Guild Wars 2

Does such technology exist in GW2? For example, in longer fights we move in a certain fashion and tend to use some skills so that we can take down an enemy pretty quick. Can the mobs “learn and adapt” based on our actions, so that they can broaden their skillset and become a real-time challenging creature? I think more towards bosses, and it would be something very interesting, though I’m not sure how much impact that would have in data storage/transfer/sync as GW2 is very action-based.

and then what? they take over the world?

Not sure about mobs’ AI learning stuff. One day they might become self-aware and then…. SkyNet.

It would be cool if mobs remembered your previous visit to the area though. “Hey! That’s the guy that killed my cousin yesterday. GET HIM!”

In an interview they said, that they will improve the AI. If the group is hiding and shooting at the boss from a safe spot, the boss will try to hide himself.

Edit: I have found the source. It was a german fansite that summarized this presentation

Valento.9852:

Does such technology exist in GW2? For example, in longer fights we move in a certain fashion and tend to use some skills so that we can take down an enemy pretty quick. Can the mobs “learn and adapt” based on our actions, so that they can broaden their skillset and become a real-time challenging creature? I think more towards bosses, and it would be something very interesting, though I’m not sure how much impact that would have in data storage/transfer/sync as GW2 is very action-based.

As far as I’m aware given the presentation the answer is no . Also for game AI this is also usually the answer.

That would suck at least in the open world. Save that stuff for high end instances. Mobs aren’t disadvantaged by actually having to physically press keys, camera obstructions (I hate palm trees and hanging plants obstructing my view all the time), and are typically balanced (in Silverwaste) for group play and the only way one of those things can be soloed is due to relatively simple AI.

I can’t take seriously some comments, you guys know that when I say “learn and adapt” there is always a limited skillset involved, right?

Nonetheless, I tend to agree with you Agemnon. It would still be very fun to tackle, though.

I don’t think any do at the moment but it could be an interesting feature for bosses in future, particularly in raids. It would stop the encounters being too predictable.

I also really liked what they did in GW1 where they started giving popular player builds to enemies. It made the encounters a lot harder and more interesting, and it was kind of amusing seeing our own tricks turned on us.

Danikat.8537:

I don’t think any do at the moment but it could be an interesting feature for bosses in future, particularly in raids. It would stop the encounters being too predictable.

I also really liked what they did in GW1 where they started giving popular player builds to enemies. It made the encounters a lot harder and more interesting, and it was kind of amusing seeing our own tricks turned on us.

Believe you or not, even during Sorrow’s Embrace p1 I always get confused for some seconds when Tazza summons a copy of me. It’s like “wait, what?” It’s like you’re not prepared to face yourself, specially all of a sudden. :P

Testudo.4620:

and then what? they take over the world?

All bosses instead waiting in a large room separate from others, join all into the same room and wait for adventurers.

Shirlias.8104:

Testudo.4620:

and then what? they take over the world?

All bosses instead waiting in a large room separate from others, join all into the same room and wait for adventurers.

Yes when you log into lions arch they will be there waiting for you to spawn so they can kill you and loot your corpse.

Mob AI is invuln.

Frostwolve.2916:

Shirlias.8104:

Testudo.4620:

and then what? they take over the world?

All bosses instead waiting in a large room separate from others, join all into the same room and wait for adventurers.

Yes when you log into lions arch they will be there waiting for you to spawn so they can kill you and loot your corpse.

Nope, account bound items dude.

Or i would drop a bag of coin and a green item… bosses will leave Lion Arch in a few minutes

After they learn enough from watching underground bots and WvW zergs, they learn how to travel under the map as giant zergs. You’ll be running around killing mobs that are pretending to be stupid but are actually spies and scouts for the underground zerg, when all of a sudden they’ll all surface around you…

Good AI is hard. Developing a learning AI is very hard.

However, if you limit the number of potential variables it could be manageable. For example, a “slow” genetic algorithm could be implemented using parameters such as skill timing and chaining. Basically, over the course of time the AI tries random permutations of actions. Variations that are considered “successful” are bred with other successful variations. The resulting offspring are then used to generate new permutations of behavior that should, hypothetically, allow the the AI to perform better.

I call this slow since typically when you run genetic algorithms you do millions of iterations in minutes. Since this would be gated by encounters, the process would be slower. And since players are free to use any number of tactics it could take some time before optimums vs. different tactics are determined. But hypothetically, this would add a fairly large amount of unpredictability to encounters and the AI would grow more and more difficult over time.

I’m glossing over a lot of complexity here, and determining the parameters, mutation rates, evaluation criteria, etc. can be difficult just by itself. But it would certainly make things interesting. Careful attention would also need to paid to prevent the AI from becoming “too good”.

WvW bosses kills themselves and go roaming with righteous indignation on.

edit: btw, i heard that gw1 AI was better ( enemies switch target with focus, avoid aoe, use cc, etc ). Is it really gw2 ai that bad ( or just random ) ?

You’ll know it’s gone too far when those bosses are on this forum complaining about player behaviour.

Shirlias.8104:

WvW bosses kills themselves and go roaming with righteous indignation on.

edit: btw, i heard that gw1 AI was better ( enemies switch target with focus, avoid aoe, use cc, etc ). Is it really gw2 ai that bad ( or just random ) ?

Actually only SOME spells in GW1 made AI run out of it, Eles firestorm made AI run out of it which made almost every ele NOT take that spell. While others they would stay in, Spiteful spirit was one where when an enemy casted or attacked they do dmg to themselves and and AoE around them, the AI never ran from that enemy.

Adaptive AI is hard enough to design in a SP atmosphere let alone in a MMO environment. Not to mention the process power needed to do it. So I highly doubt it.

DoctorDing.5890:

It would be cool if mobs remembered your previous visit to the area though. “Hey! That’s the guy that killed my cousin yesterday. GET HIM!”

“Hey! That’s the guy that killed 10k+ bandits and can kill all of us with one hand. Oh he is also the Commander of the Pact. GET HIM!”

If by “memory” you are referring to how they remember how to throw themselves upon your weapon and die, then yes they have a very good memory.

If, however you are asking if they can judge what your next move might be based upon past experience, then sadly, no.

This is always an amusing topic to me because I know the majority of players asking for more advanced AI do not actually want it.

1. A really advanced AI would be indistinguishable from PvP. Look at how many PvE players enjoy that…

2. Morrowind closed beta a long time ago came up with some pretty advanced AI (mobs would kite you with range if you were melee, take cover if you were range, etc). They had to nerf it/almost get rid of it entirely (they only kept their day/night cycle of behavior basically) because players hated playing against it.

3. A very similar analog of advanced AI has already been done in chess. Playing against a perfect machine is not fun. People may play computers for novelty or practice but few do it for fun (vs playing live people.)

Advanced/Adaptive AI wouldn’t only just be indistinguishable from PvP, but could also surpass it. Given enough time it would be able to predict what will happen and instantly have numerous counters. It would have instant reaction time, a low to zero error margin, and develop counters that would be in meta/MLGs wet dreams.

While it would be fun and interesting at first it would turn into utter frustration.

BrooksP.4318:

While it would be fun and interesting at first it would turn into utter frustration.

Yep – it’d be the equivalent of an already pro FPS player that is handed an aimbot.

I blame anime for the ideation of AI :P

BrooksP.4318:

Advanced/Adaptive AI wouldn’t only just be indistinguishable from PvP, but could also surpass it. Given enough time it would be able to predict what will happen and instantly have numerous counters. It would have instant reaction time, a low to zero error margin, and develop counters that would be in meta/MLGs wet dreams.

While it would be fun and interesting at first it would turn into utter frustration.

A full on AI would indeed lead to more frustration than fun. I would be happy though if the mobs were to dodge, move away, use defensive actions, etc once in a while. Most mobs (save a few bosses) in the open world are just fodder and as such defeating them is not even an accomplishment but a (brainless) chore.

Sure, but that is general difficulty and has nothing to do with AI.

IIRC mobs used to be harder when GW2 first came out. Lot’s of events weren’t soloable, vets could actually pose a challenge 1v1, etc. Leveling was harder, but that might have just been because I was new…

Anyone know for sure if mob difficulty was nerfed over the years?

Tommyknocker.6089:

A full on AI would indeed lead to more frustration than fun. I would be happy though if the mobs were to dodge, move away, use defensive actions, etc once in a while. Most mobs (save a few bosses) in the open world are just fodder and as such defeating them is not even an accomplishment but a (brainless) chore.

There is already difficult AI available and I’m sure Anet has the ability to do what you want.. However you run into the issue of how GW2 is designed, it isn’t really designed to be challenging but to be easy for players. Especially since Anet has created the mindset of being inclusive, which means little to no difficulty due to a broad range of player skills and lack of.

Though I would find it absolutely hilarious if a dev did add in a “full on AI” mob just to troll the player base.

Valento.9852:

Does such technology exist in GW2? For example, in longer fights we move in a certain fashion and tend to use some skills so that we can take down an enemy pretty quick. Can the mobs “learn and adapt” based on our actions, so that they can broaden their skillset and become a real-time challenging creature? I think more towards bosses, and it would be something very interesting, though I’m not sure how much impact that would have in data storage/transfer/sync as GW2 is very action-based.

thats not good game design, because mobs are computer based, so they store info to the bit on what you are doing. With that level of AI, they would be unstoppable.

Aleksander Suburb.4287:

In an interview they said, that they will improve the AI. If the group is hiding and shooting at the boss from a safe spot, the boss will try to hide himself.

Edit: I have found the source. It was a german fansite that summarized this presentation

That was a great lecture on what’s being done for HoT. It’s unclear that this will also be rolled out in core tyria at the same time but if it is it should make life a bit more interesting.