Guild Wars 2

The downscaling system is flawed because it lowers all stats by a percentage and it fails to consider some important factors.

Crit Chance – When your crit chance is lower, it’s not just your damage that drops. You also proc things less often. If you design a build with a crit procs you get them far less often while you’re downscaled. This is an unecessary penalty for being higher leveled than the area. The whole point of the system is to make it so you don’t 1 shot everything and you can take enough damage from mobs to actually care about them hitting you. It doesn’t need to ruin the functionality of sigils and traits.

Item levels – This is a huge problem with leveling up characters. When your gear is sufficient for the area, but your character level surpasses the area, your gear suffers the same downscaling as your base stats. This makes the gear worse than the area, so you need to constantly update your gear as you level up or else you end up weaker than the level you get downscaled to. This is also totally unnecessary and goes outside the scope of the original purpose of the system.

The second issue is the root cause behind people wanting only level 80 characters in dungeons. Sub-80 characters are usually extremely weak because of how the downscaling system works. In order to make a sub-80 character strong you have to deck them out with the best available gear for their level. If everyone did that, we’d see most of the sub-80 characters performing well in dungeons and groups wouldn’t be asking for level 80 characters. So changing the system in the way that you did actually made this problem worse. Because to be clear, most of the pre-80 characters trying to get into dungeon groups are still above the dungeon level. When you downscale a level 50-60 character who’s still wearing his level 45 gear down to level 35? He gets 1 shotted by everything in AC.

So yeah this system is totally broken and it just got a lot worse with the patch.

I completely agree.

People should be crying about this, not condi damage…

For level 80 characters, make all monsters appear (amount of health, amount of damage taken, amount of damage dealt, armor, etc.) and act as level 80 creatures. For level-appropriate characters, monsters appear as they do now.

notes/examples:

• If a level 80 and a low level character both fight the same monster, the 80 sees it with 1,000,000 health and the low level sees it with 200,000 health (or whatever). The health bar of the monster does not have to change as it shows percentages. The level 80 hits for bigger numbers, but that is compensated for by the monster’s bigger health (and armor, etc.)

• The only damage numbers you ever see are your own (outgoing and incoming) so there’s no worry of confusion from seeing big numbers (from the 80) mixed with small numbers (from the low level).

• If a monster hits both a level 80 and a low level, it does level 80 damage to the level 80 guy, and low level damage to the low level guy.

• For player levels other than 80, scale monsters appropriately to that player level.

TLDR: Store all monsters as level 80. Each individual player sees the monster with downscaled stats appropriate to that player’s level.

Edit: Some people seem to think this is complicated… but it’s no more complicated than creating downscaling algorithms for players.
But it’s better because downscaling ruins player builds (ones that depend on crit chance, for example) and players don’t like that. But scaling monsters is no big deal (to the player) since they don’t have finely tuned builds.

Yeah, the downscaling system is a bit of a farce really.

Khristophoros.7194:

People should be crying about this, not condi damage…

The noise from the condi dmg is too loud for ANET to hear about the downscaling thing. Pity, and I thought ANET “Listens” to their player base.

Lord Kuru.3685:

• If a level 80 and a low level character both fight the same monster, the 80 sees it with 1,000,000 health and the low level sees it with 200,000 health (or whatever). The health bar of the monster does not have to change as it shows percentages. The level 80 hits for bigger numbers, but that is compensated for by the monster’s bigger health (and armor, etc.)

Lulwat? That’s complicated as all kitten and would require mobs to literally have 80 different HP bars (one for each level). What’s next, adjusting HP by using the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics?

They really just need to get the numbers correct with the current system.

The current system is fine, it just needs a bit of tweaking. No need to over-complicate something

Please, do not make low level zones any easier. If they were any easier people would just sneeze on mobs and kill them. Its already pretty rediculous.

The current downscaling may be flawed, but its all that is keeping lv80s from having complete run over of newbie maps, and only just. Whenever an event daily comes around even that limitation goes to the birds fairly quickly.

By asking for it to be “fixed”, ANet will weaken low areas for the fifth time…

1) crit chanse is not affected by down scaling
2) u need to have apropriate equipment for your level! (-5lvl max)
not for the zone you are in
lest all 80’s do AC in 35lv armors LoL

saing “I don’t have level apropriate weapons and armor and I’m punished”
is as it is supposed to be

get some 3silver greens on TP and be done

There really shouldn’t be any downscaling only up.

BrooksP.4318:

There really shouldn’t be any downscaling only up.

Sp a level 80 charcter with level 80 stats can enter and just start killing everything in a 1-15 zone, with zero chance of nothing stopping it?

The level scaling seem fine when I return to low level area for bosses or nodes, or is it, cause my gear matches my level, i am not really seeing any trouble?

TJgalon.5012:

BrooksP.4318:

There really shouldn’t be any downscaling only up.

Sp a level 80 charcter with level 80 stats can enter and just start killing everything in a 1-15 zone, with zero chance of nothing stopping it?

The level scaling seem fine when I return to low level area for bosses or nodes, or is it, cause my gear matches my level, i am not really seeing any trouble?

Or all zones are based around 80s and new players are scaled up.

dobri.7820:

1) crit chanse is not affected by down scaling

Crit Chance is reduced/downscaled.

I have an idea, let’s put a man on the moon by sending them to mars, starting a colony while raising a family so that family can help build a rocket over the course of 50 years and then launch that rocket to the moon. It’s FOOL PROOF.

in my opinion. if downscaled character’s gear is higher level than the area, then the character’s stats should be the highest they can possibly be for the downscaled level.

for example: a level 56 ranger wears level 51 gear, and enters a level 35 area. the character is downscaled to 35, and should automatically have max allowed level 35 stats.

the system should take into account the best-in-slot gear rarity of the downscaled level, and if the character is wearing equal rarity or higher, than the system should treat the character as a best-statted character for the downscaled level.

examples:

at level 27, the best-in-slot gear is masterwork. if a level 65 character enters a level 27 area, and is wearing level 40 rare gear, then the character would meet the gear check requirement to have best available stats for being in a level 27 area. (because the gear is better than the best-in-slot level 27 gear)

if that same level 65 character wearing level 40 rare gear enters a level 50 area, then the character would be downscaled to 50, but would be limited to the the level 40 stats on his/her rare gear.

1 lvl 11 mobs(eagle raptor) is now able to kill a lvl 80 warrior in full ascended nights gear that’s using healing signet. is this to stop us afk in low lvl area.

working as intended, they specifically said downscaling got nerfed and upscaling buffed.

I actually enjoy it, it’s making the lower level dungeons require a little more awareness. Please don’t un-nerf it, ANet.

There shouldn’t simply be any levels…

Just make everything lv 80 and level progress is: now you get Hero points, now you get access to rare equip… to elite skill, to first spec. line… second spec line… etc.

So that you can balance everything around one base, difference then would be the equipment tier, the number of skills and spec. lines.

Wouldn’t that have been easier? Just saying

that how it was mostly in gw1, and while fun, felt more a challenge to me then needed, lol.

Dawdler.8521:

Lord Kuru.3685:

• If a level 80 and a low level character both fight the same monster, the 80 sees it with 1,000,000 health and the low level sees it with 200,000 health (or whatever). The health bar of the monster does not have to change as it shows percentages. The level 80 hits for bigger numbers, but that is compensated for by the monster’s bigger health (and armor, etc.)

Lulwat? That’s complicated as all kitten and would require mobs to literally have 80 different HP bars (one for each level). What’s next, adjusting HP by using the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics?

They really just need to get the numbers correct with the current system.

Not that I agree with the OP, this mechanic does exist in other games. They usually are “level-less” foes whose effects (outgoing and incoming) is percentage based (or more likely, it scales all damage taken to its level and what it deals out is scaled to your level).

But it’s really not necessary. This game uses a scheme that scales you to the content and level-less foes are usually for games that don’t have an inherent dynamic content scaling scheme.

Whether you are scaling players to the level of monsters, or monsters to the level of players, the end effect is the same, but confusion the second option generates (the same monster having a different level and set of stats for every enemy at the same time) is much bigger.

I did Ascalon Catacombs yesterday and it actually was fun again, because you did not kill everything super fast and had to make effort to kill some bosses.
It is perfectly fine that you can’t proc every on crit sigil 100% of the time, in time.
Also, zerker gear people finally see that stack and might slashing does not work all the time and they have to evade or dodge once in a while.

Complaints about “having to constantly upgrade your gear” are irrelevant. If you can prevail with easily with low level gear (lets say 10 levels lower than the map requirements), than that is the problem.

I have the impression that maxed out lvl 80s in dungeons now are not too superior compared to masterwork or rare item wearing lower level characters that actually have the right level for the map.

eldrin.6471:

1 lvl 11 mobs(eagle raptor) is now able to kill a lvl 80 warrior in full ascended nights gear that’s using healing signet. is this to stop us afk in low lvl area.

Uhh…that might just be a l2p issue right there. I’m still pulling mobs in low-level areas on my much less sturdy professions and doing fine. And I haven’t played this game in over a year, so I’m also re-learning how everything works.

Did they change downscaling recently or something? I pretty much play in the lower zones exclusively and I haven’t noticed anything different. I still roll through mobs like paper.

If anything, they should probably reduce your stats even more when you are down-scaled so it actually felt like a challenge in all zones.

There must be something horribly wrong with downscaling. It’s kitten wrong.

A learn to play issue? forgive me for not being elite, but is not something very wrong when a lvl 80 warrior can be killed buy a normal lvl 11 mob? what exactly is the point in ascended and legendary gear if im down scaled this badly.

BrooksP.4318:

There really shouldn’t be any downscaling only up.

Disagree. Downscaling is great feature. When level 80s can waltz around one shotting everything like in WoW it’s not good for anybody.

eldrin.6471:

A learn to play issue? forgive me for not being elite, but is not something very wrong when a lvl 80 warrior can be killed buy a normal lvl 11 mob? what exactly is the point in ascended and legendary gear if im down scaled this badly.

It does sound like a l2p issue. Why wouldn’t you want a challenge again in low level areas?

Einlanzer.1627:

BrooksP.4318:

There really shouldn’t be any downscaling only up.

Disagree. Downscaling is great feature. When level 80s can waltz around one shotting everything like in WoW it’s not good for anybody.

But it was balanced. Now they’re just made it ridiculous.

yes down scaling is great,but the changes to it since the last patch are not.

Look at this. I’m going AC with my lvl 80 full ascended assassin’s gear on my mesmer. Reminder: precision is the main attribute. My critical strike chance is 3%.

I would like everyone who states that downscaling after patch is working as intended, to tell how excluding whole stat from your character is a good thing? Or improvement?

I don’t mind adjusting downscaling to make low level areas more challenging. Well, dungeons. Open world and challenging do not come in one sentence. However, today downscaling is evidently broken.

The point of that system is not to god kitten make highlvl characters equal to lowlvl. The point is to make them be able to help lowlvl players without lowlvl ones feel too slow/squishy/weak.

It must bring the feeling that “yes, i remember that times, but hey, i dont really want them back. WTF i grinded all my asc/exo gear? For what? To be killed by some bronze elite in 1-15 area?” (im actually exaggerating, but srsly, not THAT much).

I made some actual in-game research – killed 10 mobs in Orr locations (wihtout downscaling) and in Sparkly Fen (with DS to lvl 68). With Rapid fire and self-might-buffs (6 might, actually, pet+SotP) mobs in Orr got ~80% (-5%) hp damage from my skill. In Sparkly Fen mobs got ~50% (-10%) damage. We can see from it that actually character is twice weaker in lowlvl location then it must be. That’s why how this system got broken as hell. Not by numbers/etc.

The perfect desision IMO is to just lower the Power attribute (and i think it was, but im not sure). The thing is – there are two types of actually working builds now – crit ones and condition ones. To EVERY critical-based build in location before lvl 30 you can say bye-byeeeeeeeeeeeeee right now. Condition builds dont work cuz… You know… you have NO condition damage at all! That’s about some sigils also. Stacking sigils had some minimum before (5 per stack, if im not mistaking), now in 1-15 area you have no actual attribute if you have 25 stacks. Well, okey, you have 3 power from power stacking sigil. Yeah, right.

Therefore, Spotter trait works perfect because he gives that 7% crit chance no matter in what location you are now. And that’s where you can understand that some thing works good. The other works not good. Third arent working at all and all other were cut off and forgotten to bring them back.

I have my build working in fractals/dungeons and god kitten , i do want it to work in some lowlvl location, dont you think that?

Sorry for my mistakes here, english isnt my native language =)

Why is everyone in uproar? Downscaling was originally meant to make you as powerful AS that level not make it so you can still be super powerful. That would completely ruin the point of downscaling. I run a Zerk thief with Fire and Air sigils so I rely on crit chance/dmg heavily. I can still run dungeons like AC and do FE with no problems.

Thieves have the lowest HP pool so I don’t see why so many people are disgruntled. Everyone wants to be downleveled but still be super powerful. Yeah I lose my ascended stats to Masterwork since that’s the HIGHEST TIER FOR THAT LEVEL and I lose my Ferocity because only 2 stats on lvl 35 gear. But so many people are up in arms over this. Everyone says “twice as weak as it once was” when we were NEVER weak. I could go to Sparkfly and 3 shot enemies. How is that weak!? Downscaling makes you as powerful as you CAN be for that level. So many people are hating every aspect of every thing because they made things harder for players. I can still run every dungeon on a zerk thief post-patch. So if I can do it, anyone can because in PvE stealth is not gonna kill enemies, DPS does. And if I can survive on a thief, anyone can survive with more hp/armor.

This is much better than scaling players to monsters because doing that ruins builds. For example if you depend on critical chance for your build, scaling down ruins your precision greatly disrupts your build.

However, scaling monsters is no big deal because they don’t have finely tuned builds. It’s just a matter of creating a function that takes a monster’s level 80 health (or whatever stat) and converting it to a level 55 (or whatever) appropriate health stat.

DragonicTerror.6412:

Thieves have the lowest HP pool so I don’t see why so many people are disgruntled. Everyone wants to be downleveled but still be super powerful. Yeah I lose my ascended stats to Masterwork since that’s the HIGHEST TIER FOR THAT LEVEL

That’s the point, man. Why would i play as my high lvl char then? I would rather create new one and just not waste my time. Make a profit from it. When i got to low lvl location with my main character, i want everything to be fast, but not so furious. Instead i have just good-looking character of exactly that level with exactly that gear. And by the way, you have green analog. When i was lvling my alt, i always bought him rare weapons. So, now its maby that lvl 80 will be even weaker in some situation. This reqire testing ofcourse, but sounds fair right now to me imo.

Dawdler.8521:

Lord Kuru.3685:

• If a level 80 and a low level character both fight the same monster, the 80 sees it with 1,000,000 health and the low level sees it with 200,000 health (or whatever). The health bar of the monster does not have to change as it shows percentages. The level 80 hits for bigger numbers, but that is compensated for by the monster’s bigger health (and armor, etc.)

Lulwat? That’s complicated as all kitten and would require mobs to literally have 80 different HP bars (one for each level). What’s next, adjusting HP by using the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics?

They really just need to get the numbers correct with the current system.

It’s no more complicated than having to downscale players. And if Anet is lazy they can just use the downscaling algorithm they had for players to apply to monsters. (All monsters are default level 80, and then downscaled in my scheme.)

The point is you can’t get the numbers “correct” with the current system because player builds often depend heavily on stats (particularly crit chance builds), but scaling monsters: their exact stat numbers are not as important as they don’t really have “builds”.

I suggested this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Downscaling-is-fail-Try-this/first#post5213731

In short, all monsters are stored as level 80. Downscale the monsters to the appropriate player level. (Every player who would previously have been downscaled now sees the monster as the same level as the player).

Monsters don’t have builds that easily get ruined; players do though. So this system works better than the current one.

eldrin.6471:

A learn to play issue? forgive me for not being elite, but is not something very wrong when a lvl 80 warrior can be killed buy a normal lvl 11 mob? what exactly is the point in ascended and legendary gear if im down scaled this badly.

Hard to be elite when, as I said, I haven’t played this game in over a year. I’m still re-learning it, and I’m playing much less robust classes than warrior…and not having any problems. And I don’t have ascended or legendary gear (not even in full exotics). So yeah, if a level 80 warrior in ascended is getting wrecked by a level 11 mob, that’s a l2p issue. A new patch, especially one this big, means people have to adjust.

I agree with ones, that say “it became hard and i agree with it”

I think game should be more challenging as you play it – if you became 80 lvl – you should not have problems with killing 1-15 elite. Yes, it is ANY HARD now, but srsly, you have became 80 lvl, don’t you want to have more challeging content everywhere now? I do.

Thus i think Anet actually went to the right way – making that game interesting at any moment – either you are 10 lvl on 1-15 loc, either 80 lvl on 1-15 loc

If game has had that downscaling when it had released – i would have not abandon it… because now it IS interesting, to visit low lvl locs

Teevell.1684:

So yeah, if a level 80 warrior in ascended is getting wrecked by a level 11 mob, that’s a l2p issue. A new patch, especially one this big, means people have to adjust.

If im not mistaken, he said about elite mob. And yes, warriors could be killed by gold elite easily before prepatch, i dont even want to check how is it now. But anyway.
Bro, this DS breaks builds. This DS breaks your gear. Why the hell i spent hundreds of gold for ascended items? To see them DS to green items? I could just by 3silver green crap from TP and go to low lvl locations in it. If you do downscale – dont make it break builds working on lvl 80 that i already used alot. If i made ascended – i want ascended. Make it scaling to ascended stats. Rare stats. Exo stats. Not god kitten green crap.

Mafusail.9305:

Teevell.1684:

So yeah, if a level 80 warrior in ascended is getting wrecked by a level 11 mob, that’s a l2p issue. A new patch, especially one this big, means people have to adjust.

If im not mistaken, he said about elite mob. And yes, warriors could be killed by gold elite easily before prepatch, i dont even want to check how is it now. But anyway.
Bro, this DS breaks builds. This DS breaks your gear. Why the hell i spent hundreds of gold for ascended items? To see them DS to green items? I could just by 3silver green crap from TP and go to low lvl locations in it. If you do downscale – dont make it break builds working on lvl 80 that i already used alot. If i made ascended – i want ascended. Make it scaling to ascended stats. Rare stats. Exo stats. Not god kitten green crap.

But low levels don’t have builds )
I think most low lvl locations hasn’t been calculated, to handle “80lvl builds”, thats why they shouldn’t be useful there )

I like where downscaling is. It is supposed to bring you on par with an individual of the areas level, and it does. The problem was that Exotic gear on downscales, had no comparison to any other gear at that level. This has been addressed, and now challanges are just that. Downscales STILL have a decided advantage as they have all specs and skills unlocked, plus additional player experience and weapon options. This is how it should be in my opinion. Crit chances do go down, because, as was mentioned, it should. Low levels do not have access to the sheer numerical advantage Precision and Ferocity have, as such, if downscaling, why would you? This is the point of downscaling and I feel it is in a good place now.

Hulkmaster.1724:

Mafusail.9305:

Teevell.1684:

So yeah, if a level 80 warrior in ascended is getting wrecked by a level 11 mob, that’s a l2p issue. A new patch, especially one this big, means people have to adjust.

If im not mistaken, he said about elite mob. And yes, warriors could be killed by gold elite easily before prepatch, i dont even want to check how is it now. But anyway.
Bro, this DS breaks builds. This DS breaks your gear. Why the hell i spent hundreds of gold for ascended items? To see them DS to green items? I could just by 3silver green crap from TP and go to low lvl locations in it. If you do downscale – dont make it break builds working on lvl 80 that i already used alot. If i made ascended – i want ascended. Make it scaling to ascended stats. Rare stats. Exo stats. Not god kitten green crap.

But low levels don’t have builds )
I think most low lvl locations hasn’t been calculated, to handle “80lvl builds”, thats why they shouldn’t be useful there )

But i had already made it. Why should i loose they playstyle i like when i come to a location that i like / i need? =) Why should i return to place where i was month ago (by in-game progress, if you understand clearly what i mean).

because low levels aren’t guilty for being low levels )
why should you make their gameplay worse, just killing everything that moves around? You should be at their level of dufficulty, or even higher!
Because you’re high level there, not them )

As i said before, i see a point of whole downscale system to make more strong people help weaker people do some stuff. You see a player fighting a mob – you helped him to kill it. You see a player in trouble – you revived him. Etc etc etc. But with that fact that you make me weaker to do that (which i really dont mind), do not make my personal achievements vanish to the game mechanics.

1 lvl 11 mobs(eagle raptor) is now able to kill a lvl 80 warrior in full ascended nights gear that’s using healing signet.is this to stop us afk in low lvl area.
how does ltp work when you are afk?

eldrin.6471:

1 lvl 11 mobs(eagle raptor) is now able to kill a lvl 80 warrior in full ascended nights gear that’s using healing signet.is this to stop us afk in low lvl area.
how does ltp work when you are afk?

then don’t afk in aggro range of a mob, or spec in to healing power (lol) and afk more.

When a lvl 80 player with lvl 80 exotic/ascended gear is weaker than a lvl 20 player in a low level zone, there is a problem.

eldrin.6471:

1 lvl 11 mobs(eagle raptor) is now able to kill a lvl 80 warrior in full ascended nights gear that’s using healing signet.is this to stop us afk in low lvl area.
how does ltp work when you are afk?

I think the current downscaling is ott, but using an afk death as an example of that seems a bit daft.

The ltp issue is clearly “don’t afk where a mob can kill you”.