Endgame: The real concept, of. (opinion)

Endgame: The real concept, of. (opinion)

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Posted by: GustavoM.7605

GustavoM.7605

“Endgame” Is not a concept being renewed by a some sort of “magic automated script” that gives you something “new” to do everyday. Nor the opposite: “Grind for power”, or for “looks”.

This may seem weird, but as the same way “fun” Is subjective… “endgame” Is -also- subjective. It Is, simply, what you enjoy the most In a online game. That certain feature which even If you repeat, you will never get bored.

Sure, devs can work In ways to renew and/or improve a certain concept that attracts your graps more than other concepts. But that will not do any good If a dev comes at you and says "Hey, what do you think about improving PvE? Let’s add a “family” feature, where NPC’s can create families randomly and populate towns, where their sons, grandsons can also constitute families!" as your “focus” Is on PvP.

If you have read this far, thanks for your time and understanding. Or else, If you have simply ignored most of this… thanks for your time also. I just wanted to “vent” this out of my throat, to show that Devs can’t “create” endgame: -YOU- are the one responsible to create your -OWN- endgame.

Thank you.

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Posted by: Red Falcon.8257

Red Falcon.8257

At this point I believe the majority understands this.
After two months it was about time.

This phenomenon of people requesting “endgame” grinds was kind of sad tho, goes to prove how much traditional MMO ruined their gamers.

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Posted by: TrickSmartly.7391

TrickSmartly.7391

Why call it endgame? Why not call it something else? Apparently, since endgame is anything than it be called anything too. Let’s just rename it to bologna sandwich and say that it can mean anything, at any time and any place. On the bus? That’s bologna sandwich. Doing the dishes? Bologna sandwich. This post is bologna sandwich. My cat is a bologna sandwich.

Why use other words? It’s all bologna sandwich.

bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich

Endgame: The real concept, of. (opinion)

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Posted by: TrickSmartly.7391

TrickSmartly.7391

My previous post was a little, teensy bit too abstract for most of you so allow me to explicate my feelings on the op’s post.

It’s dung. Endgame is not some whimsical abstraction that you make on your own. Endgame is not a make your own adventure novel nor is it a bologna sandwich.

Maybe no one defined it for you before so I will. Endgame is progression of your character at or near max level. It’s not subjective. It’s concrete. Anything not adhering to the parameters outlined is not endgame. Leveling is not endgame. Playing dress up is not endgame. Sitting on the bus is not endgame. And gw2 has a lack of endgame.

(edited by TrickSmartly.7391)

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Posted by: Knote.2904

Knote.2904

To me, coming from nearly ever MMO out there starting with EQ/DAoC.

Endgame to me just means the higher level you get the more difficult/challenging the game gets, and the more epic the game gets. You start out in rags, killing pigs, finally get all the way to max level with your new shiny gear/weapons and go and take on a dragon.

Having something to do constantly in game isn’t necessarily endgame IMO. But having alot of things available for you to do or keep you interested are great and a huge part of why I love MMO’s.

But yeah, it’s just technicalities. It just so happens that leveling your character tapers off but increasing gear levels don’t in some MMO’s.

(edited by Knote.2904)

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Posted by: coglin.1496

coglin.1496

It’s dung. Endgame is not some whimsical abstraction that you make on your own. Endgame is not a make your own adventure novel nor is it a bologna sandwich.

This what endgame is to you, it is not what the definition of end game is. Endgame by definition does not require progression what so ever.

You appear to have taken what alot of MMOs do at endgame and confused that with the facts of what it actually is.

Endgame is what content is there that you can do aat or near max level that you cannot do otherwise.

Every game develops its own concept for how they want it to play and work. If you are unhappy with the games concept and its idea of content and game play. Perhaps it is more intelligent to play a game more akin to your need, over trying to kill the developers with complaints. it is not logical to drop the their concept just to cater to your specific wants.

Poor craftsman blame their tools. Poor players blame their Engineer.

(edited by coglin.1496)

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Posted by: Barguer.2516

Barguer.2516

My previous post was a little, teensy bit too abstract for most of you so allow me to explicate my feelings on the op’s post.

It’s dung. Endgame is not some whimsical abstraction that you make on your own. Endgame is not a make your own adventure novel nor is it a bologna sandwich.

Maybe no one defined it for you before so I will. Endgame is progression of your character at or near max level. It’s not subjective. It’s concrete. Anything not adhering to the parameters outlined is not endgame. Leveling is not endgame. Playing dress up is not endgame. Sitting on the bus is not endgame. And gw2 has a lack of endgame.

So what’s end game for you if you’re so smart?

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Posted by: TrickSmartly.7391

TrickSmartly.7391

To me the sun is a collection of gas which has burned for billions of years but to you it could be god’s fart. They’re both equally correct and true in our little girl paradise of subjective opinions. So I just want to say to all the fartists that I understand your beliefs and see no reason why the sun isn’t a giant fart AND a gas sphere. ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

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Posted by: TrickSmartly.7391

TrickSmartly.7391

It’s dung. Endgame is not some whimsical abstraction that you make on your own. Endgame is not a make your own adventure novel nor is it a bologna sandwich.

This what endgame is to you, it is not what the definition of end game is. Endgame by definition does not require progression what so ever.

You appear to have taken what alot of MMOs do at endgame and confused that with the facts of what it actually is.

Endgame is what content is there that you can do aat or near max level that you cannot do otherwise.

No, it’s not. It is what endgame is. I just defined it, established parameters for it’s meaning to adhere to. Everything is either endgame or not endgame based on those parameters.

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Posted by: Sleaze.3748

Sleaze.3748

My previous post was a little, teensy bit too abstract for most of you so allow me to explicate my feelings on the op’s post.

It’s dung. Endgame is not some whimsical abstraction that you make on your own. Endgame is not a make your own adventure novel nor is it a bologna sandwich.

Maybe no one defined it for you before so I will. Endgame is progression of your character at or near max level. It’s not subjective. It’s concrete. Anything not adhering to the parameters outlined is not endgame. Leveling is not endgame. Playing dress up is not endgame. Sitting on the bus is not endgame. And gw2 has a lack of endgame.

I just had to reply to this cause I found it so hilarious and extremely true. Unfortunately there seem to be a lot of players out there who wish all level 80 characters to act and look exactly alike, just an army of clones, cause no one should have anything better than anyone else in their book. I have suggested non combat bonuses to gear but everyone immediately jumps to thinking there will be an “I win button” and are blind to anything else.

@coglin If you do not believe in character progression and level 80 then whats the point of leveling at all? Why don’t we all just get the same gears and skills when we start the game like in sPvP?

(edited by Sleaze.3748)

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Posted by: BioMasterZap.4350

BioMasterZap.4350

Yah, I see some truth in this. Personally I like going after goals, even if they aren’t fun XD So GW2 will probably always keep me playing because there is always going to be an achievement or legendary to go for, a character to level (I got all 8 professions created), and a dungeon to play.
I did notice some dips in my interest though. First came at level 80. Before I hit 80 I was working on map completion, but once EXP no longer mattered I was like “eh”. So I focused more on Personal Story with some in making $ and working at Dungeons. After I beat story, it was nice but also a bit disappointing. I spent most my time afterwards playing dungeons for my exotics sets (trying to ignore the fact that my purpose for playing was maxed stat armor with shiny skins, which in itself is meant to be used for other things). I got a full set of exotic armor now (half of each set I am working at) and now went back to map completion. I probably will get bored of this character soon enough once I complete map. And I doubt my next character will have same burning desire to level and play as first.
Still, there will be always something I’ll want to go after or learn to use, if not master. So while I may have beat a couple of the end games (80 and story), I still have many stones left unturned =P

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Posted by: coglin.1496

coglin.1496

No, it’s not. It is what endgame is. I just defined it, established parameters for it’s meaning to adhere to. Everything is either endgame or not endgame based on those parameters.

Tell yourself what ever you need to, so you sleep better at night.

If you like, I could mail you a dictionary. It actually refers to a different concept entirely, but because you make up fake definition, you would not know that. Originally it was a chess reference, and refereed to once all the pawns are gone, relatively speaking, how you would conquer and win.

End game by definition has absolutely nothing to do with progression. Nor does its MMO relative concept.

I drove to wal-mart previously, that does not mean all driving involves going to wal-mart anymore then your ridiculously false claim that because you played MMOs with tiers that it defines end game in all MMOs must have progression tiers.

Poor craftsman blame their tools. Poor players blame their Engineer.

(edited by coglin.1496)

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Posted by: TrickSmartly.7391

TrickSmartly.7391

Zealots are always morons. It’s your lack of individualization that reeks on the brain since your strength lay in the collective as separately you are weak willed submissives. I only mention it because of the rampart religious-like fervor attributed to this game and this forum. It disgusts me and very little else does because it is a degradation, the true heresy, a blaspheme against the holy spirit, that of our cosmic evolution.

There are definitions to terms to better facilitate communication and these definitions are established colloquially as the language undergoes its own evolution. Thus from mouth to mouth the language doth grow and thus the seeds of thine own soul spill forth past thine tongue into eternity.

This game is a bologna sandwich. Prove me wrong!!!!

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Posted by: roqoco.4053

roqoco.4053

MMOs have PvE content. When you have finished doing the PvE content and don’t wish to do it again then you have finished the game. GW2 launched with a very large amount of content compared to other MMOs, but unfortunately the levelling system pushes everyone into farming/grinding in one area leaving most of the content unplayed, since when you get to level cap there is no challenge (and no incentive for those who need that) in going back.

So that’s why people are complaining about lack of endgame – if you could wander all over the world and experience relevant gameplay as you can in Guild Wars 1, then “end game” would not be an issue and the whole game would indeed be end game.

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Posted by: bcbully.7289

bcbully.7289

Why call it endgame? Why not call it something else? Apparently, since endgame is anything than it be called anything too. Let’s just rename it to bologna sandwich and say that it can mean anything, at any time and any place. On the bus? That’s bologna sandwich. Doing the dishes? Bologna sandwich. This post is bologna sandwich. My cat is a bologna sandwich.

Why use other words? It’s all bologna sandwich.

bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich bologna sandwich

NCsoft is going to send you a pm and offer you a job in their marketing department.

Why not rename it? They renamed -
Battle Grounds and called them Spvp
The renamed the cash shop and called it the “Trading Post”
Public Quest are now called dynamic events
They changed the idea of gold buying as something sleazy and wrong to something gamers without time do.

They missed a real opportunity without you on their team.

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Posted by: GustavoM.7605

GustavoM.7605

Endgame is not some whimsical abstraction that you make on your own.

I already said about this In my first post, lacking a few details. So let me try to enlighten things a little bit more: It’s useless for the devs to call a certain feature as “endgame” If you don’t care about It.
I know two/three of my childhood friends that still plays -AND- roleplays In Ultima Online. Ultima Online Is a RP-focused game? No. Are they enjoying It, even If repeating the same thing over and over again? Yes. Would make It valid for them to call RP as a “endgame” for Ultima Online(ITT:* Content you enjoyed and don’t mind repeating*)? YES.

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Posted by: Focksbot.6798

Focksbot.6798

I think I get what you’re saying.

Endgame = something engaging to keep doing after hitting level 80 and finishing your personal story. Repetitive grinding for a few weapons and unbalanced WvW isn’t engaging enough. We need WvW overhauling, and we need things that appeal more widely.

Right?

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Posted by: Kalocin.5982

Kalocin.5982

My opinion is that the reason for playing an mmorpg shifted at some point or another. Back in the day sure it was about the loot and mobs, but it was also about the community and making a place for yourself within it. Who was I in Ultima Online? That guy with a boat who fished stuff and had a guild castle. Who was I in WoW in vanilla/bc (before the community died)? The most annoying player ever, a rogue who caused wars in low level zones. Who am I in GW2? I’ve yet to figure it out but from a certain standpoint it doesn’t feel like the game is giving you any room to belong.

The player is merely a player within the world, they don’t have a place to claim for their own (not literally virtual ground lol). To some degree this also happened in WoW with the dungeon/raid finder and making questing all single, however, I might also argue that the game still allows you to have a place in it due to world pvp and guilds.

In any case, I think that GW2 needs to add in some more sandbox features, not necessarily change major things, but allow for players to make an identity right now such as something like visible WvW names or customizable homes….player stores etc. The only thing making an identity for yourself is legendaries, simply because they are easy to spot and nobody has them.

TLDR: Player needs to be able to make an identity/place in the world rather than simply walking through it.

(edited by Kalocin.5982)

Endgame: The real concept, of. (opinion)

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Posted by: Mira.4071

Mira.4071

I think the point of having massive amounts of level scaling (scaling all PvP up to 80 and scaling all PvE down to its intended level) was to avoid needing to design “endgame”. The endgame is the whole game.

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Posted by: Azthioth.9682

Azthioth.9682

The hell is wrong with you people? MMORPGS and all RPG’s are about progression. When progression ends, the game ends.

Seriously, are you so desperate to hold on to your little game that you will make up this kitten to make yourself feel better about playing a game past the point of usefulness?

We progress, therefore we are

If what you say is true, OP, then why not open the box, be at 80 and then sit on your thumbs in the city for hours a day? What you want is called a sandbox mmo, look it up. Any successful game of this genre has more to do than update your skins.

Looking forward to future game updates. “Come fight the big monster in the new zone so you can color your armor potato and carrots while using a new weapon skin to look like a Human toe! There will be no challenge and no gear requirement because in our world, everyone gets a chance!”

Point of endgame, defined by the community of MMO’s, Don’t give a kitten what your dictionary says, is to complete the progression to defeat the next level of enemy. Remove this simple concept and you have a failed game.

Unless Anet gets its game hat on, this game will be over quickly. People will run out of things to do and stop pushing to move forward for nothing.

Risk/Time/Reward

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Posted by: Reclusiarh.2674

Reclusiarh.2674

I like how Anet designed the game of GW2, I support the game and I think there are still more pros then cons, especially without the sub, but I’m also of the opinion, that endgame is lacking something extra.

Yes, they have improved the drop rate in lower zones for L80s, and the scaling system works fair enough,I know because I go there regularly to farm mats, still, more should be done, more thought should be invested in the simple question: What do I do, when I level up.

Right now, to be honest, sometimes I think Disneyland must have produced this game. I’m over 40s so this is not appealing to me. Pirates of the Caribean islands are fun, but throw in the game also some unlucky twists of fate, some blood and devious conspiracy. A chance to be on the wrong side, a chance to make the wrong decision only so, that later you get the chance to repent for the past deeds.

I proposed in my thread a simple solution: The game only begins when you finish the game.

How: You go over to the opposite side and you have to work against the former allies, with only the help of the few followers. You switch to the dark side. I named this dark side Order of the Dragon,but to others this dark side can be anything else, as long its on another level of difficulty and a challenge, worthy of my time when I’m L80.

I know this isn’t the concept of the designers from Anet, they want this game to appeal to the widest audience including kids, and such approach would probably anger the strong and vocal minority of some parents, but sooner or later this game will have to grow up, because the players, who will also grow up will demand it.

Say whatever you will, but a true endgame will come, sooner or later, or the competition will take over the player base. And then good bye good business.

Guild wars should be war between orders, because orders are guilds too.

(edited by Reclusiarh.2674)

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Posted by: roqoco.4053

roqoco.4053

“I think the point of having massive amounts of level scaling (scaling all PvP up to 80 and scaling all PvE down to its intended level) was to avoid needing to design “endgame”. The endgame is the whole game.”

That’s not what Arenanet said when they were explaining the downscaling system a few months before launch. It was in fact designed so that you don’t 1 shot mobs in low level areas and spoil the events for other players, but you are still much stronger than the content. That’s a worthy idea, but it’s no kind of challenge, unless you like playing whilst AFK. Low level content simply isn’t relevant to high level players.

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Posted by: MacDizel.6345

MacDizel.6345

End game…. for me is when i just get bored with the content/ challanges of any given game stop playing and go make a bologna sandwich. Kinda funny being level 80 in g2 makes me want a bologna sandwich.

“*To live is to war with trolls*.”
? Henrik Ibsen

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Posted by: evilcherry.1327

evilcherry.1327

My opinion is that the reason for playing an mmorpg shifted at some point or another. Back in the day sure it was about the loot and mobs, but it was also about the community and making a place for yourself within it. Who was I in Ultima Online? That guy with a boat who fished stuff and had a guild castle. Who was I in WoW in vanilla/bc (before the community died)? The most annoying player ever, a rogue who caused wars in low level zones. Who am I in GW2? I’ve yet to figure it out but from a certain standpoint it doesn’t feel like the game is giving you any room to belong.

The player is merely a player within the world, they don’t have a place to claim for their own (not literally virtual ground lol). To some degree this also happened in WoW with the dungeon/raid finder and making questing all single, however, I might also argue that the game still allows you to have a place in it due to world pvp and guilds.

In any case, I think that GW2 needs to add in some more sandbox features, not necessarily change major things, but allow for players to make an identity right now such as something like visible WvW names or customizable homes….player stores etc. The only thing making an identity for yourself is legendaries, simply because they are easy to spot and nobody has them.

TLDR: Player needs to be able to make an identity/place in the world rather than simply walking through it.

I understand where you come from, but I doubt whether the ultimate themepark of GW2 has place for any sandboxy features which does have tangible effect on the game world.

But then if I were the devs I would just add in more shiny gear for people to grind for ad nauseaum.

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Posted by: Rieselle.5079

Rieselle.5079

Endgame in GW2 is PvP. (just like in GW1.)

I hear you cry: “But I don’t like PvP!!!”
Well, you can’t ignore half of the entire game and then complain that there’s not enough content for you.

(edited by Rieselle.5079)

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Posted by: roqoco.4053

roqoco.4053

“Endgame in GW2 is PvP. (just like in GW1.)”

No that’s not true. GW1 has extensive things to do in PvE after you reach level cap and many many players never touched PvP in GW1.

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Posted by: MarzAttakz.9608

MarzAttakz.9608

One day in the foreseeable future when something good for non-casuals gets released we’ll be able to tell people complaining about end game grind and difficulty to “go back to GW2”. In that respect stating that GW2 would be the WOW killer was correct.

YOU KNOW THERE AIN’T NO REST FOR THE WICKED, TILL WE CLOSE OUR EYES FOR GOOD.

Once proud member of Extraordinary Gentlemen [EXG]{DESO4LIFE}

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Posted by: Tusuri.3178

Tusuri.3178

Oh my, again with this?

For how long are some people going to mistake character progression with stats increase? For how long are they going to assume that endgame is something different than gated, hand held, heavy instanced content that you have to repeat over and over? When are they going to assume that the so called progression is nothing more that an illusion, as your character’s gear stats’ increase always align with the next tier of enemies’ stats, with the aggravating factor that all previous content becomes obsolote as it doesn’t escalate?

“End-game” and “leveling process” are nothing more, nothing less that words for a bad game’s design. They started to be used when MMORPG degenerated from virtual worlds where your character developed his/her biography to a more linear, hand-help, treadmillish, gamey design. These complainers are so conditioned by this latter type of design that cannot conceive another way of playing.

Someone has mentioned Ultima Online, a game I played for 5 years after being a dedicated pen & paper roleplayer. There were no levels there, just a living world where you, as a gamer, developed your character’s story, you RP your character – seriously, I freaked out when I saw a “genius” above me stating that UO was not RP oriented. How come? You had to RP to make sense in that game, in fact, every aspect of that game was RP centric. Honestly, I don’t know what some people are talking about.

After so many years of linear, mind-numbing, skinner’s box heavy dependant MMOs, we have a game, GW2, that retakes the UO concept: a living world where any place you visit you can find challenge, things to do, secrets, etc. The progression is your character’s biography, you make your character story, that’s it, no stats, no illusionary progression, no skinner’s box.

I insist: you want this game to live forever? Easy: design a character, with his attributes, physical characteristics, psychological features, etc. and play through his/her eyes, being consistent with his/her personality. Try to avoid conveniences like waypoints, try not to rush, take your time, observe the world, make relationship with other players, design your own adventures, etc. This game provides you with the mechanics to make your character’s story unique. Now, the developers cannot play for you, neither hand holding is in this game’s foundations.

And forgive me if I sound harsh but if this doesn’t work for you and prefer a linear, arcade-ish, gamey, treadmill game you have a myriad of WoW clones in the market. So, why the complaining?

EDIT: grammar corrections.

(edited by Tusuri.3178)

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Posted by: xero.2097

xero.2097

Oh my, again with this?

For how long are some people going to mistake character progression with stats increase? …
“End-game” and “leveling process” are nothing more, nothing less that words for a bad game’s design….
Someone has mentioned Ultima Online, …..
After so many years of linear, mind-numbing, skinner’s box heavy dependant MMOs, we have a game, GW2, that retakes the UO concept: a living world ….
I insist: you want this game to live forever? ….
And forgive me if I sound harsh but if this doesn’t work for you and prefer a linear, arcade-ish, gamey, treadmill game you have a myriad of WoW clones in the market. So, why the complaining?

See I disagree with you, not only on the ground tht it throws around a LOT of buzzwords to try and validate your statement but because your not measuring GW 2 by the same standard that your measuring these other experiences. I’ll try to explain my meaning.

Regardless of what you’d like to believe this is a form of progression, by no means the only progression, but it is one.

“For how long are they going to assume that endgame is something different than gated, hand held, heavy instanced content that you have to repeat over and over?… "

For this i agree with you, this is endgame in its purest form, the point is however that you enjoy it and that hand holding is perhaps not really accurate.
Having a planned vision for how your game is going to retain players is NOT bad design, leveling process is again a form of progression, one which is easily measured, but not the only exclusive means.

“Someone has mentioned Ultima Online, a game I played for 5 years after being a dedicated pen & paper roleplayer. There were no levels there, just a living world where you, as a gamer, developed your character’s story, you RP your character – seriously, I freaked out when I saw a “genius” above me stating that UO was not RP oriented. How come? You had to RP to make sense in that game, in fact, every aspect of that game was RP centric. Honestly, I don’t know what some people are talking about. "

Now I’m assuming you played UO and not a PoL shard. I also came from the UO meridian days, I however remember a very different game then you do. I recall guys called “Chicken Boo” running around killing anyone who walked outside of town, I recall a house on any empty space that would take one. Niether of these had anything to do with RP 99% of the time, unless you are using the term “Role Play” to suggest people were playing the Role of murdering dinks. UO again had progression, it was how your sorcery skill prevented you from consistantly Kal Vas Flaming poor souls when your fresh off the boat, it was how were seperated those whom could kill trolls versus those whom killed rats in the sewers. There was no “level” for you to clearly see, but trust me when I say a power progression was deffinetly there.

""After so many years of linear, mind-numbing, skinner’s box heavy dependant MMOs, we have a game, GW2, that retakes the UO concept: a living world ….""

Love the skinners box reference BTW, however GW 2 does nothing to retake the concepts of UO, its just another mindless monster mash, you will never make your own unique mark on the world as you could at some points in the days of UO/AC. In GW 2 everyone gets the same chances to do everything. GW 2 is by strides easier then UO, and far far more forgiving. In UO I could wander out past Vesper and beyond from the get go. If you wandered up into Frost Gorge sound in GW 2 at initial character creation I’d say your chances of survival are probably a LOT less.

“I insist: you want this game to live forever? ….”

I think everyone wants a game to enjoy forever, and your follow up point I 100% agree with, however theres no much that GW 2 does in this regard that is ANY different then many other MMO’s. Heck if your looking for a good RP enviroment I’d recommend saving the 60$ and go play LOTRO, it has far more “RP” support then GW 2 does.

I don’t think you sound harsh, passionate yes, harsh no. However the rub is that GW 2 is actually very much like many other games, so players judge it by those experiences and standards. You don’t pick up Battlefield and compare it to WoW..you compare it to Duke Nukem or something. The problem is that GW 2 is actually very much like others of its ilk and people are expressing their displeasure with their experiences in the game. Its healthy venting your displeasure over what you spent 60$ on. The thing is those people will for the most part disappear if peole didn’t constantly demand they defend their point of veiw by claiming their opinions are wrong rather then accepting that its just their opinion based on what they experienced, instead they tend to go on the attack, prolonging a simple exit interview.

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Posted by: clex.6059

clex.6059

Bottom line is, if people once they reached level 80 are bored then endgame has failed, you can’t base a game like this on subscriptions because it has none, but if this game was a pay to play you would be seeing subs dropping at an alarming rate right about this time because many parts of GW2 has become stale and abstract.

Our guild was at the top of the WvW standings, our Alliance had yet to be beaten until they split apart and moved servers due to rolling every other server week after week, considering our guild was one of the most dedicated and longest guilds in the alpha and beta this is definately a sign that things are not good in GW2.

At this point I have stopped logging in and it is clear some of the guild members are feeling the same, it seems the only time we actually do log in is for the WvW reset which half can’t even get in because of queue times, once you do get in because we transfered servers and are now starting over it was so easy most of us actually logged due to boredom because we rolled everything, by the time we get back to tier 1 I doubt most people will even log back in.

In the end this game had great potential but as with most MMO’s lately its great out of the gate but not even 1/4 of the way around the track and it falls on its face. Unless there is a major overhaul or patch for the WvW and PvE in this game it will literally fall on its face the only reason you won’t hear about it is because its free and there are no subscritption cancelations to confirm this.

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Posted by: Calavera.1086

Calavera.1086

@Clex

No the game isn’t dying and it’s unlikely to do so in the foreseeable future. Last night I was taking a stroll in the low level areas just to see how it was doing and there were dozens of players there completing events, renown hears and gathering materials.

The problem is that people usually group with other like minded people and if they don’t like something and stop playing they already assume everyone else think the same when they clearly don’t.

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Posted by: Kasama.8941

Kasama.8941

“In a fundamental discovery made in 1954, researchers James Olds and Peter Milner found that low-voltage electrical stimulation of certain regions of the brain of the rat acted as a reward in teaching the animals to run mazes and solve problems. It seemed that stimulation of those parts of the brain gave the animals pleasure, and in later work humans reported pleasurable sensations from such stimulation. When rats were tested in Skinner boxes where they could stimulate the reward system by pressing a lever, the rats pressed for hours at a rate up to 2000 times per hour.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reward_system

^This is the concept of risk vs. reward, that has been applied to games. People have simply just become addicted to this behavior, so they can’t see a reason to play if there are no rewards. It’s a bit sad really.

80 Ranger | 80 Mesmer | 80 Thief | 80 Guardian | 40 Engineer
“The learned is happy, nature to explore. The fool is happy, that he knows no more.”
-Alexander Pope

(edited by Kasama.8941)

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Posted by: Mudfin.4637

Mudfin.4637

@Kasama

That’s not Risk v Reward, that’s do a certain action ad get a reward. I would say that the majority of newer games have an issue with Risk v Reward which, IMHO, is a reason they aren’t as good as the older games but that’s another topic…

End game is subjective in that it means different things to different players. I like the sPvP and WvW “endgame” so far. PvE is totally different though. To me there is none so I don’t play it. The bigger issue is that the game has been out for 2 months and we are talking about endgame. We shouldn’t be! We should still be talking about the game and adventuring to the end. What the hell are we all doing at 80 already? Man do I miss the days when it took some time to get somewhere…but that too is a topic for another thread. So I guess I’ll leave before I really start ranting.

Sibley Thorne – Necromancer – HoD

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Posted by: xero.2097

xero.2097

“This is the concept of risk vs. reward, that has been applied to games. People have simply just become addicted to this behavior, so they can’t see a reason to play if there are no rewards. It’s a bit sad really.”

See, the thing is first off I agree with the example. I do however disagree with the reasoning. I think ultimately its always us being rats pressing the keys. For most the effort put forward to entertain ourselves is far too exhausting. Its a big reason videogames are so popular, we no long need to go outside and pick up a stick and pretend we are fighting a dragon, most the work has already been done for us on the screen. The end result however is what people find lacking. It also becomes more transparent that we are just rats clicking a button.

In the end all games are “rats pressing buttons” the RP and metgame are constructs we fabricate in our heads with little help from the developers. The issue at the moment is that we are VERY aware we are rats pressing buttons, so the pleasure is greatly diminished, in short the game does a base job of distracting you from that fact.

(edited by xero.2097)

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Posted by: bojangles.6912

bojangles.6912

@Clex

No the game isn’t dying and it’s unlikely to do so in the foreseeable future. Last night I was taking a stroll in the low level areas just to see how it was doing and there were dozens of players there completing events, renown hears and gathering materials.

The problem is that people usually group with other like minded people and if they don’t like something and stop playing they already assume everyone else think the same when they clearly don’t.

That is actually your opinion. I wouldn’t say the game is dying in the slightest but a lot of people have stopped playing. The hype is over and a Halloween event isn’t going to bring all these people back. I am on a heavily populated server by Anet’s standards I guess in the lvl 25-30 type zone and saw 1 person.

If you compare the how many people log on now compared to launch, you will see the line go down consistently. I predict this game will carry the same path and fate as GW1 did. Had a hyped launch then fizzled semi-quickly but kept a steady fan base. Not a huge one in the hundreds of thousands but 100k-200k. But from hearing from a lot of GW1 players, it sounds like they feel GW1 is way better than GW2. I never played it so I don’t know but just seeing how it is now on my server versus launch, it has been decreasing in population.

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Posted by: bojangles.6912

bojangles.6912

People can say what “end game” means all they want. But people use end game to say raiding or pvp at max level. End game means it is the final stuff to date. So for example let’s say in WoW when MC was out and no BWL or AQ40 or Naxx40 out yet. MC and Ony was the highest raids available so that is end game. Once BWL comes out that is end game because it is the final raid to date until the next one is released and so on.

So to me that is end game because once you complete it all fully and no new raid has been out yet, you have reached the end of the game in a way. Yes you still farm it or can do other things like pvp, farm for mats, fish, cook, etc. and yes the game technically is never ending because you don’t follow a path and beat the last guy and then it says “Game Over” followed by credits.

It’s funny because when people say, “How’s the end game here?” we all know what they mean, yet in this post these same people try to make it a completely different definition.

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Posted by: Kasama.8941

Kasama.8941

@Kasama

That’s not Risk v Reward, that’s do a certain action ad get a reward. I would say that the majority of newer games have an issue with Risk v Reward which, IMHO, is a reason they aren’t as good as the older games but that’s another topic…

End game is subjective in that it means different things to different players. I like the sPvP and WvW “endgame” so far. PvE is totally different though. To me there is none so I don’t play it. The bigger issue is that the game has been out for 2 months and we are talking about endgame. We shouldn’t be! We should still be talking about the game and adventuring to the end. What the hell are we all doing at 80 already? Man do I miss the days when it took some time to get somewhere…but that too is a topic for another thread. So I guess I’ll leave before I really start ranting.

It is the basis of the concept of ‘risk vs. reward’. Which is needed in some way. The problem is that MMOs have based this concept around the whole game. “You want to have fun playing? You have to level to 80 to get to the endgame first.” “You want to compete with other people in raids? You have to get the right gear first.” People have gotten so use to this, so that now, when a game like Guild Wars 2 comes along and basically gives them the rewards without having to put a lot of risk in, they don’t understand it. They are basically thinking “I put all this effort into level up, and now I don’t get a reward at the end”. This is what many are talking about when saying “you are playing the game wrong”.

Leveling up is the risk, endgame is the reward. Killing a boss is the risk, getting loot is the reward. This is what has been encoded in most MMO players. So when there is no endgame, and you only get low rewards for killing a boss, these players don’t know how to approach the game. They’ve forgotten that games are an entertainment product, not a gamble. They have become addicts to endgame and rewards, the same way a person gets addicted to winning money in poker. They play for the rewards, not for the game. And the sad part about it is, they aren’t even aware of it.

80 Ranger | 80 Mesmer | 80 Thief | 80 Guardian | 40 Engineer
“The learned is happy, nature to explore. The fool is happy, that he knows no more.”
-Alexander Pope

(edited by Kasama.8941)

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Posted by: roqoco.4053

roqoco.4053

But from hearing from a lot of GW1 players, it sounds like they feel GW1 is way better than GW2. I never played it so I don’t know but just seeing how it is now on my server versus launch, it has been decreasing in population.

Guild Wars 1 was a good game, so is GW2 largely. Where I think it goes wrong though, certainly for GW1 players, is in the compromises that have been made to attract WoW fans (leveling, gear grind, easy mode). GW2 goes too far away for fans of Guild Wars 1, but not far enough for fans of WoW style MMOs. It’s trying to be all things to all men, but just succeeds in striking an uneasy balance that falls between the two stools.

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Posted by: bojangles.6912

bojangles.6912

But from hearing from a lot of GW1 players, it sounds like they feel GW1 is way better than GW2. I never played it so I don’t know but just seeing how it is now on my server versus launch, it has been decreasing in population.

Guild Wars 1 was a good game, so is GW2 largely. Where I think it goes wrong though, certainly for GW1 players, is in the compromises that have been made to attract WoW fans (leveling, gear grind, easy mode). GW2 goes too far away for fans of Guild Wars 1, but not far enough for fans of WoW style MMOs. It’s trying to be all things to all men, but just succeeds in striking an uneasy balance that falls between the two stools.

Excellent points and agreed. I think that is why more people are leaving because I will admit I got the game because I read there will be a lot more pve this time but imo it wasn’t done the way a pve based game would do and they tried to make it their own. I think they should have stuck to their roots and made a new and improved GW1. Like EQ2 did. Yes it was a little more WoWish but it still kept to the EQ1 roots in a way. Look what happened to SWG when they revamped their game to be like WoW.

Not saying GW2 failed in the least but going with what you said makes the most sense.

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Posted by: xero.2097

xero.2097

I still disagree with the “risk vs reward” concept.

To use the poker example, there is a risk, because the money you may lose to the pot is not easily replaced. In many ways its the difference between poker with actual money vs poker chips at the cottage. In one case your gambling with something with a value attached, the other you are not. The merit of winning is you seee a return on what you have invested with value.

I see it as players have invested 60$ and time into a game, the return however was not what they expected, thus their displeasure. They do not look back fondly on their experiences in the game because they’ve done these things before and very little has struck them as memorable.

Many dungeon runs for myself for example devolved quickly to people pulling Gaherron into the hallway while people ran circuits killing acolytes before burning down the crystal, despite having never run the dungeon myself till that time, I found that the methods of victory had quickly became so easily apparent that it frankly ruined the dungeon experience, something I value greatly since my time as a AC player. This is not to say “all dungeons suck” but to myself dungeon experiences are a memorable sticking point for me which I find lacking in GW 2, thus my waning interest. At the same time this does not say that others complaints of things are wrong, simply different.

I wouldn’t say its risk versus reward so much as cause and effect. People undertake a action with a expected result, that result however has come short on expectations and like rats pressing the button we press away only to realize there is no pleasurable shock to follow our action, thus our disappointment.

Again the nature of many video games is to press a button and give us a “pleasure zap”. A player can step outside the constructs of the game to find ways to entertain themselves like reporting bots all day or collecting all the dye colors. I would not say either of those two things was really intended in the design of the game however, just because one does not control the amount of bots nor does one plan to use all the colors of dyes there are.

Just a thought.

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Posted by: raphaeldisanto.5478

raphaeldisanto.5478

If you want continuous character progression, go play something else. Guild Wars 2 isn’t about that, and it never was.

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Posted by: szar.9054

szar.9054

… um it better be about " continuous" character progression or Anet has shot themselves in the feet. With out reasons to keep pushing a character forward, i might as well just RP kill my characters and be done with it.

that and abandon the guildwars and arena Net brands

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Posted by: Ordika.9513

Ordika.9513

I have been playing since headstart, have only about 165 or so hours played. I have never been in a zone with out noticing at least several other players playing. I have a level 55 Warrior, 40 Engineer, and 30 Guardian. I play any one of them for about 10 levels at a time, and once my Warrior hits 60, I’ll be introducing my 4th alt to the mix (Mesmer or Ranger).

I love that I can do that. I love that I can get on and do whatever I want that night. I love not having to meet a gear requirement or level requirement to be able to participate in this or that activity (yes I know zones do have level restrictions but there are a ton to choose from at every level that it hasn’t been an issue for me). But mostly I love that I don’t pay a monthly sub and that I can stop for a week to play Torchligh 2 or Tribes, or anything else and come back and not be behind. To me Endgame always meant the game is over (I am old and played games before there was anything past moving to the next level for progression).

Ordika Skirata || Keirstaad Rhith || Rhun Turold || Quinten Vigar || Ahrung Park
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks

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Posted by: Varielle.9074

Varielle.9074

Good, let these people leave. I used to play WoW for 5 years and the end-game consisted of raiding with 25/40 other people. It was okay fun but not really that fun. I’m glad GW2 doesn’t have this because I’m sick and tired of raiding as end game. I’m not in a rush to get to level 80 and having a blast exploring the different zones and discovering how to get a certain Vistas/POI.

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Posted by: callidus.7085

callidus.7085

My previous post was a little, teensy bit too abstract for most of you so allow me to explicate my feelings on the op’s post.

It’s dung. Endgame is not some whimsical abstraction that you make on your own. Endgame is not a make your own adventure novel nor is it a bologna sandwich.

Maybe no one defined it for you before so I will. Endgame is progression of your character at or near max level. It’s not subjective. It’s concrete. Anything not adhering to the parameters outlined is not endgame. Leveling is not endgame. Playing dress up is not endgame. Sitting on the bus is not endgame. And gw2 has a lack of endgame.

Specifically, “Endgame is progression of your character at or near max level.”, if this is the case.. you can call achievements endgame.. it is progression of your character.. and can be done at or near max level.. and in fact because of daily achievements, it can grow indefinitely.. Similarly, if you don’t complete jumping puzzles or dungeons until you are max level, by that definition, you can consider that endgame. You can reach the max level without 100% map completion as well.. so that can also be considered endgame.. so much endgame! :-P

Slow down and smell the pixels.

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Posted by: Raf.1078

Raf.1078

But “level scaling” should have done away with "Endgame"mentality. Except that the endgame concept is so ingrained on so many players that the idea of playing anywhere on the map with their level 80 toon(and still find challenge) is not even considered.

I love the concept personally. But its become apparent that a large population of gamers can’t seem to step outside that particular box.

PF/ GOAT on Tarnished Coast (Semi-Retired)
Raf Longshanks-80 Norn Guardian / 9 more alts of various lvls / Charter Member Altaholics Anon

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Posted by: Reclusiarh.2674

Reclusiarh.2674

What is funny is that after reaching L80, you still get levels, it’s just that the game doesn’t tell you that. You are progressing without knowing.

Guild wars should be war between orders, because orders are guilds too.

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Posted by: Logun.2349

Logun.2349

Remember WoW is just one game, it’s not a Genre.

The truth about “Endgame” (and I’ve grown to hate the term) is it’s simply a game mechanic to keep you playing between content.

For some that might be the need for a perceived progression, for others it might be PvP leader board statistics, and for others it might be unlocking rare weapon skins. I’ve even seen MMO’s use crafting as part of their endgame giving players long term goals to build houses, ships and guildhalls virtually board by board and brick by brick.

I’ve never been a big fan of instanced off “endgames” that fundamentally changes the game you’ve played to get to level cap or individual gear progression.

The gear progression endgame mechanic just brings with it too many social and game breaking issues to be viable long term. Gear inflation is inevitable over time and each expansion virtual wipes out the progression from the last by razing the gear bar even higher. Developers always have to put a fast path for returning or new players to get geared up to just under the last 2 tiers virtually making the old content obsolete.

From a social stand point you end up with the “Haves” and the “Have Not’s” the “Hard Core” and the “Casuals” and inevitably a disparity of players at top level segregated or discriminated against by the gear they have on their back. This is not exactly ideal for a MMO where you want players to let go of their differences and just have fun together.

The goal of any modern day MMO should be to give all players a path to continue and is intertwine as a group.
PvP, WvW, Dungions, Raids and even solo game play should come together in an ultimate long term challenge that can live on the life of the game.

I personally think Guild related challenges are the way to go for endgame content. Imagine the construction of a Guild Hall that needed contributions unlocked from Raids, Dungeons, WvW, , and Solo gameplay achievements World Completions, PvP, Crafting, Harvesting.

Guilds would have to build teams of players interested in all facets of the game, and not the narrow focused personal gain centric Raiding that’s been popularized by WoW.

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Posted by: szar.9054

szar.9054

oh goodie quoting broke again (i really hope the guy responsible for this bug got fired)

@ Raf
Actually Quite a few people consider clearing out the entire world part of endgame, Notice the number of people with 100% star next to their names. Oh anet also forces anyone going for legendaries to do that little feat fyi. The issue is the activities have no rewards of value if your higher level than the nearest heart vendor.

@ reclusiarh
yes we do still ding every few hundred thousand exp, but for the most part its pointless if you not looking to by mystic forge regents. I have all my charr engineer’s skills a blood stone and 50 skill points rotting . it is just a half done mechanic , that might save you once in a blue moon with its knockback effect

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Posted by: edjahman.9104

edjahman.9104

Seriously, go back to WOW if this game isn’t meeting your needs.