Guild Wars 2

i am with you there.
i like more the idea of what i can do with my character than how much i can do.
i like more the theme of the class than the effect it has in gameplay.
although i love content like raid i am also happy i am not the one doing the math for my class

People have always been obsessed with min-max, from day one, even in this game. Maybe you were too busy having fun to notice how many people demanded specific comps or stats for dungeons, for the Mad King fight, for… well, just about everything. People raced to finish the personal story, raced to finish world completion, and so on.

The thing is, there’s no point in hiding the numbers really — some players always want to see all the details and get involved in the math. What’s great about GW2 is that you don’t have to if you don’t want to — virtually all of the content in this game can be done without worrying about builds.

Raids aren’t designed with the “just have fun” player in mind; the rest of the game already focuses in that direction. Raids are for the people who want a bigger challenge and for whom the numbers are interesting.

So ignore raids, enjoy the rest of the game, and don’t worry about what others are doing outside your circle of folks.

i am lucky enough to play with people who just don’t give a kitten about numbers, unless we are in raid, i get that and i still enjoy it as long as i am not doing the math (because i wouldn’t even know where to start from).
i get though what OP says, it would bother me if i had to comply to certain builds or stats to play everything

Organic combat feeling is important, but so is math. I’ve played an MMO with obscure numbers once, I wasn’t happy about it when all the testing had to be done at my expense.

There definitely are people out there who just play for fun. On numerous occasions I’ve made some comment about not knowing how to do dungeons or not having the right equipment for raiding and my guild has told me to come along anyway and we’ll see what happens, and it ends up being a lot of fun even if it’s not the most “efficient” run.

I’m in a bit of a weird place though. I’m definitely willing and able to just play and have fun without worrying about the numbers and most of the time that is exactly what I do. But sometimes I find the numbers fun too. I can literally spend an entire evening theory crafting a build for one of my characters. I’m not even playing the game exactly – it sometimes involves a spreadsheet (complete with formulae), the game is just open for reference. But I find it fun. I can get really excited about the builds I put together.

Even there though I’m doing it “wrong”. I don’t follow, or even pay attention to the meta-game, I haven’t got a clue what builds are popular and I’m not trying to replicate them or improve on them. I’m just making something that interests me. For example my ranger is currently using a mix of sinister and rabid stats chosen to give a baseline of 50% critical chance, about 1,500 condition damage, power and toughness (it ended up at 1,548, 1,543 and 1,509 respectively) for no reason other than those numbers seemed good to me. But it seems to work well enough for me.

I kinda know what you mean. I grew up on games like Zelda: Ocarina of Time and Goldeneye for the n64, Pokemon Red for the Gameboy Color, KOTOR, and briefly, SWG pre-CU. For me, in the early days, playing games wasn’t “for” anything; it was just this thing that brought joy and doing it with other people brought even more joy because we were experiencing it together.

I think it was around when I started playing Rift that things took a turn for me (it was also the first time I’d played a modern, WoW-like MMO. The people I played with were great – that part of it was awesome – but the mechanics of the game… the thing to understand is, I enjoyed the game in many ways. But it fundamentally changed how I approach games. It was also not many years after I had moved from living in a rural, slow-moving town, to a fast-paced city environment, so that may have affected my approach as well.

I didn’t really know what was happening at the time, but looking back, what changed is that I went from seeing games as something you take your time with, to something you rush through as fast and efficiently as possible because it’s a competition, because time is money, because you need to be the best to qualify, etc.

And games like Rift, or GW2, with their fast travel / waypointing and other forms of speeding the transition time between activities means that for someone like me, with how my mind has been affected… if I were to just log in and wander about Lion’s Arch, for instance, I would think that I’m wasting my time. I would think that I’m not accomplishing anything and that therefore I’m burning valuable time that could be spent achieving goals.

The shift in mindset, to simplify, meant that it’s hard for me not to see games as a kind of work. Particularly when they are built in the way that games like GW2 are.

In theory, nothing is making me play them this way. But I would argue that many of the design elements are nudging me, trying to tell me what I could be doing, what I could be achieving, etc. Some of this may be an unintended consequence of usability design; for instance, looking at a story episode and seeing the icon showing a chest. Theoretically, the icon is just there to let me know whether I’ve earned the base rewards from the episode yet, so that I’m aware (usability). But it’s also enticing me, prodding at me to do the episode to get the rewards.

I don’t know what to do about this, other than that I more often play games like The Sims now because its minimal amount of structure gives me space to relax and slip back more into the mindset that I had when I was a kid. The shift in mindset is still there though. On some level, it’s a part of me now that is hard to shake.

I’ve been in games where I min maxed and ran high end raids. It was a lot of fun at the time but I play GW2 specifically NOT to do that anymore.

I love that you can level up just by exploring! And I specifically love there’s no gear to fall behind in if you take a month or so off. I’m much more laid back and having fun with GW2!

I log in,

Ah yeah PvP is boring.. nothing special.. no new stuff
> i go WvW … i see 1 or 2 players kittening around.. boring
> i go PVE or yeah nvm nothing to do..
> dungeons.. nope old boring
> fractals.. ugh again same stuff.. also in the mist with doesnt get me (fractals doesnt impact the whole game because its well not existing or back in time or whatver) something i did like about dungeons.. they where part of the story.

> Raids!! weeee oooohh nvm i am not allowed.. too much min maxing or get out.

Out of curiosity (and because they made an item instead of a toggle box) I took the shoes off some of my characters and did different content with them. The open world, dungeons, even fractals I haven’t felt that significant an impact from doing this, just because I’m so use to playing my classes (daredevil and chronomancer). Raids I haven’t tried yet, both with full gear or without it, but I’d like to give it a go at some point.

I think people are playing “for fun” now more than ever. MMOs were a lot more punishing and grindy before.

Excelsior.

I am basically preaching since several years that fun and enjoyment > theorycrafting.
There is not a single week where I am not posting about people should enjoy the game/the profession more and not get mad at every nerf or changes, that they should try stuff on their own (no JP taxis) and not play with Youtube and/or Netflix besides.

Numbers are fine and required, because it’s basically the essence of this game (or similar games). It’s more about the players which apparently can’t enjoy stuff anymore in times of Facebook and “Speed watching” (TV series at 2x speed because they ain’t got time), every 5-liner needs a “TL;DR” and such. Only a few manage to have a passion for high numbers, the other ones are just jumping the hypetrain and cry on the forums when they are not even remotely near those numbers.

Zedek.8932:

“Speed watching” (TV series at 2x speed because they ain’t got time), every 5-liner needs a “TL;DR” and such.

I had never heard of that before so I googled it. Now I kind of wish I still hadn’t heard of it.

What ever happened to doing things for the experience, for the sake of doing it instead of getting it over with as quickly as possible? What’s the appeal of spending less time having fun?

I mean I understand not having enough hours in the day for all the things you want to do, but if you’re always rushing through things are you even getting the best use of the time you do have?

Fun is subjective.

idk for me fun has always been about overcoming challenges and if that requires me to learn to play in a specific way i do it idk tho about what the rest consider fun

Greyraven.4258:

I’m a long time MMO player, I started with the UO beta, though the original GW will always be my favorite, I’m a solid GW2 player since launch. But one thing I have noticed over my years of gaming…….

No one seems to want to have fun anymore. They are obsessed with numbers, averages, and metrics…it’s like the games have become spreadsheet and parser simulations that have very little to do with going on an adventure with your friends. The vast majority conversations I have had in game haven’t been about the world, the story or what is happening it’s all been about the math behind the game and it’s disheartening.

I personally don’t want another statistics class, I want to meet new friends and have fun in a living breathing world…wasn’t that what the MMO Manefesto was about?

Years ago a guy named Jack Emmert created a MMo called City of Heroes and he didn’t want to originally show the math of the attacks, abilities and blocks….he was pretty much crucified for it and caved, but I understand his reasoning now. I can’t be the only one that feels this way can I?

Honestly this whole direction especially with the new raid has me more than a little bit sad.

I could not agree more, I think it has more to do with ego and the meta community acting like it has to go through them first to be acceptable.

Yes, yes I have fun.
I have fun with the challenge of various things like fractals or raids or dailies or even the living story.
(I don’t raid much, but enjoy the gameplay)
I enjoy the winning and the losing, because I learn from losing.
Sometimes it takes a while to learn, but learning can be fun.
There are highs and lows, and yes at times a bit of boredom.
But it is one of two games I play to relax and have fun.
If I was not having fun, I would have let the door kick me in the rear a long time ago.
I know several of my friends are not having fun and one refuses to craft, anything.
Which will throw up road blocks and prevent some items from being finished.
My heart goes out to them, but my mind says, if you really wanted it… you would do it.
Sometimes we have to make something that is not fun, fun.
It is a conscious decision one that is not always easy, but hey, its a game for me.
Games are meant to be fun and that’s why I play.

Ryou.2398:

I could not agree more, I think it has more to do with ego and the meta community acting like it has to go through them first to be acceptable.

There’s no such thing as a “meta community” and absolutely no one who has publishes data on “best DPS” builds insists that there’s only one way to play.

That’s like accusing the “fun police” of being against DPS meters — different people enjoy the game in different ways. This game makes it easy to have fun in dungeons and fractals and especially open world without worrying much about having optimized builds, so if you don’t care to research & won’t use someone else’s build, then why worry if anyone else is doing so?

Danikat.8537:

Zedek.8932:

“Speed watching” (TV series at 2x speed because they ain’t got time), every 5-liner needs a “TL;DR” and such.

I had never heard of that before so I googled it. Now I kind of wish I still hadn’t heard of it.

What ever happened to doing things for the experience, for the sake of doing it instead of getting it over with as quickly as possible? What’s the appeal of spending less time having fun?

I mean I understand not having enough hours in the day for all the things you want to do, but if you’re always rushing through things are you even getting the best use of the time you do have?

That’s so foreign to me. I adopted using faster speed recently, for non-fiction videos like news, as a way to help me digest the material (cause I have ADD and the faster speed helps me stay focused on it without zoning out). But I can’t imagine doing that with a TV show. TV shows are designed so painstakingly carefully with the speed they were crafted in, in mind. It sounds akin to wolfing down a gourmet meal without chewing.

It comes with the haves/have nots mentality that something like restrictive raids bring to a game.

Yes, you can ignore raids to a degree. Until they choose to implement things like interesting story (whether it is part of the main story line or not) and unique encounters/mechanics/fun things to do into those raids that aren’t available to the average player. At that point, the content becomes a dividing line – a wall between the unwashed masses and the privileged few that get to have the experience.

This was never clearer than with the decision to tell the Saul D’alessio story in the most recent raid wing – content that many players would enjoy experiencing (eg, actually playing through) – especially those who played GW1.

I know I will get beat on for daring to impugn the holy nature of raids as they exist in GW2 (it’s just the nature of the forums), but there is a reason many players are feeling more and more disconnected from the game – and I believe the biggest culprit is the way they chose to implement raids.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

I could not agree more, I think it has more to do with ego and the meta community acting like it has to go through them first to be acceptable.

There’s no such thing as a “meta community” and absolutely no one who has publishes data on “best DPS” builds insists that there’s only one way to play.

That’s like accusing the “fun police” of being against DPS meters — different people enjoy the game in different ways. This game makes it easy to have fun in dungeons and fractals and especially open world without worrying much about having optimized builds, so if you don’t care to research & won’t use someone else’s build, then why worry if anyone else is doing so?

I hope your being sarcastic because there is a huge meta community and multiple websites for gw2 meta, I am not accusing anyone im stating facts and experience from multiple mmorpg experiences including this ones.

I came to GW2 not having any clue about how different it could be from standard trinity mmos, and I stayed because I think Tyria is just a much more interesting game environment than most.

I think the whole bemoaning metabuild culture misses an important fact: you can give a terrible or apathetic player the most meta build of them all, but chances are they will lack the discipline to actually properly execute the meta rotation. I gravitated toward the viper condi meta on my druid without looking at a meta build site for it, and when I finally did I saw that the meta makes a few different choices than I did and I saw a fairly substantial increase in output. I still do it the not-quite meta way on my own, but for dungeons, fractals, and in the near future, raids I will probably make the meta adjustments.

I would choose to do so because I also find success fun, not the idea of min//maxing itself. The wonderful thing about GW2 is that so much of the game allows players to succeed while being nowhere near meta, and that is honestly a special characteristic I find totally utouched by raids.

I have loads of fun, but I suspect that my idea of fun doesnt equal anyone elses.
The only event in the entire game that I do is the AB meta because its actually fun, and I use the loot to bankroll my TP trading activities which is lots of fun.
I dont give a stuff about stats , traits or anything else.
Did all that sort of mindless stuff when I played WOW, so dont want more of that here.

Greyraven.4258:

No one seems to want to have fun anymore. They are obsessed with numbers, averages, and metrics…it’s like the games have become spreadsheet and parser simulations that have very little to do with going on an adventure with your friends. The vast majority conversations I have had in game haven’t been about the world, the story or what is happening it’s all been about the math behind the game and it’s disheartening.

Agreed.

Back when I joined my guild as a GW2 newbie, I constantly felt pressured to reach this and do that, and there were constantly questions about whether I have already achieved certain things, already got ascended gear etc. Not everyone was acting like that, mind you, but it was enough to put me under pressure and take away a lot of the “Let’s play to have fun!” part of the game.

When I would ask for advice on builds, one member of my guild would always respond by laughing and saying that “If you are still using exotic gear, builds don’t matter as you can’t possibly achieve anything useful.” This went on to a point where I would start spending real money on gems only to convert them to gold to be able to buy equipment.

It was awful, and no, it wasn’t just a matter with my guild+, it was a general agenda in local text chat as well, where some players even reacted in a rude manner when you were disclosing the fact that you were still struggling for gold and had no ascended equipment. They would tell you to grind fractals and meta events and call you stupid for not doing so.

+) I tried a different guild for a short period of time, but their members felt “compelled” to grind Halloween for GH decoration and spent that whole event time doing nothing else, then complained about being bored and tired of it, yet proudly comparing who had grinded the most for the day.

I personally don’t want another statistics class, I want to meet new friends and have fun in a living breathing world…wasn’t that what the MMO Manefesto was about?

As some of the responses here show, people keep defending the min-maxing and don’t understand. Their general agenda, sadly, is: “If you want all that, go play an off-line RPG, not an MMO.”

Loads of people just play for fun. They’re the ones that are mocked on the forum, though.

‘Watching netflix, press 1 and collect loot’

‘Special snowflake’

‘Want to get carried’

And so on. People who are committed enough to this game to think and talk about it while they aren’t playing tend to take a more serious approach.

There’s also the bit where just playing for fun doesn’t allow you much progress. Apart from the things you can straight up buy from the gem store and trading post, most of the desirable and interesting items require you to complete a set of very specific actions, often under certain conditions as well. Hence the need for countless guides, meta builds and number crunching.

Just doing whatever feels fun will see you booted from parties, harangued and well…mostly poor.

My post may be slightly off topic, but from the title it is not.

I will never be the best and I don’t even try to be. I play mmo’s to have fun interaction with other people.

I get some enjoy playing at a high level to achieve this or that. That’s good for them, but that’s not my goal.

All I look for is some genuine comradre whether we fail or not.

One of my fondest memories was early on when the game began. I hooked up with 4 other people in W vs W. None of us knew what we were doing.

We decided to try to take a tower. Well one person threw down a battering ram. Not at a gate, but just a wall. Not just that, but it was pointed the wrong way.

I can’t recall all that was said, but it was maybe the funniest and fun times I ever had playing a MMO.

I guess the point I’m trying to make, I would rather have an encounter like that than to get some rare drop or achieve some other status thing.

Fun died with pruning

When they were on the Esports kick they stopped adding skills and even removed anti toxin spray

They removed a couple of class mechanics during the pre HoT launch

They removed/toned down the visual effects of skills

Just lately they nerfed a couple of builds and tuned up some but not to the point of viability like with Power mesmer

Fun is subjective but it goes without saying when you take away a persons toys there going to have less fun. The game is min-max because the game has been pruned to be min-max as the devs are the ones who set the tone for a game.

Jahroots.6791:

Loads of people just play for fun. They’re the ones that are mocked on the forum, though.

‘Watching netflix, press 1 and collect loot’

‘Special snowflake’

‘Want to get carried’

And so on. People who are committed enough to this game to think and talk about it while they aren’t playing tend to take a more serious approach.

There’s also the bit where just playing for fun doesn’t allow you much progress. Apart from the things you can straight up buy from the gem store and trading post, most of the desirable and interesting items require you to complete a set of very specific actions, often under certain conditions as well. Hence the need for countless guides, meta builds and number crunching.

Just doing whatever feels fun will see you booted from parties, harangued and well…mostly poor.

Oh man you could not be more right, with how much special snowflake is abused, wow people it is called playstyle, it is an rpg with classes duh.

Ryou.2398:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

I could not agree more, I think it has more to do with ego and the meta community acting like it has to go through them first to be acceptable.

There’s no such thing as a “meta community” and absolutely no one who has publishes data on “best DPS” builds insists that there’s only one way to play.

That’s like accusing the “fun police” of being against DPS meters — different people enjoy the game in different ways. This game makes it easy to have fun in dungeons and fractals and especially open world without worrying much about having optimized builds, so if you don’t care to research & won’t use someone else’s build, then why worry if anyone else is doing so?

I hope your being sarcastic because there is a huge meta community and multiple websites for gw2 meta, I am not accusing anyone im stating facts and experience from multiple mmorpg experiences including this ones.

You claimed that there’s some group that is dictating what other people should play — there isn’t. You claimed that it’s about ego — it’s not, it’s about different ways of approaching the game.

Certainly there are people who publish results of their attempts to eke out the best numbers possible and certainly there are people who will follow in their footsteps. And certainly there are people who will /kick anyone who seems to be marching to the beat of a different drummer.

But that’s nothing close to any sort of community organized around the idea of insisting on what others should do. That’s just human beings exhibiting human nature — some like to push the limits of their abilities, some like to push other people around.

And again, what possible difference does it make that such people exist if you want to just play the game to have fun? Nothing is stopping you from any content, with the possible exception of raids … and that’s only because raids are challenging enough for 10 good players that the choice of build/comp can matter.

The original post asks, “does anyone just have fun anymore?” To answer that question, we don’t need to pay any attention at all to “the meta” because the answer is “yes, people are having fun exactly the same way they had it at launch, doing whatever they like in the game.”

With you 100%. Lately, to me at least, the game has become a giant ball of hostility. In my experience, this seems to happen with every MMO once the luster wears off and all that remain are the diehard players. More content shifts to keeping the elite few happy, rather than making a welcoming, friendly place for new players. It’s a cycle.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

I could not agree more, I think it has more to do with ego and the meta community acting like it has to go through them first to be acceptable.

There’s no such thing as a “meta community” and absolutely no one who has publishes data on “best DPS” builds insists that there’s only one way to play.

That’s like accusing the “fun police” of being against DPS meters — different people enjoy the game in different ways. This game makes it easy to have fun in dungeons and fractals and especially open world without worrying much about having optimized builds, so if you don’t care to research & won’t use someone else’s build, then why worry if anyone else is doing so?

I hope your being sarcastic because there is a huge meta community and multiple websites for gw2 meta, I am not accusing anyone im stating facts and experience from multiple mmorpg experiences including this ones.

You claimed that there’s some group that is dictating what other people should play — there isn’t. You claimed that it’s about ego — it’s not, it’s about different ways of approaching the game.

Certainly there are people who publish results of their attempts to eke out the best numbers possible and certainly there are people who will follow in their footsteps. And certainly there are people who will /kick anyone who seems to be marching to the beat of a different drummer.

But that’s nothing close to any sort of community organized around the idea of insisting on what others should do. That’s just human beings exhibiting human nature — some like to push the limits of their abilities, some like to push other people around.

And again, what possible difference does it make that such people exist if you want to just play the game to have fun? Nothing is stopping you from any content, with the possible exception of raids … and that’s only because raids are challenging enough for 10 good players that the choice of build/comp can matter.

The original post asks, “does anyone just have fun anymore?” To answer that question, we don’t need to pay any attention at all to “the meta” because the answer is “yes, people are having fun exactly the same way they had it at launch, doing whatever they like in the game.”

You can say that; you can even believe it… but it’s not some amorphous entity attributable to different play styles. As the game has shifted to more of a DPS race, the more that elitist attitude wins out. I’ve been seeing it in PUGs more and more. There’s so much verbal abuse in PvP it’s not even fun to play, anymore. The only game mode that doesn’t rely on a group dynamic is PvE and, quite frankly, once you’ve seen it all, a new story instance that takes two hours to complete isn’t all that “fun”.

Fun in games always comes from playing with friends, doesnt matter if its casual open world or hardcore min/maxing raids, its all about the people you play with. The stat spreadsheets have been going on for more than a decade, its not something that changed now.
Just take a look at old games like age of empires or diablo etc. Everyone was min/maxing efficiency since the start of games.I did a couple of w4 cm’s today with a group on ts and even though it was demanding we still had fun cause of the chatter and the memes.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

I could not agree more, I think it has more to do with ego and the meta community acting like it has to go through them first to be acceptable.

There’s no such thing as a “meta community” and absolutely no one who has publishes data on “best DPS” builds insists that there’s only one way to play.

That’s like accusing the “fun police” of being against DPS meters — different people enjoy the game in different ways. This game makes it easy to have fun in dungeons and fractals and especially open world without worrying much about having optimized builds, so if you don’t care to research & won’t use someone else’s build, then why worry if anyone else is doing so?

I hope your being sarcastic because there is a huge meta community and multiple websites for gw2 meta, I am not accusing anyone im stating facts and experience from multiple mmorpg experiences including this ones.

You claimed that there’s some group that is dictating what other people should play — there isn’t. You claimed that it’s about ego — it’s not, it’s about different ways of approaching the game.

Certainly there are people who publish results of their attempts to eke out the best numbers possible and certainly there are people who will follow in their footsteps. And certainly there are people who will /kick anyone who seems to be marching to the beat of a different drummer.

But that’s nothing close to any sort of community organized around the idea of insisting on what others should do. That’s just human beings exhibiting human nature — some like to push the limits of their abilities, some like to push other people around.

And again, what possible difference does it make that such people exist if you want to just play the game to have fun? Nothing is stopping you from any content, with the possible exception of raids … and that’s only because raids are challenging enough for 10 good players that the choice of build/comp can matter.

The original post asks, “does anyone just have fun anymore?” To answer that question, we don’t need to pay any attention at all to “the meta” because the answer is “yes, people are having fun exactly the same way they had it at launch, doing whatever they like in the game.”

Umm yes there is lol I certainly do not need your validation neither, I never claimed anyone is stopping me from doing content you sure make tons of assumptions about me when I never said any of those things, and your sure going out of your way to justify something you do not think exists.

Stop trying to be so condescending.

Ryou.2398:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

I could not agree more, I think it has more to do with ego and the meta community acting like it has to go through them first to be acceptable.

There’s no such thing as a “meta community” and absolutely no one who has publishes data on “best DPS” builds insists that there’s only one way to play.

That’s like accusing the “fun police” of being against DPS meters — different people enjoy the game in different ways. This game makes it easy to have fun in dungeons and fractals and especially open world without worrying much about having optimized builds, so if you don’t care to research & won’t use someone else’s build, then why worry if anyone else is doing so?

I hope your being sarcastic because there is a huge meta community and multiple websites for gw2 meta, I am not accusing anyone im stating facts and experience from multiple mmorpg experiences including this ones.

You claimed that there’s some group that is dictating what other people should play — there isn’t. You claimed that it’s about ego — it’s not, it’s about different ways of approaching the game.

Certainly there are people who publish results of their attempts to eke out the best numbers possible and certainly there are people who will follow in their footsteps. And certainly there are people who will /kick anyone who seems to be marching to the beat of a different drummer.

But that’s nothing close to any sort of community organized around the idea of insisting on what others should do. That’s just human beings exhibiting human nature — some like to push the limits of their abilities, some like to push other people around.

And again, what possible difference does it make that such people exist if you want to just play the game to have fun? Nothing is stopping you from any content, with the possible exception of raids … and that’s only because raids are challenging enough for 10 good players that the choice of build/comp can matter.

The original post asks, “does anyone just have fun anymore?” To answer that question, we don’t need to pay any attention at all to “the meta” because the answer is “yes, people are having fun exactly the same way they had it at launch, doing whatever they like in the game.”

Umm yes there is lol I certainly do not need your validation neither, I never claimed anyone is stopping me from doing content you sure make tons of assumptions about me when I never said any of those things, and your sure going out of your way to justify something you do not think exists.

Stop trying to be so condescending.

I’m sorry that you think that someone disagreeing with you is “condescending.” I’m also sorry that you can’t separate my reply to you about your bold claims & my separate point addressing the OP’s question.

well….
Reading this thread is sorta like seeing a very quick snapshot of the community, we have the realist, the philosophers, the debaters…. and no real answers.

I understand that nothing will change especially just because a nobody like me lamented about how far removed the idea of a massive role playing game is from the reality of making cookie cutter characters to whack the moles in a certain order and get cheese.

And that isn’t intentionally being snarky, it’s just how I honestly view MMO’s and I think why I personally keep returning to GW1, I have a few friends there who have more or less Exiled themselves, because this (GW2 I mean) isn’t anything close to the MMO manifesto video. It’s a grind game with story starting to be locked behind Raids, and before that it was all about the grind for Fractals.

I remember Ree Soesbee (whom I believe to be a brilliant writer and developer) said, “We don’t want to make the same MMO as everyone else.” Yet when all was said and done Arenanet did.

I have to wonder, did the reach exceed the grasp? And Is it okay that we settled for what was given us and not what was promised, which was a dynamic world where the things each of us did matters.

Again I know there is no real answers.

Don’t get me wrong guys this isn’t a “GW2 has failed” post, it’s more of a reflection and a taking stock as to why our particular genre of the hobby is locked on this particular set of rails.

I do know that Arenanet has some of the best people in the industry and we have an amazingly kind and respectful community compared to other MMo’s, but I do miss what could have been or could be, and I’m doubtful about purchasing the expansion if these rails are the tracks we are staying on.

Anyway thanks for letting me ramble on about the things that has been weighing on me for the past few months.

Greyraven.4258:

I’m a long time MMO player, I started with the UO beta, though the original GW will always be my favorite, I’m a solid GW2 player since launch. But one thing I have noticed over my years of gaming…….

No one seems to want to have fun anymore. They are obsessed with numbers, averages, and metrics…it’s like the games have become spreadsheet and parser simulations that have very little to do with going on an adventure with your friends. The vast majority conversations I have had in game haven’t been about the world, the story or what is happening it’s all been about the math behind the game and it’s disheartening.

I personally don’t want another statistics class, I want to meet new friends and have fun in a living breathing world…wasn’t that what the MMO Manefesto was about?

Years ago a guy named Jack Emmert created a MMo called City of Heroes and he didn’t want to originally show the math of the attacks, abilities and blocks….he was pretty much crucified for it and caved, but I understand his reasoning now. I can’t be the only one that feels this way can I?

Honestly this whole direction especially with the new raid has me more than a little bit sad.

Yes, I just have fun. Because I am not driven to worry about how “well” I am doing in the game or to compete with other players I am called “casual”. But to me, games are for fun and “working” at a game is not fun.

But a lot of people do enjoy working at games. If they do, then they are also “having fun” – its just a different kind of fun than I’m having.

What I don’t understand is people who complain that they aren’t having fun, but then keep doing it anyway. Like people who complain that they are grinding but they keep doing it.

I began playing GW2 in beta. But no matter how “cool” something was, I didn’t grind for it because I don’t like grinding. About 6 months ago, I finally had acquired enough crafting materials and gold that I could comfortably create my first Legendary Weapon. Unlike others I am not grinding for gold or mats because I already have them. That is fun for me – not having to stress about a game.

TL,DR: If you find something in a game to not be fun, don’t do it.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

I could not agree more, I think it has more to do with ego and the meta community acting like it has to go through them first to be acceptable.

There’s no such thing as a “meta community” and absolutely no one who has publishes data on “best DPS” builds insists that there’s only one way to play.

That’s like accusing the “fun police” of being against DPS meters — different people enjoy the game in different ways. This game makes it easy to have fun in dungeons and fractals and especially open world without worrying much about having optimized builds, so if you don’t care to research & won’t use someone else’s build, then why worry if anyone else is doing so?

I hope your being sarcastic because there is a huge meta community and multiple websites for gw2 meta, I am not accusing anyone im stating facts and experience from multiple mmorpg experiences including this ones.

You claimed that there’s some group that is dictating what other people should play — there isn’t. You claimed that it’s about ego — it’s not, it’s about different ways of approaching the game.

Certainly there are people who publish results of their attempts to eke out the best numbers possible and certainly there are people who will follow in their footsteps. And certainly there are people who will /kick anyone who seems to be marching to the beat of a different drummer.

But that’s nothing close to any sort of community organized around the idea of insisting on what others should do. That’s just human beings exhibiting human nature — some like to push the limits of their abilities, some like to push other people around.

And again, what possible difference does it make that such people exist if you want to just play the game to have fun? Nothing is stopping you from any content, with the possible exception of raids … and that’s only because raids are challenging enough for 10 good players that the choice of build/comp can matter.

The original post asks, “does anyone just have fun anymore?” To answer that question, we don’t need to pay any attention at all to “the meta” because the answer is “yes, people are having fun exactly the same way they had it at launch, doing whatever they like in the game.”

Umm yes there is lol I certainly do not need your validation neither, I never claimed anyone is stopping me from doing content you sure make tons of assumptions about me when I never said any of those things, and your sure going out of your way to justify something you do not think exists.

Stop trying to be so condescending.

I’m sorry that you think that someone disagreeing with you is “condescending.” I’m also sorry that you can’t separate my reply to you about your bold claims & my separate point addressing the OP’s question.

No you where responding to me, if you are responding to the ops question you make a separate post and reply to them, you where being condescending and you know it, I am far from new on the internet and especially forums.

MMO developers are in a way caught between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, they need to make game-play itself fun for a lot of people. If their game-play is not fun, they will loose people fast. That includes the game’s content. Interesting mechanics and interesting enemies make for a better game. A lot of people have fun with both game play and content.

On the other hand, an MMO thrives by keeping players playing long past the point where new content ceases to be engaging, and players are playing by rote. MMO developers use rewards to keep people playing past this point. Some (I’d say many, if not most) players find gaining rewards to be fun.

So, what we see in MMO’s is that people do play for fun. However, different people are going to have different ideas of what makes the game fun for them. The OP seems to find theory-crafting and number crunching to not be fun. He specifically mentions raids. The thing is, raids (at least before WoW came out with LFR) has always been dominated by theory crafters and number crunchers, and the players who did not do the work but want the same results. Generally, that’s because raids are content that is definitely kept alive by the pursuit of rewards.

Tl;Dr: While it may seem that other players are not having fun because they take a different approach to the game than you, it’s likely they are enjoying themselves, but value different things about the game than you do.

Doam.8305:

Fun is subjective but it goes without saying when you take away a persons toys there going to have less fun. The game is min-max because the game has been pruned to be min-max as the devs are the ones who set the tone for a game.

Very true that. Just listening to the latest Guild Chat episode made me want to strangle a certain game designer who talked about being a troll (and he is) by making things super hard for people. All seems to be about taking things to the limit now (“What new crazy thing can we implement into the game?”, “Everyone is going to love this madness!”, “People will want the legendary armor!”) instead of staying true to the game.

I am already considering alternatives to GW2, and I only started playing actively one and a half years ago…

I have 200 people in my guild and I don’t think many of them think that way at all. Maybe a couple. Less than a dozen for sure. I play the game to enjoy the game, and there are many casual people who do the same. We’re a whole lot less likely to post on the forums as a whole, but you know, that’s because we’re casual. lol

Grimheart.2853:

Organic combat feeling is important, but so is math. I’ve played an MMO with obscure numbers once, I wasn’t happy about it when all the testing had to be done at my expense.

Plus, GW2 only has the math right now, not the combat feeling. So I’ll go with the part we have. :P

OP, you might want to consider that different people have fun in different ways. Attempting to portray yourself as the one who knows how to have fun while others are less enlightened in this regard does not make them look like a scrooge.

I mostly share the OP’s feeling, even if I didn’t play UO (didn’t have internet at this time), I knew that time.

I’d see two big trends explaining that : the first one is the whole society now looks for overperforming individuals : sports, work, family life etc. Everything has to be maxed and perfect and measured… No mistake allowed, but it impairs the pleasure too.
The second one is more about the overall video game industry : once upon a time, games were advertised on the content : story, gameplay, new possibilities, look at these beautifully painted landscapes etc. Time went, and advertisement shifted more towards graphics and game performance. Don’t get me wrong : there’re still game that advertise on content and that are great (let’s just quote Witcher or Elder’s Scrolls series) and things seem to be less focused on performance.

Now, specifically about GW2 : if you think “content”, each living world episode is a matter of 5 hours play if you just do the story part. It’s more if you fully explore the new map in the beginning of course. 5 hours with a 2 months interval. Let’s just say content is really light. So it all comes down to farm and grind, and gear.
Then, add the “sadistic bias” devs have when it comes to challenging content : the more demanding a part of the game is, the more it’ll come down to training, maxing gear, learning rotations etc.

Of course, there can be fun playing with figures, and I enjoy theocrafting. Yet, at the same time, I feel like GW2 neglects its world and lore from the developement priorities.

Greyraven.4258:

No one seems to want to have fun anymore. They are obsessed with numbers, averages, and metrics…it’s like the games have become spreadsheet and parser simulations that have very little to do with going on an adventure with your friends.

That is highly subjective. From what I experienced most of the heavy theorycrafting is “contained” in the raids and higher level fractals.

It’s also about how you interact with the other players and the world. Let’s take Draconis Mons for example. Conversations in the map chat are mostly calling out events and explaining how to get there (sometimes) and explaining why you should not overnuke Ignis (always :p).

But on almost any map I have also met ppl who are new (just bought or playing a few weeks) and are totally confused. I had so many interesting conversations with them I’ve lost count. About story they missed, about how to get to points on the map, about having fun jumping into that bucket, missing, and boiling away in the sea, or about why the jumping puzzle is great fun and trying to portal them through it (and failing) when they don’t have oakheart’s reach or just being lost on the map with them.

But ppl like them are mostly silent. Too kitteno (<- the word was “shy”, but the filter kittenized it :x) post potentially stupid questions in the map chat. The vast majority is not interested in spreadsheet MMOs.

Oh yes there’s plenty of people who want to have fun. Even the elitists have fun while using DPS meters.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Raids aren’t designed with the “just have fun” player in mind; the rest of the game already focuses in that direction. Raids are for the people who want a bigger challenge and for whom the numbers are interesting.

And it would have been okay, if raids didn’t contain things that the “just for fun” players might desire. Unfortunately, they do.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Fun is subjective.

Indeed. Which is why it’s sad that Anet apparently started recently to think it’s not so, and that they can direct people to have fun the way Anet wants them to.

Ryou.2398:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

I could not agree more, I think it has more to do with ego and the meta community acting like it has to go through them first to be acceptable.

There’s no such thing as a “meta community” and absolutely no one who has publishes data on “best DPS” builds insists that there’s only one way to play.

That’s like accusing the “fun police” of being against DPS meters — different people enjoy the game in different ways. This game makes it easy to have fun in dungeons and fractals and especially open world without worrying much about having optimized builds, so if you don’t care to research & won’t use someone else’s build, then why worry if anyone else is doing so?

I hope your being sarcastic because there is a huge meta community and multiple websites for gw2 meta, I am not accusing anyone im stating facts and experience from multiple mmorpg experiences including this ones.

You claimed that there’s some group that is dictating what other people should play — there isn’t. You claimed that it’s about ego — it’s not, it’s about different ways of approaching the game.

Certainly there are people who publish results of their attempts to eke out the best numbers possible and certainly there are people who will follow in their footsteps. And certainly there are people who will /kick anyone who seems to be marching to the beat of a different drummer.

But that’s nothing close to any sort of community organized around the idea of insisting on what others should do. That’s just human beings exhibiting human nature — some like to push the limits of their abilities, some like to push other people around.

And again, what possible difference does it make that such people exist if you want to just play the game to have fun? Nothing is stopping you from any content, with the possible exception of raids … and that’s only because raids are challenging enough for 10 good players that the choice of build/comp can matter.

The original post asks, “does anyone just have fun anymore?” To answer that question, we don’t need to pay any attention at all to “the meta” because the answer is “yes, people are having fun exactly the same way they had it at launch, doing whatever they like in the game.”

Umm yes there is lol I certainly do not need your validation neither, I never claimed anyone is stopping me from doing content you sure make tons of assumptions about me when I never said any of those things, and your sure going out of your way to justify something you do not think exists.

Stop trying to be so condescending.

I’m sorry that you think that someone disagreeing with you is “condescending.” I’m also sorry that you can’t separate my reply to you about your bold claims & my separate point addressing the OP’s question.

No you where responding to me, if you are responding to the ops question you make a separate post and reply to them, you where being condescending and you know it, I am far from new on the internet and especially forums.

Sorry, but I didn’t see anything “condescending” in his post, maybe you can quote the part you object to.

And I agree with him that unless you are talking ONLY about raids, there generally isn’t anyone telling you how to play unless you pay attention to people in chat and who gives those people weight in a video game?

There are several different sites that parse character numbers and offer opinions on what builds are most effective at different playstyles. But they are run by different people (not one central voice) and they don’t contact you in-game to tell you that you have to use their site. It is completely voluntary to go to these sites and many people don’t even know they exist.

Djinn.9245:

Ryou.2398:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ryou.2398:

I could not agree more, I think it has more to do with ego and the meta community acting like it has to go through them first to be acceptable.

There’s no such thing as a “meta community” and absolutely no one who has publishes data on “best DPS” builds insists that there’s only one way to play.

That’s like accusing the “fun police” of being against DPS meters — different people enjoy the game in different ways. This game makes it easy to have fun in dungeons and fractals and especially open world without worrying much about having optimized builds, so if you don’t care to research & won’t use someone else’s build, then why worry if anyone else is doing so?

I hope your being sarcastic because there is a huge meta community and multiple websites for gw2 meta, I am not accusing anyone im stating facts and experience from multiple mmorpg experiences including this ones.

You claimed that there’s some group that is dictating what other people should play — there isn’t. You claimed that it’s about ego — it’s not, it’s about different ways of approaching the game.

Certainly there are people who publish results of their attempts to eke out the best numbers possible and certainly there are people who will follow in their footsteps. And certainly there are people who will /kick anyone who seems to be marching to the beat of a different drummer.

But that’s nothing close to any sort of community organized around the idea of insisting on what others should do. That’s just human beings exhibiting human nature — some like to push the limits of their abilities, some like to push other people around.

And again, what possible difference does it make that such people exist if you want to just play the game to have fun? Nothing is stopping you from any content, with the possible exception of raids … and that’s only because raids are challenging enough for 10 good players that the choice of build/comp can matter.

The original post asks, “does anyone just have fun anymore?” To answer that question, we don’t need to pay any attention at all to “the meta” because the answer is “yes, people are having fun exactly the same way they had it at launch, doing whatever they like in the game.”

Umm yes there is lol I certainly do not need your validation neither, I never claimed anyone is stopping me from doing content you sure make tons of assumptions about me when I never said any of those things, and your sure going out of your way to justify something you do not think exists.

Stop trying to be so condescending.

I’m sorry that you think that someone disagreeing with you is “condescending.” I’m also sorry that you can’t separate my reply to you about your bold claims & my separate point addressing the OP’s question.

No you where responding to me, if you are responding to the ops question you make a separate post and reply to them, you where being condescending and you know it, I am far from new on the internet and especially forums.

Sorry, but I didn’t see anything “condescending” in his post, maybe you can quote the part you object to.

And I agree with him that unless you are talking ONLY about raids, there generally isn’t anyone telling you how to play unless you pay attention to people in chat and who gives those people weight in a video game?

There are several different sites that parse character numbers and offer opinions on what builds are most effective at different playstyles. But they are run by different people (not one central voice) and they don’t contact you in-game to tell you that you have to use their site. It is completely voluntary to go to these sites and many people don’t even know they exist.

And I never specified if it was outside of raids only you assumed I did, but I’m also talking about fractals not just raids.

You can agree all you want but it does not Trump my experience with the game. I see tons telling about meta battle read map chat. For example someone will ask advice and people argue all the time because it is the meta and tell them that their build won’t be able to do endgame or tell them defensive stats are useless. Same goes for guilds and forums.

well in gws 1 people i use to call self-appointed elitist..use to kick you from mission groups all the time..use this build or else..that’s why i love henchmen and hero’s ..after that they lost all power. because you didn’t need them anymore, and then people could play for fun..i’ve wanted to do the raid stories, but i’m not about to change my builds, armor, weapons, and playing style just to see the story..which they want you to skip.. and get a outside voip program to get yelled at for breaking their made up rules. i play for fun.. my meter works like this work> reward/fun..i don’t do it..i left a guild and almost quit guildwars 2 when i first started.because of that guild..you are playing wrong, you have the wrong build,wrong armor, wrong weapons,wrong buff, you don’t know what you are doing, that was everyday.. that drives people way from a game, so i get why you wonder if people only play for fun anymore.

I play to have fun. My other half plays to have fun. The youngest (30 yrs old) plays to have fun. The granddaughter (10 yrs old) plays to have fun.
The oldest son …… he plays to have fun BUT his fun is min-maxing his stuff. That’s his fun. Years and years of me telling him to let me play my way (not min-max) and he’s finally learned to stop telling me and everyone else in the family how to play. He does still get frustrated at times thou, lol.