Guild Wars 2

Anyone know if anet has made comments about their plans to fix the overwhelming use of stacking in PVE these days? It pretty much summarizes the deep strategic thought that goes into place for each dungeon. Stack in a corner and dps hard, big aoes, big cleave. Im extremely surprised anet has been so slow to fix this, there are many ways you could fix this easy. One is simple have the NPCs be like mobs and when they are really close together, have them buff each other so they gain more defense/health and more dps. For instances where people use stacking on bosses, which again happens all to often, they can simple make it so when the boss detects its stacked in a certain radius of the enemies, it does massive damage, or other effects such as putting a debuff on players. Perhaps the boss does a knockback.

I think that addressing this in all dungeons that currently exist and those to come in the future will drastically change pve in the game for the better. Right now stacking isnt really an exploit in the sense that its illegal in game but its more exploiting the holes in design in the game itself. I do fractals by myself mostly, and there are a lot of fun fights out there, and I think some of the dungeons are rather interesting. But the meta for the mindset in PVE right now is “okay, lets figure out a way to stack this boss in a corner, bug him, or skip it all together.”

It’s not the player’s fault that the AI on this game is extremely lackluster

Hows it an exploit? Its an actual tactic called a Phalanx if you want to get technical lol.

Its kind of an exploit. And its sad that it summarizes the strategy for almost all pve in this game, fractals and dungeons. Its embarrassing for the game if you want to be honest. It eliminates all skill and tactics that are meant to be used and should be used. Sure, it will make the so called “hardcore” pve guilds mad, cuz they cant use fgs to stack a boss in a corner, timewarp, and instakill. But newsflash, thats not really hardcore pve. Thats exploiting the poor design of ai and gameplay of gw2.

Not your instance, not your problem. It’s one of the redeeming qualities of an instance. Plenty of like-minded people out there to get in a group with.

Body blocking would solve everything.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Body blocking would solve everything.

I can see it now.

1 person joins a group, gets into a spot where the other 4 stand in front of him so he’s stuck. They demand 4g to let him out.

The new “Selling dungeon spot” meta!

Do you really want to pve in a game though where 75% or more of the people are using an obvious exploitation of game mechanics. Its not their fault completely I agree, the ai in this game are just designed to be zergballed, but it still needs to be fixed. I honestly wonder what new people think of when they come to this game and join a dungeon.

The main reason I think people use it is because it makes the dungeon faster so they can get more gold so they can get more gear for whatever so they can go back to the dungeon??? I think thats another big problem as well. The mechanics of mob and boss fights in this game are SOOO incredibly dry, that thinking of even doing a certain dungeon for fun is laughable because its nothing but a zerg fest. Its only recently that ive seen anet actually attempt to implement mechanics. Teq, the wurm, marionette, hologram(liadri as well for sure but that was a while ago). There are certainly a few fights that do take mechanics but too few.

Kumu Honua.2751:

I can see it now.

1 person joins a group, gets into a spot where the other 4 stand in front of him so he’s stuck. They demand 4g to let him out.

The new “Selling dungeon spot” meta!

Dodge through him. Problem solved.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Its kind of an exploit. And its sad that it summarizes the strategy for almost all pve in this game, fractals and dungeons. Its embarrassing for the game if you want to be honest. It eliminates all skill and tactics that are meant to be used and should be used. Sure, it will make the so called “hardcore” pve guilds mad, cuz they cant use fgs to stack a boss in a corner, timewarp, and instakill. But newsflash, thats not really hardcore pve. Thats exploiting the poor design of ai and gameplay of gw2.

What in the world are you talking about?

A. It’s not an exploit, it’s a product of the poorly designed AI and the inability/unwillingness of anet to come up with any content other than one/two shot enemies. Which drives players to load up on DPS and kill before being hit one time and dying.

B. Just because you are stacked up doesn’t mean you don’t have to move or use skills properly or in a timely manner. For anyone who PUG’s dungeons you will know what a challenge it is just to play with the “play how you want” crowd. It takes a certain level of skill just to not die in those groups.

C. Newsflash: There is no hardcore pve. Playing with bad builds and using “tactics” that slow things down is not hardcore pve. This is a casual game geared toward casual players so expecting pve to be difficult is asking a lot. Creating pseudo-difficulty levels by going away from the meta is just that, a false level of difficulty.

D. You build your toons to play the content that is provided. Until anet decides to design content around something other than DPS only (assuming they can and/or want to), the game will always be what it is. Changing they way the current content is played is only making it artificially difficult, it doesn’t make you a better player.

Oh this thread again…

Stacking isn’t an exploit. The reason why stacking exists in this game is because the radius of boons are very short, meaning if your entire group is spread out everywhere that warrior shout may not reach you. Hence why people stack. It allows combo fields to be placed on top of each other and can let allies quickly gain boons. It isn’t a matter of DPS or bad A.I its just how the abilities in the game work. Why spread out across a boss room and miss each others combo fields/boons when you can stack on top of each other and gain all of those benefits. This is of course assuming there isn’t a certain mechanic that prevents you from doing stuff like stacking (lupi for example).

Yes, it can be used to make things easier, but that isn’t exploiting that’s playing the game.

Except for pushing a boss against a wall, which makes it bug (for quite a lot of enemies) , stacking (meaning everyone stands in the same spot) isn’t an exploit.

They could add special attacks to monsters to push players, or big AoEs which will require everyone to move.
But if you have a guardian or a mesmer in your team, stacking in a corner for trash/elite mobs, the necessity of stacking in a corner to pull foes simply means that your guardian/mesmer cannot (because they don’t have the required weapon, or because they are incapable of doing so) pull monsters correctly, which is actually faster than waiting for monsters to come. But the difference between knowing how to use your skill to pull (which is quite simple) and finding a corner to stack, is only a few measly seconds (unless your team isn’t too good).

For bosses, it’s a bit different. Not only because they have Unshakeable but also because you don’t have to stack to put a boss in a corner (and aside from bugging a boss, FGS is the only reason you want a boss in a corner/against a wall).

As a guild, we don’t necessarily stack. We just melee and our ranged user (a mesmer) is smart enough to come close to us for TW and boons. We also tend to make fun of people stacking EVERYWHERE FOR EVERY ENCOUNTER (then we cry a bit each and every time we have to get a PuG who has been raised by this method).

“An exploit is taking advantage of something that is not working as intended.” I highly doubt that Anet, when they made the dungeons that currently exist, intended for players to be playing through dungeons the way they do now. Don’t try to mask up whats really going on in the PVE meta of the game right now and what has been going on for months lol. I don’t agree with your argumetn zelk, you can still easy build might and fury without stacking in a corner. People stack in a corner because they do more dps on a boss, and including fgs/timewarp/reflect, can pretty much instantly kill a boss. Its essentially what many boss fights have been reduced to.

OP seems to have subscribed to the arenanet “let’s call things exploits that aren’t actually exploits” newsletter.

I’m going to need a bit of help understanding the problem. I stopped pugging for more than 4 months and with my guild we always do dungeons the same old way (we do them quickly enough).
So what is it, in details, that people are doing that might not have been intended by Anet in dungeons. I’d like real and detailed examples in different dungeons.

Pulling bosses/mobs into corners and just dpsing them down. The same tactic for the great majority of enemies. Do we really want that to be the PVE meta for strategy? Pretty much anytime the community can’t do this and the fight is actually difficult, they get upset. I can almost guarantee this is not what Anet had invisioned for PVE, yet they are partially responsible and do need to fix it.

It is not an exploit.

1. It’s a risk reward strategy. The players are grouped together, allowing cleave damage and group buffs, but this means enemies can do the same to them.
2. Most attacks can hit a number of enemies for a purpose.

Now stacking then using FGS #4, THAT is an exploit.

It’s funny how people like the OP crusade to stop people playing a certain way, because it’s not the way OP wants to play.

Post on LFG “path X, all welcome, no skipping, no stacking, no exploits”. Your problem is solved.

SkylightMoon.1980:

“An exploit is taking advantage of something that is not working as intended.” I highly doubt that Anet, when they made the dungeons that currently exist, intended for players to be playing through dungeons the way they do now.

Anet designed the mob AI.
Anet designed the short range of boons.

We are not talking about some sort of complex interaction of skills and abilities that could not have been forseen by the developers. Team buffs require that characters be close together. That is intended.

We know that the developers designed the game this way.

We know that the developers have chosen to not change this aspect of the game despite many calls for revision.

Do you have any evidence to support your position ?

Flissy.4093:

It is not an exploit.

1. It’s a risk reward strategy. The players are grouped together, allowing cleave damage and group buffs, but this means enemies can do the same to them.
2. Most attacks can hit a number of enemies for a purpose.

Now stacking then using FGS #4, THAT is an exploit.

It’s funny how people like the OP crusade to stop people playing a certain way, because it’s not the way OP wants to play.

Thats not true I don’t really care how people play, if Anet wants people to obviously use broken game mechanics which they are too lazy too fix, well then they are just being incredibly lazy. But it is something that needs to be fixed. I mean in no other mmo that I have ever played have I seen such broken PVE. Thats results from irresponsible players and bad game design. Implementing some code in game that allows NPCs to buff each other the closer they are would easily counter this.

Ashen.2907:

SkylightMoon.1980:

“An exploit is taking advantage of something that is not working as intended.” I highly doubt that Anet, when they made the dungeons that currently exist, intended for players to be playing through dungeons the way they do now.

Anet designed the mob AI.
Anet designed the short range of boons.

We are not talking about some sort of complex interaction of skills and abilities that could not have been forseen by the developers. Team buffs require that characters be close together. That is intended.

We know that the developers designed the game this way.

We know that the developers have chosen to not change this aspect of the game despite many calls for revision.

Do you have any evidence to support your position ?

Nothing you said really supports the fact that Anet is ok or intended gameplay to end up this way.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Flissy.4093:

It is not an exploit.

1. It’s a risk reward strategy. The players are grouped together, allowing cleave damage and group buffs, but this means enemies can do the same to them.
2. Most attacks can hit a number of enemies for a purpose.

Now stacking then using FGS #4, THAT is an exploit.

It’s funny how people like the OP crusade to stop people playing a certain way, because it’s not the way OP wants to play.

Thats not true I don’t really care how people play, if Anet wants people to obviously use broken game mechanics which they are too lazy too fix, well then they are just being incredibly lazy. But it is something that needs to be fixed. I mean in no other mmo that I have ever played have I seen such broken PVE. Thats results from irresponsible players and bad game design. Implementing some code in game that allows NPCs to buff each other the closer they are would easily counter this.

LOSing has been in MMOs for years on end.

As for enemies buffing close enemies, much like players? Yeah that happens. Say high to the OP Dredge on Fractal 50 if you ever get past level 6.

Please prove to us this is NOT how AN intended dungeons to be done.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Pulling bosses/mobs into corners and just dpsing them down.

Is it the corner bit that’s annoying it ? Would it be better if people would just pull the monsters out in the open (which is easily done) ?

Or it is the dpsing it down before it has the chance to hurt you ? Which, in a game lacking a healer, isn’t a dumb tactic.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Ashen.2907:

SkylightMoon.1980:

“An exploit is taking advantage of something that is not working as intended.” I highly doubt that Anet, when they made the dungeons that currently exist, intended for players to be playing through dungeons the way they do now.

Anet designed the mob AI.
Anet designed the short range of boons.

We are not talking about some sort of complex interaction of skills and abilities that could not have been forseen by the developers. Team buffs require that characters be close together. That is intended.

We know that the developers designed the game this way.

We know that the developers have chosen to not change this aspect of the game despite many calls for revision.

Do you have any evidence to support your position ?

Nothing you said really supports the fact that Anet is ok or intended gameplay to end up this way.

Anet purposefully introduced mechanics that require stacking for characters to receive maximum benefit from their skills.

Telling players, “you must do X in order to get benefit Y,” demonstrates an intent for players to do X.

Now Anet might not have realized that X would turn out to be a bad thing, but that is something else entirely.

RedStar.4218:

SkylightMoon.1980:

Pulling bosses/mobs into corners and just dpsing them down.

Is it the corner bit that’s annoying it ? Would it be better if people would just pull the monsters out in the open (which is easily done) ?

Or it is the dpsing it down before it has the chance to hurt you ? Which, in a game lacking a healer, isn’t a dumb tactic.

The lack of trinity in gw2 has been partially replaced with the combo field system which I think despserately needs to be expanded upon. Its already a pretty successful and game changing idea, especially in wvw. In pve, and in a 5 man party, I think waterfields can easily save your life in the right situation. You can have 1 supportish type of person in the party, maybe a hybrid dps and banner heal warrior for strong passive heals, and then your burst heals can come from an ele or ranger. Depending on your class make up you could blast from 4-9 times with 5 people, which is 6k-13.5k heals.

Ashen.2907:

SkylightMoon.1980:

Ashen.2907:

SkylightMoon.1980:

“An exploit is taking advantage of something that is not working as intended.” I highly doubt that Anet, when they made the dungeons that currently exist, intended for players to be playing through dungeons the way they do now.

Anet designed the mob AI.
Anet designed the short range of boons.

We are not talking about some sort of complex interaction of skills and abilities that could not have been forseen by the developers. Team buffs require that characters be close together. That is intended.

We know that the developers designed the game this way.

We know that the developers have chosen to not change this aspect of the game despite many calls for revision.

Do you have any evidence to support your position ?

Nothing you said really supports the fact that Anet is ok or intended gameplay to end up this way.

Anet purposefully introduced mechanics that require stacking for characters to receive maximum benefit from their skills.

Telling players, “you must do X in order to get benefit Y,” demonstrates an intent for players to do X.

Now Anet might not have realized that X would turn out to be a bad thing, but that is something else entirely.

People don’t stack in a corner to gain buffs though, you dont even need to be that tight, I dont understand why people keep using this argument. People stack in a corner so they can pull the boss there and then the boss will pretty much sit in that corner the entire time like a kitten, missing half his attacks because his arm is in the wall, while the players use this time to burst all damage on him because they can’t miss.

SkylightMoon.1980:

People don’t stack in a corner to gain buffs though, you dont even need to be that tight, I dont understand why people keep using this argument. People stack in a corner so they can pull the boss there and then the boss will pretty much sit in that corner the entire time like a kitten, missing half his attacks because his arm is in the wall, while the players use this time to burst all damage on him because they can’t miss.

He doesn’t miss because he’s in a wall. Attacks still connect. it’s just a visual bug. And people DO stack for buffs.

The buff range is a reason players like longbow traited rangers are such a plague, they sit 1500 range away from the group, out of range of any buffs and unable to provide any buffs to anybody but themselves.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Ashen.2907:

SkylightMoon.1980:

Ashen.2907:

SkylightMoon.1980:

“An exploit is taking advantage of something that is not working as intended.” I highly doubt that Anet, when they made the dungeons that currently exist, intended for players to be playing through dungeons the way they do now.

Anet designed the mob AI.
Anet designed the short range of boons.

We are not talking about some sort of complex interaction of skills and abilities that could not have been forseen by the developers. Team buffs require that characters be close together. That is intended.

We know that the developers designed the game this way.

We know that the developers have chosen to not change this aspect of the game despite many calls for revision.

Do you have any evidence to support your position ?

Nothing you said really supports the fact that Anet is ok or intended gameplay to end up this way.

Anet purposefully introduced mechanics that require stacking for characters to receive maximum benefit from their skills.

Telling players, “you must do X in order to get benefit Y,” demonstrates an intent for players to do X.

Now Anet might not have realized that X would turn out to be a bad thing, but that is something else entirely.

People don’t stack in a corner to gain buffs though, you dont even need to be that tight, I dont understand why people keep using this argument. People stack in a corner so they can pull the boss there and then the boss will pretty much sit in that corner the entire time like a kitten, missing half his attacks because his arm is in the wall, while the players use this time to burst all damage on him because they can’t miss.

I just reread your OP. If your concern is about bosses not being able to attack due to environmental clipping or something of the sort you might want to alter the thread title and the OP to include that concern. I responded to what you wrote and stand by my posts.

For what it is worth I dislike the current stacking mechanic and would love to see it changed.

But that does not mean that the current system was not intended.

In the time it would take you to set all of that in place, and the sacrifice of damage, monsters are incredibly more likely to hurt you even more if, instead of trying to heal in a game where healers do not exist, you focus on damage.

I’m not saying that using water combo field + blast finishers are useless. They are a nice bonus, but your build shouldn’t focus on that. Because by focusing on it, you are bringing less damage thus monsters stay alive longer and thus your party is at risk for a longer time.

This thread reeks of casualness.

Call it whatever you want, luring/pushing a boss into a corner and everyone standing ontop of him facerolling their keyboards is probably not what ANet intended. And it is cheap. But until ANet change it, I can’t fault anyone for doing it. It’s the quickest, simplest path to rewards.

That it trivialises interesting encounters and makes the game extremely boring (because, what does it matter what you’re facing if the fight is exactly the same, only the corner/spot for luring/pushing changes?) in PvE is going to hurt longterm. How long can you beat a parade of mobs in exactly the same way before you tire of it and leave the game for good. It’ll drive everyone, even its proponents, away.

Despite the casual nature of forum posts, terminology is important.

Stacking is a legitimate tactic, whose mechanics are embedded in game design.

Exploits are unintended by definition. Someone identifying an exploit is requested to email to exploits@arena.net

While players can stack and exploit at the same time, they are not the same thing. Rather than calling for a fix to stacking (which is intended), the OP should be reporting the exploit (if, in fact, he has identified one).

Here’s the insight of a hardcore dungeon runner: Stacking/LOS is simply the most efficient method of killing enemies that are too stupid to not “stand in the fire,” so to speak.

TheKillerAngel.3596:

Here’s the insight of a hardcore dungeon runner: Stacking/LOS is simply the most efficient method of killing enemies that are too stupid to not “stand in the fire,” so to speak.

This is the sad truth of it.

Would you agree that most dungeons have devolved into knowing skips and stack spots, interspersed with occasional reflects?

And do you think that is all this game’s dungeon content could be, given the dodges, evades, invulnerabilites, interrupts, mobility, control, ranged, teleport and combo mechanics that the game possesses? I know some of these^ are used in stacking, but in generally low amounts.

dace.8019:

TheKillerAngel.3596:

Here’s the insight of a hardcore dungeon runner: Stacking/LOS is simply the most efficient method of killing enemies that are too stupid to not “stand in the fire,” so to speak.

This is the sad truth of it.

Would you agree that most dungeons have devolved into knowing skips and stack spots, interspersed with occasional reflects?

And do you think that is all this game’s dungeon content could be, given the dodges, evades, invulnerabilites, interrupts, mobility, control, ranged, teleport and combo mechanics that the game possesses? I know some of these^ are used in stacking, but in generally low amounts.

Quite a few of those things you mentioned are actually used in a lot of high end speedruns.

People act like this issue is specific to GW2. It isn’t. I have gone back to WoW after a long hiatus and let me tell you how people defeat the final boss of the hardest raid: stacking.

I was part of such runs where we pulled a boss to a comfortable spot, stacked up and ignored all mechanics. The exploding iron stars, the wolfriders, the desecrated weapons, the shapeshifted team members. All became a non-issue through stacking and spamming our respective abilities. That fight was supposed to be the pinnacle of the last expansion.

The general problem in this game is the amount of trash and the health of the bosses. People skip whatever they can and stack in berserker gear for whatever they can’t because enemies have a huge health pool, spam crowd control abilities and more often than not come in groups. What could be a challenging and innovative dungeon run becomes a tedious exercise.

Stacking makes it so that the unskippable and boring foes can be finished off quicker due to the large amount of boons and debuffs that gets applied consistently. Not ideal but without it we would have an hour long explorable paths with a minimum of five wipes.

This unintended behaviour will happen as long as people are more motivated by the shinies than the thrill of the encounter mechanic which is – admittedly – lacking at the moment.

There is already a ‘fix’ to your self-proclaimed problem/exploit that is causing so much grief in your imaginary little world you’ve created for yourself to feel ‘victimized/cheated’.

That ‘fix’ is: DON’T DO AND DON’T BE GROUPED UP WITH A PARTY THAT USES THIS TACTIC!!

OK I’m glad we could get that ‘problem’ that plagues you resolved.

What’s next? Disable using well time reflects? Disable using LoS mechanics? Disable using thief’s stealth or aoe blinds? Disable stacking might? Disable aoe/cleaves?

Get over it. If you don’t want to use stacking then form a group yourself and don’t stack.

‘Problem’ fixed!

To the OP, your first post/title of the thread is regarding how stacking is an exploit. My response was based on that. It is not an exploit to stack. There isn’t a “fix” because it isn’t a bug or something that can be addressed easily. It is the intended game mechanics due to how the combo field/boon system works in this game. Laying multiple combo fields makes you more efficient. Does that make it the most interesting mechanic? No, not necessarily. Is it efficient and strategic? Yes, because you have to have some sense of gameplay/strategy to realize: “Hey if I pull the mobs in a group we can make more use of our combo fields”.

In some games you pull certain groups of mobs so that you don’t have to deal with them all at once (the best example I can think of is DA:O). Is that an exploit if you manage to lure only a few mobs away instead of the whole group as you’re “supposed” to fight them, or is it strategy?

Bosses clipping through walls is an entirely different argument. THAT is a bug; not stacking.

It’s not exploit, but an effective way to use your weapons. If my weapons can hit 3-5 mobs, why would i want to kill one-by-one?

Ranging is an exploit. You avoid all melee damage. :P

This silly thread needs to close. There’s a difference between tactics and exploits. Stacking is not an exploit, and players know this.

When are they gonna fix exploiting champions in frostgorge and queensdale? Champions weren’t intended to be exploited in such a way.

Also, when are they going to fix exploiting dynamic events where people just exploit their 1 skill? ANet intended people to use their other skills as well.

dace.8019:

TheKillerAngel.3596:

Here’s the insight of a hardcore dungeon runner: Stacking/LOS is simply the most efficient method of killing enemies that are too stupid to not “stand in the fire,” so to speak.

This is the sad truth of it.

Would you agree that most dungeons have devolved into knowing skips and stack spots, interspersed with occasional reflects?

And do you think that is all this game’s dungeon content could be, given the dodges, evades, invulnerabilites, interrupts, mobility, control, ranged, teleport and combo mechanics that the game possesses? I know some of these^ are used in stacking, but in generally low amounts.

You said “most dungeons have devolved into knowing skips and stack spots, interspersed with occasional reflects”. This is pretty much the core of the problem in dungeon/fractling right now. The fact that most of the people commenting on the post don’t even seem mildly bothered by this just shows that they are numbed to the PVE meta that has been occuring for months and months. Or they just don’t want harder PVE content and are content with getting great rewards through what I will always consider exploiting poor game design.

Well, at the very least, you didn’t consider body blocking. The problem is not simply stacking, its the entire conception of combat in GW2. That is the problem.

JBDanger.2603:

Hows it an exploit? Its an actual tactic called a Phalanx if you want to get technical lol.

Never heard of people in phalanx formation overlapping each others bodies.

Conncept.7638:

JBDanger.2603:

Hows it an exploit? Its an actual tactic called a Phalanx if you want to get technical lol.

Never heard of people in phalanx formation overlapping each others bodies.

:)

For Sparta!

This is basically why I never PUG dungeons. Unfortunately, there’s nothing you can really do about it, the same audience that stacks for x encounter will just find some other means to exploit the A.I., irregardless of changes on A.net’s end.

You fighting an overwhelmingly large groupie enemies with only a handful of men. The logical stance is to stand back to back so you can cover each others openings its a tactic as old as time. I once saw 300 men use it against the armies of Persia.

I find stacking extremely boring. I remember taking a break from the game (or at least dungeons), coming back and suddenly finding the dungeon tactics had changed to this boring stand still and mash buttons style. I find it boring for the same reason I play D/D ele still.. I love to move and dodge.
Fortunately there are still players who want to do it old style and play for fun, rather than speed.
I guess we are all different so if the game allows both play styles, maybe that is best.