply “gone” like everyone else when the content becomes more “interesting”.

The open world is not about crushing challenge. Rather, it should be appropriately challenging for the player and situation you find there, i.e., a wide diversity of players who are not in voice chat and do not work from an interrupt list. Truly challenging content should be found in tiered instances. This way everyone can be satisfied. It’s one of those things that’s very simple and straightforward, but very difficult for Anet to get.

Raine.1394:

What I would like to see is content appropriate for all levels of player in GW2. What I would like to see removed is catering to a mythical hardcore player in open world PvE so that you get things like Grenth, the Karka Queen, or the new Teq, large failure fests that empty that part of the open world. I call them mythical because you see signs of their life on the forums, but they are nowhere to be found in-game. They are simply “gone” like everyone else when the content becomes more “interesting”.

The open world is not about crushing challenge. Rather, it should be appropriately challenging for the player and situation you find there, i.e., a wide diversity of players who are not in voice chat and do not work from an interrupt list. Truly challenging content should be found in tiered instances. This way everyone can be satisfied. It’s one of those things that’s very simple and straightforward, but very difficult for Anet to get.

They seemed to get it in gw1 LMAO

Actually yes OP, I would like to see instanced content that makes better use of all the game mechanics available to them as designers. As you stated I don’t want bosses with more hp or that hit harder, I want bosses that make you think and come up with a team plan and rewards you for “smarter” game play. As far as it requiring certain classes, I would rather see it be tied to certain builds that can perform well in a group together that breaks the current “dps” race mold as opposed to saying certain classes. I would like to think that all classes could come up with a build that would fit for these encounters but not all builds can complete it. I really would not like to be forced into a situation where one class gets the shaft.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Actually yes OP, I would like to see instanced content that makes better use of all the game mechanics available to them as designers. As you stated I don’t want bosses with more hp or that hit harder, I want bosses that make you think and come up with a team plan and rewards you for “smarter” game play. As far as it requiring certain classes, I would rather see it be tied to certain builds that can perform well in a group together that breaks the current “dps” race mold as opposed to saying certain classes. I would like to think that all classes could come up with a build that would fit for these encounters but not all builds can complete it. I really would not like to be forced into a situation where one class gets the shaft.

This is why 2 heads are greater then 1. I really like your ideas on builds instead of classes. Nice post

I don’t necessarily want ‘harder content’ for the sake of being hard. Like you said, no bigger numbers, bigger damage, more defense crap. That’s not interesting.

What I want is strategic group play that is enjoyable, where you want to be with other people. Things where even failing can be fun. Where you walk away with great memories and new friends.

However there are 2 barriers here: the content, and the community.

Take it as you please, just my 2c.

Personally I’d like to see them do something like the Gauntlet, but for multiple players. It’s hard, and it’s hard because each boss has mechanics which have to be learned and overcome in a specific way (or one of a few different ways). But it’s possible for all professions to do it.

If they could do something like that, and I think they’re moving in the right direction with things like the Tequatl update and the updated AC bosses. (AC is still easy but then it is the first dungeon, I just mean things like the Ghosteater fight having a unique mechanic you have to use, and have to work together to use, instead of just being a matter of everyone pounding away at a boss with a huge health bar.)

rjnemer.7816:

TexRob.5183:

OP, you had me until you said roll specific classes. As someone who has been playing MMOs since Everquest BETA, the death of the “holy trinity” is a good thing. Required classes for groups is horrible, and the biggest attraction of GW2 to me and many other players.

I definitely think some harder content would be cool. It’s funny to say this (as this was a game where very few cared about PVE content), but some of the best PVE design I’ve seen was in Warhammer, Tomb of the Vulture Lord. Man, this was challenging content when it came out. Complex fights that required precision, cooperation, and little to no room for error. I’d love to see some content of this caliber added.

Ok, but if you just 5 zerker wars smashing keys, then it isnt hard content. Its a fine line to walk but making combo fields and walls that only certain classes have will most certainly be the best way to go.

Also, it would be the only content that requires a certain group, The other 99% of the games content can be for the zerker war button smashers

So in your eyes everyone playing this game is either a “zerker war button smasher” or willing and able to make and gear one of each profession in order to have the character(s) required for each different area. Or were you intending that all this new content would require the same few professions? Meaning you either play those whether you like it or not or accept that you will never be able to do some parts of the game?

What about people who just want to make and play characters they enjoy and have fun playing, instead of what someone else (Anet or other players) has determined is the ‘optimal’ profession or build?

It’s one thing when it’s elitists (and more commonly wannbe elitists who try to imitate them and don’t actually understand what to look for) shutting people out of their dungeon groups for having the “wrong” profession. You can just go and join another group, or make one yourself. But if the content is actually designed to require specific professions you don’t have that option. You play what you’re told to play or you don’t play at all.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

What I want is strategic group play that is enjoyable, where you want to be with other people. Things where even failing can be fun. Where you walk away with great memories and new friends.

Very well said! Making failure fun is probably the hardest thing to do with game design. I can think of two examples of content in GW2 that made me want to try it again and content that did not.

Made me want to try it again after failing – The Flame and Frost Molten Facility final bosses: The Molten firestorm and Molten berserker.

Not only did these bosses have terrific character to them (best boss entrances since Tequatl!), but this fight made you want to go back after you tweaked your build and try new tactics. It was an interesting fight, very engaging to do with friends supporting each other and figuring out how to beat it.

Having Braham and Rox making comments in the fight didn’t hurt either. All in all, this was just a fun encounter that made your group feel like it was working together to beat it.

Made me never want to do it again – Aetherblade Retreat – Frizz’s lab.

The Aetherblade are already annoying with their spam stunlocks but this encounter was a whole different level of awful. The rotating Insta-Kill walls were a timed jumping puzzle. If you couldn’t hop on the terribly designed boxes at the right time, you died. There was no build, no tactic and no tweaking of traits that helped.

There was no interaction with your party during this stage, every person was on their own. There was no way to help each other save giving a bit of Swiftness (not that it would help).

The walls did far too much damage to heal and rezzing others served little purpose when there was no way to assist them in figuring out the badly made hit boxes of the obstacles you needed to get on. Any rez that was pulled off was promptly negated by the Insta-Kill walls unless the whole group did jumping puzzles well.

This was content that had a group all together in the same room, yet completely gutted any meaningful way to support each other.

The thing is that have been other puzzles in dungeons with Insta-Kill mechanics before, like the staircase in the FotM Asura/Uncategorized dungeon. But that puzzle was not deliberately designed to wipe the party and force them to repeatedly fight through needless, timesink trash mobs. On the staircase you could support each other by having one person rezzing people while they others tried it. You could try it together in waves rather than having players forced apart by mobs with spam pulls like in Frizz’s lab

The staircase made you feel like you were in a group that was working together because of that it made you want to try it again. Frizz’s lab might as well have thrown every character in their own private instance for all sense of interaction it gave.

All these reasons made Frizz’s lab fail at encouraging to keep trying it unless you had a whole group who love dying doing timed jumping puzzle. What was worse, this one puzzle gated the Aetherblade storyline insuring that unless you got through it you’d never see the conclusion with Mai Trin.

ArenaNet has many examples of content in GW2 that makes you want to try it even if you fail. I suppose that’s why this one stuck in my mind so much because it was such a stark contrast of content that did not.

rjnemer.7816:

Ok, but if you just 5 zerker wars smashing keys, then it isnt hard content. Its a fine line to walk but making combo fields and walls that only certain classes have will most certainly be the best way to go.

Also, it would be the only content that requires a certain group, The other 99% of the games content can be for the zerker war button smashers

That’s going from one extreme to another.

Given how professions are designed to be able to adapt to any aspect of combat, content shouldn’t require specific professions. In order to design this, the roles during the fight should be implemented into the fight themselves. With this, even only having the damage aspect could result in a fight that requires teamwork, co-ordination and awareness of other party members.

As for the original post, I would like challenging content.

However, I wouldn’t like it to be a scripted fight, where you just follow the steps. I’d like content that allows the players to think “how are we going to tackle this?” Scripted fights, where there is only one way to complete them, don’t offer much in the way of depth. I’d like it so the fight starts even before you’ve reached the boss; finding advantageous positions to attack from, scouting the area for hidden patrols that may come rushing to the bosses aid. Hell, even have bosses that patrol where you need to wait until the perfect time to strike, as opposed to the whole “I’m going to stand here and wait to be killed” thing they got going on.

In an ideal world, this challenging content would also be randomised. Randomised maps with obstacles (traps that are triggered as opposed to being on a timer, encouraging the player to take note of the surroundings), randomised patrol setups (the first patrol could be, say, a Hammer/Rifle Warrior type with a Staff Elementalist focusing on Water. The next time you go in, It could be a Sword + Mace / Sword + Sword Warrior and an Dagger + Dagger Elementalist) and randomised bosses (the first time you go in, the boss might be a Hammer / Mace and Shield Warrior with a tonne of stuns. The next, a Scepter / Focus Mesmer).

I want a dungeon consisting of 3 paths on the same level, or harder than Arah path 4.

I also want it to have the best rewards of all the dungeons.

That way, bads who want to “play how they want” can either not do it, fail it, or suffer 8 hour runs in their play-how-i-want gear. Experienced players can clear each path in 40-45 minutes.

we need pve professions balance…..not harder content.

Deathballs bypass most mechanic as they are now.

most speedrun parties don t eves say a word in a Whole dungeon….

P.S. also random events in dungeons.

I want content that scales properly.

I want the very concept of fixed party size to die in a fire at the bottom of a well.

By that I mean if I’m the only person in all of Malchor’s Leap (and I’ve had nights where that’s true) the events spawn in a tough but soloable form instead of Champions for outdated events loitering around every kitten skill point.

I want for zerging to be a tactically WORTHLESS strategy because for every single body the difficulty of the encounter goes up appropriately – not this tragic farce we have now of DEs scaling up in response to the presence of as many as 10 people… and then twenty people smash through it like wet cardboard.

I want the Devs to stop and think back to what a total waste most of Orr became because its terrible scaling means it can only serve a full house… and the population has moved on… Because the new Tecquatl event REEKS of the same thoughtless design.

No… I loved SAB first world this latest iteration not a hope, its not fun anymore…

The thing About SAB was it was fun to do for everyone who attempted it, this new version is only fun for a hardcore few, the rest see it as frustration and tedium.

Personally this isn’t just SAB either its the same all over this game..

I think harder content would be welcome, but not until after the current farm frenzy settles down. I’m too busy farming, I have no time for fun.

Of course.

However, my idea of a challenge is not one of trial and error, but one that could be completed on the first try if you were skilled enough, no matter how unlikely it seems.

TooBz.3065:

I think harder content would be welcome, but not until after the current farm frenzy settles down. I’m too busy farming, I have no time for fun.

Well this content should be more rewarding then zerg farming. So it entices players to actually learn the game.

ArchonWing.9480:

Of course.

However, my idea of a challenge is not one of trial and error, but one that could be completed on the first try if you were skilled enough, no matter how unlikely it seems.

Well if you dont fail the first time with a random group (or even a well skilled group you know) of people, then it isnt hard content.

Plus trail and error would come for finding more efficient ways of doing it, not just completing it for the first time.

rjnemer.7816:

ArchonWing.9480:

Of course.

However, my idea of a challenge is not one of trial and error, but one that could be completed on the first try if you were skilled enough, no matter how unlikely it seems.

Well if you dont fail the first time with a random group (or even a well skilled group you know) of people, then it isnt hard content.

Plus trail and error would come for finding more efficient ways of doing it, not just completing it for the first time.

Of course a random group should fail the first time. But the best players in the world should at least have a certain chance of success on the first try.

What I’m referring to is things that will test the player’s reflexes and ability to learn, not arbitrary mechanics that are just meant as cheap shots. Consider those shooter games that require pixel precise dodging. It is feasible to beat that on the first try, but most people aren’t.

Sure, trial and error is of course useful for speedrunning something. But that’s another issue.

I don’t necessarily not want harder content, but I want content that engages me and makes me feel like going! The personal story did that for me, and it’s one of the reasons I fell in love with guild wars 2!