Guild Wars 2

Where’s the logic here?
Obviously Arena Net was aiming to achieve more action style combat system, not strategic, then why are nearly all monsters static?
They just run to you, sit there soaking up the damage until they die, especially bosses.

Why can’t monsters dodge, flee or avoid AoE?
Why is AI so bad?
Why are most regular/ veteran monsters so pathetically weak compared to us players?

Strange. I remember mobs actively getting out and avoiding AoE. This was back in Beta though.

Nick.6972:

Why can’t monsters dodge, flee or avoid AoE?

There’s nothing more annoying than fleeing monsters…

AntiGw.9367:

Nick.6972:

Why can’t monsters dodge, flee or avoid AoE?

There’s nothing more annoying than fleeing monsters…

But it actually requires some skill instead of pressing 100b. In many dungeons bosses completely ignore every dmg they get. They stand on their position till they die. If they would react to certain skill, immobilize and other skills would actually make sense.

yea fleeing not so much, that already was happening in PVE when thieves went stealth during combat, the most annoying thing I’ve ever experienced in any PVE game.

Mobs already dodge and try to get out of AOE zones but not to the degree of players. I do recall someone mentioning how the more people are in a zone doing the same event the better the AI would become but I’ve never seen this in practice. Did they shut that off?

I really wonder how combat would go if it was one or two hits and you die, vice versa with the mobs.

One on one fights would be doable, two on one would be risky, three on one would be a challenge.

Shorter, faster fights, with more emphasis on timing and skill to land a hit while avoiding being hit yourself, versus large HP pools, stats, and auto attacks.

Engaging in combat is more interesting and adrenalin filled if you are afraid of being hit. Now you have to pick and choose our fights as well as know your enemy.

None of you played Guild Wars 1 did you. The AI in GW1 was amazing. Monsters fought as coordinated groups that used their abilities cooperatively. They actively avoided AOE effects and where challenging for most players. Players would form group comps with skill sets specifically designed to counter the mobs because they where so effective at killing players.

So OP, you basicly want to spend 3x more time fighting single trash mob, while he evades your attacks, move away from your aoe etc…
Have you ever tought that if mobs could use dodge they would dodge with perfect timing, which means they could dodge your best skills with ease. And what would happend if you get attacked by 4-5 of this super-combatAI mobs? I know what would happend, you would be on forums same second, complaining that you cant farm because you get eaten if you start fight with few mobs. Not to mention all complaints about farming not profitable since every mob takes forever to kill.

I’m not talking about profit or drops in this thread and huge HP monsters is a different problem.
Better AI would add more depth to this game.
Of course, I do know not everyone wants that.

Spencer.1386:

None of you played Guild Wars 1 did you. The AI in GW1 was amazing. Monsters fought as coordinated groups that used their abilities cooperatively. They actively avoided AOE effects and where challenging for most players. Players would form group comps with skill sets specifically designed to counter the mobs because they where so effective at killing players.

Yeah. The AI wasn’t really that advanced in GW1 either, but sure as hell better than in GW2.

Spencer.1386:

None of you played Guild Wars 1 did you. The AI in GW1 was amazing. Monsters fought as coordinated groups that used their abilities cooperatively. They actively avoided AOE effects and where challenging for most players. Players would form group comps with skill sets specifically designed to counter the mobs because they where so effective at killing players.

Some of them did. Others seemed to go the comple opposite way. I was always a bit mystified (and amused) when entire mobs would crowd around my Dervish and just sit in the AoE.

Most enemies in GW1 have the same AI as the heroes. They’re not so much good as quick and consistent. Given the right build they can be extremely effective but it basically needs skills that can either be spammed as soon as they come off cooldown or have very basic rules (like use this at the start of the fight, do this when they get into melee range, heal a team mate if they’re injured etc.). The challenge came from the developers giving them good builds rather than the AI itself being good.

And then there was the dopelganger in Augry Rock who was just laughable. Give them all ranged skills and move into melee range and they switch to a melee weapon they can’t use instead of moving back. Give them useless spirits (on a ranger) and they waste all their energy spamming skills that help you as much as them. Or just give them nothing and wand them to death….

Spencer.1386:

None of you played Guild Wars 1 did you. The AI in GW1 was amazing. Monsters fought as coordinated groups that used their abilities cooperatively. They actively avoided AOE effects and where challenging for most players. Players would form group comps with skill sets specifically designed to counter the mobs because they where so effective at killing players.

It was totaly different combat system. Combat was designed around group, so most mobs (not all) were designed for group acting. It wassnt better AI it was just different, and in gw2 there are also mobs that support other of its kind, like acolytes that heal other risen etc.
Also, mobs now fight other mobs that dont belong to their type which is pretty cool design imo.

Monsters fought other monsters in GW1 too.
Interesting design, but nothing really to be amazed about.

kRiza krimos.1637:

So OP, you basicly want to spend 3x more time fighting single trash mob, while he evades your attacks, move away from your aoe etc…
Have you ever tought that if mobs could use dodge they would dodge with perfect timing, which means they could dodge your best skills with ease. And what would happend if you get attacked by 4-5 of this super-combatAI mobs? I know what would happend, you would be on forums same second, complaining that you cant farm because you get eaten if you start fight with few mobs. Not to mention all complaints about farming not profitable since every mob takes forever to kill.

So you really think that introducing better, more dynamic combat AI automatically means that they’re super good and almost impossible to defeat? What? No, what?
You should really give it a try and think past that point. The AI can be deliberately made imperfect. You could even go and make different difficulties for AI. Oh wait, that’s been done throughout gaming history. Really. Open your eyes. The OP wants more dynamic combat AI and not just these stone-like mobs we have right now. And I fully support this.

Nick.6972:

Why can’t monsters dodge, flee or avoid AoE?
Why is AI so bad?
Why are most regular/ veteran monsters so pathetically weak compared to us players?

Once upon a time, the GW1 enemies were patched to have a better AI (by the time Nightfall was released). They would kitte and avoid AoE attacks unless players used some kind of movement control to keep them in place.

And yet, despite being able to control the skills of the entire party and having access to nearly one thousand skills… Players complained that they were stuck running in circles behind enemies, and that this was the game’s fault.

OP, I agree completely with you. However, little improvements to the AI were enough to make it smarter than players, and that was among the GW1 community, who was better than this one. Here, we have more people interested in loot than in deep combat mechanics, so…

Nick.6972:

Monsters fought other monsters in GW1 too.
Interesting design, but nothing really to be amazed about.

They do this in GW2 as well. I once watched a great battle between a veteran Karka and a veteran Reef Rider. Although I find it more amusing when the yellow ambient creatures like deer and moose take down the actual enemies.

Nick.6972:

I’m not talking about profit or drops in this thread and huge HP monsters is a different problem.
Better AI would add more depth to this game.
Of course, I do know not everyone wants that.

Spencer.1386:

None of you played Guild Wars 1 did you. The AI in GW1 was amazing. Monsters fought as coordinated groups that used their abilities cooperatively. They actively avoided AOE effects and where challenging for most players. Players would form group comps with skill sets specifically designed to counter the mobs because they where so effective at killing players.

Yeah. The AI wasn’t really that advanced in GW1 either, but sure as hell better than in GW2.

So i guess you want AI to be on average player level. That would certainly add depth to combat. Sadly, AI programing is not that advanced, at least in gaming industry with current available resources.

Well, I’m certainly not a programmer, but, I assume it’s not hard to program AI like this :
If AOE → Dodge/Move out of AoE.

RoterFuchs.9216:

kRiza krimos.1637:

So OP, you basicly want to spend 3x more time fighting single trash mob, while he evades your attacks, move away from your aoe etc…
Have you ever tought that if mobs could use dodge they would dodge with perfect timing, which means they could dodge your best skills with ease. And what would happend if you get attacked by 4-5 of this super-combatAI mobs? I know what would happend, you would be on forums same second, complaining that you cant farm because you get eaten if you start fight with few mobs. Not to mention all complaints about farming not profitable since every mob takes forever to kill.

So you really think that introducing better, more dynamic combat AI automatically means that they’re super good and almost impossible to defeat? What? No, what?
You should really give it a try and think past that point. The AI can be deliberately made imperfect. You could even go and make different difficulties for AI. Oh wait, that’s been done throughout gaming history. Really. Open your eyes. The OP wants more dynamic combat AI and not just these stone-like mobs we have right now. And I fully support this.

Perhaps you and op should band together and make script for better AI. Its easy to be general after battle…

I wish the monsters would try to act more like players, maybe then anet would see why us eles keep complaining about staff/scepter aoe. (and warriors would have to try)

The fact is the classes are way more balanced in pvp, so making pve a little more like pvp would solve a bunch of problems, being able to use all your abilities usefully in pve would open up some more options for specialising in groups too.

Kriza, obviously if a mob takes 3 times as long, it will be 3 times as worth it. Less mobs that are more interesting to fight is awesome (see: Monster Hunter)

Nick.6972:

Well, I’m certainly not a programmer, but, I assume it’s not hard to program AI like this :
If AOE -> Dodge/Move out of AoE.

Yea, since creating artificial inteligence equals to “if hit then dodge”.

What is more dynamic?

I hit a monster and it hits back for a couple of minutes as we trade blows or…

I am gauging striking distance from a monster as it swings at me and I try to get one or two good hits to kill it before it gets a hit on me.

Imagine if a game of tag were played like this: If you get tagged about 20 or 30 times, then you are it…. Otherwise 1 touch is ok, and you won’t lose. I wouldn’t be so worried about being touched then.

In a game of tag, one touch and you lose. Causing a compelling and exciting interaction between players trying to not get “hit”.

emikochan.8504:

I wish the monsters would try to act more like players, maybe then anet would see why us eles keep complaining about staff/scepter aoe. (and warriors would have to try)

The fact is the classes are way more balanced in pvp, so making pve a little more like pvp would solve a bunch of problems, being able to use all your abilities usefully in pve would open up some more options for specialising in groups too.

Kriza, obviously if a mob takes 3 times as long, it will be 3 times as worth it. Less mobs that are more interesting to fight is awesome (see: Monster Hunter)

You are missing forest from all trees. Lets say risen have more advanced AI, so now you need more time to kill it due to evades, tactical movement, well placed skills etc. That means you cant have as many of them in area as there is now. So Zhaitan created a “horde” of undead which consists of 3 zombies per area…and were off to combat his army of 5 zombies in cursed shore…
And what would happend when event scaled to 30 ppl?

CMF.5461:

What is more dynamic?

I hit a monster and it hits back for a couple of minutes as we trade blows or…

I am gauging striking distance from a monster as it swings at me and I try to get one or two good hits to kill it before it gets a hit on me.

Imagine if a game of tag were played like this: If you get tagged about 20 or 30 times, then you are it…. Otherwise 1 touch is ok, and you won’t lose. I wouldn’t be so worried about being touched then.

In a game of tag, one touch and you lose. Causing a compelling and exciting interaction between players trying to not get “hit”.

So you fight one smart mob in melee and other ranged mob put 2 arrows in you from 1200 before you even noticed it joined fight, poof you are dead and what fun it was. Fighting more than 2 opponents would mean you lost since there is no chance to avoid every attack.
Besides, gw2 is game about heroes. Some heroes we would be if a minion could get 1 shot at you and defeat you. What you are asking is fight with champions, only you have to hit him more than once while 2 shots on you is enough for him. Isnt that even more compelling and exiting…

edit: wassn’t 1 hit KO thing that every1 complained about, and suddenly it would be better if every fight was 1 hit KO.

CMF.5461:

I really wonder how combat would go if it was one or two hits and you die, vice versa with the mobs.

One on one fights would be doable, two on one would be risky, three on one would be a challenge.

Shorter, faster fights, with more emphasis on timing and skill to land a hit while avoiding being hit yourself, versus large HP pools, stats, and auto attacks.

Engaging in combat is more interesting and adrenalin filled if you are afraid of being hit. Now you have to pick and choose our fights as well as know your enemy.

^This. Shorter and intense fights.

Also kiting mobs would make chill and cripple useful in PvE. I’m all for that.

Kriza, i’d say improved AI would only apply to veterans/champs with the brainless hordes being weaker minions under their command.

Maybe even having those champions giving large area buffs to mobs in their sight (I really love the dredge commissar for this near sorrows embrace)

I just like the idea of enemies having a chain of command and to interact together (like the TESO devs say they are working on)

We so rarely see mobs with even combo fields, I’d love to see an npc ele use combos like rtl > updraft or earthquake in a fire field to buff might on their allies and knock you down.

kRiza krimos.1637:

So you fight one smart mob in melee and other ranged mob put 2 arrows in you from 1200 before you even noticed it joined fight, poof you are dead and what fun it was. Fighting more than 2 opponents would mean you lost since there is no chance to avoid every attack.
Besides, gw2 is game about heroes. Some heroes we would be if a minion could get 1 shot at you and defeat you. What you are asking is fight with champions, only you have to hit him more than once while 2 shots on you is enough for him. Isnt that even more compelling and exiting…

edit: wassn’t 1 hit KO thing that every1 complained about, and suddenly it would be better if every fight was 1 hit KO.

As it stands now, the game can not work the way I described it due to things based on stats and the ability to be hit a few times over and over.

That is understood and acknowledged.

For a game to work like I suggested it would have to minimize or do away with stats and be all animation/cool down dependent.

As far as ranged attacks, that would have to be throttled down or changed into control moves as well as providing everyone some way of dodging/blocking/absorbing/reflecting “some” projectiles to give people a chance to survive a ranged attack or two.

After that, it becomes very compelling and positioning, situational awareness, and teamwork come into play.

Maybe those ranged attackers have an effective range of 1200, fight on the outskirts of that ranged attack and be aware of the distance.

Maybe a guardian or mesmer is with you with projectile blockers, now you can survive a volley or two and close the gap to fight in melee. Now the ranged attacker has to swap to melee or they are very vulnerable (npc and pc weapon swaps).

It is a very compelling and interesting way to fight…brings in the realism and threat of death in combat, versus what we have now. I can just auto attack or spam buttons and I will win. If its a vet or a champion, then I roll around every now and then but mostly just spamming buttons till the red bar of life whittles away.

You could do it in the tune of how some first person shooters are today. No HP, but a successive strike system, where if you are hit too many times in a row then you die. Get out of the damage for a bit and you recover slightly to be ready to get back into the fray.

Lots of ways to do this and I think they are more compelling than auto attack… but it will never happen because it would be a complete revamp and negation of all the things that have progressed so far with the game.

emikochan.8504:

Kriza, i’d say improved AI would only apply to veterans/champs with the brainless hordes being weaker minions under their command.

Maybe even having those champions giving large area buffs to mobs in their sight (I really love the dredge commissar for this near sorrows embrace)

I just like the idea of enemies having a chain of command and to interact together (like the TESO devs say they are working on)

We so rarely see mobs with even combo fields, I’d love to see an npc ele use combos like rtl > updraft or earthquake in a fire field to buff might on their allies and knock you down.

You are talking about dredge in general. They are well organized and have support, and it goes well with lore of the race. If you pay attention, you will notice there are alot of races that behave according to their nature.

kRiza krimos.1637:

emikochan.8504:

Kriza, i’d say improved AI would only apply to veterans/champs with the brainless hordes being weaker minions under their command.

Maybe even having those champions giving large area buffs to mobs in their sight (I really love the dredge commissar for this near sorrows embrace)

I just like the idea of enemies having a chain of command and to interact together (like the TESO devs say they are working on)

We so rarely see mobs with even combo fields, I’d love to see an npc ele use combos like rtl > updraft or earthquake in a fire field to buff might on their allies and knock you down.

You are talking about dredge in general. They are well organized and have support, and it goes well with lore of the race. If you pay attention, you will notice there are alot of races that behave according to their nature.

Yes I know the bandits and dredge are pretty cool like that, I suppose I’d just like to see a few more combos, there’s this awesome combat system but only the players really get to take advantage of the interactions.

Some players aren’t smart enough to move out of the AoE so what makes you think mobs should be any smarter?

I understand what OP is trying to say here.

Currently mobs in ow and dungeons are just running to you and doing 1 or 2 attacks, so to compensate for this Anet just increase their life to give the average user enough of a challenge. This works GREAT for other static combat mmos, but for GW2 where dodging and conditions is such an integral part of combat that the static enemy usually becomes annoying because in most cases mobs are just tanks and nothing more.

Dodging is not necessarily the only way to boost AI, lowering their health and giving them more abilities(something similar to players but with more limitation, example ‘cant be afflicted with same spells for 7 seconds after affliction ends’

My 2 cents

The type of rewards players get from killing the mobs motivates them to kill mobs as fast as possible. So mob behaviour is probably the way it is, because it make fights quick.

It would be cool if you get special buffs for mini accomplishments within a fight. Then there would be incentive to make mob fights deeper.

Smarter AI would make this more interesting, however…

Most mobs do move out of my aoe.
Several mob types dodge roll to avoid attacks – bandits, pirates, etc
Some mobs do use blocks and/or interrupts – centaurs, krait, etc

So, some basics do exist.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Strange. I remember mobs actively getting out and avoiding AoE. This was back in Beta though.

If that really happened then it´s surely a problem with server computing power, now that they have to supply AI for 10000 more instances than in the beta.
Remember not only is every map a server but every dungeon/fractal instance too.

And just yesterday I had quite the noticeable skill lag from time to time in a plain vanilla Brisban map. So I guess the possible “AI´ness” that we have now is as good as it´s gona get, until somebody figures out how to code some serious parallel number crunching GW2-servers.

Spencer.1386:

None of you played Guild Wars 1 did you. The AI in GW1 was amazing. Monsters fought as coordinated groups that used their abilities cooperatively. They actively avoided AOE effects and where challenging for most players. Players would form group comps with skill sets specifically designed to counter the mobs because they where so effective at killing players.

You’re wearing Nostalgia Goggles™.

Necromancers and anyone with SY could steamroll anything.

Suggested this a while back.

Mobs and especially bosses NEED better AI. Dodging, actively moving out of AoE, using builds and skills to compliment each other (combos etc) and a full set of 10 skills for harder monsters.

Its mad how some bosses seem to have a whole 3 skills in their arsenal.

ordered chaos.6019:

Some players aren’t smart enough to move out of the AoE so what makes you think mobs should be any smarter?

If they see mobs doing it they would learn from them maybe?

Nick.6972:

Why can’t monsters dodge, flee or avoid AoE?

Actually, monsters do all these three things.

Anyone else remember the group AI in GW1 EOTN where the melee NPC’s would actively body block their healers and ranged fighters so you could never just charge straight to their important classes?

I think there is a place for some more intelligent AI in places in Dungeons. Lets take the Golem room in CoE.

You have a mix of Ranged and Melee Golems.

What do people do, they agro the whole lot. The players move round the corner and all the mobs run around the corner and bunch up, as once the ranged mobs are able to target the players they are happy, even though they are now sitting in melee . Even changing these so the ranged mobs try to actively avoid melee, would make a huge difference. The ranged mobs would come round the corner, get a target lock on the players and then start backing up along the corridor while shooting players. Suddenly if players want to keep them all bunched up, they have to use slows, round them up with rears, Immobilise them with glue bombs, pull them into the corner with Focus 4 etc. Suddenly a fight which is a case of LoS round corner, becomes a bit more tactical.

Another example is places where mobs can’t get a target on the enemy, they become invulnerable. This is really annoying, it would be far more interesting if when a mob can’t get target but are taking damage they just move away from the person causing them damage.

In otherwords, there are lots of places where a bit better AI brings more skills into play.

I feel lay to and cheated by Arenanet do to the AI they promised and didn’t give us.

pretty sure they made AI stupid on purpose, you see better AI from some specific monsters, and more generally active combat from the npcs in heart of the mists.
I even remember in BWE they nerfed the monsters because people were complaining.

The truth is many people dont want their enemies to have better routines. I would, but i dont think many would. After all people usually avoid the least exploitable fights/content