Guild Wars 2

Yey dungeon gold rewards + better boss rewards!

I think this is a really good move, but there is something more important imo…
Are you also going to lower the hp of bosses and make the damage higher?

I dont play in dungeons alot because the most bosses are boring hp tanks. And getting hit by a boss is rarely a problem. There is no real need for other mechanics; just higher damage. (And lower the amounts of hp).

Just my opinion ^^

I don’t think higher damage is the answer.

A lot of bosses have plenty of one shot mechanics that if you don’t dodge/block/reflect in some what you’ll die. It needs to be more complicated than that. Just adding more attacks that need to be dodged won’t make the game more interesting.

Yeah, but atm every dungeon is “easy” to do with 5 berserker warriors.
Shouldn’t that be some kind of alert that boss damage output is too low?
Btw, i dont ask for more 1-shot attacks, but for an higher total amount of damage output.

Dragonar.1342:

Yeah, but atm every dungeon is “easy” to do with 5 berserker warriors.
Shouldn’t that be some kind of alarm that boss damage output is too low?

No, it’s a sign that bosses only use slow one-shot attacks that you either dodge or you take and die, regardless of your max health and/or armor.

This topic is moot, anyway. One thing the GW2 community has told ArenaNet is that the game does not need fun content – the grinders here will do anything as long as it’s the most effective way to get a reward. Improving the dungeons so they would be fun is pointless when all the players here want is to grind anyway.

Dragonar.1342:

Yeah, but atm every dungeon is “easy” to do with 5 berserker warriors.
Shouldn’t that be some kind of alarm that boss damage output is too low?
Btw, i dont ask for more 1-shot attacks, but for an higher total amount of damage output.

No it means that many bosses (not all) already do to MUCH damage, as in, whats the point of running toughness or vit, when you get one shot anyway? Might as well run zerker and kill faster since defense stats dont actually make you survive longer

I wish the bosses in dungeons were more dynamic instead of hp tank battles. For example, the final boss in Sorrow’s Embrace. Sure it’s not the most difficult, but the dynamics of that fight were just awesome. If the bosses were more like that I would be one happy camper.

JUST increasing damage would mean even more reason to go full berserker. Is that what you are after? If so ignore the rest of this otherwise read on!

People are already dodging or cheesing their way through the bosses by stacking on top. Lowering the damage and increasing the frequency of normal attacks(so effective damage output could stay the same) would be better. So instead of attacking 2 right now it would attack 4 times. You still have only two dodges unless you are using a build that is designed to use dodging as defense mechanism. The effective damage mitigation through dodging would be cut by around 50%.

Certain things in the game (mainly risen) have mechanics like building frenzy stacks on hit but how about adding a double edged version of that to some enemies? They will build frenzy stacks on hit but if their attacks miss or get evaded then they will suffer in some way. Similar in style to how a GW1 build based on Price of Failure , Spirit of Failure and Reckless Haste might work. Right now failing to dodge a frenzy stacking hit is always bad but with the above you could turn the missed dodge into an advantage for your team.

The big telegraphed attacks could get a damage increase but reduce their frequency. The time in between can now be filled with more of the less powerful normal attacks. Bosses should also start bluffing with their big telegraphed attacks. A bluff should look very similar to the big attack but only do about the same damage as a normal attack. This would force people to actually pay attention and not just dodge every time you see ____. Of course all of this would require cleaning up the animation, particle affects and telegraph for the attacks. They would have to be similar enough for people to mistake one for the other but different enough for people to tell them apart(color differences would be out of the question …).

Boss fights are also completely ignoring one of the mechanics in the game. Those ‘____ on kill’ sigil effects and traits(and food but builds shouldn’t require consumables to work). Nearly all boss fights right now is just a single enemy for the full duration rendering those things useless.

TL;DR Boss fights should have more ‘deaths by a thousand cuts’ and less ‘one shot’. Double edge mechanics would also make things more interesting.

UrMom.4205:

I wish the bosses in dungeons were more dynamic instead of hp tank battles. For example, the final boss in Sorrow’s Embrace. Sure it’s not the most difficult, but the dynamics of that fight were just awesome. If the bosses were more like that I would be one happy camper.

I assume you mean the SE story mode boss? The explorable mode bosses certainly doesn’t stand out in any way. In part I agree because there is a nice mechanic. On the other hand I am not a fan of fights that completely negates a character’s skills and all or most of their traits.

@Khisanth.2948
When talking about increasing the total amount of damage output i’m also talking about increasing the frequency of attacks.
But there are alot of bosses that have a high frequency of attacks. So i believe thats not for al bosses the solution.
Some bosses have to do higher hits, some need an increased frequency of attacks and others need both.

In others words, I totally agree with you.

I also have an idea: remove the aoe circles, that should make players more aware of whats happening around them (ofc change the aoe attacks from bosses so it doesn’t become impossible to do)

Khisanth.2948:

UrMom.4205:

I wish the bosses in dungeons were more dynamic instead of hp tank battles. For example, the final boss in Sorrow’s Embrace. Sure it’s not the most difficult, but the dynamics of that fight were just awesome. If the bosses were more like that I would be one happy camper.

I assume you mean the SE story mode boss? The explorable mode bosses certainly doesn’t stand out in any way. In part I agree because there is a nice mechanic. On the other hand I am not a fan of fights that completely negates a character’s skills and all or most of their traits.

Yeah I was talking about the story mode, my bad should have mentioned that. You make a good point with the fights that negate a character’s skills. Maybe if it was a mix, like large health pool where you get to burn down the boss, use your skills, etc. but then have some extra mechanics that make it more dynamic. Another fight that comes to mind is in AC explorable, the one where you have to lift and pull the glowy things ghostbusters style to arm the traps, then disable the bosses shield then burn him down. As much as I first hated that fight looking back on it it was pretty awesome. That suspense in trying to arm the traps while the boss is attacking and friendlies being downed and stuff was pretty epic.

Dragonar.1342:

@Khisanth.2948
When talking about increasing the total amount of damage output i’m also talking about increasing the frequency of normal attacks.
But there are alot of bosses that have a high frequency of attacks. So i believe thats not for al bosses the solution.
Some bosses have to do higher hits, some need an increased frequency of attacks and others need both.

In others words, I totally agree with you.

I also have an idea: remove the aoe circles, that should make players more aware of whats happening around them (ofc change the aoe attacks from bosses so it doesn’t become impossible to do)

I honestly can’t think of a boss with high attack frequency. By “high” I mean ones that attacks as fast as players. Most feel like they are attacking at around half the speed of players.

As for the AoE circles. They could remove them but then they’ll have to replace the animation for many of them since they use the same animation as player skills. Without the circles it becomes confusing. Let say I am fighting an ice elemental with a teammate who is an ele using a scepter and shatterstone shows up. Do I stay or leave? In theory it would be 50/50 split for being helpful and harmful but in pracitice it would mean teaming up or fighting near an ele would be undesirable.

It is bad enough with the circles. Fighting Vevina alongside a staff mesmer can be very confusing and I don’t mean the condition! How about Diplomat Tarban with someone using Feedback? “There are 4 feedback bubbles, 1 is helpful the other 3 might kill me. Do I feel lucky today?”

There is a place for clarity and a place for “battlefield confusion” but I am not sure where that line should be drawn.

Maybe it’s nice to get more gold since that seems to be all that matters in this game but imo they should design some better gear, as in better looking gear. My female human guardian doesn’t want ANY of the gear from the dungeons and my mesmer only one…that’s it. So really, less funny hats and more actually cool looking armour is what I’d like to see in this game.

Gehenna.3625:

Maybe it’s nice to get more gold since that seems to be all that matters in this game but imo they should design some better gear, as in better looking gear. My female human guardian doesn’t want ANY of the gear from the dungeons and my mesmer only one…that’s it. So really, less funny hats and more actually cool looking armour is what I’d like to see in this game.

Pants for everyone. I am not joking! Really PANTS(okay not just pants they should have shirts too, not looking for half naked characters). Also actual pants not an pair of pants with random bits cutout of them, my character is smart enough to use mothballs.

Khisanth.2948:

Dragonar.1342:

@Khisanth.2948
When talking about increasing the total amount of damage output i’m also talking about increasing the frequency of normal attacks.
But there are alot of bosses that have a high frequency of attacks. So i believe thats not for al bosses the solution.
Some bosses have to do higher hits, some need an increased frequency of attacks and others need both.

In others words, I totally agree with you.

I also have an idea: remove the aoe circles, that should make players more aware of whats happening around them (ofc change the aoe attacks from bosses so it doesn’t become impossible to do)

I honestly can’t think of a boss with high attack frequency. By “high” I mean ones that attacks as fast as players. Most feel like they are attacking at around half the speed of players.

As for the AoE circles. They could remove them but then they’ll have to replace the animation for many of them since they use the same animation as player skills. Without the circles it becomes confusing. Let say I am fighting an ice elemental with a teammate who is an ele using a scepter and shatterstone shows up. Do I stay or leave? In theory it would be 50/50 split for being helpful and harmful but in pracitice it would mean teaming up or fighting near an ele would be undesirable.

It is bad enough with the circles. Fighting Vevina alongside a staff mesmer can be very confusing and I don’t mean the condition! How about Diplomat Tarban with someone using Feedback? “There are 4 feedback bubbles, 1 is helpful the other 3 might kill me. Do I feel lucky today?”

There is a place for clarity and a place for “battlefield confusion” but I am not sure where that line should be drawn.

Cof path 1 boss has quick attacks i believe.. Problem is that he doesn’t have any range attacks. (perhaps this one does need some more hp)

Beside that, many bosses have alot of aoe attacks. But ofc the aoe circles prefend me from having a hard time. CoE anyone? dodging againt the wall after 2/3 seconds when you see the aoe circles.

For the confusing problem.. Perhaps white circle for our own and other players? Or give it a little bit different collor? THAT must be the problem the devs had with the aoe attacks! Many games give mobs and bosses special aoe attacks anyway, but would be a little bit too much to ask for an attack from all the mobs remake :P
Boss attacks that are avaible to players have red circles and other boss attacks not? Or would cause that too much confusion?

I would advise devs to try in 1 dungeon to speed up the attacks and remove some of the aoe circles. That could make it really interesting (looking at you cof path 1).

Dragonar.1342:

Yeah, but atm every dungeon is “easy” to do with 5 berserker warriors.
Shouldn’t that be some kind of alert that boss damage output is too low?
Btw, i dont ask for more 1-shot attacks, but for an higher total amount of damage output.

Don’t do them with five berserker warriors…probably solved. If you’re not having fun, change what you’re doing.

By changing it so five berserker warriors have more trouble you’re screwing everyone who doesn’t use five berserker warriors. The game can’t reasonably be balanced arount this.

if cc and support were viable it’d be a lot more fun

milo.6942:

if cc and support were viable it’d be a lot more fun

This I agree with. However, we use CC and support in my guild all the time and we still clear content. We play the way we want, because it is fun. Playing five zerker warriors isn’t fun to us, so we don’t do it.

Does it take us longer to complete dungeons. You bet.

But since we’re having fun in dungeons and beating them, it doesn’t much matter to us.

If the Molten Facility and Aetherblade Retreat are an indication of how they plan to design future dungeons (and, more importantly – revamp existing dungeons), then I have no concern – the future is bright.

That said, I think there are several mechanics they can incorporate more often to make dungeons more fun and engaging.

The two things that could be improved are a. how much teamwork is required to down a boss and b. the need for player reaction in fights (outside of simply dodging out of a red circle).

For teamwork, I would point to the last fight in the dredge fractal, Mai Trin, the Taskmaster in SE path 2 or Ghost Eater as prime examples.

For reactive fights, the best examples are Giganticus Lupicus, the last boss in SE Story, and War Minister Shukov in SE path 2.

To the point of CCs – yes, I would like to see them have a greater impact on dungeon fights, but there are other mechanics they could take advantage of as well – environmental levers/weapons, player placement, boss placement (kiting and keeping a boss in/away from a particular area), the need for target switching, add management.

While there is a place for “dps boss while avoiding red circles,” I would like to see more diversity in the fights.

Finally, the one thing I don’t like is dungeons that are obviously designed for pugs who never type or talk to one another. While there is a place for that kind of gameplay, I would love to see at least 2 of the 3 paths in each dungeons designed for actual team gameplay (note that I am not saying anti-PUG, but rather anti- "PUGS who refuse to communicate).

Vayne.8563:

Dragonar.1342:

Yeah, but atm every dungeon is “easy” to do with 5 berserker warriors.
Shouldn’t that be some kind of alert that boss damage output is too low?
Btw, i dont ask for more 1-shot attacks, but for an higher total amount of damage output.

Don’t do them with five berserker warriors…probably solved. If you’re not having fun, change what you’re doing.

By changing it so five berserker warriors have more trouble you’re screwing everyone who doesn’t use five berserker warriors. The game can’t reasonably be balanced arount this.

Ehh i dont understand your comment..
Your saying that when i dont do it with 5 berserker warriors it’s fun? Normally i play support ele so..

2nd part: You say that when making it harder for full berserker parties, i am screwing it for everyone who does not use five berserker warriors? Do i understand that you want it all easy? (if not, sorry)

Part of the reason bosses are damage sponges with one hit kill moves for you to dodge is because GW2 moved away from the “holy trinity” of Tank – Healer – DPS.

Because of this, the bosses have to be designed as a fight against mechanics, not a fight against damage. Since it is a fight against mechanics, the highest DPS squad has the exact same survivability as the highest HP+Armor squad and will therefore finish the content more quickly.

The problem is endemic to the design philosophy.

Blaeys.3102:

If the Molten Facility and Aetherblade Retreat are an indication of how they plan to design future dungeons (and, more importantly – revamp existing dungeons), then I have no concern – the future is bright.

That said, I think there are several mechanics they can incorporate more often to make dungeons more fun and engaging.

The two things that could be improved are a. how much teamwork is required to down a boss and b. the need for player reaction in fights (outside of simply dodging out of a red circle).

For teamwork, I would point to the last fight in the dredge fractal, Mai Trin, the Taskmaster in SE path 2 or Ghost Eater as prime examples.

For reactive fights, the best examples are Giganticus Lupicus, the last boss in SE Story, and War Minister Shukov in SE path 2.

To the point of CCs – yes, I would like to see them have a greater impact on dungeon fights, but there are other mechanics they could take advantage of as well – environmental levers/weapons, player placement, boss placement (kiting and keeping a boss in/away from a particular area), the need for target switching, add management.

While there is a place for “dps boss while avoiding red circles,” I would like to see more diversity in the fights.

Finally, the one thing I don’t like is dungeons that are obviously designed for pugs who never type or talk to one another. While there is a place for that kind of gameplay, I would love to see at least 2 of the 3 paths in each dungeons designed for actual team gameplay (note that I am not saying anti-PUG, but rather anti- "PUGS who refuse to communicate).

Aetherblade Retreat = loved it, did it like 20 times
Molten Facility = hated the easy trash mobs and the first boss was way too easy. 2nd boss was fantastic!
But its made by the people of the living story teams, so i’m affraid they wil not be the ones to really ’’fix’’ the dungeons.

An important part of teamwork was always in the trinity (not that i want that).
Giganticus lupicus is obviously the dungeon boss who took most time creating, can’t see them do that with all bosses.

That beeing said, you make good points. Hope we will see that when they release a new dungeon. But i believe, for the existing dungeons, we can’t expect big mechanical changes. Only changed numbers.

I’d rather see the encounters be given interesting mechanics and more importantly be made unskippable.

Dragonar.1342:

Vayne.8563:

Dragonar.1342:

Yeah, but atm every dungeon is “easy” to do with 5 berserker warriors.
Shouldn’t that be some kind of alert that boss damage output is too low?
Btw, i dont ask for more 1-shot attacks, but for an higher total amount of damage output.

Don’t do them with five berserker warriors…probably solved. If you’re not having fun, change what you’re doing.

By changing it so five berserker warriors have more trouble you’re screwing everyone who doesn’t use five berserker warriors. The game can’t reasonably be balanced arount this.

Ehh i dont understand your comment..
Your saying that when i dont do it with 5 berserker warriors it’s fun? Normally i play support ele so..

2nd part: You say that when making it harder for full berserker parties, i am screwing it for everyone who does not use five berserker warriors? Do i understand that you want it all easy? (if not, sorry)

Nope, I don’t want it all easy. I just almost never run a dungeon with a warrior at all. Very few people in my guild play warriors. If we do have a warrior, it’s just one.

My concern is that if Anet makes it harder for the most efficient party, they’re making it a lot harder for everyone else. The dungeons shouldn’t be balanced around those warriors.

But something should be done to make those types of parties less effective.3

I think that the first thing they should try to do is balance the boss encounters around some form of healing rate. So if a boss fight was balanced around a healing rate of 500HP/sec then the party needs to be able to put out that rate on average. This means they could bring one guy who actually does 500HP/sec or they could each do 100HP/sec or any mix between the two. Obviously, increasing health/armor will reduce the amount of HP/sec needed to win (simply because you live longer) and increasing the amount of DPS will also reduce the amount of HP/sec needed to win because the boss will die faster (barring periods of invulnerability).

This system would force aspects of the trinity back into the meta without actually requiring people to spec as Tank and Healer.

mtpelion.4562:

I think that the first thing they should try to do is balance the boss encounters around some form of healing rate. So if a boss fight was balanced around a healing rate of 500HP/sec then the party needs to be able to put out that rate on average. This means they could bring one guy who actually does 500HP/sec or they could each do 100HP/sec or any mix between the two. Obviously, increasing health/armor will reduce the amount of HP/sec needed to win (simply because you live longer) and increasing the amount of DPS will also reduce the amount of HP/sec needed to win because the boss will die faster (barring periods of invulnerability).

This system would force aspects of the trinity back into the meta without actually requiring people to spec as Tank and Healer.

sounds like it greatly favors full dps teams

Decreasing hp and increasing damage or the reversed is not a good thing. BUT. Adding more mechanics to the fight and let your party figure out how and when to avoid or take advantage of the mechanic is great, some mechanics should be random as well, but not too many. We already have RNG with gemstore.

milo.6942:

sounds like it greatly favors full dps teams

Not if you set the HP/sec threshold high enough to where at least ONE player has to have enough healing or ONE player has enough survivability to counter the HP loss over time.

It would obviously require balancing, but I think the concept is solid enough.

mtpelion.4562:

milo.6942:

sounds like it greatly favors full dps teams

Not if you set the HP/sec threshold high enough to where at least ONE player has to have enough healing or ONE player has enough survivability to counter the HP loss over time.

It would obviously require balancing, but I think the concept is solid enough.

you think bosses that regen their health would encourage balanced team comps?

milo.6942:

you think bosses that regen their health would encourage balanced team comps?

No, I think that teams being required to regen the team’s health at a minimum rate would encourage balanced team comps.

mtpelion.4562:

I think that the first thing they should try to do is balance the boss encounters around some form of healing rate. So if a boss fight was balanced around a healing rate of 500HP/sec then the party needs to be able to put out that rate on average. This means they could bring one guy who actually does 500HP/sec or they could each do 100HP/sec or any mix between the two. Obviously, increasing health/armor will reduce the amount of HP/sec needed to win (simply because you live longer) and increasing the amount of DPS will also reduce the amount of HP/sec needed to win because the boss will die faster (barring periods of invulnerability).

This system would force aspects of the trinity back into the meta without actually requiring people to spec as Tank and Healer.

or they can just have 5 doing 1000 HP/sec and then just dodge the attacks that come conveniently spaced out.

This boss already exist in the form of Simin. It ca be a very easy fight with enough DPS or a never ending fight if not.

I was apparently not clear, I don’t mean the boss is healing, I mean that the party must do an average amount of healing to themselves every second or die from damage from the boss encounter.

Right now you can do most (all?) bosses without taking a single hit of damage and that is what allows full DPS to be the most ideal setup.

If you have an environmental effect that causes damage (either spikes or over time) you can use that damage to balance the encounter around party Heal Per Second rate.

Bosses and champions need to have more normal attacks and no or very rare one shot skills. There is nothing more lazy imo than one shotting in a game. instead a series of attack that can kill you if you do not block or get out of the way.

I’m glad they decided to revamp the rewards first instead of waiting on the actual dungeon revaamps.

They have said they will be updating the dungeons later this year (still hopeful this is true). They usually like to update the encounters/events long before updating the rewards so I am glad they took the opposite approach this time.

Just look at what they did to Orr. Buffed the events there considerably and we are still waiting on the rewards to catch up.

i just hope they don t revamp stuff like AC

It was a nice dungeon to PUG with casual, and low level people.

Now i play every dungeon but that and SE….
(only dredge can compete with such boringness)