Guild Wars 2

This game set out to do something new. Fundamentally, are you sated by the current range of activities and pursuits available at level 80? Aka thePVE Endgame.

GW2 Philosophy no.1
Progression is heavily cosmetic, there is no gear grind or gear gating in order to access content (except Fractals).

Downside Result
No need to keep adding dungeons that contain higher level gear. Very little emphasis on Dungeons since launch or addition of new ones.

Players grind gold in order to pay for cosmetic items. Various forms of progression or distinction for players is tied to wealth. The most desirable items are not linked to player skill level or locked behind difficult content. Players therefore engage in farming gold to the extent that various strong anti-farming measures have had to be implimented.

Ideas such as the recent Collections introduce additional goals for completionist personalities and the wealthy without addressing the matter of content for people to play.

GW2 Philosophy no.2
The revolutionary Living World will have a big part in keeping players engaged and entertained

Downside Result
Temporary nature of the content means that new players miss out on prior meaningful moments and understanding of the story. Content is created then removed, inefficient use of design resources.

Silverwastes has some interesting new mechanics but it’s become a loot train and afk’ers zone. Zones like Drytop and SW arrive with novelty value but ultimately lack the depth and challenge that will keep players engaged for significant amounts of time.

I would personally like to see a greater direction towards instanced content rather than these big playbox maps as the future. And to make events like Teq and TT instanced raid type events. And more 5 man dungeons, but better ones in which its impossible to skip any encounter and are overall more engaging and immersive.

But how about you. How good a job do you think Anet have made when it comes to providing players with endgame entertainment? The entertainment and satisfaction value of what you spend most of your time doing in the game as a lvl 80 in PVE. And the provision of goals there for you.

And what, if anything, do you think Anet should be trying to do that they aren’t already in this regard?

I think the expectations of the MMO fans are unrealistic. They seem to want a game to provide endless entertainment for many hours a day, over the course of years. No game can provide this. Wow came closest, but even it suffers from “lack of things to do” complaints. Since no other game has even come close to generating the revenue WoW has, they cannot be expected to have the same budget, and it is budget combined with creative direction that produces content.

As to ANet and GW2: I believe the game originally offered great value for the money. I’ve played somewhere approaching 3K hours now. For the amount I’ve spent, that represents excellent value. As far as MMO crowd expectations, I think ANet failed to generate endgame content that looked sufficiently like WoW’s (or other, similar games) to satisfy the “standard” MMO crowd.

The problems stem, I think, from two things.

1. ANet thought that content would be repeated because of fun. MMO content’s fun rarely lasts more than a few months. GW2 is 2.66 years old.
2. Cosmetics were asked to do too many things, and were resource intensive (i.e. armor sets) to produce. Thus, while there are a lot of skins available during the leveling content, there are nowhere near enough to provide for a robust cosmetic endgame.

I very much doubt that ANet will revert to instance-based endgame. I do expect they will continue to experiment with persistent world content.

I think the format for what they are attempting to do is good, cosmetics instead of stats. I feel there are some issues with their implementation though.

Gold is the core of the problem for me, the vast majority of items in the game are directly or indirectly linked with gold including items seen as rare or for veteran players. Gold is purchasable with real-world money, can be acquired in large quantities through farming, flipping and generally activities that do not require you to improve or in some cases actively play the game. Which means its easily possible for a lower end player to “beat” a high end player in regards to advancing their account (I.E skins unlocked).

What I’d like them to do and what they seem to be going towards is to force players to actually
1. Keep playing different content to generate new rewards (no grinding the same content over and over for endless new rewards)
2. Require the player to show individual skill if they want the nicer stuff (The story achievements were a good starting step, but allowing parties to do them brought gold to buy them back into the equation.)

What I’d like them to do additionally:
3. Start to introduce more extreme prestige items I.E sub 1% playerbase access. (there are nearly 3000 skins your average player can potentially access it’s time to give some items for high skilled players to distinguish themselves from someone who just farms gold.)
4. More instanced content: open world is nice but it can be trivialized by a group, doesn’t focus on the individuals abilities and can be potentially bypassed with the assistance of other players (I.E mesmer portals to the end of JP’s and the like).

The general idea of cosmetic and horizontal progression is a good one and no reason why it can’t fundamentally work. But the core problems are the dependence on gold for progression and distinction, and the tendency for Anet to deliver loot train, easy mode content that asks nothing of players while being highly economically rewarding. Those things would make for uninteresting gameplay no matter the structure.

The positive outlook is that changing the overall reward structures would go a long way to improving how people approach and think of their play time, without even altering the content available. It’s an achievable thing for Anet. For instance, They try to lure people into Fractals via the Daily system. Instead, make the rewards for Fractals much more appealing and prestigous in some form and suddenly more people will entertain the idea of playing them.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I think the expectations of the MMO fans are unrealistic. They seem to want a game to provide endless entertainment for many hours a day, over the course of years.

This.

The primary question at the top of the post is kind of flawed out of the gates. There are players that will play a game 6 hours + every single day. Of course there’s not going to be enough content to sate them. There never will be. In any game.

And then there are people like me that can’t play very frequently at all. I’m often overwhelmed by all that I want to do, but don’t have time to do, and feeling pressure because content is temporary and if I don’t get it done fast enough I will end up losing out on ever achieving some things. I wish things like the Luminescent gear didn’t take such a, what is to me, insane amount of time to obtain.

If you’re defining endgame as a radically different style of gameplay once X point is reached, then GW2 either has all endgame (in that everything opens to you once you exit the newbie instance), or no endgame (in that level 80 doesn’t unlock a new style of gameplay).

If the question is then, should Guild Wars 2 have a point where the gameplay becomes radically different than what it was before that point, I say no, it shouldn’t.

If the question is simply should there be more Things, the answer is obviously yes there should be more Things, and this thread could’ve just stated that instead of this entire thing about philosophy and endgame.

I think it’s definitely time to mix it up, there is a danger this game becomes nothing but zerging and grinding. That’s not a good alternative to raiding.

The answer is 42.

I prefer Open World content to instanced content. For me, Season Two of the LS was lacking in comparison to Season One. It wasn’t nearly as much fun, nor did it have anywhere near the amount of replayability.

I hope Heart of Thorns brings better replayability (and enjoyment) without resorting to so much instanced content. Or…that the instanced content is fun more than just once.

Corian.4068:

If you’re defining endgame as a radically different style of gameplay once X point is reached, then GW2 either has all endgame (in that everything opens to you once you exit the newbie instance), or no endgame (in that level 80 doesn’t unlock a new style of gameplay).

If the question is then, should Guild Wars 2 have a point where the gameplay becomes radically different than what it was before that point, I say no, it shouldn’t.

If the question is simply should there be more Things, the answer is obviously yes there should be more Things, and this thread could’ve just stated that instead of this entire thing about philosophy and endgame.

The question however often is that there should be less things. At the moment you
are not forced to play specific content to earn gold, and with gold you can buy most
of the skins.

Now what a lot of those “endgame” folks want however is to have less option, that
for example you only get the cool skins in Fractal 50s.

I think taking away the ability to play Keg Brawl 7 days a week has impacted my experience of end game in GW2 very negatively.

I’m only partially kidding.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I prefer Open World content to instanced content. For me, Season Two of the LS was lacking in comparison to Season One. It wasn’t nearly as much fun, nor did it have anywhere near the amount of replayability.

I hope Heart of Thorns brings better replayability (and enjoyment) without resorting to so much instanced content. Or…that the instanced content is fun more than just once.

Yay .. finally someone else who thinks so.

Personally i haven’t even gotten 1 single AP from those instances, and i think i
spent 20+ times more time in LS1 content than in LS2.

I think ANet simply hasn’t realized that all those people that cry for “harder” content
don’t really want that in story instances where they have to kite a mob 10 minutes
in circles just to get nothing at the end (for the second+ time), but that they want
mainly better loot.

I often also thought that maybe i’m the only one who doesn’t really like that stuff
but i see so many people in my guild that haven’t even touched that stuff till know
while in LS1 mostly everyone was always there where the action was.

Define “better loot”. If you give them shiny skins faster, those skins automatically devaluate as a result of that and hence they’ll want “better loot”. :P

Carighan.6758:

Define “better loot”. If you give them shiny skins faster, those skins automatically devaluate as a result of that and hence they’ll want “better loot”. :P

The word that is used here often is “exclusive” ..

Beldin.5498:

Corian.4068:

If you’re defining endgame as a radically different style of gameplay once X point is reached, then GW2 either has all endgame (in that everything opens to you once you exit the newbie instance), or no endgame (in that level 80 doesn’t unlock a new style of gameplay).

If the question is then, should Guild Wars 2 have a point where the gameplay becomes radically different than what it was before that point, I say no, it shouldn’t.

If the question is simply should there be more Things, the answer is obviously yes there should be more Things, and this thread could’ve just stated that instead of this entire thing about philosophy and endgame.

The question however often is that there should be less things. At the moment you
are not forced to play specific content to earn gold, and with gold you can buy most
of the skins.

Now what a lot of those “endgame” folks want however is to have less option, that
for example you only get the cool skins in Fractal 50s.

A different way of looking at it instead of less options is more control. They don’t want all the cool skins to be only from Fractal 50, they want a skin that is only from it so that it displays that they got to fractal 50. It’s more about giving items meaning.

If there is an item only obtained from fractal 50, then I know you’ve done that and that’s worth something. If it’s obtained for a large sum of gold I assume you’ve just used gems or grinded some easy content and it’s worth nothing.

A long time skilled player has earned the right to have a distinct and nice look which shouldn’t be matchable by a fresh 80 or by a player who may be doing poorly in-game.

Take for example 2 players:
Player A: is wearing, flamekissed armor the wings backpack, A Kasmeer staff and the golden pig mini, Golden title.
Player B: is wearing Luminescent, A fractal backpack, An amber/ascended weapon and the liandri mini, Dungeoneer title.

Both players look about equally visually appealing, despite Player A having done potentially nothing game wise, while Player B has accomplished a lot and only has a very small pool of skins to display that fact. It’s time for Player B’s to get some more skins with value attached (In my opinion).

Conski Deshan.2057:

A long time skilled player has earned the right to have a distinct and nice look which shouldn’t be matchable by a fresh 80 or by a player who may be doing poorly in-game.

And also not by other longtime players that are not so “skilled” in your definition,
and of course not by any players that simply dislike instanced content, since ofc
in your definition only instanced content means “skilled”.

I wonder what all those players that think only dungeons are “real” content would
say, if suddenly ANet would start to hide everything behind PvP ranks.

Beldin.5498:

Conski Deshan.2057:

A long time skilled player has earned the right to have a distinct and nice look which shouldn’t be matchable by a fresh 80 or by a player who may be doing poorly in-game.

And also not by other longtime players that are not so “skilled” in your definition,
and of course not by any players that simply dislike instanced content, since ofc
in your definition only instanced content means “skilled”.

I wonder what all those players that think only dungeons are “real” content would
say, if suddenly ANet would start to hide everything behind PvP ranks.

Actually my ideal version would be to award all forms of skilled play. Which I’m defining as playing to a higher standard/efficiency than the vast majority of players* (the exact amount for vast majority would be variable for each item). It’s just controlling how to award them so they can’t be fudged that’s usually the issue.

I want players to be constantly trying to improve rather than taking the route of least resistance or farming the same thing over and over for new rewards.

For example here are some things I’d like to give rewards for but what would have to happen to ensure the rewards have value.

So are you a top jumping puzzle player? then congrats you get a skin as a reward. (But it would either have to be instanced or all forms of portals disabled so that you can’t cheat with a mesmer.)

Are you a top PvP’er then have some skins. (but it would have to be a monitored tournament to ensure no win trading).

Did you complete that ultra hard dungeon? have a unique skin (But it has to ensure you can’t just buy your way in or get carried so an individual battle should occur at some point).

Hard achievements? have some skins (but they have to be individual so that you can’t get help from others).

Crafting? Sure make a nice skin (but every step is account bound and requires you to get the ingredients yourself).

That aside PvP ranks are farm-able and win trading is widespread making it an awful format for meaningful rewards.

I would love a Keg Brawl finisher added to the game to display my skill, dedication and achievement in Keg Brawl since launch. Most people boosted the title for AP.

Kedarrian.2905:

This game set out to do something new. Fundamentally, are you sated by the current range of activities and pursuits available at level 80? Aka thePVE Endgame.

The GW2 PVE endgame starts around level 1 (or so). You do not have to wait for level 80 to enjoy the game/endgame. I think the game really achieved something new.

But in every game there comes the time, when a player has “finished” all the content.

Some games try to delay this with gear grind and gear/raid-progression. GW2 does not (except in fractals…). I like it the GW2 way.

My only wish for A-Net/GW2: Create more content (they are doing this already) and do it faster (no one wants to wait). :-)

the answer is gw3

The changing map rewards and new Legendary quests are a step in the right direction. More quests for rewards that will still be meaningful at 80 are a definite positive. To be honest, it’s not that the game is lacking content, it’s just that not all of it will pull all of us in. Some of the Renown Hearts are just unexciting, but some are highly memorable, and some of the random encounters that will fill them are as well.

One of my favorites was basically an evil witch in the woods kidnapping little Charr children. I stumbled across the event while it was active, played the hero along with the rest of the players in the area, and got something memorable out of it. It advanced me towards my Gift of Exploration without me feeling like I was grinding for it. I was just playing the game and having fun. Little things like taking a catapult to a Vista, scaring cows, hearing a ghostly voice invite you inside of a cave opening ominously shaped like a skull; there is a lot of content here that I’ve never seen hinted at in other games, and that is amazing.

When the elements of a living world are done right, this game shines heavily, and makes the progression feel worthwhile. I don’t feel like I’m on a slog for gold or trinkets, I’m just having fun. I hope that more quests like this arrive in the future.

I’d also like to point out this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lwd/Dancing-With-Dragons-Improving-Iconic-Foes

While it specifically deals with the bigger picture of the game in terms of the ever-present force that looms over Tyria, it very much presents something that players in other MMOs will rarely see in terms of depth of presentation if it were delivered at the level Anet is capable of. It will, like LS 2, have to mostly occur in the as yet unlocked areas of Tyria, and perhaps beyond, and the permanence of some changes will have to be considered—perhaps being able to code so that certain NPCs no longer appear by default in instanced areas depending on how the story goes—but I’d love to see this scope of a Living World implemented.