Guild Wars 2

We currently have an ongoing discussion blaming the downed state for people using only the zerk armor build. But isnt it the dodge mechanic that plays a huge role in making the zerker gear viable ? Especially in boss battles. I mean as long as you can dodge the big hits of the boss wearing minimal defence and maximum offense gear works fine.( for eg Lupi fights in Arah) Am not saying that dodge function should be removed, it is one of the signature combat mechanics of GW2. But I think we are underestimating the impact this has on gameplay and builds. With the right trait set up you can dodge and completely nullify most of the incoming damage while dishing out maximum damage on the enemy wearing purely zerk gear.

I think devs must consider this while deciding on how to encourage diversification of builds in this game. Perhaps we need more attks that cannot be dodged ?

What are your thoughts on this ?

A mechanic that allows skilled players to defeat content is a good mechanic for an action based game. This is by design to allow actual skill to play an important role in fights instead of relying on gear.

I think it’s a great design that your success doesn’t depend on your gear but rather on your skills. This isn’t WoW or any other generic MMO where this happens.

maddoctor.2738:

A mechanic that allows skilled players to defeat content is a good mechanic for an action based game. This is by design to allow actual skill to play an important role in fights instead of relying on gear.

I like what you’re saying, but the OP is actually asking for enemies to have faster attacks. Sure they’d be smaller hits to balance it out.

So the idea isn’t to invalidate the dodge mechanic. It’s to make it so not every encounter is easily dodgeable.

For example, that annoying boss at the end of HotW P1 actually makes condition and ranged builds seem more viable in pugs because he’s a bit more dangerous to melee than most enemies.

And no I’m not an anti-zerker advocate either. All of my characters are zerker and I love that playstyle.

DarkWasp.7291:

I like what you’re saying, but the OP is actually asking for enemies to have faster attacks. Sure they’d be smaller hits to balance it out.

So the idea isn’t to invalidate the dodge mechanic. It’s to make it so not every encounter is easily dodgeable.

For example, that annoying boss at the end of HotW P1 actually makes condition and ranged builds seem more viable in pugs because he’s a bit more dangerous to melee than most enemies.

And no I’m not an anti-zerker advocate either. All of my characters are zerker and I love that playstyle.

That’s what we’ll most likely get in HoT – challenging group content. Let’s also not forget that anet said multiple times that they won’t touch old dungeon and instead will focus on the maguuma jungle content.

Undodgeable auto-attacks will require the need of a frontline, a tank, and the more furious these auto-attacks will be, the more you’ll require a healer and proper aggro management, which will bring a semblance of holy trinity back in the game. Strangely, it’s not something I’m supporting, or something I’m against.

DarkWasp.7291:

maddoctor.2738:

A mechanic that allows skilled players to defeat content is a good mechanic for an action based game. This is by design to allow actual skill to play an important role in fights instead of relying on gear.

I like what you’re saying, but the OP is actually asking for enemies to have faster attacks. Sure they’d be smaller hits to balance it out.

So the idea isn’t to invalidate the dodge mechanic. It’s to make it so not every encounter is easily dodgeable.

For example, that boss at the end of HotW P1 actually makes condition and ranged builds seem more viable in pugs because he’s a bit more dangerous to melee than most enemies.

I think he asked for attacks that can’t be dodged, not faster attacks.

Perhaps we need more attks that cannot be dodged ?

Attacks that can’t be dodged aren’t the answer, removing skill from encounters isn’t the answer. What’s next? Let’s make attacks undodgeable, unblockable, uninterruptable and allow players to use their armor/hit points to mitigate them, removing skill from the game completely? Attacks need counterplay.

Faster attacks is something I’d like too, less damage, faster attack speed is something mobs certainly need and would make certain encounters better. But not removing counterplay completely, that’s no answer.

maddoctor.2738:

A mechanic that allows skilled players to defeat content is a good mechanic for an action based game. This is by design to allow actual skill to play an important role in fights instead of relying on gear.

But then from what we see here Skill in playing is overpowering the effect of gears (which is something people want i guess) BUT the skill needed isnt much. Hence any player with limited skill in dodging and using his other skills well is currently able to nullify effects of wearing pure zerker gear.

Ankushp.7245:

But then from what we see here Skill in playing is overpowering the effect of gears (which is something people want i guess) BUT the skill needed isnt much. Hence any player with limited skill in dodging and using his other skills well is currently able to nullify effects of wearing pure zerker gear.

Please don’t use hyperboles in a discussion, they don’t lead to anything constructive.

rotten.9753:

I think it’s a great design that your success doesn’t depend on your gear but rather on your skills. This isn’t WoW or any other generic MMO where this happens.

So then i guess you agree that due to skill in gameplay which most people have sufficiently for the current difficulty level of gw2, gear builds are rendered ineffective.

Ankushp.7245:

maddoctor.2738:

A mechanic that allows skilled players to defeat content is a good mechanic for an action based game. This is by design to allow actual skill to play an important role in fights instead of relying on gear.

But then from what we see here Skill in playing is overpowering the effect of gears (which is something people want i guess) BUT the skill needed isnt much. Hence any player with limited skill in dodging and using his other skills well is currently able to nullify effects of wearing pure zerker gear.

Limited skill in dodging? Are we talking about general PVE now, world bosses, or actual content that requires intelligence? I guess it’s because of the limited skill in dodging why so many people that do Arah in full zerker gear go in a group with someone that will solo Lupi when they get there because they will be on the floor there.

Ankushp.7245:

So then i guess you agree that due to skill in gameplay which most people have sufficiently for the current difficulty level of gw2, gear builds are rendered ineffective.

I wouldn’t say people have enough skill in this game. That’s absurd. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have to solo bosses like lupi all the time while pugging, now would I?

if they added select attacks then dodge is completely worthless, this will force ppl on making their build more defense focused.
select attacks are attacks that ignores any movement, it go’s straight to the enemy and might even ignore armor. (like most spells do in GW1 of the necro, it works so well that you can attack from behind a wall.)

maddoctor.2738:

Ankushp.7245:

maddoctor.2738:

A mechanic that allows skilled players to defeat content is a good mechanic for an action based game. This is by design to allow actual skill to play an important role in fights instead of relying on gear.

But then from what we see here Skill in playing is overpowering the effect of gears (which is something people want i guess) BUT the skill needed isnt much. Hence any player with limited skill in dodging and using his other skills well is currently able to nullify effects of wearing pure zerker gear.

Limited skill in dodging? Are we talking about general PVE now, world bosses, or actual content that requires intelligence? I guess it’s because of the limited skill in dodging why so many people that do Arah in full zerker gear go in a group with someone that will solo Lupi when they get there because they will be on the floor there.

I would like to think that many people have improved over the years
Neway its peoole who have good gameplay skills that set the trend……they use the dodge mechanic and their other skills well and are hence able to use play well with the zerker gear. The remaining population emulates these good players (who tend to post builds on websites and stuff) and hence use zerker gear too (irrespective of their success in using the same)

this is a suggestion based on the assumption that the zerker “meta” is a bad thing. Which it is not. It is as good as any other optimal gear, especially as good as the next best gear that would become a “requirement” after major combat changes, like the one you propose. People unwilling to adopt – for whatever reasons – would then bring their whinefest to the next thing.

Ankushp.7245:

maddoctor.2738:

Ankushp.7245:

maddoctor.2738:

A mechanic that allows skilled players to defeat content is a good mechanic for an action based game. This is by design to allow actual skill to play an important role in fights instead of relying on gear.

But then from what we see here Skill in playing is overpowering the effect of gears (which is something people want i guess) BUT the skill needed isnt much. Hence any player with limited skill in dodging and using his other skills well is currently able to nullify effects of wearing pure zerker gear.

Limited skill in dodging? Are we talking about general PVE now, world bosses, or actual content that requires intelligence? I guess it’s because of the limited skill in dodging why so many people that do Arah in full zerker gear go in a group with someone that will solo Lupi when they get there because they will be on the floor there.

I would like to think that many people have improved over the years
Neway its peoole who have good gameplay skills that set the trend……they use the dodge mechanic and their other skills well and are hence able to use play well with the zerker gear. The remaining population emulates these good players (who tend to post builds on websites and stuff) and hence use zerker gear too (irrespective of their success in using the same)

And then they fail, so they use more defensive sets to adapt to their skills. How is that a problem with dodging or zerker?

No, like many stated above, dodging doesn’t hurt the game in terms of the zerker meta.

What hurts the game in terms of zerker-meta is that content is either:

A. Not-punishing squishy builds enough
B. Not providing viable alternatives

If we went for A. then we would see the zerker meta morph slightly to become a hybrid zerker/tank/condi-cleanse meta, so we can ask ourselves, is that what we want? No.

If we went for B. then we would need to improve the viability of support/alternative dps builds. Would that change the way zerker meta is played? No. Would it still be viable? Yes. Would it be viable with the newly improved build types? Hopefully.

So what is the actual problem here? Other build types just aren’t as viable for the majority of content. ANet is looking at ways to change that, I just hope they are looking in the right places. At this point I believe the right places would be:

• Increasing the need for timing heals.
• Nerfing support functionality of powerful dps builds (staff ele, guardian)
• Increasing the viability of sacrificing personal dps for party dps or sustained cc or heals.

This brings us into the whole holy trinity debate, but realise that I am not advocating that horrible strategy. Instead I believe that if you want to play full glass-cannon you should. Similarly, if you want to heal the party then you should not be frowned upon for doing that either.

The issue is reaching a compromise. If a party needs a healer to do a certain type of content, then someone is forced to take that role. However, if a party can run full glass cannon through the same type of content, then there is absolutely no need for healers. You need to meet in the middle, make the zerker meta a bit less of a glass-cannon, and healing/support a bit more needed.

Ideally, the only people who would run full glass-cannon would be pro-guilds communicating through ts, and they would still run that build type at a risk of wiping. While most pugs would see some communication done at the beginning of a run to decide who watches out for the party’s health, and who sacrifices some personal dps for ccs/party dps.

Finally, to provide for this the ability to change builds according to the situation should be made more accessible. That means you should either be able to switch gear stats, or gear should not affect direct combat stats, but other factors instead. E.g. Say your helmet gives you a shorter cooldown on a utility skill, while your armor gives you longer boon durations etc. Similarly, runes could be unlocked on a per character basis to give the necessary stat boosts, which could be changed on the fly, and of course, trait points would play the biggest role in deciding your chars health and dps.

TL;DR: ANet needs to look at how to make support builds more viable, and possibly change how armor/weapons affect stats.

maddoctor.2738:

Ankushp.7245:

maddoctor.2738:

Ankushp.7245:

maddoctor.2738:

A mechanic that allows skilled players to defeat content is a good mechanic for an action based game. This is by design to allow actual skill to play an important role in fights instead of relying on gear.

But then from what we see here Skill in playing is overpowering the effect of gears (which is something people want i guess) BUT the skill needed isnt much. Hence any player with limited skill in dodging and using his other skills well is currently able to nullify effects of wearing pure zerker gear.

Limited skill in dodging? Are we talking about general PVE now, world bosses, or actual content that requires intelligence? I guess it’s because of the limited skill in dodging why so many people that do Arah in full zerker gear go in a group with someone that will solo Lupi when they get there because they will be on the floor there.

I would like to think that many people have improved over the years
Neway its peoole who have good gameplay skills that set the trend……they use the dodge mechanic and their other skills well and are hence able to use play well with the zerker gear. The remaining population emulates these good players (who tend to post builds on websites and stuff) and hence use zerker gear too (irrespective of their success in using the same)

And then they fail, so they use more defensive sets to adapt to their skills. How is that a problem with dodging or zerker?

There is no ‘problem’. Am giving you all, a reason for the zerker meta. It exists because through skill in playing and utilising the dodge mechanic you can make the zerker build perfectly viable in almost every existing scenario.

And no they don’t adapt. Most people keep trying to use the zerker build hence all the fail pug squads….. As long as people know that with skill you can bypass the need for defensive gear stats, there will be no variation in good gear builds in this game.

Now whether you want variation in gear builds is upto you…..am just highlighting the fact that being heavily skill based is what has made all other gear stats in this game less attractive than zerker.

Dodging is great. The issue is bosses that use one big attack with a huge windup.

Magnnus.5169:

Dodging is great. The issue is bosses that use one big attack with a huge windup.

Yea faster attacks instead of that one big attack would help.

Blind and Aegis not scaling with any attributes has at least as much to do with the success of ’Zerker as the mini-godmode of dodging.

If the Aegis only absorbed a portion of a hit based off your Toughness, you’d see people gearing differently… instantly.

The high base efficiency of un-geared self-heals and kitten poor scaling of healing power is another way in which “Zerker isn’t especially right, just all other stat combos are wrong.”

Ankushp.7245:

maddoctor.2738:

Ankushp.7245:

maddoctor.2738:

Ankushp.7245:

maddoctor.2738:

A mechanic that allows skilled players to defeat content is a good mechanic for an action based game. This is by design to allow actual skill to play an important role in fights instead of relying on gear.

But then from what we see here Skill in playing is overpowering the effect of gears (which is something people want i guess) BUT the skill needed isnt much. Hence any player with limited skill in dodging and using his other skills well is currently able to nullify effects of wearing pure zerker gear.

Limited skill in dodging? Are we talking about general PVE now, world bosses, or actual content that requires intelligence? I guess it’s because of the limited skill in dodging why so many people that do Arah in full zerker gear go in a group with someone that will solo Lupi when they get there because they will be on the floor there.

I would like to think that many people have improved over the years
Neway its peoole who have good gameplay skills that set the trend……they use the dodge mechanic and their other skills well and are hence able to use play well with the zerker gear. The remaining population emulates these good players (who tend to post builds on websites and stuff) and hence use zerker gear too (irrespective of their success in using the same)

And then they fail, so they use more defensive sets to adapt to their skills. How is that a problem with dodging or zerker?

There is no ‘problem’. Am giving you all, a reason for the zerker meta. It exists because through skill in playing and utilising the dodge mechanic you can make the zerker build perfectly viable in almost every existing scenario.

And no they don’t adapt. Most people keep trying to use the zerker build hence all the fail pug squads….. As long as people know that with skill you can bypass the need for defensive gear stats, there will be no variation in good gear builds in this game.

Now whether you want variation in gear builds is upto you…..am just highlighting the fact that being heavily skill based is what has made all other gear stats in this game less attractive than zerker.

Actually, no, it’s not skill at dodging that has made it so. It is the lack of added value of other stats/builds to a fight. The reason the zerker meta persists is because “why sustain when you can kill”? If you take a cue from pvp you can see that zerker is not meta there and there’s a reason to it. It’s because you cannot reliably kill with zerker (partly because enemy expects that burst, partly because the enemy can counter/sustain that burst).

How can you emulate that in pve? Well, first off you need to make fights slightly more unpredictable (faster attacks, random patterns, less exploitation possibility, shorter leashes, etc.)

Secondly, you can make other stats/builds more viable through increasing the added value they provide in fights. The warrior meta sacrifices some personal dps for partywide dps with phalanx strength and empower allies. <- Still, they are running a zerker meta.

I suggest changing the way gear affects your stats as the best way to make viable other stats than the zerker meta. The way healing power, boons, and condition damage affects encounters also needs to be carefully tweaked to make them more viable.

Amusingly, negation mechanics actually make glass cannon builds less viable in pvp, because when your only defence is a good offence and dodging is an uncontested skill, (read: not skill at all) you basically have no offence or defence.

At the end of the day, all pve is solvable and all ai are programmed to lose. There will always be an objectively best way to play any pve content in any game that has been or will ever be made. Changing that way to something else won’t suddenly make this not true.

Ug. The ‘it can’t be perfect so why even try to be better’ defense. Please, just don’t. Game design is an actual profession because IT CAN BE BETTER.

Nike.2631:

Blind and Aegis not scaling with any attributes has at least as much to do with the success of ’Zerker as the mini-godmode of dodging.

If the Aegis only absorbed a portion of a hit based off your Toughness, you’d see people gearing differently… instantly.

The high base efficiency of un-geared self-heals and kitten poor scaling of healing power is another way in which “Zerker isn’t especially right, just all other stat combos are wrong.”

Then you’d see people wearing Knight’s gear and you’d whine about that in the future. There will never be a diversity in stats because there will always be this one stat combination that is optimal in the eyes of the players. How hard is it too understand?

Ankushp.7245:

I would like to think that many people have improved over the years

It’d be nice!!

Evidence to the contrary in my experience.

Example:
Been running a lot of fractal 50s lately.
Time to complete: 1-2.5 hours.
On average 1-2 full wipes, plenty of individual deaths.
We started doing gear checks ( omg, some of the gear pinged was horrendous).
After gear checks:
5-10 mins longer to fill 1-3 pugs spots from LFG.
Completion times : 35-55 minutes.
Full party wipes: ~3-5.
more deaths, less time. Moral of the story: gear check pugs

Often people think they can equip defensive gear, or bad gear, kitten the party and think the they won’t notice.
At least those in aggressive gear have the potential to learn to use active defences. Thus becoming more better, more useful party members. not to mention having even faster runs and being able to get more done in the finite time available.

Those in defensive gear tend to just do the headless chicken dance while soaking up hits and trying to heal up ( because if you could actively avoid damage, why would you take defensive gear?).

I’m also seeing people talking about the meta without realising that I as a guardian am constantly: condi clearing; providing stability; providing aegis; providing reflects; grouping mobs; providing swiftness in several ways using several skills, all depending upon the encounter. Always as a priority over the dps. These things are part of the current meta. It is not dps and nothing else. Which it seems some people still naively believe.

Chobiko.9182:

Actually, no, it’s not skill at dodging that has made it so. It is the lack of added value of other stats/builds to a fight. The reason the zerker meta persists is because “why sustain when you can kill”? If you take a cue from pvp you can see that zerker is not meta there and there’s a reason to it. It’s because you cannot reliably kill with zerker (partly because enemy expects that burst, partly because the enemy can counter/sustain that burst).

How can you emulate that in pve? Well, first off you need to make fights slightly more unpredictable (faster attacks, random patterns, less exploitation possibility, shorter leashes, etc.)

Secondly, you can make other stats/builds more viable through increasing the added value they provide in fights. The warrior meta sacrifices some personal dps for partywide dps with phalanx strength and empower allies. <- Still, they are running a zerker meta.

I suggest changing the way gear affects your stats as the best way to make viable other stats than the zerker meta. The way healing power, boons, and condition damage affects encounters also needs to be carefully tweaked to make them more viable.

In pvp you have celestial meta (so no diversity as well) and people complain on pvp forums as much as you do here. So, please don’t bring pvp into this.

for as long as we have ways to counter damage in PVE dungeons zerker will always be favoured.

its highly effective and with some practice of the fights u never get downed. unless u get a lag spike :P

Artemis Thuras.8795:

I’m also seeing people talking about the meta without realising that I as a guardian am constantly: condi clearing; providing stability; providing aegis; providing reflects; grouping mobs; providing swiftness in several ways using several skills, all depending upon the encounter. Always as a priority over the dps. These things are part of the current meta. It is not dps and nothing else. Which it seems some people still naively believe.

It’s like flogging a dead horse. The OP and people like him want their gear to matter, not how they play.

Nike.2631:

Blind and Aegis not scaling with any attributes has at least as much to do with the success of ’Zerker as the mini-godmode of dodging.

If the Aegis only absorbed a portion of a hit based off your Toughness, you’d see people gearing differently… instantly.

The high base efficiency of un-geared self-heals and kitten poor scaling of healing power is another way in which “Zerker isn’t especially right, just all other stat combos are wrong.”

And that would destroy versatility completely. We don’t have gear stat variety in the game now, yes that’s true, tying skills to stats would remove skill/trait variety as well. Congratulations.

Chobiko.9182:

Ankushp.7245:

maddoctor.2738:

Ankushp.7245:

maddoctor.2738:

Ankushp.7245:

maddoctor.2738:

A mechanic that allows skilled players to defeat content is a good mechanic for an action based game. This is by design to allow actual skill to play an important role in fights instead of relying on gear.

But then from what we see here Skill in playing is overpowering the effect of gears (which is something people want i guess) BUT the skill needed isnt much. Hence any player with limited skill in dodging and using his other skills well is currently able to nullify effects of wearing pure zerker gear.

Limited skill in dodging? Are we talking about general PVE now, world bosses, or actual content that requires intelligence? I guess it’s because of the limited skill in dodging why so many people that do Arah in full zerker gear go in a group with someone that will solo Lupi when they get there because they will be on the floor there.

I would like to think that many people have improved over the years
Neway its peoole who have good gameplay skills that set the trend……they use the dodge mechanic and their other skills well and are hence able to use play well with the zerker gear. The remaining population emulates these good players (who tend to post builds on websites and stuff) and hence use zerker gear too (irrespective of their success in using the same)

And then they fail, so they use more defensive sets to adapt to their skills. How is that a problem with dodging or zerker?

There is no ‘problem’. Am giving you all, a reason for the zerker meta. It exists because through skill in playing and utilising the dodge mechanic you can make the zerker build perfectly viable in almost every existing scenario.

And no they don’t adapt. Most people keep trying to use the zerker build hence all the fail pug squads….. As long as people know that with skill you can bypass the need for defensive gear stats, there will be no variation in good gear builds in this game.

Now whether you want variation in gear builds is upto you…..am just highlighting the fact that being heavily skill based is what has made all other gear stats in this game less attractive than zerker.

Actually, no, it’s not skill at dodging that has made it so. It is the lack of added value of other stats/builds to a fight. The reason the zerker meta persists is because “why sustain when you can kill”? If you take a cue from pvp you can see that zerker is not meta there and there’s a reason to it. It’s because you cannot reliably kill with zerker (partly because enemy expects that burst, partly because the enemy can counter/sustain that burst).

How can you emulate that in pve? Well, first off you need to make fights slightly more unpredictable (faster attacks, random patterns, less exploitation possibility, shorter leashes, etc.)

Secondly, you can make other stats/builds more viable through increasing the added value they provide in fights. The warrior meta sacrifices some personal dps for partywide dps with phalanx strength and empower allies. <- Still, they are running a zerker meta.

I suggest changing the way gear affects your stats as the best way to make viable other stats than the zerker meta. The way healing power, boons, and condition damage affects encounters also needs to be carefully tweaked to make them more viable.

PvP: I beg to differ. I find (semi-)glass cannon & active defences works better than playing the bunker hero who can’t fight their way out of a paper bag.

PvE:
There are plenty of mobs in dungeons alone with fast attacks. I can provide a list of some if you like.
Bosses already have RNG on attack rotations. But you’d know this if you knew the tells and the active defences needed.
exploits: this has nothing to do with gear.. or the meta really.
Leash ranges? When its much faster to kill most boss’ where it spawns than spend time LoSing it around some corner for no reason since FGS rush has been nerfed for months now? OK.

Do we need more bosses with fast attacks, different mechanics?
Yes.
MORE DUNGEONS PLS!!

Change the way stats work: there will be another meta and you’ll be back to QQ about that too.

Seems like there is some severe L2P issues with here with PvE.

If we look at Pvp/WvW we have undodgeable auto-attacks, but nobody demands tanks or healer. In PvP dodges are still important but not the nonplusultra. There is still enough pressure put on you you have to deal with.

In my eyes in PvE several things come together: mob design/AI; lack of varied encounters and stats that have not enough benefits. This leads to the fact that only a few stat combinations are favored in most PvE encounters.

Belenwyn.8674:

If we look at Pvp/WvW we have undodgeable auto-attacks, but nobody demands tanks or healer. In PvP dodges are still important but not the nonplusultra. There is still enough pressure put on you you have to deal with.

In my eyes in PvE several things come together: mob design/AI; lack of varied encounters and stats that have not enough benefits. This leads to the fact that only a few stat combinations are favored in most PvE encounters.

Sure, in PVP there are a lot faster attacks so you can’t dodge everything. However, that’s why most players in PVP use a lot of active defense skills instead or good heal sustain skills. See how the Celestial D/D Elementalists are “locked” in using Cantrips only, how every Warrior uses Healing Signet and regularly have a Shield for blocks, how every Guardian uses Shelter, a Focus (for extra blocks) and Renewing Focus (invulnerability), how Mesmers use Blink and Decoy etc

Now, if they applied a similar principle to PVE (faster hitting mobs, more frequent attacks etc) do you think players will change their gear (Which takes a lot of time and gold – especially Ascended) or simply change their Utility skills to get more defense?

In my opinion Anet needs to implement more attacks for bosses that dont require use of the dodge function or stacking but rather intelligent responses from the player.

An example: Boss telegraphs a huge aoe attack, the only way to avoid its damage is to jump up on a platform.

Or….

Boss telegraphs an attack, based on the telegraphed attack from the boss; players must either move to location A, B, or C to avoid damage.

Currently their is not much intelligent responses required from the players which is what makes these “bosses” seem so simple and easily defeatable with the meta zerk builds. If their were more intelligent responses required then builds could become more diverse as a toughness / vitality build could become more useful in situations where dodging or avoiding damage is not required, allowing them to dish out more damage during times zerk builds would not be able to.

maddoctor.2738:

Now, if they applied a similar principle to PVE (faster hitting mobs, more frequent attacks etc) do you think players will change their gear (Which takes a lot of time and gold – especially Ascended) or simply change their Utility skills to get more defense?

I think players would change more often their gear for sure if it would be as simple as changing traits or skills. But the need to carry 6 to 18 pieces of gear in the rucksack is not fun. I would love to have the PvP system for the gear – even with the knowledge how primitive and restricted it is.

The way I look at it;

1. There are 21 different armour statistic types
2. There are 71 different runes to augment that armour

There should be an effective/useful/wanted “meta” (though not needed) that corresponds to each armour statistic type and rune augmentation.

If game design does not allow those different “meta” to evolve, then create the ability for those different “meta” to evolve or remove the armour type (just like magic find armour was removed).

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Do we need more bosses with fast attacks, different mechanics?
Yes.
MORE DUNGEONS PLS!!

Indeed.

Add a new dungeon where all enemies have an energy shield and are thus unable to receive critical hits: boom, two thirds of berzerker become useless. Add a positive spin on in (near the beginning, a friendly NPC gives the players a gizmo that refills endurance when they kill someone with the energy shield) and you have a different dungeon, requiring players to adapt (and not only gear, but traits and etc).

Add a new dungeon where all enemies either do fast attacks or come in huge waves of small enemies, so dodging each big attack is impossible – and then other kinds of defense become important, and berserker is not enough.

Add a new dungeon where most enemies have very high armor, very low health and are extra vulnerable to conditions. You change the focus away from berserker by rewarding a playstyle that is usually punished in PvE.

“But Test, what if someone complains saying, ‘I love berserker and I don’t have money to buy other gear?’”

I would say, “See, that’s what players who don’t use berserker have to deal with today, and stop complaining – you still have all the dungeons in vanilla GW2, in which your playstyle is the most effective”.

Belenwyn.8674:

maddoctor.2738:

Now, if they applied a similar principle to PVE (faster hitting mobs, more frequent attacks etc) do you think players will change their gear (Which takes a lot of time and gold – especially Ascended) or simply change their Utility skills to get more defense?

I think players would change more often their gear for sure if it would be as simple as changing traits or skills. But the need to carry 6 to 18 pieces of gear in the rucksack is not fun. I would love to have the PvP system for the gear – even with the knowledge how primitive and restricted it is.

That’s true. If changing your stats was as simple as changing traits or skills then we would have a lot more variety in the game. It IS one of the most limiting factors for variety, Legendary armor and rings/amulets can’t come fast enough.

I would love to have the ability to change stats be restricted to things you’ve unlocked first (with a dropdown or like in PVP) without having to pay a premium price for some overexpensive skins.

States.6387:

In my opinion Anet needs to implement more attacks for bosses that dont require use of the dodge function or stacking but rather intelligent responses from the player.

An example: Boss telegraphs a huge aoe attack, the only way to avoid its damage is to jump up on a platform.

Or….

Boss telegraphs an attack, based on the telegraphed attack from the boss; players must either move to location A, B, or C to avoid damage.

Currently their is not much intelligent responses required from the players which is what makes these “bosses” seem so simple and easily defeatable with the meta zerk builds. If their were more intelligent responses required then builds could become more diverse as a toughness / vitality build could become more useful in situations where dodging or avoiding damage is not required, allowing them to dish out more damage during times zerk builds would not be able to.

so timing a dodge isn’t intelligent? as opposed facetanking..

Your suggestions.. You mean like VineWraith champions?
Yeah.. Anet already tried it and frankly those bosses are FAR TO EASY. But they have to be because open world = zergs in nomads gear.

You think not needing to dodge or avoid damage will make non zerker gear able to put out better dps? lol. I suggest you go and think that through a bit more.

Put those mechanics in (new) dungeons?
YES PLS!
I would love a mordrem filled dungeon!

Test.8734:

Indeed.

Add a new dungeon where all enemies have an energy shield and are thus unable to receive critical hits: boom, two thirds of berzerker become useless. Add a positive spin on in (near the beginning, a friendly NPC gives the players a gizmo that refills endurance when they kill someone with the energy shield) and you have a different dungeon, requiring players to adapt (and not only gear, but traits and etc).

Add a new dungeon where all enemies either do fast attacks or come in huge waves of small enemies, so dodging each big attack is impossible – and then other kinds of defense become important, and berserker is not enough.

Add a new dungeon where most enemies have very high armor, very low health and are extra vulnerable to conditions. You change the focus away from berserker by rewarding a playstyle that is usually punished in PvE.

“But Test, what if someone complains saying, ‘I love berserker and I don’t have money to buy other gear?’”

I would say, “See, that’s what players who don’t use berserker have to deal with today, and stop complaining – you still have all the dungeons in vanilla GW2, in which your playstyle is the most effective”.

I see you like passive gameplay where your stats instead of your actions influence the end results. That’s okay, everyone should have an opinion but you should maybe try a different game where it is already happening instead of constantly complaining here without any result.

rotten.9753:

I see you like passive gameplay where your stats instead of your actions influence the end results. That’s okay, everyone should have an opinion but you should maybe try a different game where it is already happening instead of constantly complaining here without any result.

Are you that concerned about a game in which berserker isn’t king? Don’t worry, you would still have your existing playground. Everything else would require more and better, but if you don’t want to adapt, you can stay at what’s already there.

Test.8734:

rotten.9753:

I see you like passive gameplay where your stats instead of your actions influence the end results. That’s okay, everyone should have an opinion but you should maybe try a different game where it is already happening instead of constantly complaining here without any result.

Are you that concerned about a game in which berserker isn’t king? Don’t worry, you would still have your existing playground. Everything else would require more and better, but if you don’t want to adapt, you can stay at what’s already there.

How is standing still and facetanking content “more and better”?

rotten.9753:

It’s like flogging a dead horse. The OP and people like him want their gear to matter, not how they play.

If anything, it is quite the opposite. As it stands now, gear already matters…but only as long as it is zerker gear (condition damage has its own, other issues; no use discussing about them here).
Cause the large majority of the skills, being offensive, use all of those stats. But there are just few to no ways to use the other stats. Defensive stats just aren’t coupled to defensive skills, healing power is used by few skills and usually one must have dedicated builds just to use said stat, let alone raising it (and as we want to avoid having healers, it can’t even have really sensible effects, even when focusing on it; imho, they should just couple it with boon effects as well and rename it support power, enlarging its scope and thus the possible applications).
Boon duration surely has more applications…but the amount given on armors and trinkets is laughable – 11% at most, and there is a single gear giving those – giver’s/snowflake, with a “toughness/boon duration/healing power” stat distribution that won’t ever be used by anyone. Could as well just use platinum doubloon on any other gear, at least you can get to reasonable amounts with those.
Basically, either they lack uses, scale badly or are given in laughable amounts. Or a combination of the three.

As now, people already have skillful ways to use offensive stats. They just have to give skillful ways to use the other stats as well. Else there won’t ever be any point for good players to use any gear other than zerker.

TIL people are getting worse at concealing their desire for zero damage builds to be top tier for group content.

This is nothing to do with diversity, people just want their own builds to be wanted.

Test.8734:

Are you that concerned about a game in which berserker isn’t king? Don’t worry, you would still have your existing playground. Everything else would require more and better, but if you don’t want to adapt, you can stay at what’s already there.

I’m not really concerned about wishes of the vocal minority, I just like to read your proposals.

But I have to ask you, what exactly would change the first of your “new dungeon idea”? Instead of berserker’s I would equip soldier’s gear and then what? Gameplay is different? Did you really think that through or you’re just throwing random ideas around?

The reason people go full berserker is mainly two reasons:

• It’s possible to get berserker stats for every single piece of gear.
• Berserker stats works against most enemies faster than any other stat combination.

It’s a fundamental problem at the core.

There’s no variety on enemy parties, and stacking with berserker gear works against mostly everything .

Manuhell.2759:

If anything, it is quite the opposite. As it stands now, gear already matters…but only as long as it is zerker gear (condition damage has its own, other issues; no use discussing about them here).
Cause the large majority of the skills, being offensive, use all of those stats. But there are just few to no ways to use the other stats. Defensive stats just aren’t coupled to defensive skills, healing power is used by few skills and usually one must have dedicated builds just to use said stat, let alone raising it (and as we want to avoid having healers, it can’t even have really sensible effects, even when focusing on it; imho, they should just couple it with boon effects as well and rename it support power, enlarging its scope and thus the possible applications).
Boon duration surely has more applications…but the amount given on armors and trinkets is laughable – 11% at most, and there is a single gear giving those – giver’s/snowflake, with a “toughness/boon duration/healing power” stat distribution that won’t ever be used by anyone. Could as well just use platinum doubloon on any other gear, at least you can get to reasonable amounts with those.
Basically, either they lack uses, scale badly or are given in laughable amounts. Or a combination of the three.

As now, people already have skillful ways to use offensive stats. They just have to give skillful ways to use the other stats as well. Else there won’t ever be any point for good players to use any gear other than zerker.

Once the condition cap is fixed, you can bet sinister’s gear will be just as good as berserker’s. What people ITT want is something different. They want their sentinel’s or even nomad’s gear to have the same efficiency as a full glass cannon gear without all the disadvantages of having much less passive defense. That’s why their suggestions are like that.

Hopefully, anet designers aren’t that myopic.

Dodge mechanic makes Zerker builds viable

“Zerker” is not a build, it’s a gear type. Gear =/= build.

/thread

OP, I think you misunderstand the actual problem. Punishing dodge through your methods will only serve to make this game pretty much boring.

There is a reason I want Anet to invest in less mob and a better ai. Quite frankly, mobs are stupidly predictable with ridiculous amount of health and defiant should not be part of this game.

Why go out of the way to trait more survivability options when you can just survive off of weapon skill and dodge? Chances are, you are going to waste as little as possible since mobs are so dawm boring. If you make mobs more complicated, the ability to shutdown down the mob becomes more important. That means, it is better to actually slot cc and other goodies for once.

defiance plays a bigger roll for wearing zerker gear than dodging. Even with multiple dodging tutorials the majority of gw2 players STILL do not know when to properly dodge leading to the constant player downstate. With defiance though it removes control skills. Why use 3 cc skills just to have the 4th cc control work for sec or two only to repeat the process again when you can just trait for glasscannon with worst case scenario your teammates scrape you off the floor by their feet?