Does the Time you put into X matter to you?
Yes it does. Which is why I don’t. (Put hours in grinding that is.) This game is just a bit “meh” to me and not worth it, never mind the trend that has developed.
Time spent always matters and I just hope beyond all hope Anet figures that out before there player base leaves them in droves. They have already proven there having a decline in players after only a year of being out. These latest moves have just made it worse.
You could have always turned money into gold to buy the armor… I could buy every T3 armor with the press of a few buttons and a large enough wallet.
What is this even about?
Vena/Var – Guardian/Thief
[Eon] – Blackgate
[Eon] – Blackgate
I’m also trying to understand the mind-set. For me, losing my fractal levels was a huge blow because I felt like I worked very hard to earn them. But honestly, this is the first game I felt that way. When I played WoW, it never bothered me when they added another tier of armor…I just got started on that one…even though I worked countless hours on the one I have. Maybe its because my time is more precious to me now that I have a career, a job, a family…so I have less time to play and as such, my time is more valuable to me now?
Its been something I have been asking myself. WHY does it bother me so much now, when it never did in the past?
It bothers you because TIME is the important investment in an MMO.
It is the “coin” you have. It represents the effort you put in, including the effort to find the time to do so.
Having that dismissed capriciously negates everything you did, everything you cared about and in the end, you.
You and your time do not matter. Only your cash.
This game has moved from honoring the two cornerstones of an MMO (persistence and time investment) into something more closely resembling an old video arcade game: just insert coin to keep playing.
The (failed) economic model of the gemstore appears to be the thing that is driving decisions. Even at the expense of integrity.
BG: 52 alts, 29 lvl 80’s. They all look good, so I am done with the game: Oct 2014
This game has moved from honoring the two cornerstones of an MMO (persistence and time investment) into something more closely resembling an old video arcade game: just insert coin to keep playing.
The only place this was violated was Fractals… where coin isn’t even involved.
Your time investment meant zilch to some armor to buy with gold, it has never meant anything to anything marked with gold as the only price.
Vena/Var – Guardian/Thief
[Eon] – Blackgate
[Eon] – Blackgate
I think that the reason you feel that way now when you did not in the past is rooted in things that deal directly with this game and whether it will decline or expand.
The answer is so simple and is something that we all overlook and underestimate at some point in our lives. If we learn and grow with it rather than fight against it we become someone more capable of shaping our own future rather than allowing only the wind of chance to do it for you. That thing is perspective and ones ease of ability to change it.
Some of us are good at changing our perspective naturally and others learn it over time. For the rest…well those are the people that clash with any idea of change. Change is the best thing that ever happened to any of us and in this case you have changed your perspective of time.
Your perspective on time is now based on a different formula than it was in your youth. Now you value the time you spend with your expanded reality more than you enjoy your time spent inside of a virtual reality. While both can be very amusing one has a return on investment that yields far larger emotional gain.
I quit playing this game for almost the last 10 months and came back about a week ago. There is only one reason can play this game now. I would give you a guess but I bet anyone that just read this already knows the answer is I changed my perspective on what Guild Wars 2 meant to me and my time. Now I can have fun with it again for different reasons and in a more limited amount. It means less to me but I find that I enjoy my play time more.
Don’t let it bother you one bit. You have made choices that diverged your path away from this game and into the beauty of life and the diversity of choice. If you get the best gear great but think nothing on it if you don’t because when you see your wife and family and if you are lucky enough to like your career you are a lot better of than many people that I have met and work with. I applaud you for doing it and for having the strength of will to ask why it is affecting you.
I will come down off of my soap box and hope that I don’t incur another infraction for it. I was very negative on the forums when I played before and I am trying to start anew. I got a few infractions and I am not sure this won’t but was discussing this very thing not five hours ago and who does not like to share.
(edit for confusing sentence, post in reference to Moshari.8570 post) (other edits because i don’t like seeing “kitten” in my post and it apparently filters the word am if used in certain sentences…)
(edited by jbrother.1340)
This game has moved from honoring the two cornerstones of an MMO (persistence and time investment) into something more closely resembling an old video arcade game: just insert coin to keep playing.
The only place this was violated was Fractals… where coin isn’t even involved.
Your time investment meant zilch to some armor to buy with gold, it has never meant anything to anything marked with gold as the only price.
Althought to be fair to the armor people, to buy human T3 armor, didn’t you have to be at least level 75? And now, you can get it at level 1 with gems….that would be time invested, if it was something you were after.
I think that the reason you feel that way now when you did not in the past is rooted in things that deal directly with this game and whether it will decline or expand.
The answer is so simple and is something that we all overlook and underestimate at some point in our lives. If we learn and grow with it rather than fight against it we become someone more capable of shaping our own future rather than allowing only the wind of chance to do it for you. That thing is perspective and ones ease of ability to change it.
Some of us are good at changing our perspective naturally and others learn it over time. For the rest…well those are the people that clash with any idea of change. Change is the best thing that ever happened to any of us and in this case you have changed your perspective of time.
Your perspective on time is now based on a different formula than it was in your youth. Now you value the time you spend with your expanded reality more than you enjoy your time spent inside of a virtual reality. While both can be very amusing one has a return on investment that yields far larger emotional gain.
I quit playing this game for almost the last 10 months and came back about a week ago. There is only one reason can play this game now. I would give you a guess but I bet anyone that just read this already knows the answer is I changed my perspective on what Guild Wars 2 meant to me and my time. Now I can have fun with it again for different reasons and in a more limited amount. It means less to me but I find that I enjoy my play time more.
Don’t let it bother you one bit. You have made choices that diverged your path away from this game and into the beauty of life and the diversity of choice. If you get the best gear great but think nothing on it if you don’t because when you see your wife and family and if you are lucky enough to like your career you are a lot better of than many people that I have met and work with. I applaud you for doing it and for having the strength of will to ask why it is affecting you.
I will come down off of my soap box and hope that I don’t incur another infraction for it. I was very negative on the forums when I played before and I am trying to start anew. I got a lot of infractions ankitten ot sure this won’t but I was discussing this very thing not five hours ago and who does not like to share.
(edit for confusing sentence, post in reference to Moshari.8570 post)
Good answer!
Althought to be fair to the armor people, to buy human T3 armor, didn’t you have to be at least level 75? And now, you can get it at level 1 with gems….that would be time invested, if it was something you were after.
If levels were the issue then the world should have blown up already over the Book that gives you free levels. Or the boosters… or crafting your way to 80 with gold from gems while using boosters.
No one cared about levels.
Vena/Var – Guardian/Thief
[Eon] – Blackgate
[Eon] – Blackgate
I’m also trying to understand the mind-set. For me, losing my fractal levels was a huge blow because I felt like I worked very hard to earn them. But honestly, this is the first game I felt that way. When I played WoW, it never bothered me when they added another tier of armor…I just got started on that one…even though I worked countless hours on the one I have. Maybe its because my time is more precious to me now that I have a career, a job, a family…so I have less time to play and as such, my time is more valuable to me now?
Its been something I have been asking myself. WHY does it bother me so much now, when it never did in the past?
Perhaps because the rules changed. If you know there is going to be new tiers at least you know what you are getting in to. Also the old gear still gives you an advantage. Imagine if they actually took away your gear.
I’m also trying to understand the mind-set. For me, losing my fractal levels was a huge blow because I felt like I worked very hard to earn them. But honestly, this is the first game I felt that way. When I played WoW, it never bothered me when they added another tier of armor…I just got started on that one…even though I worked countless hours on the one I have. Maybe its because my time is more precious to me now that I have a career, a job, a family…so I have less time to play and as such, my time is more valuable to me now?
Its been something I have been asking myself. WHY does it bother me so much now, when it never did in the past?
Perhaps because the rules changed. If you know there is going to be new tiers at least you know what you are getting in to. And old gear still gives you an advantage. Imagine if they actually took away your gear.
Yes. Arbitrarily changing the “rules of the game” is a concern for multiple reasons, not the least of which is trusting the Game Master. This can lead to the question: “what next?”
BG: 52 alts, 29 lvl 80’s. They all look good, so I am done with the game: Oct 2014
I’m also trying to understand the mind-set. For me, losing my fractal levels was a huge blow because I felt like I worked very hard to earn them. But honestly, this is the first game I felt that way. When I played WoW, it never bothered me when they added another tier of armor…I just got started on that one…even though I worked countless hours on the one I have. Maybe its because my time is more precious to me now that I have a career, a job, a family…so I have less time to play and as such, my time is more valuable to me now?
Its been something I have been asking myself. WHY does it bother me so much now, when it never did in the past?
Perhaps because the rules changed. If you know there is going to be new tiers at least you know what you are getting in to. And old gear still gives you an advantage. Imagine if they actually took away your gear.
Yes. Arbitrarily changing the “rules of the game” is a concern for multiple reasons, not the least of which is trusting the Game Master. This can lead to the question: “what next?”
I have to admit, that’s what goes through my mind….what next? Should I bother?
Yes. Arbitrarily changing the “rules of the game” is a concern for multiple reasons, not the least of which is trusting the Game Master. This can lead to the question: “what next?”
But Fractals past 30+ were nothing more than arbitrary number changes. You could have just as easily replicated the experience by taking off a piece of armor to simulate being on level X. To change the rules by actually adding rules… would usually be deemed a positive change.
Vena/Var – Guardian/Thief
[Eon] – Blackgate
[Eon] – Blackgate
Yes. Arbitrarily changing the “rules of the game” is a concern for multiple reasons, not the least of which is trusting the Game Master. This can lead to the question: “what next?”
But Fractals past 30+ were nothing more than arbitrary number changes. You could have just as easily replicated the experience by taking off a piece of armor to simulate being on level X. To change the rules by actually adding rules… would usually be deemed a positive change.
This was discussed exhaustively on a very long thread regarding Fractals.
BG: 52 alts, 29 lvl 80’s. They all look good, so I am done with the game: Oct 2014
Yes. Arbitrarily changing the “rules of the game” is a concern for multiple reasons, not the least of which is trusting the Game Master. This can lead to the question: “what next?”
But Fractals past 30+ were nothing more than arbitrary number changes. You could have just as easily replicated the experience by taking off a piece of armor to simulate being on level X. To change the rules by actually adding rules… would usually be deemed a positive change.
The question was not whether the fractals 30+ had value…the question was does the time you put into it have value? Your opinion on whether the Fractals example has value does not actually further the question. It could be tiddlywinks that you spent 300 hours collecting. Does that have value even if it is meaningless to other players? Should that time-value be a concern to devs?
I’m also trying to understand the mind-set. For me, losing my fractal levels was a huge blow because I felt like I worked very hard to earn them. But honestly, this is the first game I felt that way. When I played WoW, it never bothered me when they added another tier of armor…I just got started on that one…even though I worked countless hours on the one I have. Maybe its because my time is more precious to me now that I have a career, a job, a family…so I have less time to play and as such, my time is more valuable to me now?
Its been something I have been asking myself. WHY does it bother me so much now, when it never did in the past?
Perhaps because the rules changed. If you know there is going to be new tiers at least you know what you are getting in to. And old gear still gives you an advantage. Imagine if they actually took away your gear.
Yes. Arbitrarily changing the “rules of the game” is a concern for multiple reasons, not the least of which is trusting the Game Master. This can lead to the question: “what next?”
I have to admit, that’s what goes through my mind….what next? Should I bother?
I’m coming to understand that ANet really meant their “nothing is off the table” comment. If I view this game, not as an MMO, but as game where I should expect the unexpected, then I will be able to adapt faster to the churning they are doing. It’s getting to the point where I’m getting curious to see what and who they will upset next. Almost farcical, a game within a game. That sounds terribly jaded. Yet, I’m finding there is real humor there.
I still enjoy my server community, outdoor raids, WvW and a lot of old school MMO moments of players working together without the need to compete.
That will have to be enough, in spite of the developer.
So yes, as someone posted above, I’m changing my perspective, or maybe I’m just reaffirming my perspective that those are the things that I really value in this game. And the rest of it can just be unimportant in comparison.
That time, the time I spend in those moments with my guild and my server community matter.
I know that’s not the original question you are asking. Should time that customers invest matter to the devs? Yes. In a “normal” MMO they do.
BG: 52 alts, 29 lvl 80’s. They all look good, so I am done with the game: Oct 2014
(edited by goldenwing.8473)
The question was not whether the fractals 30+ had value…the question was does the time you put into it have value? Your opinion on whether the Fractals example has value does not actually further the question. It could be tiddlywinks that you spent 300 hours collecting. Does that have value even if it is meaningless to other players? Should that time-value be a concern to devs?
Tiddlywinks have been changing in value with every patch cycle, everything in this game has been fluctuating in value since launch since nothing is off the table for being used, re-used, retired, or un-retired.
There is no universal “time-value” to try and develop around such a non-universal concept is impossible. To some people, Fractals as they were, were stupid and adding new rules actually make them “not the same thing just with bigger numbers” is a positive step that gives higher value to their time. To others, like yourself, it comes at a cost of losing some time value on what they had already achieved.
Yes. In a “normal” MMO they do.
No they don’t.
EVE is the only game that fits your criteria. Any other MMO doesn’t give a rats kitten about how much time you spent or will spend beating a raid/dungeon before introducing the next set of gear which trivializes past gear and, particularly, devalues the harder to achieve gear.
Vena/Var – Guardian/Thief
[Eon] – Blackgate
[Eon] – Blackgate
(edited by Vena.8436)
Just wait until you get hit.
Just wait until you get hit.
Well you’re certainly not referring to WoW, since that introduces a Dungeon/Token set along with each Raid patch. You don’t even have to remotely touch the past raids to be set for the new one. Let’s not even talk about Hard Mode.
Vena/Var – Guardian/Thief
[Eon] – Blackgate
[Eon] – Blackgate
I’m also trying to understand the mind-set. For me, losing my fractal levels was a huge blow because I felt like I worked very hard to earn them. But honestly, this is the first game I felt that way. When I played WoW, it never bothered me when they added another tier of armor…I just got started on that one…even though I worked countless hours on the one I have. Maybe its because my time is more precious to me now that I have a career, a job, a family…so I have less time to play and as such, my time is more valuable to me now?
Its been something I have been asking myself. WHY does it bother me so much now, when it never did in the past?
I can answer that because they didn’t take away your current item’s. I mean sure its true your old item’s that you worked for where not BiS anymore and where kinda useless. At the same time they where still yours. Anet could have done something as simple as giving people a achievement saying “fractal lv XX completer” people would have been happy. Instead they took people hardwork and gave them nothing to show for it.
The question was not whether the fractals 30+ had value…the question was does the time you put into it have value? Your opinion on whether the Fractals example has value does not actually further the question. It could be tiddlywinks that you spent 300 hours collecting. Does that have value even if it is meaningless to other players? Should that time-value be a concern to devs?
Tiddlywinks have been changing in value with every patch cycle, everything in this game has been fluctuating in value since launch since nothing is off the table for being used, re-used, retired, or un-retired.
There is no universal “time-value” to try and develop around such a non-universal concept is impossible. To some people, Fractals as they were, were stupid and adding new rules actually make them “not the same thing just with bigger numbers” is a positive step that gives higher value to their time. To others, like yourself, it comes at a cost of losing some time value on what they had already achieved.
Yes. In a “normal” MMO they do.
No they don’t.
EVE is the only game that fits your criteria. Any other MMO doesn’t give a rats kitten about how much time you spent or will spend beating a raid/dungeon before introducing the next set of gear which trivializes past gear and, particularly, devalues the harder to achieve gear.
The new gear introduced in expansions (for multiple MMOs) is required for new content. This is consistent with progression in a gear-centric design. The old gear has not been taken away, is still available and still useful for old content (PvE).
Signing up for those games based on that design, the customer is aware, expecting and usually wanting that style of progression. Levels are not taken away.
- Final response to you.
BG: 52 alts, 29 lvl 80’s. They all look good, so I am done with the game: Oct 2014
The question was not whether the fractals 30+ had value…the question was does the time you put into it have value? Your opinion on whether the Fractals example has value does not actually further the question. It could be tiddlywinks that you spent 300 hours collecting. Does that have value even if it is meaningless to other players? Should that time-value be a concern to devs?
Tiddlywinks have been changing in value with every patch cycle, everything in this game has been fluctuating in value since launch since nothing is off the table for being used, re-used, retired, or un-retired.
There is no universal “time-value” to try and develop around such a non-universal concept is impossible. To some people, Fractals as they were, were stupid and adding new rules actually make them “not the same thing just with bigger numbers” is a positive step that gives higher value to their time. To others, like yourself, it comes at a cost of losing some time value on what they had already achieved.
Yes. In a “normal” MMO they do.
No they don’t.
EVE is the only game that fits your criteria. Any other MMO doesn’t give a rats kitten about how much time you spent or will spend beating a raid/dungeon before introducing the next set of gear which trivializes past gear and, particularly, devalues the harder to achieve gear.
The new gear introduced in expansions (for multiple MMOs) is required for new content. This is consistent with progression in a gear-centric design. The old gear has not been taken away, is still available and still useful for old content (PvE).
Signing up for those games based on that design, the customer is aware, expecting and usually wanting that style of progression. Levels are not taken away.
- Final response to you.
I think that was part of my disappointment. Since I have a life, I thought GW2 would be different, have less of that gear-grind of other MMO’s and more of a play for experiences aspect, where the things you do matter more than the things you have. Looking back, I think this is exactly my attitude within GW2. My experiences have value and the accomplishments I had within those experiences. Level 50 (or higher) in Fractals was one of those accomplishments. I could say “I did that” and even show it off when I joined PUGs and they commented “wow, we have an expert with us”. I lost that re-affirmation that I accomplished something that I used to get fairly regularly….now I am just another guy at 30 (I have not done the new fractals yet…not sure I am even going to).
And it is that way with other things as well. I am proud of my 100% exploration. It shows that I did this thing. If they suddenly removed this from the game as well, I would be disappointed. It was the time it took to accomplish this that has the value…not everyone has done it because not everyone takes the time.
I do think that ANET needs to look at time spent as a value commodity when they re-do things. Before they change anything in the game…they need to look at how much time people spent on that particular thing…I’m sure the metrics are in the game. They then need to establish a value based on that time spent. It shouldn’t matter if it is a dungeon path, or a level in WvW or even an achievement. Face it, the achievement of world exploration is harder to get (more time spent) than the achievement of “open up 10 mail items”. And in this aspect, the high level fractal runners did more of an achievement than the “dungeon master” achievement in simple time-spent…but yet, it didn’t garner a title, yet dungeon master does.
Time matters. When I get the time to play GW2, I want to have fun. When I use that valuable time to work towards something – I want that value to remain. I don’t want Credit Card swiping people stealing away the time that I spent to get something away so easily. What is even the point of playing the game then? I might as just swipe my CC at each update, get the “hottest” looking gear, and log off.
Whatever you chose to do in life has an opportunity cost. Playing GW2 requires me to take time away from other stuff that I could have been doing. ArenaNet should VALUE that, and promote their game the same way to respect the time that we have spent in it.
I have no problem in paying them each month on stuff that they release on gem store – it just needs to have a healthy balance and must be respectful of the time that the players have spent in game.
Evelyn Whitehawk | Exalted Legend | Demons’s Demise | I Transmuted My Legendary Medium Coat
Moshari, Avster, I agree with both of you. The terms that both of you are using revolve around respect. Respect for the players and their time investment.
What I’ve observed, for about the last 11 months, appears to be a consistently growing inward focus from ANet. They explain things (when they actually do), in terms of THEIR process and THEIR issues, and less and less in terms of their customers. From a business viewpoint, there could be multiple reasons for this (many of which would be speculation). The bottom line is however, ANet appears to be losing care for their customer’s experience. Not a healthy direction for a product that is basically an entertainment service.
It’s sad to see that happen.
BG: 52 alts, 29 lvl 80’s. They all look good, so I am done with the game: Oct 2014
(edited by goldenwing.8473)
My time matters to me. I don’t expect it to matter to anyone else.
Why should I care that someone else has armor that looks like mine? Why should I care if they spent money, time, or karma or [insert x here] to get that look? That has nothing to do with me whatsoever.