Guild Wars 2

Some of the best fun I’ve had in the game was trying to take the Lyssa temple in Malchor’s Leap for the skill point when there were only like 6 of us there

Or trying to take Arah with like 8 people

But now that Orr is overflowing with people it’s odd to not see everything taken, which isa huge bummer as a small group fighting to take and defend everything was a ton of fun

Birdy.4816:

The one major element is the dungeon crawl, the good, indepthful mechanics of later bosses, the bigger community guild raids ect.

All not present. and are typically the only things that stick for a long time.

This is another misconception. There are games out there that have been successful without the main focus being on dungeons. Look at Dark Age of Camelot for instance. That game was all about RvR (Realm vs Realm) warfare. The PvE in that game was very mindless, and it was only done so you could get to RvR. RvR was all about fighting the other realms, claiming their keeps/towers/relics. That game is still going today. Is it the largest game in the genre? No, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have staying power. It is still around 12(?) years later.

Serp.3264:

Birdy.4816:

Serp.3264:

Azzras.8041:

So you’re saying the only endgame for cap level players is PvP when a majority of the game is PvE?

That isn’t what I said at all. You are thinking about “endgame” wrong. For a cap level player, you can work on your crafting skills, you can explore the maps (hearts, points of interest, vistas, etc), you can do all of the dungeons, you can work on achievements, etc. If you have completed all of that, great, try another class out! You don’t need to be level 80 to complete a large majority of the content in this game. That is the beauty of it.

The whole concept of endgame being some big task that you repeat over and over again for gear is something that GW2 has been trying to get away from. You should be doing things in a progression.

No it hasn,t theyve said they want the whole game to be like end-game, only ironically it isn’t because the end-game is non-existant for PvE players (notice how i say PvE players, not crafters or achievement gatherers)

The one major element is the dungeon crawl, the good, indepthful mechanics of later bosses, the bigger community guild raids ect.

All not present. and are typically the only things that stick for a long time.

You honestly trying to tell use that doing little minor asthetic things is worth it compared to playing awesome dungeons that offer alot of fun, challenge AND REWARD in all shapes and sizes isn’t part of the “An MMO to appeal to everyone” philosophy?

Arenanet didn’t have time to do it, but they will, they MUST. it is stupid to create such a good game and leave this out. there is no rational reason not to, it is MUCH better than what is currently in place.

You can’t disregard huge aspects of the game like achievements, PvP, crafting, etc. If you focus purely on one aspect of this game, you will be disappointed no matter what you do. This game has a ton to offer, try going outside your comfort zone and trying PvP, achievement gathering, crafting, etc. This game doesn’t have to be just a rush to gain experience and gear (which I assume is what you consider “PvE” considering you don’t like achievements or crafting).

400 Jeweler, 354 Chef. 1k achievements, only rank 5 PvP but I realm v realm aswell, don’t put words in my mouth that I never said.

Point is most MMOs coming out now do all of these aspects and focus on dungeon crawling aswell, I don’t see how you can back them up for having such a mediocre PvE end-game when PvE to that point is a massive element and massive selling point.

“The MMO for everyone who loves and hates MMOs – but not you dungeon crawler/raiders…. despite being the biggest market of this genre…. will you be happy grinding 1500 tokens over 300 hours for 1 set of gear in the same isntance and only the first boss?”

THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

Lunch time! I’ll be back to discuss things in an hour

Serp.3264:

You can’t disregard huge aspects of the game like achievements, PvP, crafting, etc. If you focus purely on one aspect of this game, you will be disappointed no matter what you do. This game has a ton to offer, try going outside your comfort zone and trying PvP, achievement gathering, crafting, etc. This game doesn’t have to be just a rush to gain experience and gear (which I assume is what you consider “PvE” considering you don’t like achievements or crafting).

You can’t tell players what to enjoy. They like what they like, and whether you realize it or not, tons of players are into PvE raid progression. Arenanet can choose to offer that type of activity, or not, but if they choose not to offer it, they will lose the interest of some players.

That’s just reality. People play games to have fun, and if they aren’t having fun, they go elsewhere.

This is how WoW wins every time. Players get sucked back in because its the only game out there offering Dungeon/Raid progression that makes sense.

And tbh, I’m tired of WoW winning.

Serp.3264:

Birdy.4816:

The one major element is the dungeon crawl, the good, indepthful mechanics of later bosses, the bigger community guild raids ect.

All not present. and are typically the only things that stick for a long time.

This is another misconception. There are games out there that have been successful without the main focus being on dungeons. Look at Dark Age of Camelot for instance. That game was all about RvR (Realm vs Realm) warfare. The PvE in that game was very mindless, and it was only done so you could get to RvR. RvR was all about fighting the other realms, claiming their keeps/towers/relics. That game is still going today. Is it the largest game in the genre? No, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have staying power. It is still around 12(?) years later.

A dead game before MMO’s were much bigger? so what? DoAC succeeded to stay a float but it doesnt change the fact that games like Everquest and Final Fantasy 11 were still leagues more popular. (pre-WoW age)

You have no point. there is no reason this game should leave such a fundemental aspect out.

Serp.3264:

This is another misconception. There are games out there that have been successful without the main focus being on dungeons. Look at Dark Age of Camelot for instance. That game was all about RvR (Realm vs Realm) warfare. The PvE in that game was very mindless, and it was only done so you could get to RvR. RvR was all about fighting the other realms, claiming their keeps/towers/relics. That game is still going today. Is it the largest game in the genre? No, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have staying power. It is still around 12(?) years later.

You know what DAoC had that GW2 doesn’t? RvR progression.

What GW2 is missing is Endgame Progression.

WvW progression.
Raid progression.

That’s your endgame, folks. That’s what Arenanet needs to focus on in the future.

Realm ranks/trait/skill progression via WvW.
Dungeon Raid progression.

Without either of those, they have no endgame, except for the grind for legendaries. They do have that. But its not enough.

Birdy.4816:

The one major element is the dungeon crawl, the good, indepthful mechanics of later bosses, the bigger community guild raids ect.

I don’t know if you noticed, but even Blizzard acknowledged their highly specialized raids ruined their game for a majority of their player base, ergo they changed it to offer easier access to them; which partially solved the problem. I agree with Blizzard and agree with Arena Nets decision to forgo highly specialized raids (i.e., they require a large number of participants, the right gear, and hours on end, and reset progress made).

You honestly trying to tell use that doing little minor asthetic things is worth it compared to playing awesome dungeons that offer alot of fun, challenge AND REWARD in all shapes and sizes isn’t part of the “An MMO to appeal to everyone” philosophy?

The game may lack challenge, I’ll give you that, but I see no reason why rewards have to offer power or character progression if the content is indeed fun and challenging. Games are meant to be fun and challenging, they are not required to doll out goodies. Stat progression only creates a system of optimization that precludes entry to content. Everyone should be able to enjoy the fun and challenge without being excluded because they lack the right stats.

SirMoogie.9263:

Birdy.4816:

The one major element is the dungeon crawl, the good, indepthful mechanics of later bosses, the bigger community guild raids ect.

I don’t know if you noticed, but even Blizzard acknowledged their highly specialized raids ruined their game for a majority of their player base, ergo they changed it to offer easier access to them; which partially solved the problem. I agree with Blizzard and agree with Arena Nets decision to forgo highly specialized raids (i.e., they require a large number of participants, the right gear, and hours on end, and reset progress made).

You honestly trying to tell use that doing little minor asthetic things is worth it compared to playing awesome dungeons that offer alot of fun, challenge AND REWARD in all shapes and sizes isn’t part of the “An MMO to appeal to everyone” philosophy?

The game may lack challenge, I’ll give you that, but I see no reason why rewards have to offer power or character progression if the content is indeed fun and challenging. Games are meant to be fun and challenging, they are not required to doll out goodies. Stat progression only creates a system of optimization that precludes entry to content. Everyone should be able to enjoy the fun and challenge without being excluded because they lack the right stats.

1) No, unlike Arenanet, Blizzard has given their users a choice. LF Raid is for the casual encounter players to still progress their characters with a smaller challenge yet experience the content, and give rewards relative to that progression (Similar looking sets but weaker or uglier)

Then there is Normal mode for medium challenge for people who want the “normal difficulty as intended”

Then there is Heroic mode for those that want serious challenge with best reward.

NOW there is challenge mode which is even higher again with leaderboards and statistics which is a much better system than this game’s idea of “Playing for the challenge”

None of which require you to grind 1000s of tokens, none of which are flat and stale, none of which provide no reward over really really long intervals of time. none of which pretend that only challenge matters, YOU NEED A BALANCE OF BOTH.

Serious to god the apologist can’t understand that you need a healthy balance of challenge and reward in order to trigger fun, not just challenge for the sake of challenge in a genre CALLED ROLE-PLAYING where your character progresses in a variety of ways VIA REWARDS.

Azzras.8041:

Spryt.8012:

Azzras.8041:

Gear in GW2 is almost exactly like other MMOs. Better stats = better performance.
The main difference is that you have more freedom to choose what stats you want to stack.

Gear progression exists in GW2. There is a carrot on a stick when it comes to gear.

Difference with GW2 compared to other games is once you get to 80 and get exotic gear. Once you get that it just depends what kind of stats you want and everything else is just visual and not really more “powerful”. So carrot is mainly just to look cool rather then to make content easier.

Until they release new gear with better stats and visuals…

Where’d ya get that magic bubble, babby?

Birdy.4816:

Serious to god the apologist can’t understand that you need a healthy balance of challenge and reward in order to trigger fun, not just challenge for the sake of challenge in a genre CALLED ROLE-PLAYING where your character progresses in a variety of ways VIA REWARDS.

No I don’t understand, but it is not that I am an apologist as I criticize the game in other postings, even in this very thread and the post you quoted. Why does there need to be gear progression if the game is already fun and challenging? I would like to understand, but you cannot make me understand by fiat.

SirMoogie.9263:

Birdy.4816:

Serious to god the apologist can’t understand that you need a healthy balance of challenge and reward in order to trigger fun, not just challenge for the sake of challenge in a genre CALLED ROLE-PLAYING where your character progresses in a variety of ways VIA REWARDS.

No I don’t understand, but it is not that I am an apologist as I criticize the game in other postings, even in this very thread and the post you quoted. Why does there need to be gear progression if the game is already fun and challenging? I would like to understand, but you cannot make me understand by fiat.

Why does this MMO have to be an exception to a rule where reward = fun. why are elitest people that have beat explorable mode defending such crap just because they want to sit infront of their computer and grind 1500 tokens to get rewards when there are much better systems to use to cater to everyone INCLUDING THEM.

Birdy.4816:

SirMoogie.9263:

Birdy.4816:

Serious to god the apologist can’t understand that you need a healthy balance of challenge and reward in order to trigger fun, not just challenge for the sake of challenge in a genre CALLED ROLE-PLAYING where your character progresses in a variety of ways VIA REWARDS.

No I don’t understand, but it is not that I am an apologist as I criticize the game in other postings, even in this very thread and the post you quoted. Why does there need to be gear progression if the game is already fun and challenging? I would like to understand, but you cannot make me understand by fiat.

Why does this MMO have to be an exception to a rule where reward = fun. why are elitest people that have beat explorable mode defending such crap just because they want to sit infront of their computer and grind 1500 tokens to get rewards when there are much better systems to use to cater to everyone INCLUDING THEM.

A reward isn’t inherently fun. The experience should be fun. Games don’t have to be about just providing a reward. There are many RPGs out there in which there are encounters that don’t necessarily offer huge gains in gear. It is done for the fun of the ride.

I haven’t even hit Lv 80 yet, but from all the discussion I’ve heard, it seems as though:
- Post-80 basically has nothing new at all.
- People are finding pre-80 to lack any sense of progression past the Personal Story
- Difficulty is both cheese easy and unfairly hard, depending on context.

If you ask me, I think the game was originally tuned around BWE1 difficulty. Y’know, the one where everybody and their brother was dying horribly, repeatedly, to Lv1 mobs in the starting instance? I believe most comments were to tone down the 1-15 zones, slightly tone down the 15-25 zones and then leave the rest alone, because the difficulty floor was way too high for newcomers.

Problem is, Anet ended up nerfing the entire game in the process, causing EVERYTHING to be cheesy. This was especially apparent after BWE3 when despite the BWE2 difficulty drop, apparently Anet still saw fit to make it even easier. No, Dungeons aren’t easy, and Jumping Puzzles haven’t changed, but in effect Anet nerfed the difficulty of the ENTIRE LEVELING CURVE. So unfortunately, this creates a ton of issues:

- A diminished sense of accomplishment, because everything is “Press 1 to win”.
- DEs getting bricked, because they can’t fail if anybody is around to do them.
- An extreme difficulty jump from Open World to Dungeons.
- A disjointed difficulty difference between Story and Open World.

Naturally though, we never tested this during the betas. Why? Because the only zones that were available were 1-15, 15-25, and the Gendarran Fields. We had no way of knowing that everything post-30 (and technically post-20 in the personal story) was going to turn out this way. Even in the case of Dungeons, how many people managed to hit Lv 30 before the end of the weekend? And of those people, how many were already the experienced gamer type?

FarFarAway.6579:

Serp.3264:

This is another misconception. There are games out there that have been successful without the main focus being on dungeons. Look at Dark Age of Camelot for instance. That game was all about RvR (Realm vs Realm) warfare. The PvE in that game was very mindless, and it was only done so you could get to RvR. RvR was all about fighting the other realms, claiming their keeps/towers/relics. That game is still going today. Is it the largest game in the genre? No, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have staying power. It is still around 12(?) years later.

You know what DAoC had that GW2 doesn’t? RvR progression.

What GW2 is missing is Endgame Progression.

WvW progression.
Raid progression.

That’s your endgame, folks. That’s what Arenanet needs to focus on in the future.

Realm ranks/trait/skill progression via WvW.
Dungeon Raid progression.

Without either of those, they have no endgame, except for the grind for legendaries. They do have that. But its not enough.

This game does have progression, it just doesn’t make your character stronger. There are ranks in sPvP and in WvW you gain achievements for the feats you accomplish, as well as achievements for the PvE you accomplish (plus you can gain vanity items to customize your characters look and feel). It shouldn’t be a requirement to make your character more powerful just to feel like there is progression.

I would also like to point out that DAoC’s realm rank system was not available when the game first launched. Adding those abilities happened after the release. Let us not jump to conclusions that it will never be added.

Birdy.4816:

1) No, unlike Arenanet, Blizzard has given their users a choice. LF Raid is for the casual encounter players to still progress their characters with a smaller challenge yet experience the content, and give rewards relative to that progression (Similar looking sets but weaker or uglier)

Then there is Normal mode for medium challenge for people who want the “normal difficulty as intended”

Then there is Heroic mode for those that want serious challenge with best reward.

NOW there is challenge mode which is even higher again with leaderboards and statistics which is a much better system than this game’s idea of “Playing for the challenge”

None of which require you to grind 1000s of tokens, none of which are flat and stale, none of which provide no reward over really really long intervals of time. none of which pretend that only challenge matters, YOU NEED A BALANCE OF BOTH.

Serious to god the apologist can’t understand that you need a healthy balance of challenge and reward in order to trigger fun, not just challenge for the sake of challenge in a genre CALLED ROLE-PLAYING where your character progresses in a variety of ways VIA REWARDS.

Honestly, your main problem is you are looking for World of Warcraft in Guild Wars 2. WoW already exists. You can go play it if you would like, but this game is not WoW. Move away from comparing this game to WoW and you may see it in a different light.

Birdy.4816:

A dead game before MMO’s were much bigger? so what? DoAC succeeded to stay a float but it doesnt change the fact that games like Everquest and Final Fantasy 11 were still leagues more popular. (pre-WoW age)

You have no point. there is no reason this game should leave such a fundemental aspect out.

You’re ignorance is astounding. As I have said before, simply have a larger subscription base doesn’t make the game better.

Also, don’t bash DAoC. It was game changing for what it provided. The intention of that game was to never be a large PvE game. It succeeded with its intended audience.

Birdy.4816:

Why does this MMO have to be an exception to a rule where reward = fun.

Because stat gains aren’t fun or challenging intrinsically.* They are incentives to perform other tasks, that give the illusion that those tasks are satisfying, when they may not be. Surely you’ve played games that were rewarding in and of themselves, and not because you were performing some linear stat progression task? For example, I had fun playing Starcraft single player, but it wasn’t because I was able to boost my units (I couldn’t as there was no linear stat progression), but rather because it spun a tale I wanted to play through and see. The story was its own reward.

From my perspective I think rewards should be perks, but not the driving factor for participation. They should also not drive a wedge between players of an MMO, a game that should be focused on community building not breaking. Linear stat progression tends to do this as it creates an environment where players that don’t meet the statistical ideal are seen a hindrance to your own gameplay. Guild Wars 2 has taken many steps for creating a shared world and not one that drives wedges, it still has its flaws, mostly that it doesn’t drive communication and community building, so much as it does playing along side each other cooperatively. A step forward for sure, but more could be done.

* - I don’t think this needs demonstration, but try this thought experiment. Imagine a game that just every ten minutes gave you higher stats. No action you performed caused this, it just happened. Is this fun or challenging?

why are elitest people that have beat explorable mode defending such crap just because they want to sit infront of their computer and grind 1500 tokens to get rewards when there are much better systems to use to cater to everyone INCLUDING THEM.

I’m not sure what relevance this question has to what I said.

Edit: Highly relevant article on the topic: http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/BadSpock/032011/21585_Linear-Statistical-Progression-An-affliction-that-has-ruined-MMOs-from-the-getgo

The best DE fights are, imo, those giants that stomp and oneshot anyone that doesn’t dodge. There really needs to be more bosses that “thin the herd” in that manner, and the rest were very disappoint in this regard.

I agree with nukularpower. My favorite boss fight by far was Kol. It started of as a “zerg”, but it became clear to everyone that this approach didn’t work. Our group of 30+ people split up into smaller groups, switching in and out of combat, leading Kol away from groups that needed to patch up, ressing other players, and so on. I personally swapped some skills in my DPS bleed warrior to banners to help out everyone else. The boss was big enough to see him telegraph his stomp moves, so dodging wasn’t guesswork for once and melee combat became a thrill. Sadly, no other boss I have fought so far was this challenging or fun =/

Birdy.4816:

SirMoogie.9263:

Birdy.4816:

The one major element is the dungeon crawl, the good, indepthful mechanics of later bosses, the bigger community guild raids ect.

I don’t know if you noticed, but even Blizzard acknowledged their highly specialized raids ruined their game for a majority of their player base, ergo they changed it to offer easier access to them; which partially solved the problem. I agree with Blizzard and agree with Arena Nets decision to forgo highly specialized raids (i.e., they require a large number of participants, the right gear, and hours on end, and reset progress made).

You honestly trying to tell use that doing little minor asthetic things is worth it compared to playing awesome dungeons that offer alot of fun, challenge AND REWARD in all shapes and sizes isn’t part of the “An MMO to appeal to everyone” philosophy?

The game may lack challenge, I’ll give you that, but I see no reason why rewards have to offer power or character progression if the content is indeed fun and challenging. Games are meant to be fun and challenging, they are not required to doll out goodies. Stat progression only creates a system of optimization that precludes entry to content. Everyone should be able to enjoy the fun and challenge without being excluded because they lack the right stats.

1) No, unlike Arenanet, Blizzard has given their users a choice. LF Raid is for the casual encounter players to still progress their characters with a smaller challenge yet experience the content, and give rewards relative to that progression (Similar looking sets but weaker or uglier)

Then there is Normal mode for medium challenge for people who want the “normal difficulty as intended”

Then there is Heroic mode for those that want serious challenge with best reward.

NOW there is challenge mode which is even higher again with leaderboards and statistics which is a much better system than this game’s idea of “Playing for the challenge”

None of which require you to grind 1000s of tokens, none of which are flat and stale, none of which provide no reward over really really long intervals of time. none of which pretend that only challenge matters, YOU NEED A BALANCE OF BOTH.

Serious to god the apologist can’t understand that you need a healthy balance of challenge and reward in order to trigger fun, not just challenge for the sake of challenge in a genre CALLED ROLE-PLAYING where your character progresses in a variety of ways VIA REWARDS.

Please if your going to use examples at least use them correctly. LFR>Normal>Heroic is for raids there is no such thing as challenge mode raids.

Now for dungeons it goes Heroic(lvl 90 version)> Challenge(does not provide gear with stats just for looks and prestige ).

TransparentlyOpaque.1824:

Birdy.4816:

Serp.3264:

Birdy.4816:

PvE is VITAL to an MMO’s success even this one.

If Arena-net have plans, instead of making stupid articles telling us what “MINOR” content we can do once we hit 80 that we mostly have already done, why don’t they come out and say:

“Hey, we hear you PvE lovers, our PvE Team is slaving hard away to rebalance loot tables, make more engaging encounters, make HEAVY adjustments to the token grind and we aim to eventually release 10-15 man content as we know alot of people really love this instead of 5 mans for eternity when even Guild Wars 1 had 8.”

“We have spent the last few years creating a great journey and PvP system, now that it is done, we wish to make an end-game PvE experiance that rivals the best such as world of warcraft”

That would please ALOT of people.

I disagree that PvE is vital to an MMO being successful. I assume this is because we have differing opinions on what is considered successful. For an MMO to be successful, it does not need to be the largest MMO in history. It doesn’t need to have the most active subscriptions. All it really needs to do is have a dedicated playerbase that enjoys the game.

You… are… embracing mediocrity, it is making me sick tbh. evem with this game’s pvp content WoW still has more of it in each expansion.

Do you see the point? if WoW can do all elements why shouldn’t this game? what benefit do arenanet or WE have by discluding the most popular mechanic of MMOs?

Honestly, yes you have an opinion, but…. recognize where a company is short falling and why people are frustrated GRINDING TOKENS IN CRAP DUNGEONS SUCKS.

No one is forcing you to play, if GW2 is not your cup of tea, you can go pay to play WOW- and not have to worry about paying for GW2. Whats the tissue-issue?

God how I hate this kind of comment, all it does is show your ignorance.

Everything people are saying here is fact, go look at the statistics if you think it is merely opinion based. You can’t tell people what to enjoy like someone else said, and if you truly cared about the franchise I would think you would want it to be successful, even if being successful meant adding end game raiding or gear progression or any kind of progression at all.

What gamers want / look forward to in a mmo has changed so much since the first GW it’s naive to think that the current endgame and progression or lack there of, is going to hold anyone’s attention long except maybe the hardcore fan boys of the first installment. I do not understand why you all seem to hate the idea of end game progression so much, in fact using your logic…maybe that style of gameplay isn’t for you but hey no one is forcing to to do that stuff if they they implement it.

This game will have to adapt to have any sort of success or you fanboys will be playing on empty servers for years to come.

Dedish.7923:

TransparentlyOpaque.1824:

No one is forcing you to play, if GW2 is not your cup of tea, you can go pay to play WOW- and not have to worry about paying for GW2. Whats the tissue-issue?

God how I hate this kind of comment, all it does is show your ignorance.

Everything people are saying here is fact, go look at the statistics if you think it is merely opinion based. You can’t tell people what to enjoy like someone else said, and if you truly cared about the franchise I would think you would want it to be successful, even if being successful meant adding end game raiding or gear progression or any kind of progression at all.

What gamers want / look forward to in a mmo has changed so much since the first GW it’s naive to think that the current endgame and progression or lack there of, is going to hold anyone’s attention long except maybe the hardcore fan boys of the first installment. I do not understand why you all seem to hate the idea of end game progression so much, in fact using your logic…maybe that style of gameplay isn’t for you but hey no one is forcing to to do that stuff if they they implement it.

This game will have to adapt to have any sort of success or you fanboys will be playing on empty servers for years to come.

You talk about ignorance, yet your own ignorance is astounding. You assume the customers of Arenanet care about how “successful” (which is a terrible description for it, you really should say “populated”) the game is going to be. You playing this game has no effect on my experience in the game. Success of a game is not judged by how many people play it (especially a free to play game).

What the above poster said is absolutely, 100% correct. If you want a game like WoW, go play WoW. There was nothing cynical or wrong about that post. Stop trying to change the game to be something it is not. Stop trying to make GW2 the same as WoW. The people who want WoW are already playing WoW. There is a reason these other people are here and its not because they want the same thing that has existed for years.

Dedish.7923:

TransparentlyOpaque.1824:

Birdy.4816:

Serp.3264:

Birdy.4816:

PvE is VITAL to an MMO’s success even this one.

If Arena-net have plans, instead of making stupid articles telling us what “MINOR” content we can do once we hit 80 that we mostly have already done, why don’t they come out and say:

“Hey, we hear you PvE lovers, our PvE Team is slaving hard away to rebalance loot tables, make more engaging encounters, make HEAVY adjustments to the token grind and we aim to eventually release 10-15 man content as we know alot of people really love this instead of 5 mans for eternity when even Guild Wars 1 had 8.”

“We have spent the last few years creating a great journey and PvP system, now that it is done, we wish to make an end-game PvE experiance that rivals the best such as world of warcraft”

That would please ALOT of people.

I disagree that PvE is vital to an MMO being successful. I assume this is because we have differing opinions on what is considered successful. For an MMO to be successful, it does not need to be the largest MMO in history. It doesn’t need to have the most active subscriptions. All it really needs to do is have a dedicated playerbase that enjoys the game.

You… are… embracing mediocrity, it is making me sick tbh. evem with this game’s pvp content WoW still has more of it in each expansion.

Do you see the point? if WoW can do all elements why shouldn’t this game? what benefit do arenanet or WE have by discluding the most popular mechanic of MMOs?

Honestly, yes you have an opinion, but…. recognize where a company is short falling and why people are frustrated GRINDING TOKENS IN CRAP DUNGEONS SUCKS.

No one is forcing you to play, if GW2 is not your cup of tea, you can go pay to play WOW- and not have to worry about paying for GW2. Whats the tissue-issue?

God how I hate this kind of comment, all it does is show your ignorance.

Everything people are saying here is fact, go look at the statistics if you think it is merely opinion based. You can’t tell people what to enjoy like someone else said, and if you truly cared about the franchise I would think you would want it to be successful, even if being successful meant adding end game raiding or gear progression or any kind of progression at all.

What gamers want / look forward to in a mmo has changed so much since the first GW it’s naive to think that the current endgame and progression or lack there of, is going to hold anyone’s attention long except maybe the hardcore fan boys of the first installment. I do not understand why you all seem to hate the idea of end game progression so much, in fact using your logic…maybe that style of gameplay isn’t for you but hey no one is forcing to to do that stuff if they they implement it.

This game will have to adapt to have any sort of success or you fanboys will be playing on empty servers for years to come.

I and others tried to address your concerns and interests multiple times, but you insist on being negative. What else do you want a person to say?

Im not a “fanboy” of the original series(never played it), or mmos at all, but I do enjoy this game, and can see it being enjoyable for an extended period of time. I think that 2 million copies sold already equate to it being a success.

You have to consider that there is no mandatory payment every month to play the game. It is a free game that goes by a different set of rules and methods of generating income. It will have different gameplay because of the income methods. Maybe you want PVP with gear progression, where you buy the next piece of stat armor in the cash shop?

If you formulated a constructive arguement for why the game should have elements of other games, and some ideas of how it should work in game, im sure someone would listen.

Serp.3264:

You assume the customers of Arenanet care about how “successful” (which is a terrible description for it, you really should say “populated”) the game is going to be. You playing this game has no effect on my experience in the game. Success of a game is not judged by how many people play it (especially a free to play game).

While I agree with many of your points, I disagree here. I do hope Guild Wars 2 has a thriving community of players that collectively participate in challenging and fun world encounters together. I also hope it thrives not through gimmicky linear stat progression, but through the addition of fun and challenging encounters. I think buy to play is the perfect model for this type of MMO as players can join and leave as they consume content at their own pace. It also incentivizes developers into adding new fun and challenging content, and not adding content that can only be cleared once the right gear plateau is reached.

Serp.3264:

Dedish.7923:

TransparentlyOpaque.1824:

No one is forcing you to play, if GW2 is not your cup of tea, you can go pay to play WOW- and not have to worry about paying for GW2. Whats the tissue-issue?

God how I hate this kind of comment, all it does is show your ignorance.

Everything people are saying here is fact, go look at the statistics if you think it is merely opinion based. You can’t tell people what to enjoy like someone else said, and if you truly cared about the franchise I would think you would want it to be successful, even if being successful meant adding end game raiding or gear progression or any kind of progression at all.

What gamers want / look forward to in a mmo has changed so much since the first GW it’s naive to think that the current endgame and progression or lack there of, is going to hold anyone’s attention long except maybe the hardcore fan boys of the first installment. I do not understand why you all seem to hate the idea of end game progression so much, in fact using your logic…maybe that style of gameplay isn’t for you but hey no one is forcing to to do that stuff if they they implement it.

This game will have to adapt to have any sort of success or you fanboys will be playing on empty servers for years to come.

You talk about ignorance, yet your own ignorance is astounding. You assume the customers of Arenanet care about how “successful” (which is a terrible description for it, you really should say “populated”) the game is going to be. You playing this game has no effect on my experience in the game. Success of a game is not judged by how many people play it (especially a free to play game).

What the above poster said is absolutely, 100% correct. If you want a game like WoW, go play WoW. There was nothing cynical or wrong about that post. Stop trying to change the game to be something it is not. Stop trying to make GW2 the same as WoW. The people who want WoW are already playing WoW. There is a reason these other people are here and its not because they want the same thing that has existed for years.

Right because arenanet doesn’t care about the game success, it’s not like they want to make money or anything. How self centered do you have to be to talk about to talk about whether or not someone playing the game effects you or not ( and it really does effect you if you think about it. No players means no one to run content with or a crap economy or even no new content, because if no one is still playing there is not much point in adding to the game ) If you read any of my previous post on this subject in this thread you’ll see that I enjoy the game so far. I am not personally trying to change anything just stating the obvious, and agreeing with the vast majority of the people commenting on this post.

But alas there is no arguing with a fanboy, people will see and read only what they want to read.

As a after thought clearly this statement (“The people who want WoW are already playing WoW. There is a reason these other people are here and its not because they want the same thing that has existed for years” ) is false considering that the majority of posters on this topic seem to feel otherwise and what you and others of like mindedness seem to be the minority.

vidiotking.1928:

No one responded, so I’ll suggest it again. Can’t they just make multiple versions of the same ‘zone’. Then there will never be too many people for a DE. Will make DE’s more difficult due to less folks.

No DE’s scale for the people there and instancing zones is just a terrible SWTOR mechanic that failed miserably.

TransparentlyOpaque.1824:

Dedish.7923:

TransparentlyOpaque.1824:

Birdy.4816:

Serp.3264:

Birdy.4816:

PvE is VITAL to an MMO’s success even this one.

If Arena-net have plans, instead of making stupid articles telling us what “MINOR” content we can do once we hit 80 that we mostly have already done, why don’t they come out and say:

“Hey, we hear you PvE lovers, our PvE Team is slaving hard away to rebalance loot tables, make more engaging encounters, make HEAVY adjustments to the token grind and we aim to eventually release 10-15 man content as we know alot of people really love this instead of 5 mans for eternity when even Guild Wars 1 had 8.”

“We have spent the last few years creating a great journey and PvP system, now that it is done, we wish to make an end-game PvE experiance that rivals the best such as world of warcraft”

That would please ALOT of people.

I disagree that PvE is vital to an MMO being successful. I assume this is because we have differing opinions on what is considered successful. For an MMO to be successful, it does not need to be the largest MMO in history. It doesn’t need to have the most active subscriptions. All it really needs to do is have a dedicated playerbase that enjoys the game.

You… are… embracing mediocrity, it is making me sick tbh. evem with this game’s pvp content WoW still has more of it in each expansion.

Do you see the point? if WoW can do all elements why shouldn’t this game? what benefit do arenanet or WE have by discluding the most popular mechanic of MMOs?

Honestly, yes you have an opinion, but…. recognize where a company is short falling and why people are frustrated GRINDING TOKENS IN CRAP DUNGEONS SUCKS.

No one is forcing you to play, if GW2 is not your cup of tea, you can go pay to play WOW- and not have to worry about paying for GW2. Whats the tissue-issue?

God how I hate this kind of comment, all it does is show your ignorance.

Everything people are saying here is fact, go look at the statistics if you think it is merely opinion based. You can’t tell people what to enjoy like someone else said, and if you truly cared about the franchise I would think you would want it to be successful, even if being successful meant adding end game raiding or gear progression or any kind of progression at all.

What gamers want / look forward to in a mmo has changed so much since the first GW it’s naive to think that the current endgame and progression or lack there of, is going to hold anyone’s attention long except maybe the hardcore fan boys of the first installment. I do not understand why you all seem to hate the idea of end game progression so much, in fact using your logic…maybe that style of gameplay isn’t for you but hey no one is forcing to to do that stuff if they they implement it.

This game will have to adapt to have any sort of success or you fanboys will be playing on empty servers for years to come.

I and others tried to address your concerns and interests multiple times, but you insist on being negative. What else do you want a person to say?

Im not a “fanboy” of the original series(never played it), or mmos at all, but I do enjoy this game, and can see it being enjoyable for an extended period of time. I think that 2 million copies sold already equate to it being a success.

You have to consider that there is no mandatory payment every month to play the game. It is a free game that goes by a different set of rules and methods of generating income. It will have different gameplay because of the income methods. Maybe you want PVP with gear progression, where you buy the next piece of stat armor in the cash shop?

If you formulated a constructive arguement for why the game should have elements of other games, and some ideas of how it should work in game, im sure someone would listen.

I have formulated a argument so have many others, it’s on you to see someone else’s point of view. In no way have I been negative in any meaning of the word I am simply voicing my opinion. Like it or not I care little.

If I did not like the game I wold state that, I’m pretty sure I have stated numerous times that I do enjoy the game thus far. As far as coming up with ideas…. it’s not my job to come up with ideas, I’m not getting paid to do so, people are voicing a concern and it is Anets job to find a solution or not as they see fit.

Serp.3264:

This game does have progression, it just doesn’t make your character stronger. There are ranks in sPvP and in WvW you gain achievements for the feats you accomplish, as well as achievements for the PvE you accomplish (plus you can gain vanity items to customize your characters look and feel). It shouldn’t be a requirement to make your character more powerful just to feel like there is progression.

I would also like to point out that DAoC’s realm rank system was not available when the game first launched. Adding those abilities happened after the release. Let us not jump to conclusions that it will never be added.

-I disagree. You can’t really call it progression if its meaningless to your character. The whole point of an MMO is becoming a more powerful Hero. That’s what the leveling process is all about, and the crafting process. Try to define progression without “progress”.

-On your second point, I totally agree that Arenanet could add features to the game post-release that allow for WvW and PvE progression, as other games have done, and I am hoping that they do because I would like to play it for a long time.

Unfortunately, once the elite players (including many guild leaders) burn out, the casuals tend to follow. So the game needs to cater to both groups. Once my guildies quit on me, I’m not likely to keep playing.

NyghtProwler.9386:

vidiotking.1928:

No one responded, so I’ll suggest it again. Can’t they just make multiple versions of the same ‘zone’. Then there will never be too many people for a DE. Will make DE’s more difficult due to less folks.

No DE’s scale for the people there and instancing zones is just a terrible SWTOR mechanic that failed miserably.

That is very true, separating players is an old school way of adjusting difficultly level. And people are tired of the old methods. That is why it is amusing that people come to play GW2 and then say hey I came here to play a different progressive style game, but would you make it like old school “game x”?

Sure, some DEs need tweaking for higher difficulty with more players involved- im sure that will be addressed.