“Physics will do the rest.”
(edited by Chris Starflame.1023)
What is endgame?
Edit#2: Also in order to apply the definition of the word ‘endgame’ we also need to decide what the end of the game is.
Edit: Note the wording, I do not want a list of all the things or lack of things to do for gw2 endgame. I want a solid definition of what what endgame IS. Not what what it is in gw2.
(edited by Chris Starflame.1023)
Endgame is AFKing in LA with your shiny legendary, tier3 cultural armor, tier3 ascended backpiece, commander icon and GWAMM title.
That does not answer the question.
I asked “What is endgame?”
I did not ask “What is endgame in GW2?”
Endgame
The story end game is Arah story mode
The regular end game is anything you want it to be. I find myself logging in on my level 80 and thinking “what do I want to do today?” you can run dungeons for skins, you can run Fractals for fun and Ascended items, you can do full explore, you can WvW a lot, you can PvP a lot or you can aim for something impossible like a legendary
That does not answer the question.
I asked “What is endgame?”
I did not ask “What is endgame in GW2?”
You gotta ask the proper questions, son.
Endgame means the stuff to do after you’ve maxed out your character and finished your personal story. It’s the stuff that (is supposed to) keep people playing after they hit 80 and have max gear. In a lot of games endgame=geargrind
What I am trying to do here is find a middle ground or an actual answer to whether gw2 has endgame. But what really IS endgame? Where does it start? at 80? at full exotics? 100% map? at the end of the personal story? <- you could say this but then what about the destiny’s edge dungeon storyline that puzzles in? both? all of the above? none of these?
And AFTER that you have to actually look at the things in the game to consider whether they define as coming AFTER the end of the game(endgame) or before (game).
You can go into pvp at lvl 2. DOES that count as endgame? SHOULD it? Has someone who has gone straight into the heart of the mists who doesn’t care about PvE at ALL already reached endgame? Same goes for WvW.
(edited by Chris Starflame.1023)
Endgame to me and others i have played with over the years is this:
Max level on your toon and have done the quests up till that point. Endgame then varies from game to game because some have very little others have a lot. It could be running dungeons to equip yourselves better or in some games it could mean raids.
Getting to the max level is the start of endgame and from there you better equip your char and max crafting proffs things like that
Ok so let’s go with that, endgame is: The final stage of an extended process or course of events. Does that mean defeating Zhaitan? or the explorable mode? or cleansing Orr?
I don’t think that anything 100% qualifies as ‘endgame’ or not ‘endgame’. I think they are all features, or ‘things to do’.
So is gw2 lacking in ‘things to do’?
I’d argue that ‘endgame’ is whatever happens after you complete your major objective within a game. In a game as expansive as GW2, there are many points which a player may consider to be their major objective, whereas in a more linear, storyline-based game, the concept of the goal is generally more consistent amongst those who play.
If we’re defining the ‘endgame’ as the events that occur after the successful attainment of a goal, then many games simply do not have an endgame beyond a certain point as they’re finite. Some games also do not offer enough tangible milestones that appeal enough to players for them to consider them their major goal.
As an example of this, and based on the above definition, while a player of GW2 may consider gaining a complete set of Exotics to be their major goal in the game, their endgame would consist of any content they complete with that character following this point, such as gaining new skins, completing dungeons and finishing the storyline.
By this definition, ‘endgame’ is enormously subjective but generally holds elements that are consistent between players based on the relative popularity of certain goals.
That depends on what you like to do Chris Starflame.
So is gw2 lacking in ‘things to do’?
And no, it doesn’t lack things to do. As ever though, your mileage may vary.
Haha.
In conventional MMO’s it’s raids of course, what kinda question is this
I have my own opinions on this topic, but they are staying out of this.
So is gw2 lacking in ‘things to do’?
Only if you can be bothered i guess. Thing is its different for everyone some dont mind a grind out to get something they want where others want it handed to them on a platter. Wow is a classic example of just this, at the start it was very hard to do end game and to obtain special items or mounts. Years in and the whining crowed won out and basicaly ruined the game for everyone else by blizz cowing down to them and making things so easy it was pathetic.
End game in wow now is dungeons and gearing up but its not a real chore or very hard and that means the items you get mean nothing cause everyone has got the same.
Here there are plenty of things to do at end game but i guess the question you have to ask yourself is this: is it worth the effort to do these things?. Some will say yes some wil say no.
The problem is your question is unanswerable in a diffinative because its down to individual taste and nothing more. Are there things to do yes, do you want to? thats the question
“Here there are plenty of things to do at end game but i guess the question you have to ask yourself is this: is it worth the effort to do these things?. Some will say yes some wil say no.
The problem is your question is unanswerable in a diffinative because its down to individual taste and nothing more. Are there things to do yes, do you want to? thats the question."
I think that that is the best answer we can have.
Exclusive content that requires you to be max level and have at least close to the best gear equipped. GW2 doesn’t technically have content fitting this description(except maybe fractal level 10+), but the devs want to introduce content with higher agony resistance required in future updates. The first piece of content that will require fine infusions to even survive and experience it at all will be the first true piece of pve endgame content in gw2.
Some people (like me) hate fractals though. (Although I hate it because I get really low fps in there and I end up being useless.)
(edited by Chris Starflame.1023)
In most games it’s content for you to do once you have completed the story quests and got your character to max level, which are usually goals in any RPG.
After that you can do side quests (if you haven’t done them already), mini games, “hard mode” content, or seeking legendary items and slaying the strongest bosses, unlocking achievements and obtain things that mostly have a trophy status to acknowledge your investment into the game.
This is different in every game.
However, like Zorada said, it all boils down to the single question: Is it worth it? And, do you want to?
In single player games, this doesn’t matter so much. You will do the story, end it, and be ok with that. Some other people might choose to complete the game 100%.
In MMOs it’s a bit more complex because it is in everyone’s interest to have and keep people playing and keep the game alive. So in a way MMOs need “endgame”, or just activities you can do that are fun and rewarding after you hit the cap and solved personal quests, and have your character grow and “upgrade” in some way or another. We like shinies.
Endgame=Game Over. Insert coin.
Problem is that so far you’ve been told that endgame is raid for sake of gear progression. Carrot on a stick. What happends when you get all raid gear from that raid? New raid appears with new better gear, in form of expansion and only for 19.99$.
Does that has to be endgame?
Suddenly enters game that doesnt think you need to be treated as donkey chasing carrot and what happends? Whole army of donkeys rise and demand to be treated as donkeys!
Does it have to be about feeding egos, showing off your gear in towns and beeing elite? Dont we have enough of that in world we live in?
You can see on this forums what happends when game designers leave to players choice of doing whatever they feel like endgame to them.
Game industry has turned you into narrow-minded flock of sheeps, dont blame ANet for doing things different…their only mistake was thinking players had any creativity left in them.
Endgame=Game Over. Insert coin.
Problem is that so far you’ve been told that endgame is raid for sake of gear progression. Carrot on a stick. What happends when you get all raid gear from that raid? New raid appears with new better gear, in form of expansion and only for 19.99$.
Does that has to be endgame?Suddenly enters game that doesnt think you need to be treated as donkey chasing carrot and what happends? Whole army of donkeys rise and demand to be treated as donkeys!
Does it have to be about feeding egos, showing off your gear in towns and beeing elite? Dont we have enough of that in world we live in?
You can see on this forums what happends when game designers leave to players choice of doing whatever they feel like endgame to them.
Game industry has turned you into narrow-minded flock of sheeps, dont blame ANet for doing things different…their only mistake was thinking players had any creativity left in them.
The problem is that GW2 is a MMO, and “endgame” is needed for people to stick around and continue playing especially in guild wars 2 where a lot of things are made for large groups of people. The “carrot” doesn’t need to be in form of a gear. The carrot is something that keeps people playing GW2 and not other game.You make people sound like they are stupid just because they don’t fit into your system of values. Quite the contrary, i think people know exactly what they want, and they see what the game is. Some stay and play and others leave.
It is apparent that a lot of people are enjoying the game, but it is also obvious that a lot of people just leave because there just aren’t things to do, or better to say, there aren’t enough things to do that are worth while. I am sad to say that other games feel much more rewarding at endgame, so i choose to play them. However, i am keeping a close eye on GW2 and waiting for new content that i can experience.
Endgame is what you do after your character is maxed out. Most games just extend the levels or give out better gear that you want to obtain. Endgame for some people can be dungeons, but for most dungeons are a mean to an end. If we are truthful, then dungeons for “fun” or “to see that I can do level 20 fractals” is not keeping people. The endgame that keeps most people is the struggle between guilds and the race to be the strongest, that is why people spend their days in boring dungeons to grind this ring that give +3 more toughness (arms race). Unfortunately GvG and PvP competiveness has been made too anonymous and / or simply not implemented. Probably because it takes out the worst in people. The consequence though is that they took out an important endgame path.
Endgame is whatever you like it to be.
Endgame is playing the game in any way you regard as fun or interesting for the purpose of fun and interest alone.
Endgame tends to be a infinite reason to play the game. For some that’s progression, others its vanity and cosmetics… but for most its all to do with the fun factor.
What makes me wince more than anything is seeing this forum plagued by individuals who cant seem to have fun unless they are ePWNing something, or someone else. It shows the flaws within our modern western society and the reason we are all fatalist capitalists. The inherent competitive desire to not only be better than everyone else, but the ridiculous desire to show EVERYONE you can how much better you are. The biggest problem is that most MMOs only allow a few individuals that right, while GW2 allows most people to achieve that level (within PVE anyway). This creates a massive rift within the games population and exaggerates both sides opinion.
A little off topic but still adds to my point;
Gw2 has been described as a single player game aslongside many other players. This description isnt that wrong, but only due to the fact that the main mechanics within the game are actually incredibly fun… without the need for social mechanics to make up the difference.
Example;
Another MMO has crap mechanics but is fun because of the need of other people. Hence a boring combat system and ridiculous carrot on stick mentality being acceptable, because most people enduring the games endgame are enduring it with friends or a guild.
GW2 combat and most of its activities (DE´s and chains, leveling process, mini games, jumping puzzles, exploration ect ect) are very fun to play solo. The lack of need for guilds is really innovative and fun throughout the game, until unfortunately once you reach max level. In a traditional mindset, its extremely hard to enjoy a endgame without enjoying it with other people.
…. What makes me wince more than anything is seeing this forum plagued by individuals who cant seem to have fun unless they are ePWNing something, or someone else. It shows the flaws within our modern western society and the reason we are all fatalist capitalists. The inherent competitive desire to not only be better than everyone else, but the ridiculous desire to show EVERYONE you can how much better you are. The biggest problem is that most MMOs only allow a few individuals that right, while GW2 allows most people to achieve that level (within PVE anyway). This creates a massive rift within the games population and exaggerates both sides opinion…
Competition and fighting “your enemy” is the core of PvP and not at all something western as most of the most hard core PvP games are made in Asia, e.g., Korea. To show that you better has been in games ever since Pac Mans highscore overview.
GW2 did a very nice seperation of PVE and PVP, no more ganking and bullying. The discussion here is end game and if PvP is your endgame then I say the endgame in most games is the competition between people and guilds to be the highest scorer. The most kills, achieving a guild hall in GvG war to be proud of etc. etc. PvP activities that make your guild proud w/e.
(edited by beren.6048)
I wouldn’t say gw2 is lacking in things to do, there are tons of things to do, boring things that don’t give you any feeling of joy or fulfillment (a feeling of satisfaction at having achieved your desires).
Gw2 is a well sold lie.
Endgame=Game Over. Insert coin.
Problem is that so far you’ve been told that endgame is raid for sake of gear progression. Carrot on a stick. What happends when you get all raid gear from that raid? New raid appears with new better gear, in form of expansion and only for 19.99$.
Does that has to be endgame?Suddenly enters game that doesnt think you need to be treated as donkey chasing carrot and what happends? Whole army of donkeys rise and demand to be treated as donkeys!
Does it have to be about feeding egos, showing off your gear in towns and beeing elite? Dont we have enough of that in world we live in?
You can see on this forums what happends when game designers leave to players choice of doing whatever they feel like endgame to them.
Game industry has turned you into narrow-minded flock of sheeps, dont blame ANet for doing things different…their only mistake was thinking players had any creativity left in them.The problem is that GW2 is a MMO, and “endgame” is needed for people to stick around and continue playing especially in guild wars 2 where a lot of things are made for large groups of people. The “carrot” doesn’t need to be in form of a gear. The carrot is something that keeps people playing GW2 and not other game.You make people sound like they are stupid just because they don’t fit into your system of values. Quite the contrary, i think people know exactly what they want, and they see what the game is. Some stay and play and others leave.
It is apparent that a lot of people are enjoying the game, but it is also obvious that a lot of people just leave because there just aren’t things to do, or better to say, there aren’t enough things to do that are worth while. I am sad to say that other games feel much more rewarding at endgame, so i choose to play them. However, i am keeping a close eye on GW2 and waiting for new content that i can experience.
People want what industry trained them to want. This whole “endgame” mindset is product of industry desire to keep you on a leash and drain you juice (read money).
Other games feel more rewarding at endgame since they want you online and paying monthly. System of values of average gamer is broken beyond repair im afraid. Why? Because you learned to only have fun playing when you get reward. You killed that boss, good boy have a cookie!
MMO is supposed to be about people, massive multiplayer…nowdays you only want people when you NEED to brag about your shiney carrot! Or even worse to use them to get your shiney carrot because you cant do it alone, thats endgame for you…
p.s. First thing pedagogical books said about raising kids is dont teach them to only do thing for reward, later they wont do anything without promise of reward. Makes you think doesnt it…
(edited by kRiza krimos.1637)
Endgame=Game Over. Insert coin.
Problem is that so far you’ve been told that endgame is raid for sake of gear progression. Carrot on a stick. What happends when you get all raid gear from that raid? New raid appears with new better gear, in form of expansion and only for 19.99$.
Does that has to be endgame?Suddenly enters game that doesnt think you need to be treated as donkey chasing carrot and what happends? Whole army of donkeys rise and demand to be treated as donkeys!
Does it have to be about feeding egos, showing off your gear in towns and beeing elite? Dont we have enough of that in world we live in?
You can see on this forums what happends when game designers leave to players choice of doing whatever they feel like endgame to them.
Game industry has turned you into narrow-minded flock of sheeps, dont blame ANet for doing things different…their only mistake was thinking players had any creativity left in them.The problem is that GW2 is a MMO, and “endgame” is needed for people to stick around and continue playing especially in guild wars 2 where a lot of things are made for large groups of people. The “carrot” doesn’t need to be in form of a gear. The carrot is something that keeps people playing GW2 and not other game.You make people sound like they are stupid just because they don’t fit into your system of values. Quite the contrary, i think people know exactly what they want, and they see what the game is. Some stay and play and others leave.
It is apparent that a lot of people are enjoying the game, but it is also obvious that a lot of people just leave because there just aren’t things to do, or better to say, there aren’t enough things to do that are worth while. I am sad to say that other games feel much more rewarding at endgame, so i choose to play them. However, i am keeping a close eye on GW2 and waiting for new content that i can experience.
People want what industry trained them to want. This whole “endgame” mindset is product of industry desire to keep you on a leash and drain you juice (read money).
Other games feel more rewarding at endgame since they want you online and paying monthly. System of values of average gamer is broken beyond repair im afraid. Why? Because you learned to only have fun playing when you get reward. You killed that boss, good boy have a cookie!
MMO is supposed to be about people, massive multiplayer…nowdays you only want people when you NEED to brag about your shiney carrot! Or even worse to use them to get your shiney carrot because you cant do it alone, thats endgame for you…p.s. First thing pedagogical books said about raising kids is dont teach them to only do thing for reward, later they wont do anything without promise of reward. Makes you think doesnt it…
Ok your argument is confusing to say the least but i will try to adress a few things here.
You cannot expect people to log into a game and then just “use their imagination” to have fun. That is why we buy video games in the first place. There is no how the industry trains you. I can assure you that a lot of people have GW2 as their first MMO, and they don’t stick around because there is no need for it.
Also ArenaNet is also a part of the industry and instead of subs they need people to buy gems, and GW2 does exactly that once you hit that stage we call “endgame”. It makes them no different than any other Developer/Publisher out there. This is a business, not some charity where they let us play in harmony.
“Other games feel more rewarding at endgame since they want you online and paying monthly. " – This makes no sense. I feel rewarded because the company wants me to pay them?
You whole post is basically “You shouldn’t do things for rewards” with some jibber jabber in between.
So why would you spend 15 minutes killing a boss if you’re not going to get anything from it? Do it for the challenge? I can assure you that people do it for the challenge the first time. Other times, why even bother when there isn’t a reaction to that action. It doesn’t make you a better person if you are completely ok with no monster in the game dropping anything ever but you are doing it for the fun of it.
I am afraid that you clearly don’t understand why having content after level cap is important. I don’t really know how do you personally, play Guild Wars 2, but i can tell you that i don’t really believe that you would play a game which holds no rewards for a very long time.
@taomang
This. It’s ridiculous how many GW2 fans pull the “brainwashed/trained” card as an excuse for the lack of endgame.
“But, ArenaNet is a poor little underling hero on a quest to liberate us from evil Blizzard & Co. who have enslaved the population by tricking us into thinking their games are good. They’ve been feeding us lies, fun in their games is just an illusion created as a ploy to make us pay up! Have no fear, ArenaNet is here to show us what REAL fun is!!”
Ridiculous….
(edited by lacrimstein.5603)
I find that endgame starts the moment that your character has finished evolving by natural means. By this I mean once you hit the level cap. By this time you have all the skills that you want (and probably most of the ones you could ever want) and have just got your last trait point. There could be arguments made saying that this isn’t done until you have found your favorite build but that isn’t really a game element but more of a personal element.
Another thought is that the endgame begins when you begin to min/max everything to be the best. I never consider leveling up a min/max thing but instead as progression. I do, on the other hand, consider gear grinds as min/maxing.
This is just what I feel is endgame. And, btw, I have not read the majority of these posts so I apologize if this has already been flamed or some such lol.
Note: I think the concept of hating a carrot is imbecilic. Carrots are EVERYWHERE! If you hate gear grinds, say so, but don’t blame the carrot. You want to play because you have fun hanging out with your friends? Awesome! But that too, is a carrot. Why do you think they added chat functions and social options? Now, I realize this is just going to upset people who are closed minded, please realize that carrots are in real life too. Want a better job? That is a carrot. More money? Carrot. These are only different in that I have no control over what I need (real need, food, water and the like) nor do I have someone to complain to about them (excepting religions which is another can of worms). Hating the carrot seems awfully “hipster” to me. People play those games for a reason. Carrots are a great reason and to hate those just pins you as somebody who likes to go against the grain for just the sake of it.
The only difference between someone who likes a gear grind and somebody who is hating on the carrot is their preference of carrot.
(edited by DaedalusDragon.3754)
Life is a carrot!
I agree its all just business. And industry is trend setter. I never said Anet is coming on white horse to the rescue, but their aproach is far more honest than some other companies i heard of…
“Other games feel more rewarding at endgame since they want you online and paying monthly. " – This makes no sense. I feel rewarded because the company wants me to pay them? -read this again, what does company that wants your monthly chip needs to do to get it?
And please enlighten me, what part of endgame you cant experience without cash shop?
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