Guild Wars 2

I just have to say, this has got to be my least favorite zone in the game — it’s like it was designed to make players mad.

The Dredge. Easily my most hated enemy. Stuns, summoning allies, knockdowns, and irritating sound effects. All of these things make the Dredge annoying to begin with. But pack them together in groups on narrow catwalks or tight tunnels, and give them a high re-spawn rate? Yeah… Recipe for frustration.

The vista in Dostoev Sky Peak is probably the pinnacle of my frustration with this area! The confusing/misleading catwalks, the swarms of enemies, and the high respawn… Veterans that can knock you back to your death. I see so many people complaining about this. Getting to it solo can take forever since you basically have to kill every single enemy on the way.

Then there is the skill point in the Blackearth Coalmine. Again, you have to skill tons of enemies to get to it… Multiple mining suits(UGH!!!!), and then the fight takes place amidst a bunch of pipes that make the camera useless. The first time I tried it, I pulled the vet into the tunnels so I could see. Of course, I was overwhelmed by re-spawn/patrols.

[Edited by moderator]

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. I’m just so glad that I’m nearly done with this zone. I hope I never see another dredge again.

I will say that Dredgehaunt wasn’t the easiest zone in the game, for me the 3 Orr zones still top as the most frustrating zones in the game.

I didn’t need to read your whole post, all I needed to read was the title and knew what this was about. Yes, F the Dredge. I hope the dragons line them up and take turns molesting them.

A lot of zones have this problem, actually. Take the majority of the skill points in Orr, they tend to be swarmed by veterans with ludicrous respawn rates. After trying to fight my way through for 5 minutes straight without making any real progress because things respawned faster than I could kill it, I simply summoned an earth shield, equipped arcane shield and mist form, rushed for the skill point, started channeling while using my shield’s 3 second invulnerability, went into mist form when that ended, then used arcane shield at the end of that and bam, skill point!

Obviously I died to the 50 thousand risen swarming me after all that, but at least I had the frigging skill point.

Dredgehaunt is definitely designed in the same manner as Orr. Solid introduction to what is to come. It’s another group area disguised in the open world.

Dredgehaunt also has two of the nastiest vistas in the game.

It’s a prelude of things to come. The level design and enemies just get worse from there with enemies that respawn even faster than the dredge there and every one of them capable of applying cripple and poison on you every attack.

Level design is one of GW2’s weakest areas no question.

Yeah, those areas can be a real pain to solo. Duoing with someone is a fun challenge if you’re up for it though. Took my buddy and I a half hour to find the right scaffolding inside there for the vista, and I cussed out my monitor when a knockback sent me flying off the top level. I view them as fun small-group areas, but yeah…goin solo it can be rough.

One thing I would like to see more of, and that would help solo players navigate zones better, are patrol routes. I know ANet has them programmed in, I see moa’s and such roaming around on them a lot. For instance, thin out the existing static mob density in certain areas, and add several roaming mobs that follow preset routes(or random routes for a bigger challenge). It might take a few updates to find the right mix of the two, but I don’t see why it can’t be done. Allow the non-uber-geared solo player an opportunity to out-think or out-maneuver dense area’s and he will thank you for it ANet.

I agree some of the zone designs in this game are borderline sadistic, but personally I think that is what makes it awesome. It almost feels like a real dungeon crawl in some areas, and I love that.

Is Dredgehaunt Cliffs the area where you try to foment a dredge revolution and have to go up spiral ramps?

If so, I agree. I really want to take to task whichever dev decided that you can’t knock enemies off ledges, but they can knock you off – a terrible way of compensating for limited AI that makes it feel like mobs have more tactical options than players.

I think I see what happened – one bunch of devs did the level architecture, putting in all these thin ramps and spirals and focusing on how cool and intricate it looked. Another bunch of devs were tweaking the combat system for the harder zones, and the two groups (or possibly individuals) didn’t notice that the overlap of their effort resulted in an area that’s no fun at all.

I expect the person who modelled all the tiny walkways didn’t imagine that they’d be crammed with mobs who have knockback attacks, or they might have put railings on.

And I expect the person who gave certain mobs knockback attacks didn’t think they’d be dumped en masse into such an area.

And I expect the person who dumped the mobs with knockback attacks into an area filled with narrow ledges and walkways didn’t realise how powerful those knockback attacks were.

And here we are. Almost anywhere in the dredge lair, it’s case of one close-range hit from a knockback attack and you fall to your death.

Those mother kittening mining suits are the most annoying mobs in the game. I’m running through lower level areas now on my way to 100% map completion, and whenever I go underground or into a mine with Dredge in it, I make a point of killing every single one of those pricks and often repeatedly.

When I was in Frostgorge Sound doing the Dredge uprising hearts, I actually revelled in watching those muppets kill each other. The fact that those events repeat forever, making that area a continuous grind of misery, pain and suffering for those mole kittens actually warms my heart.

Focksbot: They knew. Oh, they knew.

Stability is your friend when facing the Dredge.

Noviere.7309:

it’s like it was designed to make players mad.

I really do think that in some cases it was deliberately designed to frustrate players in this game. It seems to me that some who worked on this game did so begrudgingly. Whatever difficulty there is to be found in this game seems alot like ‘developer VS player’ to me.

The design flaw is mistaking hassle for challenge, using complicated travel to make the world seem bigger than it is. It feels like a design from a decade ago.

i’m not a fan of that place either. it’s right up there with caledon forest and orr.

Lornar’s pass is worse. Lornar’s pass is just huge.

Reevac.1748:

Lornar’s pas sis worse. Lornar’s pass is just huge.

43 POIs awwww helll nawwww

mulch.2586:

The design flaw is mistaking hassle for challenge, using complicated travel to make the world seem bigger than it is. It feels like a design from a decade ago.

We need to articulate this more clearly.

For me, ‘good’ difficulty (what you call challenge) is when the player has a feel for how to solve the problem, even though the execution is difficulty. The player should always feel: “If I keep trying, I’ll get the hang of it.”

‘Bad’ difficulty, which causes hassle and frustration, is when you can’t see any way of improving your chances – the game is designed to trap you in a pattern you can’t break free from, and deliberately so. I feel most negatively towards GW2 when I can almost picture the developers play-testing an area like Orr and saying, “Hmm, if they fight through this front, they’ll be able to cut through this route here quite quickly – drop a few more root and knock-down mobs around that point to make sure there’s no alternative to the slow, laborious fight.”

Dude I know that feel. I HATED Dostev, it is made ridiculously difficult with intent. Otherwise you would be able to jump straight down to that stairway without the foolish invisible wall, instead you have to line up a jump on some crazy angle with 500 dredge on your back. So glad to be passed that place…

The game is hard? Zones are challenging and not a simple grind? ABSURD!

Seriously, there are “some” annoying parts of it, but I find it amazingly fun and the challenge is enjoyable. This is probably because I did the whole zone completion with a friend and guildmate of mine; so the adventures, frustrations, and memorable times were shared.

Bottom line: Great game design.

Focksbot.6798:

mulch.2586:

The design flaw is mistaking hassle for challenge, using complicated travel to make the world seem bigger than it is. It feels like a design from a decade ago.

We need to articulate this more clearly.

For me, ‘good’ difficulty (what you call challenge) is when the player has a feel for how to solve the problem, even though the execution is difficulty. The player should always feel: “If I keep trying, I’ll get the hang of it.”

‘Bad’ difficulty, which causes hassle and frustration, is when you can’t see any way of improving your chances – the game is designed to trap you in a pattern you can’t break free from, and deliberately so. I feel most negatively towards GW2 when I can almost picture the developers play-testing an area like Orr and saying, “Hmm, if they fight through this front, they’ll be able to cut through this route here quite quickly – drop a few more root and knock-down mobs around that point to make sure there’s no alternative to the slow, laborious fight.”

You articulate that well, particularly the “bad difficulty” aspect.

Good challenging difficulty would be putting some of the design elements they use in dungeons to use, or some of what you may encounter in wvw to use.

Use traps that if disabled make it easy to go thru. Have ranged mobs shooting into a choke point, but give an avenue to flank them.

Something I’ve found challenging and good for immersion is making social/intelligent foes act social and intelligent. In this game, the intelligent humanoid mobs are no more strategic than mindless risen and creatures with very little brains. How many of them cripple, but don’t try to kite you?

If they tweaked the respawn rates on vterans and other mobs and maybe lessened the amount of knockback attacks used the area would be alot mroe fun to explore in, as it is now though im only going in to that zone as and when i absolutely need to for completion coz the dredge are worse than the risen for difficulty spikes.

vespers.1759:

Reevac.1748:

Lornar’s pas sis worse. Lornar’s pass is just huge.

43 POIs awwww helll nawwww

Nah, it’s a beautiful zone… and takes about 2-3 days to complete, did I forget to mention that all the vistas involve scaling mountains. Good times…

Awww…Lornar’s is one of my favorite zones.

It is rather unfair they can throw us off ledges and we can’t do that to them.

Although …think about how that would change gameplay in zones: peeps running around with all knockback skills in zones constantly pushing mobs off ledges. It would most likely get out of hand, but I don’t know for sure.

Focksbot.6798:

I expect the person who modelled all the tiny walkways didn’t imagine that they’d be crammed with mobs who have knockback attacks, or they might have put railings on.

And I expect the person who gave certain mobs knockback attacks didn’t think they’d be dumped en masse into such an area.

And I expect the person who dumped the mobs with knockback attacks into an area filled with narrow ledges and walkways didn’t realise how powerful those knockback attacks were.

And here we are. Almost anywhere in the dredge lair, it’s case of one close-range hit from a knockback attack and you fall to your death.

I did this vista a couple weeks ago with my main, then again yesterday with my alt, and had fun both times. The first time took forever, trying to find the path up, but once I did, it was quite satisfying. On my alt yesterday, I did get knocked off to my death once (which hadn’t happened with my main), but after I reassessed, I was able to completely avoid it.

There are three types of Dredge on the way up, and only the Oscillators have knockback. The knockback has two characteristics: it knocks you back a few feet (1/3 to 1/2 of a ramp length), and it knocks you straight back from the direction of the attack. Knowing this, it’s simply a matter of positioning yourself so the Oscillator is at the top of a ramp, and you are facing straight up the ramp while facing him. Doing this, his knockback will send you straight down the ramp, but not over the edge.

I hate when posters default to L2P arguments, but this is a clear case of a solution being entirely controllable by the player, regardless of profession. As such, I think it’s good design: it forces the player to be mindful of positioning and enemy abilities, but not to an extreme extent .

That said, I wish I could Fus Ro Dah enemies of ledges too.

Hee Haw”

There are three types of Dredge on the way up, and only the Oscillators have knockback. The knockback has two characteristics: it knocks you back a few feet (1/3 to 1/2 of a ramp length), and it knocks you straight back from the direction of the attack. Knowing this, it’s simply a matter of positioning yourself so the Oscillator is at the top of a ramp, and you are facing straight up the ramp while facing him. Doing this, his knockback will send you straight down the ramp, but not over the edge.

I think you’re mixing up two different zones (as I was when I made that post). It sounds like you’re talking about the vista where you have to go up straight ramps that turn at right-angles to one another, making your way towards a central area with a veteran and the vista. I also did that and had no problems with it.

But I’m talking about a dredge area where the ramp is a tight circular spiral. What happens is you get stuck with two enemies right in front of you, and an oscillator will come down the spiral from higher up, hitting you consistently at such an angle that you go flying far, far off the edge. There’s absolutely no way he can hit you back a little way down the spiral because, as I say, of the tightness of the spiral.

edit Here’s a picture. Imagine an oscillator standing at any point up the ramp from you. His attack is always going to hit you off the edge of the ramp, not down it.

http://gw2.mmorpg-life.com/img/map_pois/Frostgorge_Sound_poi_Vista_image_Gw2_1_2012_09_07_15_01_01_031.jpg

did you know that after that vista, there’s an entire jumping puzzle? one that’s full of enemies on narrow passages? and this jumping puzzle is hundreds of feet above ground, and if you die, you have to go all the way back from the waypoint to get to the end?

yeah, it’s kind of sadistic alright.

BrunoBRS – are you talking about the jumping puzzle that ends in a veteran fight on a tiny ledge?

I quite enjoyed that one, but yes, it’s sadistic – firtly, it’s one of the jumping puzzles that relies on dodgy physics – some jumps are only possible through mid-air turning and landing on thin air. Secondly, to put a vet at the end in such a tiny space (and one that turns into lots of little creatures half way through the fight) is just plain evil.

Focksbot.6798:

I think you’re mixing up two different zones (as I was when I made that post). It sounds like you’re talking about the vista where you have to go up straight ramps that turn at right-angles to one another, making your way towards a central area with a veteran and the vista. I also did that and had no problems with it.

But I’m talking about a dredge area where the ramp is a tight circular spiral. What happens is you get stuck with two enemies right in front of you, and an oscillator will come down the spiral from higher up, hitting you consistently at such an angle that you go flying far, far off the edge. There’s absolutely no way he can hit you back a little way down the spiral because, as I say, of the tightness of the spiral.

edit Here’s a picture. Imagine an oscillator standing at any point up the ramp from you. His attack is always going to hit you off the edge of the ramp, not down it.

http://gw2.mmorpg-life.com/img/map_pois/Frostgorge_Sound_poi_Vista_image_Gw2_1_2012_09_07_15_01_01_031.jpg

Gotcha. I was talking about Dostoev Sky Peak. I’ll have to reserve my opinions of the Frostgorge one until I revisit it.

There’s a jumping puzzle after the Bore Lynch vista in Frostgorge??

Focksbot.6798:

BrunoBRS – are you talking about the jumping puzzle that ends in a veteran fight on a tiny ledge?

I quite enjoyed that one, but yes, it’s sadistic – firtly, it’s one of the jumping puzzles that relies on dodgy physics – some jumps are only possible through mid-air turning and landing on thin air. Secondly, to put a vet at the end in such a tiny space (and one that turns into lots of little creatures half way through the fight) is just plain evil.

i don’t recall if it was a veteran (there was a veteran on the first puzzle, but that had plenty of space to fight), but there were enemies on tiny ledges at the end of it. their chills and the puzzle’s hazards combined made for a recipe of rage.

i think we’re talking about different puzzles though. the one i’m talking about is on SW dredgehaunt cliffs, where there are all those dredge turrets. there’s a jumping puzzle to reach the vista there, you fight a mob, get the treasure, and instead of leaving, there’s a tiny hole in the wall you can go through for a second puzzle.

the puzzle itself would be fun, weren’t it for the forced combat situations and the fact that dying meant going all the way back to the waypoint, running to the first puzzle, doing the first puzzle, heading down the hole, and THEN starting the puzzle all over again.

Focksbot.6798:

Hee Haw”

There are three types of Dredge on the way up, and only the Oscillators have knockback. The knockback has two characteristics: it knocks you back a few feet (1/3 to 1/2 of a ramp length), and it knocks you straight back from the direction of the attack. Knowing this, it’s simply a matter of positioning yourself so the Oscillator is at the top of a ramp, and you are facing straight up the ramp while facing him. Doing this, his knockback will send you straight down the ramp, but not over the edge.

I think you’re mixing up two different zones (as I was when I made that post). It sounds like you’re talking about the vista where you have to go up straight ramps that turn at right-angles to one another, making your way towards a central area with a veteran and the vista. I also did that and had no problems with it.

But I’m talking about a dredge area where the ramp is a tight circular spiral. What happens is you get stuck with two enemies right in front of you, and an oscillator will come down the spiral from higher up, hitting you consistently at such an angle that you go flying far, far off the edge. There’s absolutely no way he can hit you back a little way down the spiral because, as I say, of the tightness of the spiral.

edit Here’s a picture. Imagine an oscillator standing at any point up the ramp from you. His attack is always going to hit you off the edge of the ramp, not down it.

http://gw2.mmorpg-life.com/img/map_pois/Frostgorge_Sound_poi_Vista_image_Gw2_1_2012_09_07_15_01_01_031.jpg

the worst part about that vista (and many others that involve fighting your way through vertical areas) is when you reach the top, and some random mob you haven’t killed, but is miles below you won’t disengage for whatever reason, and because of that you can’t get the vista.

Cerulean.5142:

I will say that Dredgehaunt wasn’t the easiest zone in the game, for me the 3 Orr zones still top as the most frustrating zones in the game.

+1, Orr is the most…..annoying zone full of mobs, everywhere you go, your’e getting pulled left, get pulled right, stun this stun that ;-;

However….I love Orr at the same time, the drop rate is awesome, easy to farm…and most of all enjoyable par from dying alot xD

BrunoBRS.5178:

the worst part about that vista (and many others that involve fighting your way through vertical areas) is when you reach the top, and some random mob you haven’t killed, but is miles below you won’t disengage for whatever reason, and because of that you can’t get the vista.

When that happens, I just log out to character selection and then log back in. It clears the combat mode, and lets you view the vista

^ that’s a workaround rather than a fix, the issue remains, and that’s a problem.

but yeah, you have to log out and back in (or try running really far without attracting more agro) to get the vista.

Focksbot.6798:

Is Dredgehaunt Cliffs the area where you try to foment a dredge revolution and have to go up spiral ramps?

Nope, that is Frostgorge Sound. DC has no revolt (i.e., no green-colored Dredge) and the ramps are around rectangular towers.

once i figured out the route which took the longest time in it self. i got the vista i spent three times the time on that one zone then i did whole zones after or before. now that i know the right route i havent had as much trouble with it but i do hate the ability to get knocked off when you cant knock them off

Nothing wrong with that zone, had zero trouble getting the zone completion solo. You should be glad there’s a bit of difficulty cuz it’s rare in MMOs these days. If there is anything to complain about, it’s that mobs spawning at you are breaking immersion.

I just finished the area solo yesterday, it seriously does require much effort and being on your A game sometimes. I’ll admit i got a bit frustrated a few times but the difficulty was refreshing. I do however hate the Dredge with a passion now though

Guys, the Dredge are just misunderstood mutants from Kryta that were exiled to the dark underbelly of Tyria due to their misfigured faces, and then later they were disturbed by Charr mining operations that destroyed their new home. Instead of mindlessly killing the Dredge you should try talking to them, and you’ll see they are really not all that bad.

They recently nerfed one of the vista/jumping puzzle to make it easier. The one near SE wp so that part shouldn’t be a problem any longer

I hate dredge too, but only for the reason that they can’t be blinded (which is ironic, coz they live underground, so you’d think a normal blast of light would blind them easily, kinda like nightvision goggles).

Slightly offtopic – I think the dredge are blind (considering their technology I would bet on them using some sort of sonar to guide themselves). Since you can’t blind something that is already blind, then you can’t blind dredge (though you could be able to make them deaf if you had access to some sort of sonic tech).

On topic – I actually did that zone solo on my mesmer prior to the nerf on puzzle (is it true? I haven’t gone back since) and the jumping puzzle is doable if you don’t aggro the dredge mobs before or have someway to loose aggro (invisibility comes to my mind). After you begin, the random dredge in the scaffolding shouldn’t be problematic at all, and even the boss mob guarding the chest should be relatively easy.

On the second jumping puzzle, I moved past it like a breeze – you can easily outrun most mobs before they attack you (ie without entering combat mode). There are some that must be killed in order to cross some gaps, but if compare to other jumping puzzles like the one on Gendarran Fields with multiple mobs using reload or Dark Reverie with tricky jumps and mobs waiting for you if you survive the fall, this one is really easy.

Anyway, if you’re struggling with the puzzle feel free to ask me for help in game (currently in Ring of Fire, name= Ossë Oiomure) or write more details around here, some places are easy if you find the right place to be, else they can be really hard.

it would be more immersive if they took out all of the land-based walls between zones, and made tyria a true map. when zoomed out in the world map, all i can see are the dark outlines of zones. i don’t know of many RL places that have such borders.

i don’t like the brown outlines of tall mountains to separate each zone. it should just be one continuous map to play in/on, to save on loading screens. these “mountain walls” also assist in immersion-loss, because if i am running from mobs, all i need to do it think, “if i can make it to the portal to the next zone, i am good”. if the walls weren’t there, it would make things more exciting.

Slightly off topic: Lornar’s Pass is beautiful! I loved completing that zone.

However, the Dredge are absolutely terrible and that area definitely drove me to hate them even more. They respawn like crazy, and the knockdowns are near impossible to deal with. Gosh!

I tried many times to get the vista. Sadly, after getting insta-killed by knockoffs several times, having 3 or more dedge spawn on top of me many times, and having to deal with their mechs that are 99% immune to my condition damage build (thus requiring me to use my Elite to just kill one), I gave up on this hell hole.

I immediately packed my bags and headed for Bloodtide Coast instead. I had about 10x more fun in the Coast and fighting Risen than I did suffering in that horrible mole-infested, badly tuned zone. Screw 100% map completion. It isn’t worth going back in there.

rgrwng.4072:

it would be more immersive if they took out all of the land-based walls between zones, and made tyria a true map. when zoomed out in the world map, all i can see are the dark outlines of zones. i don’t know of many RL places that have such borders.

i don’t like the brown outlines of tall mountains to separate each zone. it should just be one continuous map to play in/on, to save on loading screens. these “mountain walls” also assist in immersion-loss, because if i am running from mobs, all i need to do it think, “if i can make it to the portal to the next zone, i am good”. if the walls weren’t there, it would make things more exciting.

Erm…everyone would love this but, of course, it’s not remotely feasible. The zones don’t exist for cosmetic reasons, they have to be there. No current game engine could have an immensely detailed landscape like GW2 and be one huge zone with no walls. Comps would either freeze or fry upon log-in with an entire server population in the same zone.

Noviere.7309:

Dostoev Sky Peak

I will never forget this name. LOL

Obsidian.1328:

rgrwng.4072:

it would be more immersive if they took out all of the land-based walls between zones, and made tyria a true map.
…

Erm…everyone would love this but, of course, it’s not remotely feasible. The zones don’t exist for cosmetic reasons, they have to be there. No current game engine could have an immensely detailed landscape like GW2 and be one huge zone with no walls. Comps would either freeze or fry upon log-in with an entire server population in the same zone.

Just adding on to this. MMO Games that do have “seamless maps” tend to implement them internally as individual maps like GW2 does. They’ll just partially render the map as you get close to the edge. If you happen to move along the edge, you end up having to load a lot of partially rendered maps, so it really would not work effectively with the size of GW2 maps.

You can still tell you’re crossing over because mobs, other players, interactible objects, and the like will “phase” in and out of existence.

It’s slightly better for immersion, but could end up being murder on your system.

In order of pain/annoyance:

1. Orr
2. Underwater Krait
3. Dredgehaunt
4. Getting your teeth drilled with no novicaine

Thing I learned in this game, if you can’t beat it now, try later. I had a hard time in Lv40s so I skipped them. But when I reached Orr, boy, it made those areas I skipped like cakewalk. I beat all Orr Vistas/PoI and get accustomed to it and actually having fun.

Now, after doing my dailies, monthlies, and farming some Plinx runs, I go back to those other areas I skipped and found them very easy (even the Hearts).

Sarisa.4731:

Obsidian.1328:

rgrwng.4072:

it would be more immersive if they took out all of the land-based walls between zones, and made tyria a true map.
…

Erm…everyone would love this but, of course, it’s not remotely feasible. The zones don’t exist for cosmetic reasons, they have to be there. No current game engine could have an immensely detailed landscape like GW2 and be one huge zone with no walls. Comps would either freeze or fry upon log-in with an entire server population in the same zone.

Just adding on to this. MMO Games that do have “seamless maps” tend to implement them internally as individual maps like GW2 does. They’ll just partially render the map as you get close to the edge. If you happen to move along the edge, you end up having to load a lot of partially rendered maps, so it really would not work effectively with the size of GW2 maps.

You can still tell you’re crossing over because mobs, other players, interactible objects, and the like will “phase” in and out of existence.

It’s slightly better for immersion, but could end up being murder on your system.

Actually, WoW can/does render the world seamlessly (barring the continent/expansion transitions). There was a post on reddit about 6 or so months ago showing what everything looked like with the distance fog turned off, and yes, you could see the entire continent at once. Now, granted, the poly counts and texture sizes are lower—-but that’s what LOD and distance fog is for.

There’s nothing stopping Arenanet (at least at a basic theory level) from making the game have seamless zones, but I think their engine needs a ton of work before it could ever get to that point. The distance fog being as aggressive as it is with the strictly divided zones, indicates to me that the engine most likely isn’t optimized very well and/or makes poor usage of available memory.

If GW2 has legs and keeps going, I wouldn’t be horribly surprised if, 4 years or so down the line, there’s an engine revamp that allows for the zone portals to be eliminated. They’ve got a long way to go before that, though.