Guild Wars 2

quoted from Anet

“Dungeon Instance Owner

We’ve changed the way dungeon instances work. Currently, the instance is “owned” by the first person to enter the instance; this creates some issues when that person leaves or is kicked from the party. To prevent the dungeon instance from closing when any one person leaves, we’ve removed the concept of a dungeon “owner.” If everyone leaves an instance, it will close, but you don’t have to worry about one person leaving your party and having to restart your dungeon! Our goal here is to make instances more user-friendly, as the hidden owner concept was often hard to understand and resulted in people losing progress randomly when someone left."

all I wanted to say was I LOVE YOU GUYS! thank you for finally changing this! I don’t know why you had it this way to start but im sure you had a reason. but thank you 1,00 times for the change you made my day w00t!

where was this said? is it already in the game or planned for that feature pack? too good to be true.

As I mentioned in my thread on the topic, it would be great to have the number of needed kick votes increased to 3, to minimize griefing resulting from this change. Personally I always started my own dungeon parties to avoid kick-happy couples. Now there’s nothing to kep me safe. 2 votes have always been a bad idea, anyway. Not even a majority.

Honestly, this could be a very bad thing. There is nothing keeping anyone safe in a dungeon anymore. I could carry people through arah and get kicked @ the last boss just because I said “I don’t like rat-people”. I hope that this is implemented wisely, otherwise, I foresee a lot of QQing.

That being said, it IS a good thing, I just hope it’s implemented so that griefing is kept to a minimum.

Asmodeus.5782:

As I mentioned in my thread on the topic, it would be great to have the number of needed kick votes increased to 3, to minimize griefing resulting from this change. Personally I always started my own dungeon parties to avoid kick-happy couples. Now there’s nothing to kep me safe. 2 votes have always been a bad idea, anyway. Not even a majority.

I would also like to see the ability to vote ‘no’ on a kick. several times I’ve had someone suggest a kick, and everyone asks “why?” then the option to kick just sits there, able to be accidentally clicked during a boss fight.

This could be a bad thing, yes. I can agree that the potential to backfire is there.

On the other hand, for someone like me that typically only runs with my husband and a couple of guild members this is lovely. Considering the number of times we’ve been booted because the person that started it got dc’ed because her connection sucks.

Being able to hang around and explore in a dungeon after it’s completed will also be a nice side effect to this change. Before I always felt rushed to jump over and collect the chest before the group disbanded – really liking this! TY ArenaNet

This one is like double edged sword. If dungeon owner leaves(at his/her own will) or dc we no longer get kicked which is good. But I’m sure there will be a lot of player starting to abuse this new feature since dungeon owner is no longer immune to vote kick especially Fractal/Arah.

2 people can kick the whole group without having to worry about getting boot out of the instance. And I’m sure we’ll be seeing more people selling dungeon/Fractal in near future.

Party leader can determine number of votes to kick and who has kick immunity. That would solve everything.

Why not simply add a (team size – 1) vote requirement to kick someone? With a five people team it would require at least four players for a kick which is in my opinion a pretty unanimous decision. There should also be a timer for every kick request (i.e. 20 seconds) during which every voting player is presented with a YES|NO option which can be changed until timer runs out.

The whole party leader sounds so wrong and no single person should have that much power in a party. Instances are about team play not leadership.

Wait, now I can kick the seller, AND finish the instance myself? This Feature Pack is getting better and better! [/sarcasm]

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Asmodeus.5782:

As I mentioned in my thread on the topic, it would be great to have the number of needed kick votes increased to 3, to minimize griefing resulting from this change. Personally I always started my own dungeon parties to avoid kick-happy couples. Now there’s nothing to kep me safe. 2 votes have always been a bad idea, anyway. Not even a majority.

I actually agree with you. I would have liked to increase the vote count a majority with this change, but unfortunately not all the pieces of code around party votes are set up in a way to make this a quick and easy change.

We were aware of this issue, but felt that holding back an improvement to the base experience on account of trolls was unfair to users that are playing nice.

Stealing instances using the LFG tool, or booting people for no reason (or to give your buddy the rewards for no work) at the end of a run are bannable offenses and should be reported.

Having a game message inform you that abcd.1234 joined your party (so that you have their account name) and saving party chat would both be features that allow us to report griefers more consistently.

It is know that some griefers have been reported hundreds of times with no ban being handed out.

Kurr.4179:

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Asmodeus.5782:

As I mentioned in my thread on the topic, it would be great to have the number of needed kick votes increased to 3, to minimize griefing resulting from this change. Personally I always started my own dungeon parties to avoid kick-happy couples. Now there’s nothing to kep me safe. 2 votes have always been a bad idea, anyway. Not even a majority.

I actually agree with you. I would have liked to increase the vote count a majority with this change, but unfortunately not all the pieces of code around party votes are set up in a way to make this a quick and easy change.

We were aware of this issue, but felt that holding back an improvement to the base experience on account of trolls was unfair to users that are playing nice.

Stealing instances using the LFG tool, or booting people for no reason (or to give your buddy the rewards for no work) at the end of a run are bannable offenses and should be reported.

Having a game message inform you that abcd.1234 joined your party (so that you have their account name) and saving party chat would both be features that allow us to report griefers more consistently.

It is know that some griefers have been reported hundreds of times with no ban being handed out.

If the party kicks are not increased then i i agree with this poster.We need some kind of protection against griefing.And his suggestion is good enough.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Asmodeus.5782:

As I mentioned in my thread on the topic, it would be great to have the number of needed kick votes increased to 3, to minimize griefing resulting from this change. Personally I always started my own dungeon parties to avoid kick-happy couples. Now there’s nothing to kep me safe. 2 votes have always been a bad idea, anyway. Not even a majority.

I actually agree with you. I would have liked to increase the vote count a majority with this change, but unfortunately not all the pieces of code around party votes are set up in a way to make this a quick and easy change.

We were aware of this issue, but felt that holding back an improvement to the base experience on account of trolls was unfair to users that are playing nice.

Stealing instances using the LFG tool, or booting people for no reason (or to give your buddy the rewards for no work) at the end of a run are bannable offenses and should be reported.

Hello Ryan,
thanks for this information.

Any tips on how to get name of those trolls that kick you from your own isntance quickly?
There usually isnt time to write anything down or to make any screenshots.

Thanks in advance!

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Asmodeus.5782:

As I mentioned in my thread on the topic, it would be great to have the number of needed kick votes increased to 3, to minimize griefing resulting from this change. Personally I always started my own dungeon parties to avoid kick-happy couples. Now there’s nothing to kep me safe. 2 votes have always been a bad idea, anyway. Not even a majority.

I actually agree with you. I would have liked to increase the vote count a majority with this change, but unfortunately not all the pieces of code around party votes are set up in a way to make this a quick and easy change.

We were aware of this issue, but felt that holding back an improvement to the base experience on account of trolls was unfair to users that are playing nice.

Stealing instances using the LFG tool, or booting people for no reason (or to give your buddy the rewards for no work) at the end of a run are bannable offenses and should be reported.

This is true sir, but unfortunately, our reports have gone on deaf ears. There was a “heited” player that was kicking legitimate Arah sellers/runners for months, and was reported a significant amount of times, but nothing happened. It’s happened to me, it’s happened to all my dungeon friends, but literally nothing has come of it that we’ve seen. People have been screen-capped bragging about it, but still nothing.

By the way: Is there any official statement that explicitely states that dungeon selling is allowed? Don’t want to bring up a discussion about that, just being curious.

dungeon sellers can now be kicked O.o!!!

aRestless.6213:

By the way: Is there any official statement that explicitely states that dungeon selling is allowed? Don’t want to bring up a discussion about that, just being curious.

Moderator source
Hi everyone,
Just posting to inform you all that selling dungeon runs its NOT against the rules. People are free to do so. Please, exercise extreme caution to avoid getting scammed.
Thanks for your understanding

Great. So now not only I will get kicked while selling the Dungeon I solo’d, they will also get the instance for themselves so they can finish and invite their buddies.

And before you say Abusing LFG is a bannable offense, I would like to remind you such thing has never happened as I’m victim of a known dungeon LFG griefer for monthes and nothing has been done.

Thank you very much.

Maybe getting kicked could just create a copy of the instance for the kicked member so they don’t lose progress either.

Still a good change though.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

I actually agree with you. I would have liked to increase the vote count a majority with this change, but unfortunately not all the pieces of code around party votes are set up in a way to make this a quick and easy change.

We were aware of this issue, but felt that holding back an improvement to the base experience on account of trolls was unfair to users that are playing nice.

Stealing instances using the LFG tool, or booting people for no reason (or to give your buddy the rewards for no work) at the end of a run are bannable offenses and should be reported.

Are there ways for you to improve on our ability to report them?
I feel that currently there’s a high barrier on the players to report this behaviour, partly (but not solely) caused by the party chat disappearing and having a hard time tracing who was in your party.

Shinzan.2908:

Maybe getting kicked could just create a copy of the instance for the kicked member so they don’t lose progress either.

Still a good change though.

Yeah, perma-Arah p4 instances sound great Party of 5 = 5 instances. Then get more friends in, etc

No one would run dungeons anymore. A 500 man guild would split up to each do 1 dungeon for the entire guild pretty much.

Remember, kicking someone in order to replace them at the end of the instance is an account bannable offense.

This feature will allow you to kick an arah seller once or twice, and will result in you having to buy a new account and start from level 1 if he decides to report you.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Remember, kicking someone in order to replace them at the end of the instance is an account bannable offense.

This feature will allow you to kick an arah seller once or twice, and will result in you having to buy a new account and start from level 1 if he decides to report you.

And what if somebody doesn’t like you 2/3rd through the dungeon?

When is something not a valid reason to kick someone out of the group?

Where’s the line between griefing and valid behaviour?

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Harny.6012:

Hello Ryan,
thanks for this information.

Any tips on how to get name of those trolls that kick you from your own instance quickly?
There usually isn’t time to write anything down or to make any screenshots.

Thanks in advance!

There appears to be some nice debug messages for party join/leave that I’m going to see if I can turn into “LFG Messages” in the chat log which should make this easier…

Thank you Ryan, it’s much appreciated.

To everyone else:
No being kittens if he can’t do it in an easy or timely fashion. At least he’s trying.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Harny.6012:

Hello Ryan,
thanks for this information.

Any tips on how to get name of those trolls that kick you from your own instance quickly?
There usually isn’t time to write anything down or to make any screenshots.

Thanks in advance!

There appears to be some nice debug messages for party join/leave that I’m going to see if I can turn into “LFG Messages” in the chat log which should make this easier…

Thanks Ryan, that would be very useful for us.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

I would have liked to increase the vote count a majority with this change, but unfortunately not all the pieces of code around party votes are set up in a way to make this a quick and easy change.

It is just baffling, to me, that making a vote-to-kick require more than two players is somehow a big deal. But of course, I am not a coder so I really don’t know what is involved. I’ll have to give this one the benefit of the doubt.
Regardless, even if it does require a significant time investment, I think working on this change would be well worth it.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

We were aware of this issue, but felt that holding back an improvement to the base experience on account of trolls was unfair to users that are playing nice.

I guess I don’t really see how a two-vote requirement to kick from a party is really an “improvement to the base experience.” Why would anyone need this functionality? I fail to see why two people should be able to remove someone from a party, unopposed. Maybe it is a slight convenience in open-world PvE or WvW — somebody goes AFK or leaves the area and you want to be able to swap them out on the fly. But if they can’t even get three players to pay enough attention to authorize the kick, then they are probably better off just leaving the party and re-inviting. I seriously doubt there is anyone out there who would scorn this change. Even if a higher vote requirement were confined to dungeons, it would be a huge improvement.

Fyrebrand.4859:

It is just baffling, to me, that making a vote-to-kick require more than two players is somehow a big deal. But of course, I am not a coder so I really don’t know what is involved. I’ll have to give this one the benefit of the doubt.

I totally understand why it would be. first, you have to record the second vote rather than have that second vote initiate the kick. then you have to be sure the 3rd vote wasn’t done by one of the first 2. You basically have to redesign the kicking system.
I wouldn’t expect it to take days, but I can see why it would take more than a few hours, while that debug message turned into LFG message could probably be done in minutes since it’s something that’s already in the game, that just needs to be enabled for this purpose.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Asmodeus.5782:

As I mentioned in my thread on the topic, it would be great to have the number of needed kick votes increased to 3, to minimize griefing resulting from this change. Personally I always started my own dungeon parties to avoid kick-happy couples. Now there’s nothing to kep me safe. 2 votes have always been a bad idea, anyway. Not even a majority.

I actually agree with you. I would have liked to increase the vote count a majority with this change, but unfortunately not all the pieces of code around party votes are set up in a way to make this a quick and easy change.

We were aware of this issue, but felt that holding back an improvement to the base experience on account of trolls was unfair to users that are playing nice.

Stealing instances using the LFG tool, or booting people for no reason (or to give your buddy the rewards for no work) at the end of a run are bannable offenses and should be reported.

How can we report when our chat goes away when we are kicked…. or it doesnt say who kicked us.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Asmodeus.5782:

…Personally I always started my own dungeon parties to avoid kick-happy couples. Now there’s nothing to kep me safe.

Stealing instances using the LFG tool, or booting people for no reason (or to give your buddy the rewards for no work) at the end of a run are bannable offenses and should be reported.

This will only work as a disincentive if (a) people take the time to report getting kicked and (b) if ANet acts quickly and decisively. Currently, many people lack faith that ANet takes action against folks who troll-kick or “steal” an instance (for their friends).

Obviously, there are going to be times when it’s hard to tell what really happened, but that should be rare. Yeah, there are always “two sides” to any story, but sometimes one side represents “the Earth is flat” and can be ignored.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Harny.6012:

Hello Ryan,
thanks for this information.

Any tips on how to get name of those trolls that kick you from your own instance quickly?
There usually isn’t time to write anything down or to make any screenshots.

Thanks in advance!

There appears to be some nice debug messages for party join/leave that I’m going to see if I can turn into “LFG Messages” in the chat log which should make this easier…

Perfect!! That would be awesome, and a very good method to (hopefully) prevent trolling.

• This was the only protection against someone griefing your instance.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

There appears to be some nice debug messages for party join/leave that I’m going to see if I can turn into “LFG Messages” in the chat log which should make this easier…

So now you’ll know who griefed your instance. But what good is that when reports always fail to end up in action: how many times has the well-known Arah griefer been reported? Are we going to have to return to using gw2lfg to protect our parties?

• If you’re soloing and you leave the instance (in particular DC briefly), it dies? If your entire party DCs, the instance dies?
• If person A hasn’t unlocked an explorable to a dungeon, can person B open it, invite A, then leave the dungeon for A to finish? Is there a point to having locked dungeons if this is possible?

There’s one thing that really worries me about this. I normally open my own instances to “protect” me I guess. I’ve had one run once, with 4 others, all of the same guild. The run had some major failings and mistakes.
With this system they can just kick me (because we can’t blame other guildies of course >> ….) without any repercussions.

Another time half way through the dungeon I had to brb for 5 min, and the party members talked of kicking me, but realised not to because I was the instance owner.

I’m not sure this change is an improvement.

If the instant owner LEAVES, then it should pass on to another player. It should not pass on if the instance owner is kicked.
__
It also could be potentially troublesome for dungeon sellers. Who might kicked after their solo run.

I think putting this in place without setting up some safety measures to prevent kick abuse is a bad idea.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Harny.6012:

Hello Ryan,
thanks for this information.

Any tips on how to get name of those trolls that kick you from your own instance quickly?
There usually isn’t time to write anything down or to make any screenshots.

Thanks in advance!

There appears to be some nice debug messages for party join/leave that I’m going to see if I can turn into “LFG Messages” in the chat log which should make this easier…

That would be awesome.

And guys? I’m really happy and encouraged to see this level of feedback and engagement with the community. Thank you. Please keep it up.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

I actually agree with you. I would have liked to increase the vote count a majority with this change, but unfortunately not all the pieces of code around party votes are set up in a way to make this a quick and easy change.

We were aware of the possible issues with the instance ownership change, but felt that holding back an improvement to the base experience on account of trolls was unfair to users that are playing nice.

Stealing instances using the LFG tool, or booting people for no reason (or to give your buddy the rewards for no work) at the end of a run are bannable offenses and should be reported.

What happens if someone wants to sell a dungeon path and sets up a lfg post just so some random abusers join in, kick him and sell the dungeon again?
Besides all his work is gone and he will never have any chance of getting it back, does this one person have the chance for justice when he’s the only person who reports those guys?

Will you Arenanet actually take actions against those ppl?

Shinzan.2908:

Maybe getting kicked could just create a copy of the instance for the kicked member so they don’t lose progress either.

Still a good change though.

I fancied that idea for a while but the more I think of it, the more apparent if becomes that copy instances would be very exploitable able dungeons sellers. It’d need something to keep that in check.

What I would like to see in the long term is when someone is kicked from a group that is in a instance like a dungeon or “other” that the person who initiated the kick must state the reason why they removed them from party via a drop down list and then has to submit the kick to a anet logging system.

The system then would log all of the people in the party for reference to the report. All Local,Party, and Whisper logs for each player in the group would also be kept for evidence. The system also will keep track of who takes the place of the kicked individual and should be able to track if the person who replaced them is on a friends or guild list.

Then an automated system would send a in game mail message to the person who was kicked listing the reason for the kick and a button at the bottom for a dispute. If the dispute was selected then it would trigger a red flag for anet to take action and review the materials took above.

After 48 hours you can no longer dispute a kick and records of that kick are purged.

Keep in mind you can not track things being said on Team Speak, vent, ect.. but an empty chat long even though it says nothing it actually says something.

If people knew a system like this was in place people wouldn’t be so trigger happy with kicking people. At least I think so.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Harny.6012:

Hello Ryan,
thanks for this information.

Any tips on how to get name of those trolls that kick you from your own instance quickly?
There usually isn’t time to write anything down or to make any screenshots.

Thanks in advance!

There appears to be some nice debug messages for party join/leave that I’m going to see if I can turn into “LFG Messages” in the chat log which should make this easier…

Upvote for awesome suggestion and something I genuinely hope for. Please try to get this into the feature patch if at all possible!

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Harny.6012:

Hello Ryan,
thanks for this information.

Any tips on how to get name of those trolls that kick you from your own instance quickly?
There usually isn’t time to write anything down or to make any screenshots.

Thanks in advance!

There appears to be some nice debug messages for party join/leave that I’m going to see if I can turn into “LFG Messages” in the chat log which should make this easier…

That’s a nice band-aid, but it still doesn’t fix the overall issue. I appreciate the new changes to dungeon owners though. Hopefully you can change the kick-voting system soon.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Harny.6012:

Hello Ryan,
thanks for this information.

Any tips on how to get name of those trolls that kick you from your own instance quickly?
There usually isn’t time to write anything down or to make any screenshots.

Thanks in advance!

There appears to be some nice debug messages for party join/leave that I’m going to see if I can turn into “LFG Messages” in the chat log which should make this easier…

But this won’t help much with preventing griefing. Increasing the required votes to 3 or 4 won’t do much for dungeon sellers either.
A good solution would be to allow LFGers to enable or disable kicking from the party when they make the LFG. This should also be displayed in the LFG entry.

Hooray! The last barrier for LFG abusers has been taken! Let’s be happy to get kicked for guild members and friends! Seriously, i’ve met a lot of LFG abusers and reported them often enough… What happend? They play everyday since that report and keep kicking people for guild members.

“[…] but you don’t have to worry about one person leaving your party and having to restart your dungeon!”

The victims have to restart the dungeon. The abusers dont have to worry. Justice hits GW2.

Actually, as said earlier in the thread, is it possible to flag a difference between kick and leave?

So if the Dungeon Instance owner is kicked the dungeon ends, the kick flags the dungeon to end completely.

But if the instance owner leaves for some other reason then it passes to the next player as the flag was not triggered.

Question:
Person A opens the instance.
Person B joins the party and the instance.
Person B kicks person A out of the Party.
(Yes in a Group of 2 players you can actually kick OR leave the other one)

Will Person A be forced out of the dungeon because there’s no owner system anymore? Would the first step against dungeon sellers. They do the dungeon and get kicked while the new members finish the dungeon :o

Add Does anyone know what anet thinks about dungeon sellers? Never read anything about that. o.O

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Harny.6012:

Hello Ryan,
thanks for this information.

Any tips on how to get name of those trolls that kick you from your own instance quickly?
There usually isn’t time to write anything down or to make any screenshots.

Thanks in advance!

There appears to be some nice debug messages for party join/leave that I’m going to see if I can turn into “LFG Messages” in the chat log which should make this easier…

Excellent stuff, thanks for taking the time to work on this and keep in touch with the player base.

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Harny.6012:

Hello Ryan,
thanks for this information.

Any tips on how to get name of those trolls that kick you from your own instance quickly?
There usually isn’t time to write anything down or to make any screenshots.

Thanks in advance!

There appears to be some nice debug messages for party join/leave that I’m going to see if I can turn into “LFG Messages” in the chat log which should make this easier…

Best for us players would be a message like this:

We have 2 situations: Leave and Kick.

• Leave:
  “Player A left the group.”
• Kick 1:
  “Player A has been kicked by player B and player C.” (Player B started the vote and player C accepted it.)
• Kick 2:(Other option)
  “Player B requested to kick player A.”
  “Player C has accepted the request and kicked player A.”

Ryan Diederich.8179:

Asmodeus.5782:

As I mentioned in my thread on the topic, it would be great to have the number of needed kick votes increased to 3, to minimize griefing resulting from this change. Personally I always started my own dungeon parties to avoid kick-happy couples. Now there’s nothing to kep me safe. 2 votes have always been a bad idea, anyway. Not even a majority.

I actually agree with you. I would have liked to increase the vote count a majority with this change, but unfortunately not all the pieces of code around party votes are set up in a way to make this a quick and easy change.

We were aware of the possible issues with the instance ownership change, but felt that holding back an improvement to the base experience on account of trolls was unfair to users that are playing nice.

Stealing instances using the LFG tool, or booting people for no reason (or to give your buddy the rewards for no work) at the end of a run are bannable offenses and should be reported.

How can someone report him if there is no chat history ? They just enter in your dungeon and kick you… How should you know who entered ?

Ryan Diederich.8179:

[…]

Stealing instances using the LFG tool, or booting people for no reason (or to give your buddy the rewards for no work) at the end of a run are bannable offenses and should be reported.

But when you get kicked, the party chat disappears. And some people may not even use the chat at all.

There should be a new tab in the contacts panel:

• Recent contacts.
  Each time you are in a party with someone , or get whispered or trade with someone directly, their name would appear there for the remainder of the logging session, and next to it what they are to you: “Party member”, “Trade partner”, “Whisperer”, etc.