Guild Wars 2

ArchonWing.9480:

OriOri.8724:

Host Tar.8436:

I’ve been so badly hurt financially when I’ve sold off stuff in previous years only to then need 1000s of it to craft something, that I hoard everything!! Pretty much every single crafting mat from the dregs to the very most expensive, I keep. I have a storage expansion to 500, when I hit that, I transfer to mules, & keep on filling up. I have ten of thousands of some mats. I don’t care, never again will I be pray to TP manipulators, recipe changes & new items spiking stuff. It’s a false economy when so much can be manipulated by wealthy players. I remember the very early days when it all started, when leg weps & precursors were simply bought out by a few players & then drip-fed back into the market when required. It happens all the time with everything that has any value, low to high. So now, I simply save absolutely everything.

You definitely take this to the extreme, but you point out a valid concern that a lot of players have regarding “hoarding” their items.

Anet has a history, especially in the last few years, of introducing new recipes/changing old recipes to require absolutely massive amounts of some mats. So why on earth would we have an incentive to sell something it, at any time, Anet could change a recipe to now require hundreds, or even thousands, of whatever items we just dumped our entire stock of? For a lot of players this risk isn’t worth the temporary reward of a few more silver, or a few more gold, because it has the potential to cost them way more than what they make in the long run.

Because one might want stuff now? Because it might suddenly collapse? (See resonating slivers?). Applies especially true for players that haven’t gotten equipment or account upgrades.

I’m not sure how well people are at farming liquid gold, but I like to keep a healthy amount of gems converted from gold to get whatever I need.

And if you have nothing to buy, then what use is wealth to begin with?

You people worry way too much. This isn’t real life where not having funds means you get kicked out or starve to death. So what if you missed out on hundreds or even thousands of potential gold? This is nothing over years of game time. Perhaps some of you should play some strategy games like Starcraft or Civlization. There you will realize that sometimes due to snowball effects that small advantages right now are more important than big advantages later.

Why is this? Well, that’s easy. Let’s say someone gives you $500 now. Or they could give you $30 once a year for the next 50 years. Assuming you could do something useful with the $500, it’s pretty obvious you should take the $500 even ignoring inflation. Because you could use the $500 to do something that will further your cause.

This is even more true for this game, because at this rate, one could continually “hoard” until they stop playing, and never actualize any of its benefit. What’s the point?

Just play the game. The more you cling onto how little you have, the less you will have.

see, you like to gamble, sure you MIGHT make money/gain value, but its pretty unlikely unless you are going to monitor the market.

they have lost too many times, and they arent playing anymore. they are checking out of the market.

there is no item you dont need, and usually in large numbers. you can sell now, but you ll have to buy later. the tp players dedicate lots of thought and time into making sure you have to pay them for your mistakes.

leather used to be a few copper, and they had/sold thousands now its expensive and they need thousands.

bad part is the game pace of progress is pretty poor when you have to save everything. I guess mostly extremely patient players are left.

phys.7689:

ArchonWing.9480:

OriOri.8724:

Host Tar.8436:

I’ve been so badly hurt financially when I’ve sold off stuff in previous years only to then need 1000s of it to craft something, that I hoard everything!! Pretty much every single crafting mat from the dregs to the very most expensive, I keep. I have a storage expansion to 500, when I hit that, I transfer to mules, & keep on filling up. I have ten of thousands of some mats. I don’t care, never again will I be pray to TP manipulators, recipe changes & new items spiking stuff. It’s a false economy when so much can be manipulated by wealthy players. I remember the very early days when it all started, when leg weps & precursors were simply bought out by a few players & then drip-fed back into the market when required. It happens all the time with everything that has any value, low to high. So now, I simply save absolutely everything.

You definitely take this to the extreme, but you point out a valid concern that a lot of players have regarding “hoarding” their items.

Anet has a history, especially in the last few years, of introducing new recipes/changing old recipes to require absolutely massive amounts of some mats. So why on earth would we have an incentive to sell something it, at any time, Anet could change a recipe to now require hundreds, or even thousands, of whatever items we just dumped our entire stock of? For a lot of players this risk isn’t worth the temporary reward of a few more silver, or a few more gold, because it has the potential to cost them way more than what they make in the long run.

Because one might want stuff now? Because it might suddenly collapse? (See resonating slivers?). Applies especially true for players that haven’t gotten equipment or account upgrades.

I’m not sure how well people are at farming liquid gold, but I like to keep a healthy amount of gems converted from gold to get whatever I need.

And if you have nothing to buy, then what use is wealth to begin with?

You people worry way too much. This isn’t real life where not having funds means you get kicked out or starve to death. So what if you missed out on hundreds or even thousands of potential gold? This is nothing over years of game time. Perhaps some of you should play some strategy games like Starcraft or Civlization. There you will realize that sometimes due to snowball effects that small advantages right now are more important than big advantages later.

Why is this? Well, that’s easy. Let’s say someone gives you $500 now. Or they could give you $30 once a year for the next 50 years. Assuming you could do something useful with the $500, it’s pretty obvious you should take the $500 even ignoring inflation. Because you could use the $500 to do something that will further your cause.

This is even more true for this game, because at this rate, one could continually “hoard” until they stop playing, and never actualize any of its benefit. What’s the point?

Just play the game. The more you cling onto how little you have, the less you will have.

see, you like to gamble, sure you MIGHT make money/gain value, but its pretty unlikely unless you are going to monitor the market.

they have lost too many times, and they arent playing anymore. they are checking out of the market.

there is no item you dont need, and usually in large numbers. you can sell now, but you ll have to buy later. the tp players dedicate lots of thought and time into making sure you have to pay them for your mistakes.

leather used to be a few copper, and they had/sold thousands now its expensive and they need thousands.

bad part is the game pace of progress is pretty poor when you have to save everything. I guess mostly extremely patient players are left.

Actually it is very likely as long as you have some degree of awareness.

Everything you hold or don’t hold on to is subject to luck. Things can spike, things can drop.

You think Tp barons make money by hiding valuable mats when the biggest profits come much more subtle sources. But everyone I know that plays the tp, aren’t going thus route at all. Their gold is always moving. Do they hoard stuff for the long term, sure. If it were so obvious, everyone would be rich. Except it doesn’t work like that.

And who cares about “value” when you get what you want? I emptied out by bank for a permanent bank express, and I sure know I wouldn’t want to spend two years musing about value when I could be using it now. Yea I have to farm back materials but it was hardly an issue.

It seems to me that people don’t have particular goals in mind and don’t plan ahead.

In 2 years I might not even be playing this.

as i said, they arent trying to gamble on the tp anymore, they dont want to try to be aware of trends. tp barons make money on everything they can make money on, the point being you arent going to just lose 15% most times, you will lose 15% plus whatever cut the market wants to get on that particular item.

the bank express is nice, and may be worthwhile, but that is a case of trading for something else. you are giving up mats for something you cant get with mats. thats rare. most time you will be selling mats, to buy mats, and the next thing you need will use the mats you sold.

now consider this, if you buy gem items with real money, there is only a few items at all that you dont have that will not use items.
for those few items, day to day gold or rmt in extreme cases is a better strategy.

a if you rarely buy mats, gold is basically only for black lion ticket type items, and direct gold sink items.

unless you are a trader, there isnt much benefit in selling basic mats without direct farms

there just isnt much to gain by splurging. if i sell leather to finish dawn faster, right as i finish dawn, i ll need leather to swap gear stats, or for a gift ofvleather. sell mythrilium? nope might need it if they make my specialization a dagger. you are generally not choosing to give up one thing for another, you are just buying on credit.

overall its very effecient if you arent monitoring the market.

Well, again, that’s what I mean by having no concrete goals. If I need to stockpile X material, then I will leave whatever amount is needed minus the amount I expect to gain from just salvaging materials. That’s just simple planning.

And sure, the bank express doesn’t take mats, but a lot of things don’t requiire every mat in the book anyways, if you’re going to focus on various things. Unless you want everything. Not that I would bother with RMT, but that could be used for anything too that can be bought so not sure what’s that about.

Obviously, when one’s needs are vague and undefined, then they are going to lose out on a lot of things.

You don’t need to monitor the market. Just look at updates once in a while and see what happens during big events and holidays. Everything else is literally pennies. I mean how often do you need to swap stats on insignias? Probaly only when new stats come out or balance changes affect old ones. Not very common and even estimating 10-15 insignias, the long term swing is what? 200’ish gold at worse? Not even enough for 2 pieces of ascended gear.

So I sell 1000 mithril @40c for 3.4g. I later need 2000 mithril and now it sells for 1s. I now have to pay 16.6g. Wow, big deal.

Then again, I guess everyone has their own approach. I just don’t believe in trying to predict the future. TP boogiemen making extra coin is really none of my business.

I suddenly decided that I want to craft more Ascended gear and needed thick leather. I was selling most of my thick leather for past months. Big deal? No. Just required a lower buy order. In fact, I made a mistake and should have done lower, but hey is that extra gold going to kill me? Now that price dropped even further I’m just glad I can now order leather for even cheaper now.

ArchonWing.9480:

Well, again, that’s what I mean by having no concrete goals. If I need to stockpile X material, then I will leave whatever amount is needed minus the amount I expect to gain from just salvaging materials. That’s just simple planning.

Obviously, when one’s needs are vague and undefined, then they are going to lose out on a lot of things.

You don’t need to monitor the market. Just look at updates once in a while and see what happens during big events and holidays. Everything else is literally pennies. I mean how often do you need to swap stats on insignias? Probaly only when new stats come out or balance changes affect old ones. Not very common and even estimating 10-15 insignias, the long term swing is what? 200’ish gold at worse? Not even enough for 2 pieces of ascended gear.

Then again, I guess everyone has their own approach. I just don’t believe in trying to predict the future. TP boogiemen making extra coin is really none of my business.

i hear insignia is like 65 gold right now, so thats 650-800 gold assuming 10-15. and its not the tp boogeyman.
assuming the item keeps the same value, you lose 15% if there is general inflation, more than that.
if you have your behavior, selling what you dont need, you are likely to be late when the changes happen and will need the items when they introduce new things, which is when they tend to go up.
so your just losing money.

in beginning some gold spending returns value, but later on, not much.

they also arent trying to predict, thats why they wont sell it when it goes up or even as it drops.

ArchonWing.9480:

So I sell 1000 mithril @40c for 3.4g. I later need 2000 mithril and now it sells for 1s. I now have to pay 16.6g. Wow, big deal.

Then again, I guess everyone has their own approach. I just don’t believe in trying to predict the future. TP boogiemen making extra coin is really none of my business.

I suddenly decided that I want to craft more Ascended gear and needed thick leather. I was selling most of my thick leather for past months. Big deal? No. Just required a lower buy order. In fact, I made a mistake and should have done lower, but hey is that extra gold going to kill me? Now that price dropped even further I’m just glad I can now order leather for even cheaper now.

unless you win the gamble they will have everything you want faster. you will spend more resources for less gains.

split yourself into two yous, one buys now, the others saves, both of you will eventually have the same stuff, you will get it first, but overall he will get it faster if only due to tax.

unless you win at the market

phys.7689:

ArchonWing.9480:

Well, again, that’s what I mean by having no concrete goals. If I need to stockpile X material, then I will leave whatever amount is needed minus the amount I expect to gain from just salvaging materials. That’s just simple planning.

Obviously, when one’s needs are vague and undefined, then they are going to lose out on a lot of things.

You don’t need to monitor the market. Just look at updates once in a while and see what happens during big events and holidays. Everything else is literally pennies. I mean how often do you need to swap stats on insignias? Probaly only when new stats come out or balance changes affect old ones. Not very common and even estimating 10-15 insignias, the long term swing is what? 200’ish gold at worse? Not even enough for 2 pieces of ascended gear.

Then again, I guess everyone has their own approach. I just don’t believe in trying to predict the future. TP boogiemen making extra coin is really none of my business.

i hear insignia is like 65 gold right now, so thats 650-800 gold assuming 10-15. and its not the tp boogeyman.

Uhh… no. The most expensive insignia I could find was the Trailblazer’s one which is 28 gold and that’s due to the lilies. Your average insignia does not cost that much.

If you rely on hearsay, then the problems are evident.

As for the rest, I’m just going to say it’s really not applicable at all to me.

ArchonWing.9480:

I’m not sure how well people are at farming liquid gold, but I like to keep a healthy amount of gems converted from gold to get whatever I need.

And if you have nothing to buy, then what use is wealth to begin with?

You people worry way too much. This isn’t real life where not having funds means you get kicked out or starve to death. So what if you missed out on hundreds or even thousands of potential gold? This is nothing over years of game time. Perhaps some of you should play some strategy games like Starcraft or Civlization. There you will realize that sometimes due to snowball effects that small advantages right now are more important than big advantages later.

Why is this? Well, that’s easy. Let’s say someone gives you $500 now. Or they could give you $30 once a year for the next 50 years. Assuming you could do something useful with the $500, it’s pretty obvious you should take the $500 even ignoring inflation. Because you could use the $500 to do something that will further your cause.

This is even more true for this game, because at this rate, one could continually “hoard” until they stop playing, and never actualize any of its benefit. What’s the point?

Just play the game. The more you cling onto how little you have, the less you will have.

I don’t consider I have less by not liquidating my hoarded materials. I just have more options and have yet to make a decision on something I want. Until then I’m not gambling away materials “just because”.

Then again, your reason to get gems is the same reason people keep their materials. Why get gems if you at that moment don’t know what for? Just because to have a certain amount of gems? Seems just as much a waste to keep that around.

A lot of gem store sales involving things are time limited, but also at predictable intervals. Furthermore, gems are a single resource too. Unlike materials that will have limited use, gems always work in the gem store.

Things like gear and such doesn’t really go anywhere.

I never said to just “gamble” away materials just because. Hoarding items can also be a gamble if they lose value. I’m saying that in a lot of cases, it really doesn’t matter anyways in the long run and being overly scared in letting things go in a sea of should haves and would haves doesn’t seem very healthy. Of course, that really depends on the definition of gamble since there aren’t many actions with 100% certainty.

I have a very simple rule. Salvage everything that drops (check exotic first), send salvage to collections. If collections are full, sell off some. Only collection mats in my bank are T7 mats only because I can’t sell them and destroying them feels wrong.

Of course my collections can handle 2000 each now but it’s the same strategy I used when it was 250 or 1000.

ArchonWing.9480:

A lot of gem store sales involving things are time limited, but also at predictable intervals. Furthermore, gems are a single resource too. Unlike materials that will have limited use, gems always work in the gem store.

Things like gear and such doesn’t really go anywhere.

I never said to just “gamble” away materials just because. Hoarding items can also be a gamble if they lose value. I’m saying that in a lot of cases, it really doesn’t matter anyways in the long run and being overly scared in letting things go in a sea of should haves and would haves doesn’t seem very healthy. Of course, that really depends on the definition of gamble since there aren’t many actions with 100% certainty.

To make it clear, im probably closer to your behavior, i sell over a certain amount if i have specific goal, and i dont generally care too much about the losses i may take, because why worry about to tommorow.

but i recognize i have wasted tons of money doing so. Its not very effecient, and now there is a bunch of things that are back logged due to previous descisions.

Im just pointing out, they arent really crazy, they actually are extremely effecient, especially if they are not the type to pay attention to the TP speculation. Its just not a playstyle i can do, focus on nothing for a long period making incremental progress in a lot of different fronts, and keeping things around with no clear goal when i dont need them.

but its smart, and its actually the thing that, if you arent hoping to get things cheaper or sell at a more peak value, makes the most sense.

i just recognize, my particular way, is not the one that makes sense in this game.

You can summarise this entire thread this way.
I want to make something.
I dont have the mats to make what I want so I go to the TP to buy them.
Horror of horrors, the prices on the TP are far higher than I think they should be , so the economy is broken and Anet should fix it.
The bit thats missing from this argument is why are the TP prices so high.
Well its because everyone else wants to do exactly what I want to do at the same time.
Supply / demand economics 101 seems to be lost on most ppl.

mauried.5608:

You can summarise this entire thread this way.
I want to make something.
I dont have the mats to make what I want so I go to the TP to buy them.
Horror of horrors, the prices on the TP are far higher than I think they should be , so the economy is broken and Anet should fix it.
The bit thats missing from this argument is why are the TP prices so high.
Well its because everyone else wants to do exactly what I want to do at the same time.
Supply / demand economics 101 seems to be lost on most ppl.

actually you didnt read the OP at all, he isnt complaining about prices, he is explaining why he doesnt think anet should think of player behaviour of saving as irrational or hoarding, he goes on to say how he thinks he could solve the problem IF anet decided they want to solve it.

The point of the thread is not TP prices being high

Depends on your starting assumptions.

ANet’s seems to be if everything eventually revolve around gold and storage is somewhat limited, players “logically” will sell what they don’t need today or in excess of collections storage (250-2000 is enough for everybody). Doubly so if the price is attractive to sell, thus pushing the price down as supply exceeds demand.

Except savvy players realize that selling now will cost them 18+% more to buy later if the price remains stable but that may be fine over the long term. Now if the item is increasing in price faster than the general economy, maybe selling is a bad idea. A single mule character with default bag slots equip with 20 slot bags can hold 100 stacks or 25,000 mats.

So I think ANet assumes players run lean with mats they don’t need while players fill their collections, only then notice the price and only then decide if selling or saving for a rainy day is more favorable to them. I’m ignoring the players who are actively speculating, who buy and hold as a matter of course.

phys.7689:

ArchonWing.9480:

A lot of gem store sales involving things are time limited, but also at predictable intervals. Furthermore, gems are a single resource too. Unlike materials that will have limited use, gems always work in the gem store.

Things like gear and such doesn’t really go anywhere.

I never said to just “gamble” away materials just because. Hoarding items can also be a gamble if they lose value. I’m saying that in a lot of cases, it really doesn’t matter anyways in the long run and being overly scared in letting things go in a sea of should haves and would haves doesn’t seem very healthy. Of course, that really depends on the definition of gamble since there aren’t many actions with 100% certainty.

To make it clear, im probably closer to your behavior, i sell over a certain amount if i have specific goal, and i dont generally care too much about the losses i may take, because why worry about to tommorow.

but i recognize i have wasted tons of money doing so. Its not very effecient, and now there is a bunch of things that are back logged due to previous descisions.

Im just pointing out, they arent really crazy, they actually are extremely effecient, especially if they are not the type to pay attention to the TP speculation. Its just not a playstyle i can do, focus on nothing for a long period making incremental progress in a lot of different fronts, and keeping things around with no clear goal when i dont need them.

but its smart, and its actually the thing that, if you arent hoping to get things cheaper or sell at a more peak value, makes the most sense.

i just recognize, my particular way, is not the one that makes sense in this game.

Oh, I’m not the most efficient either. Pinching the virtual pennies just isn’t my thing.

But I’d just like to pass the idea that there’s a just a few easy tips and tricks to close the gap a little, so to speak. You certainly won’t be able to get the best, and sure maybe stuff you sell gets flipped someday, but I think getting a usable share of stuff is feasible and I never spend more than 2 minutes looking at any charts.

Well, except crafting. That sorta sucks; I actually do have to like open a spreadsheet to get a better estimate of what I will need. 12,000 leather. :S

ArchonWing.9480:

phys.7689:

ArchonWing.9480:

Well, again, that’s what I mean by having no concrete goals. If I need to stockpile X material, then I will leave whatever amount is needed minus the amount I expect to gain from just salvaging materials. That’s just simple planning.

Obviously, when one’s needs are vague and undefined, then they are going to lose out on a lot of things.

You don’t need to monitor the market. Just look at updates once in a while and see what happens during big events and holidays. Everything else is literally pennies. I mean how often do you need to swap stats on insignias? Probaly only when new stats come out or balance changes affect old ones. Not very common and even estimating 10-15 insignias, the long term swing is what? 200’ish gold at worse? Not even enough for 2 pieces of ascended gear.

Then again, I guess everyone has their own approach. I just don’t believe in trying to predict the future. TP boogiemen making extra coin is really none of my business.

i hear insignia is like 65 gold right now, so thats 650-800 gold assuming 10-15. and its not the tp boogeyman.

Uhh… no. The most expensive insignia I could find was the Trailblazer’s one which is 28 gold and that’s due to the lilies. Your average insignia does not cost that much.

If you rely on hearsay, then the problems are evident.

As for the rest, I’m just going to say it’s really not applicable at all to me.

I think when people say insignias are prices this high they mean ascended insignias which DO cost that much.

Fremtid.3528:

ArchonWing.9480:

phys.7689:

ArchonWing.9480:

Well, again, that’s what I mean by having no concrete goals. If I need to stockpile X material, then I will leave whatever amount is needed minus the amount I expect to gain from just salvaging materials. That’s just simple planning.

Obviously, when one’s needs are vague and undefined, then they are going to lose out on a lot of things.

You don’t need to monitor the market. Just look at updates once in a while and see what happens during big events and holidays. Everything else is literally pennies. I mean how often do you need to swap stats on insignias? Probaly only when new stats come out or balance changes affect old ones. Not very common and even estimating 10-15 insignias, the long term swing is what? 200’ish gold at worse? Not even enough for 2 pieces of ascended gear.

Then again, I guess everyone has their own approach. I just don’t believe in trying to predict the future. TP boogiemen making extra coin is really none of my business.

i hear insignia is like 65 gold right now, so thats 650-800 gold assuming 10-15. and its not the tp boogeyman.

Uhh… no. The most expensive insignia I could find was the Trailblazer’s one which is 28 gold and that’s due to the lilies. Your average insignia does not cost that much.

If you rely on hearsay, then the problems are evident.

As for the rest, I’m just going to say it’s really not applicable at all to me.

I think when people say insignias are prices this high they mean ascended insignias which DO cost that much.

Actually we were talking about stat changing ascended armor, and that requires exotic insignias. It’s relevant to the topic because Hardened leather is a big part of it.

The bulk of ascended insignia’s cost does not come from hardened leather. It’s the elonian leather/damask, but since this topic is on hardened leather, this is very tangential.

And even for ascended insignia, the cost is closer to 50g: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special:RunQuery/Base_ingredients_query&Base_ingredients%5Bitem%5D=Zojja%27s%20Berserker%20Insignia&Base_ingredients%5Bid%5D=7889&Base_ingredients%5Bquantity%5D=1&wpRunQuery=true

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special:RunQuery/Base_ingredients_query&Base_ingredients%5Bitem%5D=Yassith%27s%20Viper%27s%20Insignia&Base_ingredients%5Bid%5D=11371&Base_ingredients%5Bquantity%5D=1&wpRunQuery=true

Trailblazer, is of course, the big exception
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special:RunQuery/Base_ingredients_query&Base_ingredients%5Bitem%5D=Pahua%27s%20Trailblazer%27s%20Insignia&Base_ingredients%5Bid%5D=10430&Base_ingredients%5Bquantity%5D=1&wpRunQuery=true

And this is assuming that you use “buy instantly”. Understandably, you have to deal with dark matter and obsidian shards though. This doesn’t mean it’s cheap by any means, mind you.

Ironically, that means the best argument against the current state of exotic crafting is that if it’s not that much cheaper than ascended, then it becomes pretty inferior as a choice, I would assume. In fact, my advice to people consists of telling people to wear cheap non-craft exotics, and whatever armor rewards they find in HoT maps, and then skip directly to ascended things, with ls3 trinkets being a priority. in b4 opinion police

mauried.5608:

You can summarise this entire thread this way.
I want to make something.
I dont have the mats to make what I want so I go to the TP to buy them.
Horror of horrors, the prices on the TP are far higher than I think they should be , so the economy is broken and Anet should fix it.
The bit thats missing from this argument is why are the TP prices so high.
Well its because everyone else wants to do exactly what I want to do at the same time.
Supply / demand economics 101 seems to be lost on most ppl.

No, “Supply/demand economics” aren’t lost on anyone here – everyone knows the demand outstrips the supply of these items. Yes, prices on the TP are ‘so high’ because ‘everyone’ wants to buy the materials – because they can’t get enough on their own, and there aren’t enough people who DON’T want the materials they have and are willing to sell. That’s the problem with Leather – It’s a basic material everyone needs. In order for the economy to be healthy, there needs to be a balance of people more than they want and willing to sell, and people without enough and willing to buy.

Sartharina.3542:

No, “Supply/demand economics” aren’t lost on anyone here – everyone knows the demand outstrips the supply of these items. Yes, prices on the TP are ‘so high’ because ‘everyone’ wants to buy the materials – because they can’t get enough on their own, and there aren’t enough people who DON’T want the materials they have and are willing to sell. That’s the problem with Leather – It’s a basic material everyone needs. In order for the economy to be healthy, there needs to be a balance of people more than they want and willing to sell, and people without enough and willing to buy.

You’re confusing “healthy” economy with a “cheap goods” economy. Healthy simply means that anyone can buy whatever they need and anyone can sell whatever they need, that supply or demand cannot be controlled by a consortium.

Leather might be expensive, it might even be “too expensive” (if we can ever agree on what that means). But I can still buy as much as I want. (It just turns out at these prices, I don’t want to buy nearly as much.)

I don’t have a problem with ANet doing something so it’s easier to get leather or so that we don’t have to spend as much. I don’t even mind that if they do so, it would cost me a lot coin. (Either because I bought too much or because I tried to sell stuff made with leather for too much.)

But the only reason to do so is because of the price. That’s not an “economic” argument — it’s a quality of life concern (or a design preference, if you believe that cloth and metal armor should cost around the same as leather armor)

tl;dr proponents of a change to supply or demand or leather undermine their suggestion by appealing to economics. I believe ANet would be more concerned if more people point out that it’s demoralizing to them.

Anet reduced drop rates, increased refinement costs, added squares to existing recipients that had no leather in the past, set bare minimum prices on tp, and then added leather in large quanities in their new recipients. Oh also forced pvp players and the like to craft with leather to get their ascended. Everything about leather is broken and it’s a sick joke on Anets part that is for sure.

Mystic Coins are different however if people started buying up corn in vast quantities wouldn’t everyone start putting corn fields in their back yards. When demand gets high production increases and people try to get a slice and the prices settle. In this instance people can’t up there production of coins to meet demand.

Leather needs backtracking they should have never tampered with the market while MC will explode there’s no way around it. The devs made an official statement yesterday that the expansion would follow the season cadence so it comes in the fall. Thus prices will only skyrocket with no way for people to meet the demand the hoarders will never sell without a way to restock and those who’d want to sell probably have already. Prices will get high rather fast people are going to craft before the expac hits and everyone under the sun will hoard. It’s tradition to hoard as much as you can before an expac after all regardless of the game.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

tl;dr proponents of a change to supply or demand or leather undermine their suggestion by appealing to economics. I believe ANet would be more concerned if more people point out that it’s demoralizing to them.

Here’s my economic appeal: “Can I get a refund on the gems I spent for two character slots that I’m never going to use because I won’t be able to afford to craft the armor for a thief and engineer?”

Kaltyn of Torbins Deep.2946:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

tl;dr proponents of a change to supply or demand or leather undermine their suggestion by appealing to economics. I believe ANet would be more concerned if more people point out that it’s demoralizing to them.

Here’s my economic appeal: “Can I get a refund on the gems I spent for two character slots that I’m never going to use because I won’t be able to afford to craft the armor for a thief and engineer?”

That’s not true though … anyone can earn gold in this game to buy stuff. It’s simply your choice to not spend it on what you need to craft med armors. I’m not sure that a choice you make warrants a refund on gems you spent.

The problem with coins and with leather, as with any other kind of such items – i will hoard it as much as i can because i know i will need A LOT of it at some point and will go poor if i tried to buy it off tp. It is just not worth it. The price keeps going up over years and you would be a fool to sell those items.

i think the problem is that most of these items are balanced as luxury items, but they really arent.

a good that is desired for its usability, is not really a luxury item. anet wants to use luxury items to benefit poorer players, probably because in this game, the wealthy provide limited benefit to the poor. (no new jobs or buildings or technologies, art or culture)

the concept behind mystic coins is, a good that wealthy players need to get from poorer players
the concept behind insane amounts of basic goods needed for items, is only wealthy players need that much.

the flaw is, ascended and legendaries arent luxuries, they are items you need as the game matures.
ascended has better stats, and legendaries offer unique functionality, and represent the first time you are no longer renting your gear. (due to balance changes, and new stat combos)

so essentially they are items that you will eventually need. which means the only incentive to selling these items is as credit.

which leads to the other problem, most of the things you may need credit for, dont compete with ascended/legendary and the items you need for them. people most need a line of credit, to get the things that you want them to sell for credit.

overall this leads to many of these goods falling outside the economy, too expensive to buy, too necessary to sell.

so the supply is not being used effeciently, which exacerbates the cost, and makes people hoard more than they need.

Legendaries are absolutely luxury items. And ascended really has nothing to do with this conversation as they don’t require mystic coins or T6 leather.

ArchonWing.9480:

Fremtid.3528:

ArchonWing.9480:

phys.7689:

ArchonWing.9480:

Well, again, that’s what I mean by having no concrete goals. If I need to stockpile X material, then I will leave whatever amount is needed minus the amount I expect to gain from just salvaging materials. That’s just simple planning.

Obviously, when one’s needs are vague and undefined, then they are going to lose out on a lot of things.

You don’t need to monitor the market. Just look at updates once in a while and see what happens during big events and holidays. Everything else is literally pennies. I mean how often do you need to swap stats on insignias? Probaly only when new stats come out or balance changes affect old ones. Not very common and even estimating 10-15 insignias, the long term swing is what? 200’ish gold at worse? Not even enough for 2 pieces of ascended gear.

Then again, I guess everyone has their own approach. I just don’t believe in trying to predict the future. TP boogiemen making extra coin is really none of my business.

i hear insignia is like 65 gold right now, so thats 650-800 gold assuming 10-15. and its not the tp boogeyman.

Uhh… no. The most expensive insignia I could find was the Trailblazer’s one which is 28 gold and that’s due to the lilies. Your average insignia does not cost that much.

If you rely on hearsay, then the problems are evident.

As for the rest, I’m just going to say it’s really not applicable at all to me.

I think when people say insignias are prices this high they mean ascended insignias which DO cost that much.

Actually we were talking about stat changing ascended armor, and that requires exotic insignias. It’s relevant to the topic because Hardened leather is a big part of it.

The bulk of ascended insignia’s cost does not come from hardened leather. It’s the elonian leather/damask, but since this topic is on hardened leather, this is very tangential.

And even for ascended insignia, the cost is closer to 50g: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special:RunQuery/Base_ingredients_query&Base_ingredients%5Bitem%5D=Zojja%27s%20Berserker%20Insignia&Base_ingredients%5Bid%5D=7889&Base_ingredients%5Bquantity%5D=1&wpRunQuery=true

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special:RunQuery/Base_ingredients_query&Base_ingredients%5Bitem%5D=Yassith%27s%20Viper%27s%20Insignia&Base_ingredients%5Bid%5D=11371&Base_ingredients%5Bquantity%5D=1&wpRunQuery=true

Trailblazer, is of course, the big exception
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special:RunQuery/Base_ingredients_query&Base_ingredients%5Bitem%5D=Pahua%27s%20Trailblazer%27s%20Insignia&Base_ingredients%5Bid%5D=10430&Base_ingredients%5Bquantity%5D=1&wpRunQuery=true

And this is assuming that you use “buy instantly”. Understandably, you have to deal with dark matter and obsidian shards though. This doesn’t mean it’s cheap by any means, mind you.

Ironically, that means the best argument against the current state of exotic crafting is that if it’s not that much cheaper than ascended, then it becomes pretty inferior as a choice, I would assume. In fact, my advice to people consists of telling people to wear cheap non-craft exotics, and whatever armor rewards they find in HoT maps, and then skip directly to ascended things, with ls3 trinkets being a priority. in b4 opinion police

I know this is hard to believe but a lot of people mistakenly believe to stat change an ascended you need an ascended insignia. I’ve seen it said here time and time before and a few times no one has corrected the person.

MachineManXX.9746:

Legendaries are absolutely luxury items. And ascended really has nothing to do with this conversation as they don’t require mystic coins or T6 leather.

changing stats is not a luxury, its a utility.

a luxury item is an item that has a direct relationship with its demand, ie its more desirable to rich people.
caviar, pearls, a lamborgini.

ascended and legendaries are desired from the moment you hit 80, regardless of wealth, because they are best in slot. and legendary is best in slot forever, for all situations.

people think that luxury and neccesity are the only two classifications of a good, but they wrong. just cause you dont need it to survive doesnt mean its a luxury.

a car is not a luxury if the normal course of your life, it is in your best interest to drive

an exp booster is not a luxury item, it has the same demand from a rich person and a poor person.

it seems the primary use of hardened leather is making insignias which are worth less than exotic armor that dont use leather to exist.

essentially hardened leather is the material of altering your ascended items stats. which is apparently a lot more common than it used to be. probably because of raids and possibly a more difficult open world.
there is no longer one size fits all, and items can be shared among charachters.

regardless of wether you think its a luxury or not, for some regular players its an item they will need later, that they dont feel should cost as much as it does, so they keep it, so they wont have to try to farm it later, or pay market value.

Doam.8305:

Anet reduced drop rates, increased refinement costs, added squares to existing recipients that had no leather in the past, set bare minimum prices on tp, and then added leather in large quanities in their new recipients. Oh also forced pvp players and the like to craft with leather to get their ascended. Everything about leather is broken and it’s a sick joke on Anets part that is for sure.

I haven’t see a reduced drop rate for leather. Also they can’t set bare minimum prices on the TP unless you are talking about the NPC price which hasn’t changed from 8 copper since launch for T6.

I do agree that adding another drain on leather with Fractal and PvP ascended crafting requirements without adding another source is an issue. I don’t have an issue with balancing PvP and Fractal acquisition with marks, just not providing additional sources for T2-T5 leather. Well I guess T6 is needed for those who have to level up leatherworker but that’s one time.

Kaltyn of Torbins Deep.2946:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

tl;dr proponents of a change to supply or demand or leather undermine their suggestion by appealing to economics. I believe ANet would be more concerned if more people point out that it’s demoralizing to them.

Here’s my economic appeal: “Can I get a refund on the gems I spent for two character slots that I’m never going to use because I won’t be able to afford to craft the armor for a thief and engineer?”

Try instead the following:
“ANet: I lost interest in playing new characters because I’m daunted by the cost of outfitting them with medium armor.”

My point is that you don’t have to argue the economics — that’s a losing battle for anyone who (a) hasn’t trained in MMO economics and (b) doesn’t have access to the game data. John Smith and Mike O’Brien love data analysis and they are good at it.

They sometimes forget that data isn’t what drives us to play; it’s simply a way to try to estimate our interests. It’s up to us to remind them that there are human beings behind the numbers and that, regardless of whether the economy is healthy, some people might not be enjoying themselves because of the costs.

Again, I don’t have a problem with ANet rebalancing the recipes for leather — I’d even prefer it to the status quo. At the same time, I also don’t have a problem with the current costs — I can buy all I need (I simply don’t enjoy it).

(And again, I strongly recommend separating the discussion of leather from mystic coins — they bear little in common except that both can be deposited to material storage. )

phys.7689:

MachineManXX.9746:

Legendaries are absolutely luxury items. And ascended really has nothing to do with this conversation as they don’t require mystic coins or T6 leather.

changing stats is not a luxury, its a utility.

a luxury item is an item that has a direct relationship with its demand, ie its more desirable to rich people.
caviar, pearls, a lamborgini.

ascended and legendaries are desired from the moment you hit 80, regardless of wealth, because they are best in slot. and legendary is best in slot forever, for all situations.

people think that luxury and neccesity are the only two classifications of a good, but they wrong. just cause you dont need it to survive doesnt mean its a luxury.

a car is not a luxury if the normal course of your life, it is in your best interest to drive

an exp booster is not a luxury item, it has the same demand from a rich person and a poor person.

it seems the primary use of hardened leather is making insignias which are worth less than exotic armor that dont use leather to exist.

essentially hardened leather is the material of altering your ascended items stats. which is apparently a lot more common than it used to be. probably because of raids and possibly a more difficult open world.
there is no longer one size fits all, and items can be shared among charachters.

regardless of wether you think its a luxury or not, for some regular players its an item they will need later, that they dont feel should cost as much as it does, so they keep it, so they wont have to try to farm it later, or pay market value.

They are luxury items. Its the skin people want, and (AFAIK, correct me if I’m wrong) at the start of the game they didn’t even have the ability to stat swap. That was added later to add an incentive to spend the huge amount of gold it took to get a leg weapon.

Ppl always talk about MC and Leather but what about Lodestones some of them are around 2g and you need a stack for some legendary.

While its not particularly fun if you need an entire stack, you can at least go out and earn your lodestones through map bonus rewards. You can’t do that with MC at all, and no map bonus reward includes leather

OriOri.8724:

While its not particularly fun if you need an entire stack, you can at least go out and earn your lodestones through map bonus rewards. You can’t do that with MC at all, and no map bonus reward includes leather

Hardened Leather does appear as a map bonus reward (just not this week).

OriOri.8724:

Host Tar.8436:

I’ve been so badly hurt financially when I’ve sold off stuff in previous years only to then need 1000s of it to craft something, that I hoard everything!! Pretty much every single crafting mat from the dregs to the very most expensive, I keep. I have a storage expansion to 500, when I hit that, I transfer to mules, & keep on filling up. I have ten of thousands of some mats. I don’t care, never again will I be pray to TP manipulators, recipe changes & new items spiking stuff. It’s a false economy when so much can be manipulated by wealthy players. I remember the very early days when it all started, when leg weps & precursors were simply bought out by a few players & then drip-fed back into the market when required. It happens all the time with everything that has any value, low to high. So now, I simply save absolutely everything.

You definitely take this to the extreme, but you point out a valid concern that a lot of players have regarding “hoarding” their items.

Anet has a history, especially in the last few years, of introducing new recipes/changing old recipes to require absolutely massive amounts of some mats. So why on earth would we have an incentive to sell something it, at any time, Anet could change a recipe to now require hundreds, or even thousands, of whatever items we just dumped our entire stock of? For a lot of players this risk isn’t worth the temporary reward of a few more silver, or a few more gold, because it has the potential to cost them way more than what they make in the long run.

Please give me an example of recipes that require thousands of one material.

Are you serious? Ascended medium chestpiece. Requires 1,600 T5 leather pieces to craft the traditional way, requires 1,840 T5 leather if you use the new grandmaster marks system.

OriOri.8724:

Are you serious? Ascended medium chestpiece. Requires 1,600 T5 leather pieces to craft the traditional way, requires 1,840 T5 leather if you use the new grandmaster marks system.

Well to be pedantic, that’s thousand, not thousands. Full set certainly but for a single item?

Behellagh.1468:

OriOri.8724:

Are you serious? Ascended medium chestpiece. Requires 1,600 T5 leather pieces to craft the traditional way, requires 1,840 T5 leather if you use the new grandmaster marks system.

Well to be pedantic, that’s thousand, not thousands. Full set certainly but for a single item?

Mystic Chest requires 3000 Thick Leather Sections. /pedant

Both of those recipes require closer to 2000 than 1000 T5 leather, so I don’t think its incorrect to say they require thousand*s* of T5 leather. And note, that’s only 1 of the many mats needed for them. All told, it requires a grand total of over 2,000 leather pieces and 1,150 cloth pieces, among various other items in substantially lower quantities, for this single item if you craft the traditional way (with similar numbers, among ~500-600 ore if you use the grandmaster marks).

The amount of mats needed for crafting is extremely high.

Crafting ascended armor is the most unwise thing to do in GW2.

Kaltyn of Torbins Deep.2946:

Behellagh.1468:

OriOri.8724:

Are you serious? Ascended medium chestpiece. Requires 1,600 T5 leather pieces to craft the traditional way, requires 1,840 T5 leather if you use the new grandmaster marks system.

Well to be pedantic, that’s thousand, not thousands. Full set certainly but for a single item?

Mystic Chest requires 3000 Thick Leather Sections. /pedant

Didn’t know that, thanks, was focusing on armor.

RedBaron.6058:

Crafting ascended armor is the most unwise thing to do in GW2.

How else are you supposed to acquire it now short of just getting absurdly lucky and getting an ascended armor box from T1/2 fractals?

OriOri.8724:

phys.7689:

MachineManXX.9746:

Legendaries are absolutely luxury items. And ascended really has nothing to do with this conversation as they don’t require mystic coins or T6 leather.

changing stats is not a luxury, its a utility.

a luxury item is an item that has a direct relationship with its demand, ie its more desirable to rich people.
caviar, pearls, a lamborgini.

ascended and legendaries are desired from the moment you hit 80, regardless of wealth, because they are best in slot. and legendary is best in slot forever, for all situations.

people think that luxury and neccesity are the only two classifications of a good, but they wrong. just cause you dont need it to survive doesnt mean its a luxury.

a car is not a luxury if the normal course of your life, it is in your best interest to drive

an exp booster is not a luxury item, it has the same demand from a rich person and a poor person.

it seems the primary use of hardened leather is making insignias which are worth less than exotic armor that dont use leather to exist.

essentially hardened leather is the material of altering your ascended items stats. which is apparently a lot more common than it used to be. probably because of raids and possibly a more difficult open world.
there is no longer one size fits all, and items can be shared among charachters.

regardless of wether you think its a luxury or not, for some regular players its an item they will need later, that they dont feel should cost as much as it does, so they keep it, so they wont have to try to farm it later, or pay market value.

They are luxury items. Its the skin people want, and (AFAIK, correct me if I’m wrong) at the start of the game they didn’t even have the ability to stat swap. That was added later to add an incentive to spend the huge amount of gold it took to get a leg weapon.

its actually not the skin people want.

yes, it used to be a luxury item, exotic and legendary were the top teir, and there was no extra utility of the item.

that changed when they added ascended and stat switching.
other changes increased the value and made it more of a utility item.
meta shifts with more viable gear combinations and combination focused nerfs
new gear combinations
sharing legendary and ascended between charachters
raid designs with various immunities

take a look at the legendary armor thread, a number of people made the item then instantly transmuted it. a number of people have asked for a skinless/reskin to be made for other content.

legendaries are no longer a luxury item, they are a long term investment into your account.
its like buying a house.

best in slot forever, on whatever charachter can use that item.

OriOri.8724:

RedBaron.6058:

Crafting ascended armor is the most unwise thing to do in GW2.

How else are you supposed to acquire it now short of just getting absurdly lucky and getting an ascended armor box from T1/2 fractals?

Raiding. You can buy armor for shards. Yes, it is time gated but at least you won’t need to blow 29048203840832048230482 gold for the set.

Crafting is not worth it atm, period.

And to support poster above me, main reason why crated legendary weapons, backpiece and armor is because of ability to stat change. The skins are not THAT good (maybe beside few weapons) that i personally would be willing to invest so much. The stat change on other hand offers flexibility and free bag space.

For a lot of people its easier/more enjoyable to farm gold and craft ascended than it is to get into raiding.

I’m still salty about the change to buying ascended gear from fractal vendors. That was put in specifically to be an alternative to crafting it, which is why the change annoys me.

Cynz.9437:

Raiding.

Is not an option for the vast majority of players. They don’t have the time to coordinate a run with 9 other people, and learn the mechanics of each boss, nor do they have the skill and understanding of their class and rotations to actually kill bosses. There’s no way they’re getting the DPS they need even already owning full ascended (I am a significantly above-average player. I’m still not good enough to raid reliably without a lot of carrying, even though I already have full ascended gear)

Anyone who says raiding in this game is viable for anything not specifically aimed at raiders is in dire need of recalibrating their understanding of the game’s playerbase.