Guild Wars 2

Forum bug? 15 chars

Epoch.5396:

Being elite means adapting and still owning and if you pull your team out of the fire your the hero. Being elitist means desperately trying to emulate this and never quite understanding what it means. Creating the highest possible chance for success because you aren’t good enough to carry the team or guide them.

Epoch.5396:

dom.2748:

I am not sure how expecting tools to confirm that your party requirements are met makes one an elitist. But if that is the case then I gladly accept the title.

You dont get to confirm. Thats the point. Its an MMO, people in the world are random.

Sometimes in life you get a crap team. Sometimes they are amazing.

Its part of the fun. Being elite means adapting and still owning and if you pull your team out of the fire your the hero. Being elitist means desperately trying to emulate this and never quite understanding what it means. Creating the highest possible chance for success because you aren’t good enough to carry the team or guide them.

Using the easy completion as a"psuedo win" whilst thinking it counts towards being elite. When its the complete opposite.

Thats the AP crowd.

The speed runners are just after a fast gold grind which is a lot different.

This.

So much this.

One of the best healers I met, in WoW, used to hope for new/less good players, as they made the game more fun and challenging for him.

That is what being “elite” truly means.

Being so good, you can rise to the challenge and quietly carry whole teams, if necessary.

That is what being a hero means.

dom.2748:

I am not sure how expecting tools to confirm that your party requirements are met makes one an elitist. But if that is the case then I gladly accept the title.

you did notice that OP was talking about kicking people for haviing low ap despite it not being in the party requirements, didn’t you?

Also, knowing how high my ap is, and how noob of a player i am (or would seem to most of those elitists), i can only laugh at this requirement.

Managed to grind a char on a free account to lvl 30. Now with 130ap time to level in dungeons and see how many times I get kicked!

Someone got booted from a party for low ap and the group didn’t specify seems legit not elitists.

Why do some many believe that having an optimal party setup is so necessary in this game? It isn’t. Fractal 50 which is supposed to be the hardest content can be 3 ar 4 manned. We do it almost every night in my guild and sell the remaining spots.

Although I don’t agree with elitism and find it toxic it’s part of human nature and there is nothing that can be done to change that. The real problem ( 2 part) are those who use the lfg incorrectly.

I see so many posts that aren’t clearly identified or in the wrong content groups.If you are expecting something specific from your pug make sure you clearly label it, it drastically increases you odds of getting what you are looking for and avoids unnecessary negative situations.

The other part of the problem are those who don’t read the group requirements and just click join and then cry because they got kicked. Seriously, take the time to read. It will avoid a lot of unnecessary negative situations.

Anet has decided that they do not want to encourage so called elitism so don’t expect them to put a lot of effort into making the LFG more restrictive. It’s up to the players to manage themselves.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Epoch.5396:

Being elite means adapting and still owning and if you pull your team out of the fire your the hero. Being elitist means desperately trying to emulate this and never quite understanding what it means. Creating the highest possible chance for success because you aren’t good enough to carry the team or guide them.

Actually Elitist would be preference for Elites and believing they are better – from your definition of Elite you fall into this category. You don’t just get to make up new definitions of words to suit yourself..

How do you even check ap for someone else?

I have like 13k…

This is an unfortunate side effect of Anet’s refusal to put adequate tools in the game to form groups.

This won’t fly in raids. If anet does not add ways to check gear or dps then players will make their own tools or they simply won’t do raids and Anet will have wasted their time.

Requesting peoples API keys will be the future :P
The guild I recently joined already asked me for it.
(elitist here)

If people think elitesm exist now… just wait for raids and high end fractal’s… I run with a zerker group now, yes we request zerker’s or rather a zerker since we’re usually missing 1 person, and we’re polite enough to have the person who is running full blown sentenil gear and running traps (a thief we got paired with yest. For example, and at the end of the path openly admitted and boasted about his sentenil gear) to at least finish that path. And then inform him hes not what we’re looking for. Though much like that thief, some player’s feel entitled to run with other’s, and thier playstyle simply because they belive they have what it takes to solo the world and our doing everyone around them a favor. Elitesm comes in 2 ways in this game 1: the aholes who kick immediately who think it’s all about the AP (who honestly are dumb, since their can be GREAT player’s out there with low AP) and 2: people who give others the chance to run with them through 1 full path and only kick when people afk without any notice or heads up (which is beyond annoying, especially when it’s mid battle), or have finished the path, only to find out they didn’t read the groups request on gear. At the end of the day people who QQ about the meta need to realize that no1 is forcing them to play with zerker’s and they can start their own lfg with or without any requests. Zerk groups are made out of preference, not made out to kitten people off. Goodluck out their everyone!

Tldr:
Not all zerker groups are vile.
Not all pugs are honest.
Not all pugs play hard.

I tend to get 3-4 exotic/ascended DPS characters (3k-25.5k AP) when I ask for l80 EXP
takes 1-2 minutes runs tend to go without fails

I tend to get 3-4 exotic/ascended Zerk characters (0,5k-7,5k AP) when I ask for l80 ZERK
takes 30 secs runs tend to go with occasional wipes

I tend to get 3-4 players using ? (1k-25.5k AP) when I ask for l80 META
takes 1-5 minutes runs go with occasional wipes and a lot of elitism and friction

I tend to get 4 players using ZERK (2.5k-28K AP when I ask for l80 ZERK PING
takes 2-10 minutes runs go mostly without wipes and disband on wipe, Everybody comments all and any. Elitist?

I tend to skip on guild dungeon rushes (1k-25k AP) w people using mostly DPS gear
invite only, skill really dependant on players… TS normal

I tend to not do speedruns anymore (1k-25kAP) w people using dungeon gear ONLY and timer set. Runs will go flawless and make any attempts narrowing down even further after l80 EXP seem a useless effort. party on invite only. TS normal.

Regarding duration of the dungeons (fastest to slowest, depending on no wipes/resses):

1. Speedruns
2. l80 (Zerk Meta) PING (experienced)* (zerk/meta, exotic and higher, asc preferred)
3. l80 EXP (DPS zerk/assassin/sinister/zealot (could be anything) exotic and higher)
4. l80 Zerk (META) (should be zerk/meta)
5. l80 (Zerk (Meta)) PING (inexperienced, exotic and higher)
6. l80 Zerk (could (and sometimes will) be anything)
7. l80 (will be anything, often contains people with lower skill/low quality gear)
8. Open (will be anything, exotic is only available from lvl 63 up)

Regarding elitism (Worst to least IMHO)

1. l80 Zerk Meta (PING): You will know what you should do if you do not do so or kicks
2. l80 Zerk Meta: You will know what you should do and / or use if you do not do so or kicks
3. l80 Zerk: Sometimes you are informed about what you should do if you do not do so
4. Speedruns: Party will silently disband on 1st Big Error and will reform without the person who fubar-ed the run. On wipe no reform.
5. l80 Exp: Rarely sombody informs you on errors, on horrid errors: kicks or disbands
6. l80 / Open: Nobody cares as long as the job gets done.

AP as a measurement is useless, I see many friends (true speedrunners) running 2nd accounts and be kicked though they can solo many if not all soloable paths on their alt accounts as well… I also know a lot of real hardcore pve addicts who have 18k AP and NEVER do dungeons….

I have done all paths (dungeon master) I have the trinkrts for several dungeons (AC,CoF,SE, CoE and TA) but rarely if ever play CM, HotW and Arah…

1. I consider myself L80 Zerk for all 8 dungeons (
   - gear OK)
2. I consider myself L80 Zerk Meta for 5 dungeons (
   - gear OK,
   - sigils:night/force & food,
   - basic rotations)
3. I consider myself L80 EXP for 4 dungeons (
   - gear OK,
   - sigils:night/force & food,
   - advanced rotations & improvisations
   - know most paths intricately (=very well),
   - know skills/builds/abilities of self, players and enemies and their mechanics,
   - know fields and combo’s,
4. I consider myself Speedrun for 2 (maybe 4) dungeons (
   - gear OK,
   - sigils:night/force & food,
   - rotations
   - know most paths intricately (=very well),
   - know skills/builds/abilities of self, players and enemies and their mechanics,
   - know fields and combo’s,
   - specific dungeon sets/food & skill/traith choice/boss,
   - full path knowledge,
   - play without autotargetting, and consequences
   - experience in skips and runs)

Tigaseye.2047:

One of the best healers I met, in WoW, used to hope for new/less good players, as they made the game more fun and challenging for him.

I played a Cleric in Aion for quite some time, and by the end, I would help out the newer/less able players also, for the exact same reason. It scratched a challenge itch I had and it was hella-fun.

When it comes to AP in GW2 – all of us recognise it’s a bad measure of skill, but honestly, how many of us don’t cringe when we see a 500-AP player join the party? I think a more open minded view after free-to-play starting up is going to be crucial though. It’s like the game is starting again and there may well be plenty of sensible players trying out GW2 from other games that need those of us with AP in the tens of thousands to overlook their 500AP and show a little patience.

Finally, an observation. About a year into GW2 people were asking for “minimum 4k AP” players to join their groups, and these days it’s usually around 6k AP. The kind of people who impose AP restrictions in their LFG posts don’t seem to have increased their own AP very much in the last two years when a point total over 15,000 is very common to see these days. Even 20,000AP is becoming extremely common. The LFG posts never seem to take this into account.

dom.2748:

Anet refuses to add the proper tools to see if people are geared and built correctly so even though AP is a terrible indicator people use what they have because it is still better than nothing at all.

Umm, what business is it of someone else what other people have for gear? Do not trust someone when you ask what they have? Do not party with them. Even the person who has the best gear in the world might stab you in the back at the worst possible time so I have no idea why what gear someone has would make a difference.

What am I missing? I would think whether you trust someone would be FAR more important than what gear they claim to have.

I never kick someone because of AP. But if someone with less than 1k AP enter my experienced LFG I’m gonna ask him if he’s on a second account. Even then, I usually don’t kick them if they answer because I usually play with some friend and we don’t mind carrying some people in dungeon. But i’m not that nice in Arah or Fractal.

dom.2748:

Anet refuses to add the proper tools to see if people are geared and built correctly so even though AP is a terrible indicator people use what they have because it is still better than nothing at all.

I don’t mind occasionally carrying people. It takes real skill (especially with a thief, who isn’t optimized for dungeon content like warriors, guardians, or staff elementalists are) to take someone in the 50s with blues through an explorable, but if everyone has exotics and are optimized then there isn’t that push. Some fractals however have cheap mechanics.

Menadena.7482:

dom.2748:

Anet refuses to add the proper tools to see if people are geared and built correctly so even though AP is a terrible indicator people use what they have because it is still better than nothing at all.

Umm, what business is it of someone else what other people have for gear? Do not trust someone when you ask what they have? Do not party with them. Even the person who has the best gear in the world might stab you in the back at the worst possible time so I have no idea why what gear someone has would make a difference.

What am I missing? I would think whether you trust someone would be FAR more important than what gear they claim to have.

It doesn’t matter if you agree or not with the requirement that he ask. As long as he ask them, people should respect them. Because there is a lot of different people in the game, each with their preference.

I really think people make too much noise just to justify their own control obsession.

I really want to know:
Why the gear of the other players is so important?
Is not more important the skill than the gear?
And is not more important the teamwork than the individual skill?

Finally:
If all this “perfect team” thing is so important, why to play with PuGs in the first place?

That is more like Trolling, not elitism. If you are buying into this you are feeding the troll.

Ardid.7203:

I really think people make too much noise just to justify their own control obsession.

I really want to know:
Why the gear of the other players is so important?
Is not more important the skill than the gear?
And is not more important the teamwork than the individual skill?

Finally:
If all this “perfect team” thing is so important, why to play with PuGs in the first place?

Since you don’t know the person joining you have to make a judgement on skill with little info. If someone has taken the time to get best gear that means they are invested in their character and have done some reading – this can be an indicator of experience and possibly skill.

Its not a perfect system obviously but if you took 100 randomly selected full Ascended geared people with the best stats and runes with AP over w/e you want and 100 randomly selected people with no restrictions the first group will usually on average be of higher experience and possibly “skill.”

I don’t think anyone would argue with that.

Ardid.7203:

I really think people make too much noise just to justify their own control obsession.

I really want to know:
Why the gear of the other players is so important?
Is not more important the skill than the gear?
And is not more important the teamwork than the individual skill?

Finally:
If all this “perfect team” thing is so important, why to play with PuGs in the first place?

Personally, I never ask for gear check. All I ask in my lfg is level 80 experienced and If I kick, it’s because the guy searched for it.

But my question to you is why someone would have to justify his requirement? He can play the way he want, with who he want, with whatever requirement he want. How does it affect you? As long as he right them on the LFG, if you don’t like them don’t join.

If the guy like to wait and check every member, why shouldn’t be able to do so? How does his run affect your life?

I find most of those requirement useless and stupid, but it doesn’t matter because i’m not the one playing in his run. He is and he can play whatever the way he want.

As to AP being an indicator of how good someone is with a certain class … umm, ok. Yesterday I hit 5k and I was on my necro … who I just rolled on Friday. I have not ran a necro before but if you went solely by my AP you would not think that. Just, oh, do something like ask.

No, saying something in LFG like ‘experienced players only’ (what is experienced?) or setting a minimum AP requirement does not tell you that. I would give a cursory listing of what you want then talk to people to get a better idea if they fit. Also remember that people lie, do not just go on what they say but what impression you get.

For example yesterday my party wound up facing something that rarely appears there (usually when it appears the entire party is wiped out in seconds). I had seen it before so knew what to do to stay alive and what tricks it would pull, but I had to stay on my toes constantly. Afterwards my reaction in /party was how that particular monster is a real pain. Meanwhile many were ‘what was THAT’ (and most likely died, I did not have time to look during the encounter). Admittedly there were no requirements other than being at least a level in the upper 60s but things like what gear someone has, their level, AP, or their class is not an indicator of how well they will do when the chips are down.

I’m kind of unclear what AP has to do with fitness to complete a dungeon.

Gear linking I can see (I think it’s stupid, but I can see how statistically it could plausibly matter to speed runners and other such folk)

AP doesn’t really indicate anything. I can get tons of AP having done nothing but pressing 1 and f in the open world. I’d say at least 10k if I’d done every single daily every day since release.

I understand the mindset of a lot of these people is probably not the nicest, but how exactly is it elitist to not want to waste your time? Not everybody enjoys piddling around a dungeon for an hour because they got people in the party who don’t know what they’re doing. And trust me, I’ve jumped into AC with a totally random group of noobs, just for giggles, and even with good instruction, there are some things you just have to be prepared for when you show up, or you’re not going to succeed.

I’m not saying it’s fair to kick people for low AP if you don’t specify that in the party description, but I really think you all get way too worked up about it. It shouldn’t take more than a few minutes for you to find another party, or just start your own. Certainly less time than it takes to come on here and whine about it.

Vanthian.9267:

I usually find that the people asking for certain specifics in a group are the ones who need to be carried through it. I just laugh when they ask to ping gear and leave the group.

This game is so easy you are literally talking about either seconds or a minute of time on encounters. It is just stupid and petty. I have wasted more time in “pro” groups waiting on them to drag Mossman to the water than a standard non-conformed group just running it.

It is a game not a job, I intend on enjoying my time not trying to rush through everything so I can buy crap to stand around all day and show off in a virtual world.

No, a bad group where people don’t know what they’re doing and are wearing bad gear with bad builds isn’t the difference between seconds it is the difference between minutes, maybe even hours. The average run time for an Arah path 4 is like 4 hours. Experienced speed runners with proper gear and builds can do it in 40 minutes.

More importantly, exactly it isn’t a job. I am not being paid to do it. I don’t want to spend even an extra 10 minutes doing something I don’t have to. and no, running a dungeon with poorly geared, poorly built, inexperienced and usually willfully ignorant people who stop to kill even the lowest trash mobs and refuse to stay in buff range and knock everything around is the opposite of fun. It may be fun to them but it isn’t fun to me and I don’t want them in my party, ever. This is why fun is subjective and personal requirements are important.

dom.2748:

Aguri.2896:

I’ve had elitists compliment me on my 14k AP. I just think “lol”. And I’m an elitist myself. I’ve seen people with under 2k AP that do great and those with 21k that do nothing but use flamethrower on their engineer and take a snooze on the dungeon floor.

Back on topic, from an elitist to fellow elitists: listen to the OP it saves everyone trouble.

Like I said, it isn’t a perfect or even good system but it is the only thing we have because of anets stubbornness.

let me put this in a way you’ll understand, THEY DON’T WANT TO GIVE YOU A WAY TO BE AN kitten. The better than nothing way you have is complete crap. My AP is sub 3k know why? Because I don’t go around farming stupid things for a stupid little stat( I’ve been playing since the first BWE so it’s not a question of being bad). It’s honestly these type of people that make me question whether or not anet has succeeded in their goal to make a friendly community that has no access to tools that promote exclusion. My only hope is that the kitten stains that ruin the gw2 community fins more enjoyment in being a kitten to people in another game. And yea, i’m being hostile, nasty, and crass but I honestly don’t care. When this game first started I couldn’t wait to come across another person. It’s not the case anymore because more so than not these people are meta speed clear wannabies that stand in fire with their perfectly optimized gear and blame the 2k ap scrub for their death.

I check and value based on AP for LFG, i just try to be reasonable with it.

For example for dungeon runs only when i am kittened for past wipes and leaves or when i know it’ s going to need knowledge i ask for AP, and never ask more than 5k. While it might be true that many 5k AP do not know how to do that there is a high %, plus pretty much everyone can lie about knowing it or not.

asking more than 5k ap is pretty much sensless to me, because it means that you need a team able to handle a certain situation, but it does not mean at all that in these 10k AP you have experience in that.

Not sure if i have explained well enough… basically, for 5k AP you have a bit of experience and common knowledge on what to do and what is stuff, thus a good chance that they know what they quequed for. But for doing stuff that requires skill then you have to certify that skill, not ask for AP.

Zalavaaris you need to take a chill pill. The hypocrisy in your statement is extremely disturbing. It is okay for you to join somebodies dungeon run and completely ruin their day by being bad and fumbling around and not knowing what is going on and not wanting to improve ever. But the minute they want to play how they want then they are elitist. What a joke.

Thaddeus.4891:

Ardid.7203:

I really think people make too much noise just to justify their own control obsession.

I really want to know:
Why the gear of the other players is so important?
Is not more important the skill than the gear?
And is not more important the teamwork than the individual skill?

Finally:
If all this “perfect team” thing is so important, why to play with PuGs in the first place?

Personally, I never ask for gear check. All I ask in my lfg is level 80 experienced and If I kick, it’s because the guy searched for it.

But my question to you is why someone would have to justify his requirement? He can play the way he want, with who he want, with whatever requirement he want. How does it affect you? As long as he right them on the LFG, if you don’t like them don’t join.

If the guy like to wait and check every member, why shouldn’t be able to do so? How does his run affect your life?

I find most of those requirement useless and stupid, but it doesn’t matter because i’m not the one playing in his run. He is and he can play whatever the way he want.

Oh, of course this doesn’t affect me unless they try to impose their ideas on my PuG, wich is not often. I was just curious.

dom.2748:

Zalavaaris you need to take a chill pill. The hypocrisy in your statement is extremely disturbing. It is okay for you to join somebodies dungeon run and completely ruin their day by being bad and fumbling around and not knowing what is going on and not wanting to improve ever. But the minute they want to play how they want then they are elitist. What a joke.

But…. im not bad at this game… I have had a lot of experience with multiple aspects of this game and I know how to perform. My POINT is that if you just look at AP you dont know who is bad and fumbling. At LEAST do a trash pull and a boss pull and see what these people do. If they are as bad as you think they were from the get go then by all means, kick them out. I know I kick out bad players in my groups because they are wasting my time but I certainly give them a benefit of the doubt as to their skill level with low AP (as I also have low AP). What I cant stand is how stained this community has become from its original intention. But hey, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It was nice while it lasted anet.

Zalavaaris.5329:

dom.2748:

Zalavaaris you need to take a chill pill. The hypocrisy in your statement is extremely disturbing. It is okay for you to join somebodies dungeon run and completely ruin their day by being bad and fumbling around and not knowing what is going on and not wanting to improve ever. But the minute they want to play how they want then they are elitist. What a joke.

But…. im not bad at this game… I have had a lot of experience with multiple aspects of this game and I know how to perform. My POINT is that if you just look at AP you dont know who is bad and fumbling. At LEAST do a trash pull and a boss pull and see what these people do. If they are as bad as you think they were from the get go then by all means, kick them out. I know I kick out bad players in my groups because they are wasting my time but I certainly give them a benefit of the doubt as to their skill level with low AP (as I also have low AP). What I cant stand is how stained this community has become from its original intention. But hey, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It was nice while it lasted anet.

There really is nothing wrong with the community. Setting requirements is not bad. The only bad apples of this community are the ones who join peoples parties when they don’t fit their requirements and the ones who join parties and then try to force unadvertised requirements on them. Which is a very small minority of players.

dom.2748:

Zalavaaris.5329:

dom.2748:

Zalavaaris you need to take a chill pill. The hypocrisy in your statement is extremely disturbing. It is okay for you to join somebodies dungeon run and completely ruin their day by being bad and fumbling around and not knowing what is going on and not wanting to improve ever. But the minute they want to play how they want then they are elitist. What a joke.

But…. im not bad at this game… I have had a lot of experience with multiple aspects of this game and I know how to perform. My POINT is that if you just look at AP you dont know who is bad and fumbling. At LEAST do a trash pull and a boss pull and see what these people do. If they are as bad as you think they were from the get go then by all means, kick them out. I know I kick out bad players in my groups because they are wasting my time but I certainly give them a benefit of the doubt as to their skill level with low AP (as I also have low AP). What I cant stand is how stained this community has become from its original intention. But hey, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It was nice while it lasted anet.

There really is nothing wrong with the community. Setting requirements is not bad. The only bad apples of this community are the ones who join peoples parties when they don’t fit their requirements and the ones who join parties and then try to force unadvertised requirements on them. Which is a very small minority of players.

I agree that people disrepecting the LFG is a problem from both sides of the spectrum. And setting requirements for linking gear when advertised for it makes sense because it is in direct relation to how the dungeon will play out. AP means nothing and should be abandoned as a means for requirement.

The only thing AP tells you is that people who use it to judge anyone beyond 1k AP don’t know anything about what they’re talking about.

And even <1k AP is questionable thanks to all those $10 alt accounts.

If you’re using something like 10k AP, you should be kicked. You can judge someone’s ability by the first engagement even without pinging gear. If you aren’t willing to do that, can’t do that, or are too lazy to do that, then either 1.) Get more friends and stop pugging 2.) If you want to be an a elitist, do it right and stop wasting people’s time.

I never said AP was a good tool for judging player quality, I said that it was the best option currently available. There is a real difference. If you want AP requirements squashed then stop fighting people for wanting actual useful tools of requirement.

dom.2748:

I never said AP was a good tool for judging player quality, I said that it was the best option currently available. There is a real difference. If you want AP requirements squashed then stop fighting people for wanting actual useful tools of requirement.

No AP is not the best option. It isnt an option because there are too many variables to have that number mean ANYTHING. People check for gear and build as it is so why do both? And if you arent checking for gear and build why AP? Gear means much more than AP.