Guild Wars 2

chemiclord.3978:

SonicTHI.3217:

Might as well add this:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Is_it_fun

Not that it matters as ANET does not care at all for us who stuck with them for over 7 years or bought the game with these and many other articles in mind.

The game is all about farmers, grind and progression now.

Yep. You hit the nail right on the head.

The developers woke up one morning in November, held a meeting, and said, “Ya know our players who played GW1 for years? kitten ‘em. Just a bunch of ankle-biters. Let’s do something that hurts them and makes them angry… for… reasons.”

The conversation was more likely along the lines of…

“We’re losing the traditional MMO crowd that we never thought we’d attract in the first place. We need to do something to retain them.”

“How? They’re asking for the opposite of what fans from GW are expecting. If we add stat inflation, they might leave.”

“Be serious. Where can they go? To Rift? ToR? WoW? It’s not like they have a lot of options. We’ll make it shallow progression so it’s easier to swallow, and the gear grinders will be happy because they’ll have something to pursue.”

“OK, I see your point. Now, how do we drag this new tier out? We completely dropped the ball on Exotic. I can’t believe we were that out of touch with how quickly people would gear up.”

Sardonia.8196:

If the gear is not required for anything, why even have it at all?

Specifically to cater to the subset of players who like that sort of thing, or even feel like they need it to have a compelling reason to play.

To be sure, I’d prefer it did not exist- but my personal desires extend much further than that. I’d prefer there were no stats tied to tiers of gear at all, no leveling up in the traditional sense; essentially no vertical progression of any kind from minute one. But I also understand that this is a fairly extreme position not held by the majority of people who play online games, and don’t consider it realistic. It’s not hard for me to understand why Ascended gear was added to this game, but it is hard for me to be bothered by it, because the implementation is such that it will impact me personally in a very, very tiny way if at all.

Would you prefer that it were required? :-/

Hawkian.6580:

Sardonia.8196:

If the gear is not required for anything, why even have it at all?

Specifically to cater to the subset of players who like that sort of thing, or even feel like they need it to have a compelling reason to play.

To be sure, I’d prefer it did not exist- but my personal desires extend much further than that. I’d prefer there were no stats tied to tiers of gear at all, no leveling up in the traditional sense; essentially no vertical progression of any kind from minute one. But I also understand that this is a fairly extreme position not held by the majority of people who play online games, and don’t consider it realistic. It’s not hard for me to understand why Ascended gear was added to this game, but it is hard for me to be bothered by it, because the implementation is such that it will impact me personally in a very, very tiny way if at all.

Would you prefer that it were required? :-/

“Majority of the people who play online games”

Really?

In fact, majority of MMO players (limit yourself to MMOs at least it will look less silly) are rejecting that cheapo mechanism, or you havent noticed trail of failed WoW clones that were based on that or that WoW so many players that GW2 will never have that many, and it perfected it.

Bread.7516:

this…seriously…this.

and when ascended armor comes out, ascended WILL be the gear check in the future. (the total difference is huge)

Uhm, what gear check are you talking about? I’ve run PUGs in almost every dungeon, and almost every path with full greens/yellows (on alts) and had no issues. Not once has anyone ever asked me to ping my gear running dungeons and I’ve yet to have our group fail on anything because of it. If I was looking to do FoTM 30+, sure I could see the gear check requirement, but the people that do FoTM 30+ are a very small minority of the playerbase.

Perhaps ascended gear will affect your elite speed dungeon run/high level FoTM groups, but I can tell you that 95% of the players will have no issue running every bit of content with the armor they can get now.

This isn’t WoW, there are no gear checks…only kittens gearcheck people in GW2 for anything that isn’t high level FoTM or dungeon speed runs, and if you’re the kind of person that farms dungeons and runs high level FoTM then odds are you are the same person that wants a gear treadmill anyway and are looking forward to the ascended tier. It will affect no one else.

Apparently, for a lot of people anything besides sitting in LA and posting in map chat is considered a grind.

People keep on talking about how they need to craft their ascended weapons. Where is the need? No where does it stated that you need to craft it. Far as I know there are several ways to gain Ascended weapons outside of crafting. If you play normally eventually you will gain an ascended weapon.

Do you need your ascended weapon right this instant?

Does the weapon provide such a large bonus in WvW that you can not possibly win without it?

You do realize that legendaries are above Ascended now in that you can choose any stat you want while being ascended quality. I don’t see anyone complaining about that and walking through LA I can literally say that Legendaries are extremely common that at least every 1/10 people have one (From what I seen so far).

It is not stated that you need the weapon nor do you need it. You want it and you want it now for no reason other then it is BiS.

MikaHR.1978:

“Majority of the people who play online games”

Really?

In fact, majority of MMO players (limit yourself to MMOs at least it will look less silly) are rejecting that cheapo mechanism, or you havent noticed trail of failed WoW clones that were based on that or that WoW so many players that GW2 will never have that many, and it perfected it.

This is a pretty silly counterargument. One, I specifically didn’t limit myself to MMOs because ArenaNet did not do so when targeting its prospective playerbase. And indeed, tons of popular modern multiplayer online games of all kinds from FPSes to loot-driven dungeon runners employ some system of persistent progression. People like it, I swear. Second, the “trail of failed WoW clones,” which I absolutely have noticed, in contrast to GW2’s outstanding success so far, is mere ammunition for my argument that a shallow and optional vertical progression curve can be as appealing as a deep and required one, if not moreso. Finally, if a majority of the people who play online games shared the position that I have about MMO progression, there would be a lot more games that attempted what I suggested- or even a single one. Even EVE to some degree employs a progression to better ships over time. Ironically, the closest example I can even think of is the PvP of Guild Wars 2 itself, which has no vertical progression to speak of and gear tiers are irrelevant. It might also interest you to know that at one point early in its dev cycle, Guild Wars 2 didn’t use player levels at all (further embracing GW1’s tiny level range rather than straying from it) , but this was so jarring to traditional MMO mentalities that the idea was scrapped in favor of the more familiar 80-level curve- just made far more shallow and less exponential.

The truth is that there’s a vast middle ground of players who enjoy a little vertical progression but also don’t want it to become a bottlenecking factor for their fun or their ability to do what they want. Guild Wars 2 is ideal for those people and there are a ton of them.

You could have constructed a way better rebuttal to my claim, by the way. You could have said “look at Guild Wars 2’s initial success without Ascended gear, when people all had best-in-slot gear after 24 hours, and contrast that with the failed WoW clones that relied on longer vertical progression; why would ArenaNet want to make their already-successful game more like less-successful games?” This would be a much tougher question, to which my response would be that they have data on their playerbase that I don’t, and it must have been determined that they could compel a significant enough number of some subset of players to continue logging in by introducing a small amount of vertical progression. Based on their continued growth it would have to appear that this was an accurate determination.

Hawkian.6580:

Raine.1394:

I’ll be happy to break it down for you.

You used an enormous number of words to provide no concrete evidence whatsoever. Nothing- literally nothing- that you typed in that post adequately defines reaching the top of the power curve in Guild Wars 2 as non-optional. You provide no examples and attempt to prove that obtaining best-in-slot gear in every slot is required with logical assertions that essentially stipulate “larger numbers are bigger than smaller numbers, and if you’re good at math you’ll understand why this proves my point.” But your argument absolutely hinges on this statement:

It is self-evident that there will come a point where the difference is not immaterial but rather significant.

You can’t just say it’s self-evident. I’m asking you to provide evidence. If such a point does come then your interpretation of what Ascended gear is for will be correct. Such a scenario would provide you with an example of the sort I was asking you for.

But thus far that scenario does not exist, nor does anything remotely close. None of the content in the game requires you to have Ascended gear; none of the content in the game even requires you to have Exotic gear. The exception of course is Fractals, but this is solely and completely because of the need for Agony Resistance, and is not at all dependent on the increase in statistical power afforded by the tier upgrade.

Game developers introduce VP for two primary reasons: 1) to provide players with a sense of character progression, and 2) to motivate continued play. It is the second purpose here that has to do with it being non-optional. Because we are talking about the power level of the game, and since it’s ascending, players are motivated to follow the power curve. Long term, if players wish to continue playing, they realize that they must keep up with the power increases that developers periodically implement to keep them playing.

I think what you’re correctly identifying here is that ArenaNet is definitely catering to a powerful desire of certain players (especially those used to more traditional MMO conventions) to progress, even feeling as though they have “nothing to do” in the sense of continued play unless there is something requiring some degree of time investment to improve their power level.

This is wholly distinct from whether or not doing so is optional.

My much simpler assertion to counter yours would be that it is optional, because it is not required.

I actually did provide an argument that you simply glossed over. And, I didn’t say anything about the ‘top’ of the GW2 curve being non-optional as I believe the difference between power level 1 & 2 that we’ve seen is optional. You are arguing a straw man that I have no interest in. That wasn’t my point. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. The top of the curve today will one day be the relative bottom of the curve.

I made a propositional statement: VP is non-optional and provided an illustration through describing it as a number series. When I said that it was self-evident I actually meant it. If you understand the nature of an ascending number series and you understand it describes the power level of the game, the fact that it is non-optional will ‘dawn’ on any rational human. Regardless, the nature of VP is well understood by experienced gamers and game developers. It is implemented in order to motivate play. The carrot is non-optional in the long-term. I’ve explained why. It’s obvious. My suggestion to you is that you educate yourself before engaging what are obvious matters in gaming.

Again you’ve said it’s self-evident and obviously non-optional with no evidence, not a single example. Your proposition that “the top of the curve will one day be the relative bottom” relies on a number of- at least three- presuppositions about the future of the game that are completely unsubstantiated. You imply I’m not a serious gamer and need to educate myself to understand, rather than explaining anything. All of these are rhetorical fallacies. In addition to not being evidence, which is all I asked for, they’re just totally useless in response to my question. They’re merely creative ways of telling me I’m wrong, when the burden of proof is to provide evidence for the initial claim.

Your line “vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping” is a little on the baffling side as well, and makes me think you might have confused the concepts of vertical progress in general with the notion of a gear treadmill, which is a related but distinct convention.

Hawkian.6580:

Again you’ve said it’s self-evident and obviously non-optional with no evidence, not a single example. Your proposition that “the top of the curve will one day be the relative bottom” relies on a number of- at least three- presuppositions about the future of the game that are completely unsubstantiated. You imply I’m not a serious gamer and need to educate myself to understand, rather than explaining anything. All of these are rhetorical fallacies. In addition to not being evidence, which is all I asked for, they’re just totally useless in response to my question. They’re merely creative ways of telling me I’m wrong, when the burden of proof is to provide evidence for the initial claim.

Your line “vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping” is a little on the baffling side as well, and makes me think you might have confused the concepts of vertical progress in general with the notion of a gear treadmill, which is a related but distinct convention.

The only presupposition I’m making in my argument is working with VP from its definition. Vertical: the power level of the game increases. Progression: it continually increases over time. You shouldn’t be baffled by my statement “vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping” because it’s just a statement logically following the definition of VP. And, VP is the element in game design that creates a gear grind treadmill—again by definition, not something that stands wholly distinct from it.

I invite you to describe the rhetorical fallacies that you find here, please. You state "Your proposition that “the top of the curve will one day be the relative bottom” relies on a number of- at least three- presuppositions about the future of the game that are completely unsubstantiated. " Please give the three presuppositions that this relies upon. I see only one, and that is the definition of vertical progression. But, I’m game, please list all the rhetorical fallacies and presuppositions that you see me relying upon. This should be fun.

Haha… of course vertical progression equals an increase in power over time. That has nothing to do with whether or not it stops, and the baffling part is that you’ve somehow incorporated it not stopping into your understanding of the term as defined? I think you actually are ill-defining it despite your confidence in what it means.

Imagine a game where you start at level 1, with a max level of 2. Level 2 characters are more powerful than level 1 characters. No more levels are ever added and there is no gear. This game has vertical progression. The vertical progression in this hypothetical game is very shallow and ends very quickly; however, vertical progression it remains. This game has vertical progression despite not even having gear, let alone a gear treadmill. I hope this clears things up a little bit. The terms can be confusing but vertical progression is not quite so specific as you’re making it out to be.

The presuppositions I was referencing entailed by your assertion would be that 1) more tiers of gear will be added to GW2, 2) enough tiers would be added for the stat total range from whites to ascended to be replicated in going from ascended to whatever the new best-in-slot would be (the only rational way to explain what you meant by the top one day being the bottom) and 3) existing content would be updated to require a new expectation of base player power level (as otherwise presupposition 2 would essentially mean halving the difficulty of all existing content). Of these, 1 is the only one I even entertain as a possibility, but it remains unsubstantiated.

As far as other fallacies your line about experienced gamers is an argument from authority, your discarding of my point about the current difference in power being optional is special pleading, and your entire thesis is an argument from self-evidence. In debates, I’m going to be perfectly honest with you, the term “self-evident” is almost always a terrible idea. The vast majority of the time it’s an overt indication that actual evidence is lacking. In terms of epistemology very few assertions can actually be claimed to be self-evident, and they’re usually weird philosophical bits like “discounting the notion that this is a dream or some sort of simulation, the statement ‘we are alive’ is self-evident.”

Hawkian.6580:

Haha… of course vertical progression equals an increase in power over time. That has nothing to do with whether or not it stops, and the baffling part is that you’ve somehow incorporated it not stopping into your understanding of the term as defined? I think you actually are ill-defining it despite your confidence in what it means.

Imagine a game where you start at level 1, with a max level of 2. Level 2 characters are more powerful than level 1 characters. No more levels are ever added and there is no gear. This game has vertical progression. The vertical progression in this hypothetical game is very shallow and ends very quickly; however, vertical progression it remains. This game has vertical progression despite not even having gear, let alone a gear treadmill. I hope this clears things up a little bit. The terms can be confusing but vertical progression is not quite so specific as you’re making it out to be.

The presuppositions I was referencing entailed by your assertion would be that 1) more tiers of gear will be added to GW2, 2) enough tiers would be added for the stat total range from whites to ascended to be replicated in going from ascended to whatever the new best-in-slot would be (the only rational way to explain what you meant by the top one day being the bottom) and 3) existing content would be updated to require a new expectation of base player power level (as otherwise presupposition 2 would essentially mean halving the difficulty of all existing content). Of these, 1 is the only one I even entertain as a possibility, but it remains unsubstantiated.

As far as other fallacies your line about experienced gamers is an argument from authority, your discarding of my point about the current difference in power being optional is special pleading, and your entire thesis is an argument from self-evidence. In debates, I’m going to be perfectly honest with you, the term “self-evident” is almost always a terrible idea. The vast majority of the time it’s an overt indication that actual evidence is lacking. In terms of epistemology very few assertions can actually be claimed to be self-evident, and they’re usually weird philosophical bits like “discounting the notion that this is a dream or some sort of simulation, the statement ‘we are alive’ is self-evident.”

You appear to have it. I correctly understand vertical progression to be vertical progression. Another way of saying this is to say that I understand the definition and work from there. The word progression has nothing to do with ‘stopping’. It about how a game scales and here it would be juxtaposed with horizontal progression.

I make none of the presuppositions you list. 1) I do not presuppose additional tiers necessarily. When they introduced VP the said they had no plans to introduce another tier or rarity and that VP would be implemented by upgrades to an existing tier (here ascended). The stated mechanism was infusions. Additional tiers are common in VP but the only thing required for VP to be VP is an increase in the power level of the game. 2) see 1, and 3) I make no presuppositions about content other than it would make sense to scale it according to the power level the game assumes through the process of VP.

The term self-evident is an excellent idea when it describes exactly what you intend to convey.

Self-evident: : evident without proof or reasoning.

We have a whole category, prima facie, which describes the self-evident, but let me give you an example from my example. When you are dealing with an infinite number series, 1,2,3,4,…n, you don’t need to provide an argument that ‘10’ will be larger than ‘1’, or that it will be ‘9’ increments larger. That is self-evident, prima facie, on the face of it by definition. It’s simply what we described the number series to be when we created it. Similarly, it takes no argument to prove that if the game scales vertically over time, eventually you will no longer be able to play the game if you don’t follow the power curve. It is self-evident, based upon an understanding of the definition of VP.

I really don’t know what to say beyond this as I feel I’ve communicated everything necessary for a rational person to understand VP. It’s really a very simple and basic concept that is well understood in gaming. My suggestion is to google the terms vertical and horizontal progression. There is a wealth of info out there. Here’s a couple starter links for you:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

I don’t provide these links in indication that the source necessarily confers any authority. Literally everyone (except some on forums here) speaking about progression in games, is using the conventional definition of VP that I have given here.

In reading this, it’s clear that you haven’t provided any new information and have muddied your argument even further…

In discounting the presuppositions I derived from your claim, you end with “I make no presuppositions about content other than:” and then follow it with the tl:dr version of what I attempted to be specific about with regard to your claim that “the top of the curve will one day be the relative bottom.”

I thought my simple example of a game with very shallow and terminal vertical progression would communicate that I understand the concept of vertical progression perfectly well, and I was simply distinguishing it from the related but distinct concepts of power creep and gear treadmills; you have merely suggested I google it. Indeed, you link me to a Penny Arcade episode specifically about power creep and a taugrim article describing “vertical scaling” solely as it relates to tiers of gear. There is no difference in definition between my understanding of vertical progression and theirs; you are merely attempting to conflate related but separate ideas into one.

With the clear inability for us to find common ground on this relatively mundane concept in mind, I’m happy to concede for the purposes of this argument that you’re a more serious gamer than me and know more about what simple and basic concepts like vertical progression are. That’s fine; I don’t need to convince you I’m more knowledgeable than you are to rebut your initial assertion.

So I’ll just reiterate my position simply. You say:

eventually you will no longer be able to play the game if you don’t follow the power curve

This is a positive claim and demands evidence. You have provided none. Your rationale is filled with clauses like “it takes no argument to prove” but you cannot simply say this and have it translate into truth. Again, this is an argument from self-evidence and simply fallacious. Demonstrating that larger numbers are larger than smaller ones (a proposition that I agree requires no further proof) really does not further your claim as much as you appear to think it does.

I take no issue with the way you’ve defined self-evident. It’s certainly accurate that you are attempting to argue without proof or reasoning. But the fact that something seems obvious to you does not make it correct; in fact, if the only line of argument you’re relying on is that it seems obvious to you, it’s a good idea for anyone you are making the statement to not to accept your claims. I certainly see no reason whatsoever thus far to describe the acquisition of best-in-slot gear in Guild Wars 2 as non-optional.

On a tangential note I think you may be a little confused with the term “prima facie.” The term res ipsa loquitur is closer to what you’re getting at.

Hawkian.6580:

In reading this, it’s clear that you haven’t provided any new information and have muddied your argument even further…

In discounting the presuppositions I derived from your claim, you end with “I make no presuppositions about content other than:” and then follow it with the tl:dr version of what I attempted to be specific about with regard to your claim that “the top of the curve will one day be the relative bottom.”

I thought my simple example of a game with very shallow and terminal vertical progression would communicate that I understand the concept of vertical progression perfectly well, and I was simply distinguishing it from the related but distinct concepts of power creep and gear treadmills; you have merely suggested I google it. Indeed, you link me to a Penny Arcade episode specifically about power creep and a taugrim article describing “vertical scaling” solely as it relates to tiers of gear. There is no difference in definition between my understanding of vertical progression and theirs; you are merely attempting to conflate related but separate ideas into one.

With the clear inability for us to find common ground on this relatively mundane concept in mind, I’m happy to concede for the purposes of this argument that you’re a more serious gamer than me and know more about what simple and basic concepts like vertical progression are. That’s fine; I don’t need to convince you I’m more knowledgeable than you are to rebut your initial assertion.

So I’ll just reiterate my position simply. You say:

eventually you will no longer be able to play the game if you don’t follow the power curve

This is a positive claim and demands evidence. You have provided none. Your rationale is filled with clauses like “it takes no argument to prove” but you cannot simply say this and have it translate into truth. Again, this is an argument from self-evidence and simply fallacious. Demonstrating that larger numbers are larger than smaller ones (a proposition that I agree requires no further proof) really does not further your claim as much as you appear to think it does.

I take no issue with the way you’ve defined self-evident. It’s certainly accurate that you are attempting to argue without proof or reasoning. But the fact that something seems obvious to you does not make it correct; in fact, if the only line of argument you’re relying on is that it seems obvious to you, it’s a good idea for anyone you are making the statement to not to accept your claims. I certainly see no reason whatsoever thus far to describe the acquisition of best-in-slot gear in Guild Wars 2 as non-optional.

On a tangential note I think you may be a little confused with the term “prima facie.” The term res ipsa loquitur is closer to what you’re getting at.

Of course, first and foremost assumption is that ANet doesnt want to end up with broken game.

Its kinda stoopid to have to point THAT out, and yes, its kinda obvious to well…everyone but you it seems.

jweez.7214:

Colin Johnson plans for this to be the last tier of gear. Exotic was just to easy to ascertain and anet had collectively come to the decision to try at it again. Googling quotes doesn’t help your cause. We all know what they said and they know what they said.

If exotics were too easy to acquire, why not focus on that then? Work the problem. Dont come up with a solution you know will enrage lots of players. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see a few steps down the road with this one.

Work the problem, dont change the situation.

So much salt and hyperbole on the forums, I’m actually looking forward to more ascended gear, and a part of me even wants more tiers after that, just to watch the forums lose their mind.

Hawkian.6580:

So I’ll just reiterate my position simply. You say:

eventually you will no longer be able to play the game if you don’t follow the power curve

This is a positive claim and demands evidence. You have provided none. Your rationale is filled with clauses like “it takes no argument to prove” but you cannot simply say this and have it translate into truth. Again, this is an argument from self-evidence and simply fallacious. Demonstrating that larger numbers are larger than smaller ones (a proposition that I agree requires no further proof) really does not further your claim as much as you appear to think it does.

I shall explain as I posted in another thread.

• Will there be new tiers of gear after Ascended? Probably not.
  But they aren’t saying that it absolutely will not happen because in future expansions they expect to raise the level cap passed 80.

• Are there going to be increased stats on gear? Yes.
  The reason that there isn’t an intention of new tiers of gear passed Ascended is because they intend to continue upgrading the power of Ascended. Their ‘low’ power curve. The player has to update their Ascended gear through infusions or whatever else in order to become more powerful. AKA a gear grind just without a new tier of gear. But because there is no new tier of gear they are claiming there isn’t a gear grind.

I’ll use an example to further explain:

cesmode.4257:

jweez.7214:

Colin Johnson plans for this to be the last tier of gear. Exotic was just to easy to ascertain and anet had collectively come to the decision to try at it again. Googling quotes doesn’t help your cause. We all know what they said and they know what they said.

If exotics were too easy to acquire, why not focus on that then? Work the problem. Dont come up with a solution you know will enrage lots of players. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see a few steps down the road with this one.

Work the problem, dont change the situation.

I assume that is what the karma nerf is partly about. Limiting people’s ability to store up karma for Orr temple exotics.

Irrodesia.3907:

Hawkian.6580:

So I’ll just reiterate my position simply. You say:

eventually you will no longer be able to play the game if you don’t follow the power curve

This is a positive claim and demands evidence. You have provided none. Your rationale is filled with clauses like “it takes no argument to prove” but you cannot simply say this and have it translate into truth. Again, this is an argument from self-evidence and simply fallacious. Demonstrating that larger numbers are larger than smaller ones (a proposition that I agree requires no further proof) really does not further your claim as much as you appear to think it does.

I shall explain as I posted in another thread.

• Will there be new tiers of gear after Ascended? Probably not.
  But they aren’t saying that it absolutely will not happen because in future expansions they expect to raise the level cap passed 80.

• Are there going to be increased stats on gear? Yes.
  The reason that there isn’t an intention of new tiers of gear passed Ascended is because they intend to continue upgrading the power of Ascended. Their ‘low’ power curve. The player has to update their Ascended gear through infusions or whatever else in order to become more powerful. AKA a gear grind just without a new tier of gear. But because there is no new tier of gear they are claiming there isn’t a gear grind.

I’ll use an example to further explain:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

• Player A is wearing Basic(white) quality gear.
• Player B is wearing Fine(blue) quality gear.
• Player C is wearing Masterwork(green) quality gear.
• Player D is wearing Rare(gold) quality gear.
• Player E is wearing Exotic(orange) quality gear.
• Player F is wearing Ascended(pink) quality gear.

All players are max level (level 80).

The six different types of quality gear are all level 80 requirement (max gear, just not stat wise).

Basic through Exotic gear [i]do not[i] experience a stat changes at all, nor will they ever. Period.

Ascended gear though, does experience an increase in stat changes over time. Let us say, twice a year, so once every six months.

Prior to the stat changes on Ascended, there is a 10% difference in relative stats between each tier(Ex: Basic>Fine. Masterwork>Rare. etc. etc.). As it stands prior to stat changes on Ascended, there apparently isn’t that big of a deal if you are running around in any lower quality gear compared to that of Exotic or Ascended.

Now enter the slow, yet steady, power increase to Ascended over time.

With the first upgrade already it will be 20% ahead of Exotic. By the end of the first year of stat increases it will be at a 30% stat increase from Exotic, which makes the stat difference with Rare quality gear and below much more dramatic.

As players increase the stats of their Ascended gear the gap between it and any of the lower tiers continues to grow, up until the team at ArenaNet feels it has increased in power enough.

It would be silly to think that the increase in stats is just to say you have an increase in stats, so it reflects that there is harder content to go up against. Otherwise what is the point of increasing the stats?

At this point one can’t say that it doesn’t matter if a player runs around in Exotic, Rare, Masterwork, Fine or Basic gear.

Now add the expectations of raising the level cap by, let’s say three, each expansion. And let us say that there is only two expansions that will ever be released.

During each expansion there will never be a new tier of gear. It will always stay as it was with Basic>Fine>Masterwork>Rare>Exotic>Ascended. But Ascended is still gradually adding stats.

Player A, B, C, D and E didn’t upgrade to Ascended because it wasn’t required. Because like everyone keeps saying, that stat difference didn’t matter.

At level 86 (Max level now, with both the only expansions to come out) they are farrrrr behind compared to that of those who have updated Ascended gear. The Ascended gear has been made to adjust with that extra 6 levels to go in hand with the content.

That, is your evidence to the claim of:

eventually you will no longer be able to play the game if you don’t follow the power curve

I don’t think you will make any headway with @Hawkian. I certainly wasn’t able to. I don’t know what to do with a person who can who can look at a power curve that displays a positive relationship between power and time and then demands evidence that you must keep up with the power curve in order to play the game long term. All the evidence is right there in front of you. It is impossible to understand a positive relationship between power and time and not to understand that following the power curve is non-optional if you want to play the game over time. But, good luck with it.

Thrumdi.9216:

cesmode.4257:

jweez.7214:

Colin Johnson plans for this to be the last tier of gear. Exotic was just to easy to ascertain and anet had collectively come to the decision to try at it again. Googling quotes doesn’t help your cause. We all know what they said and they know what they said.

If exotics were too easy to acquire, why not focus on that then? Work the problem. Dont come up with a solution you know will enrage lots of players. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see a few steps down the road with this one.

Work the problem, dont change the situation.

I assume that is what the karma nerf is partly about. Limiting people’s ability to store up karma for Orr temple exotics.

Exotics are obsolete, so no, karma nerf is about – more grind.

Grind Wars 2.

Hawkian.6580:

In reading this, it’s clear that you haven’t provided any new information and have muddied your argument even further…

In discounting the presuppositions I derived from your claim, you end with “I make no presuppositions about content other than:” and then follow it with the tl:dr version of what I attempted to be specific about with regard to your claim that “the top of the curve will one day be the relative bottom.”

I thought my simple example of a game with very shallow and terminal vertical progression would communicate that I understand the concept of vertical progression perfectly well, and I was simply distinguishing it from the related but distinct concepts of power creep and gear treadmills; you have merely suggested I google it. Indeed, you link me to a Penny Arcade episode specifically about power creep and a taugrim article describing “vertical scaling” solely as it relates to tiers of gear. There is no difference in definition between my understanding of vertical progression and theirs; you are merely attempting to conflate related but separate ideas into one.

With the clear inability for us to find common ground on this relatively mundane concept in mind, I’m happy to concede for the purposes of this argument that you’re a more serious gamer than me and know more about what simple and basic concepts like vertical progression are. That’s fine; I don’t need to convince you I’m more knowledgeable than you are to rebut your initial assertion.

So I’ll just reiterate my position simply. You say:

eventually you will no longer be able to play the game if you don’t follow the power curve

This is a positive claim and demands evidence. You have provided none. Your rationale is filled with clauses like “it takes no argument to prove” but you cannot simply say this and have it translate into truth. Again, this is an argument from self-evidence and simply fallacious. Demonstrating that larger numbers are larger than smaller ones (a proposition that I agree requires no further proof) really does not further your claim as much as you appear to think it does.

I take no issue with the way you’ve defined self-evident. It’s certainly accurate that you are attempting to argue without proof or reasoning. But the fact that something seems obvious to you does not make it correct; in fact, if the only line of argument you’re relying on is that it seems obvious to you, it’s a good idea for anyone you are making the statement to not to accept your claims. I certainly see no reason whatsoever thus far to describe the acquisition of best-in-slot gear in Guild Wars 2 as non-optional.

On a tangential note I think you may be a little confused with the term “prima facie.” The term res ipsa loquitur is closer to what you’re getting at.

I suppose if I were dealing with a child I would first define VP as a method of progression scaling where the scaling was vertical through increases in the power level of the game over time. It has nothing to do with tiers of gear, per se, simply increases in the power level of the game.

Once the definition was understood I would illustrate the non-optionality of following the power curve by describing two players, one who followed the power curve grinding out each increase in power and one who optionally chose not to.

If the curve was low the two players wouldn’t notice much at first. Let say initially it’s +10 just meaning that it has increased over time according to it’s definition. If we check in with them somewhere down the curve, the power difference is now +100. They both notice the difference now as we are talking about the power level of game after all. Mobs die much faster for the player that followed the power curve and players die much faster in WvW. At some point whether it is +10 or +100 or +1000, it doesn’t really matter, the difference will be such that a player not following the power curve will not be able to play the game. He will be like a level 60 character running around in Orr.

That, at any rate, is how I would describe it to a child. Of course, all you really need to understand is a curve where the ‘Y’ axis is power and the ‘X’ axis is time. The power increases over time. If enough time passes, the power increase will be material such that anyone not ascending the curve will notice it as problematic. But, I wouldn’t expect a child to understand the implications of the graph.

Gems for gold. The root of all unsatisfactory grind in this game. Some of us were there warning you from the beginning.

Sorry we weren’t wrong.

Irrodesia, I want to thank you for providing some supporting evidence based on dev comments for how continuous vertical progression that became non-optional might be added to the game despite there being no more tiers. Despite a lot of speculation still being involved I really appreciate the concrete example of how a player might get left behind (hinging on the gradual adding of stats through infusions and then making tougher content that requires it).

That definitely sounds annoying to me, and I especially really don’t want the game’s level cap to increase… I hope against hope that they change their minds about ever doing that, attractive as a player goal it might be for them to set.

While the scenario you paint is dire, there are a few things that jump out to me quizzically. You state that there’s a 10% difference in relative stats each tier; then say that after the first upgrade it’d be a 20% increase over exotic, 30% after the second. So in your theoretical the stat additions to existing Ascended gear are statistically equivalent to adding a new entire tier of gear each time. Is that correct? If I’m not misinterpreting you, I wonder if you consider it unreasonable to speculate that such increases would be nowhere near that amount, especially if occuring in all-at-once batches at 6-month intervals as you suggest? That is to say, aren’t you assuming that the difference is going from 10% to 20% when it might just as well be going from 10% to 13%? Or to 11%? I do take your point of course: assuming the difference was as big as you claim and new or existing content was matched to that level (rather than Rare gear as it is now), keeping up would absolutely not be optional.

I have to address, though, outside of misinterpreting what you meant by “relative” stats, a 10% difference between the gear tiers isn’t accurate. I know you may have been just simplifying for the example, but it’s an important distinction. Currently, for a full set of gear, the difference between Fine and Masterwork is 28% (notably adding two pieces that there are no Fine versions of), Masterwork and Rare 9%, Rare and Exotic 15%, and using a 105% increase per piece over Exotic, Exotic and Ascended 12%. It’s important to note that the curve is colored by these differences not being equal each jump, and most importantly, that Rare-to-Exotic is larger than Exotic-to-Ascended. Since no content in the game currently exists that cannot be completed with Rare gear*, this further clouds the idea that acquiring best-in-slot items will be required.

I also want to ensure I get the full scope of your hypothetical to be able to think about it fully. In your scenario where the level cap has been raised twice, is there a such thing as level 86 exotic gear? Or does Exotic gear past level 80 not exist?

Finally, I believe it really does all come down to this:

It would be silly to think that the increase in stats is just to say you have an increase in stats, so it reflects that there is harder content to go up against. Otherwise what is the point of increasing the stats?

This “plainly obvious” presupposition is I think where you and others are arguing a point I can’t adequately rebut. Were it the case that new content required Ascended gear to complete*, then I would have no recourse by which to argue that obtaining it was optional. As of yet, there’s simply nothing to indicate this will become true, but we will of course see what happens. I will say, gladly, that if this does occur (and Ascended gear has not become trivial to acquire for even casual players at this time), I will leave the game behind as the concept of gear being “more important” in this game doesn’t really interest me at all, and thus I don’t care how long getting Ascended pieces for all my characters will take, etc…

But when you ask “what is the point?”- the point has been obvious to me since Ascended gear was first introducted in November. It’s to cater to a very specific type of player that plays a lot, and apparently enjoys Guild Wars 2 possibly more than expected- people that absolutely need to have the statistically best items and feel as though they have nothing to do if they aren’t working toward better ones, sometimes even going so far as to claim the game lacks an “endgame” because it has no gear progression. I know this is where our views of the game’s future irreconcilably diverge, but it’s actually pretty clear to me that “just to say you have an increase in stats” is almost wholly the point.

If in two years, content is put out that I can’t do with the gear my characters are currently wearing, then you’ll absolutely be right and I’ll be wrong, and very disappointed. But so far nothing has convinced me to take the doomsday approach.

*The exception of course being high-level fractals, again due solely to the need for Agony Resistance rather than the stat increase.

ANet is trying to make the game appeal to both those who want to pursue stat increases and those who don’t. Thus, Ascended represents a compromise between the desires of the two demographics.

• The stat increases are not that large
• Failure to gear up in Ascended does not preclude utilization of content (yet). AR is only “necessary” in higher-level iterations of one specific dungeon group; players can experience those dungeons at lower levels without it, so they only thing they’re missing out on is the “prestige” of running higher fractals (and maybe getting an oh-so-rare Fractal Weapon skin.
• Lip service has been given to the promise that the gear would be available to multiple play-styles (with the exception of rings, however, this initiative has not yet gotten off the ground)

Adding content that requires Ascended stats would destroy the compromise that ANet has tried so hard to adhere to.

However, unless ANet steps up its game by providing a constant infusion of horizontal progression (skins, the hinted-at skill hunting, etc.), Ascended will only have postponed the problem. If they don’t, the “pursuit” players (well, those who haven’t migrated to another, grass-is-always-greener game) will at some point get their last Ascended piece, and the next day will asking for something else to pursue. That might be a worst case scenario, but it would be foolish to say it won’t happen.

Irrodesia.3907:

• Are there going to be increased stats on gear? Yes.
  The reason that there isn’t an intention of new tiers of gear passed Ascended is because they intend to continue upgrading the power of Ascended. Their ‘low’ power curve. The player has to update their Ascended gear through infusions or whatever else in order to become more powerful. AKA a gear grind just without a new tier of gear. But because there is no new tier of gear they are claiming there isn’t a gear grind.

Citation needed. That is a bold claim that you need to back up with Developer statements. If you are going to claim something as a fact, you better have facts to actually prove it.

At this point, it is a very safe assumption that you are just speculating, and nothing else. Didn’t bother reading the rest of your post, because obviously it would all be based on your speculation.

eisberg.2379:

Irrodesia.3907:

• Are there going to be increased stats on gear? Yes.
  The reason that there isn’t an intention of new tiers of gear passed Ascended is because they intend to continue upgrading the power of Ascended. Their ‘low’ power curve. The player has to update their Ascended gear through infusions or whatever else in order to become more powerful. AKA a gear grind just without a new tier of gear. But because there is no new tier of gear they are claiming there isn’t a gear grind.

Citation needed. That is a bold claim that you need to back up with Developer statements. If you are going to claim something as a fact, you better have facts to actually prove it.

At this point, it is a very safe assumption that you are just speculating, and nothing else. Didn’t bother reading the rest of your post, because obviously it would all be based on your speculation.

Reddit AMA they had.

What bothers me is the excecution of, it not the gear itself.

There’s alot of things that prevent people from getting the gear, and they’re not laziness things. These are legitimate play styles and preferences. Preferences Anet should be catering to if they want to pull something like that. Not everyone enjoys crafting. 1% drop rate is anything but a reliable source for anything. People aren’t always going to get to the Zerg in time, especially when there’s 20 people already melting the target. People aren’t always going to get to the lord’s room in WvW, especially if they were miles away trebbing. And not everyone has the gold and Obby shards to toss around for Ascended mats. More than that, if you decide not to do crafting, you have two choices – destroy the stacks or enjoy having your inventory stupidly full of things you can’t even use.

Corvindi.5734:

Gems for gold. The root of all unsatisfactory grind in this game. Some of us were there warning you from the beginning.

Sorry we weren’t wrong.

QFT. Quite correct, sir. Everything has come to revolve around it and will only become increasingly so as it has.

And the way it stands now, it’s absolutely endless this treadmill is. Completely unreachable with what has been added and what they plan to do. With the supposed focus on content, over the past year I came up with eight classes averaging two sets of exotic armor, half in transmuted cultural, 80% transmuted armor and weapons, three sets of weapons avg, half with two sets of trinkets while still working on getting them all ascended trinkets, and two commander tags. Why? so as actual playable content is released, I can do better than bring a knife to a gunfight.

Easily, if I had focused on one character/class alone, I could have bought most of the mats for a full set of ascended (weapons, trinkets and armor) as well as produced one or two legendary weapons. But now to outfit all my characters to the new tier, and considering I haven’t even finished the added trinket tier yet, well… I don’t see myself sticking around the next 5 or 10 years to do it now, especially with the lack of focus on actual content. I just don’t consider herding the masses of zerg farmers around from place to place every month for mats, and gold to buy mats, as actual content. And though I’ve bought gems with gold and some real money, the real money stops since obvious the bar has been raised so high it would take wheelbarrows full of cash to ever catch up and update all my characters to the current tier.

I’m obviously not the type of customer they want. One that spends a little money ave $10 a month and enjoys to play expanded content. They want players that are going to start a new account, spellbound by a new game to play, start dropping truckloads of money into the gem store to catch up, start a gambling addiction, then finally burn out – quit – and make way for the next new player account.

jweez.7214:

Colin Johnson plans for this to be the last tier of gear. Exotic was just to easy to ascertain and anet had collectively come to the decision to try akittenagain. Googling quotes doesn’t help your cause. We all know what they said and they know what they said.

Exotic being too “easy” is just a cop-out. They planned this all along. They need to explain to the fans why they changed their game design abruptly.

Pray For Kosmos.5849:

jweez.7214:

Colin Johnson plans for this to be the last tier of gear. Exotic was just to easy to ascertain and anet had collectively come to the decision to try akittenagain. Googling quotes doesn’t help your cause. We all know what they said and they know what they said.

Exotic being too “easy” is just a cop-out. They planned this all along. They need to explain to the fans why they changed their game design abruptly.

I could probably agree with that. At least they left the door open for it, to see which business model gets them the quicker money. It’s always been there, because they did it with legendary weapons to start and still 90% of my guild is more about grinding that out rather than doing stuff with one another. Then added ascended trinkets for more grind, seeing if players will do it.

Since enough players focused in on grinding, it’s worked out for them. For those doing the single character grind, yes exotics were very easy, while legendary weapons provided the never-ending grind for them. For the rest of us with no real proclaimed “main” and gearing multiple characters, as well as with each having stat, sigil and rune choices per character, the exotic tier was far from easy. Now where is the new content? Oh we re-gear for it now, grind it out again, for content someday, and play temporary content that needs gems to buy a continue token in the meantime.

Hrithmus.2583:

Below is her statement on how they wanted to make a “Sense of Satisfying Progression” rather then “gear grind”.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/

“We have always worked hard to create a sense of satisfying progression rather than gear grind

Sorry Linsey, you failed. Satisfying progression would involve a hard series of quests rather than the material grind you’ve implemented.

cesmode.4257:

jweez.7214:

Colin Johnson plans for this to be the last tier of gear. Exotic was just to easy to ascertain and anet had collectively come to the decision to try at it again. Googling quotes doesn’t help your cause. We all know what they said and they know what they said.

If exotics were too easy to acquire, why not focus on that then? Work the problem. Dont come up with a solution you know will enrage lots of players. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see a few steps down the road with this one.

Work the problem, dont change the situation.

I don’t believe exotics were ever the problem. Colin was either mistaken or being disingenuous. The quotes from the AMA show that the issue is the gap between exotics and legendaries.

morrolan.9608:

cesmode.4257:

jweez.7214:

Colin Johnson plans for this to be the last tier of gear. Exotic was just to easy to ascertain and anet had collectively come to the decision to try at it again. Googling quotes doesn’t help your cause. We all know what they said and they know what they said.

If exotics were too easy to acquire, why not focus on that then? Work the problem. Dont come up with a solution you know will enrage lots of players. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see a few steps down the road with this one.

Work the problem, dont change the situation.

I don’t believe exotics were ever the problem. Colin was either mistaken or being disingenuous. The quotes from the AMA show that the issue is the gap between exotics and legendaries.

That’s interesting. Why would the gap matter between stat gear and cosmetic gear?

Only because not enough people grinding for that cosmetic gear, I assume.

Then why didn’t they add Ascended as cosmetic gear to give people a lower bar to shoot for?

We’ll never know, but I assume they panicked and lost faith in their original vision of the game.

Thrumdi.9216:

We’ll never know, but I assume they panicked and lost faith in their original vision of the game.

I would say undoubtedly this is what happened. But I’ve also said before in other threads since November the fortnightly content updates have started. So why do we need the ascended weapon grind and presumably the ascended armor grind to keep us playing now?

Maybe they have metrics showing the player base was declining again but if so I would say thats more to do with the quality of the living world updates.

So a company that said literally thousands of things before launch can be called on five of them. Some would call that a pretty good percentage.

Others would say that people are being too judgmental and focusing on the negative because it doesn’t fit their idea of what should have been done.

I think Anet, over all, have gotten it right. I think they got the ascended gear wrong, but not wrong enough for me to dig out two, three year old quotes and try to hold them accountable.

Bringing out those quotes won’t stop ascended gear. But it will derail the issue against vertical progression, because reasonable people will look at what you’re saying and remember the time they said something that didn’t work out the way they wanted it to.

If you’re against ascended gear, talk about that, not something that was said 3 years ago.

Or someone else will just bring up the quote about iteration and how Anet has said publicly in the blog post how they try things and if they don’t work, they’ll change them, even complete systems if they have to.

Vayne.8563:

So a company that said literally thousands of things before launch can be called on five of them. Some would call that a pretty good percentage.

Others would say that people are being too judgmental and focusing on the negative because it doesn’t fit their idea of what should have been done.

I think Anet, over all, have gotten it right. I think they got the ascended gear wrong, but not wrong enough for me to dig out two, three year old quotes and try to hold them accountable.

Bringing out those quotes won’t stop ascended gear. But it will derail the issue against vertical progression, because reasonable people will look at what you’re saying and remember the time they said something that didn’t work out the way they wanted it to.

If you’re against ascended gear, talk about that, not something that was said 3 years ago.

Or someone else will just bring up the quote about iteration and how Anet has said publicly in the blog post how they try things and if they don’t work, they’ll change them, even complete systems if they have to.

But when those 5 things are the core of the game, we are talking about a central issue.

It’s like a used car salesman promises you your car has an engine, among other parts. But when it’s delivered, it’s only empty under the hood.

You ask him, hey, where’s that engine you promised me? And he says to you: I also told you it had power windows, A/C, dual airbags, satellite radio and a sun roof. Why are you calling me on that one little thing? Aren’t you being unreasonable?

Vayne just keep in mind. Iteration is a development strategy. Its a way to produce something BEFORE it hits the market.

Basicly saying they get a pass because they used the term iteration means you would give them a pass if they turned GW2 into a tetris style game where you earn tiles by defeating PvE mobs.

An MMO evolves but the core on release should stay as the core. Other games that have changed that core… failed… HARD. SWG being the biggest example of that.

Vayne.8563:

So a company that said literally thousands of things before launch can be called on five of them.

You keep trotting some iteration of that phrase out, Vayne, and you keep missing the point: one of the key concepts the game was marketed on was the idea of horizontal progression, without gear grind. They said it over and over again. And then they trashed the idea.

If I had known the game would turn into a “gear grind, chase the shinies so you can chase more shinies” game, I would not have bought it.

Thrumdi.9216:

Vayne.8563:

So a company that said literally thousands of things before launch can be called on five of them. Some would call that a pretty good percentage.

Others would say that people are being too judgmental and focusing on the negative because it doesn’t fit their idea of what should have been done.

I think Anet, over all, have gotten it right. I think they got the ascended gear wrong, but not wrong enough for me to dig out two, three year old quotes and try to hold them accountable.

Bringing out those quotes won’t stop ascended gear. But it will derail the issue against vertical progression, because reasonable people will look at what you’re saying and remember the time they said something that didn’t work out the way they wanted it to.

If you’re against ascended gear, talk about that, not something that was said 3 years ago.

Or someone else will just bring up the quote about iteration and how Anet has said publicly in the blog post how they try things and if they don’t work, they’ll change them, even complete systems if they have to.

But when those 5 things are the core of the game, we are talking about a central issue.

It’s like a used car salesman promises you your car has an engine, among other parts. But when it’s delivered, it’s only empty under the hood.

You ask him, hey, where’s that engine you promised me? And he says to you: I also told you it had power windows, A/C, dual airbags, satellite radio and a sun roof. Why are you calling me on that one little thing? Aren’t you being unreasonable?

What five things are the core of the game. One of the things was dyes being account bound instead of soul bound (but they changed other things at the time as well).

Maybe two could be said to have changed, but they’re actually related. And seen by the core of the game by whom? I didn’t see them as the core of the game. I saw the living world as the core of the game.

Most people who play the game aren’t even aware of the concept, in my opinion.

Spiral Architect.6540:

Vayne.8563:

So a company that said literally thousands of things before launch can be called on five of them.

You keep trotting some iteration of that phrase out, Vayne, and you keep missing the point: one of the key concepts the game was marketed on was the idea of horizontal progression, without gear grind. They said it over and over again. And then they trashed the idea.

If I had known the game would turn into a “gear grind, chase the shinies so you can chase more shinies” game, I would not have bought it.

No, I don’t think it was one of the key concepts the game was marketed on. In fact in thousands of videos it was mentioned a handful of times.

Dynamic events are what this game was marketed on. Personal story was what this game was marketed on. Vertical progression quotes are few and far between in comparison. They are important to you, personally, so you latched onto those few mentions but this isn’t big big new. People trot out the same three quotes. In five years of marketing, a handful of quotes doesn’t make what this game was marketed on.

Iteration, on the other hand, was mentioned in post after post, after post. Go back through the old blog posts and see how often iteration and iterative process was mentioned, and even an entire blogpost was devoted to it. It was in virtually every post by arena net for over a year.

Actually I don’t understand you, why don’t you want new tiers ? Why will you play this game after completing a full ascended set ? A new goal always keeps players playing.
There’s not many goals in this game to achieve, and feed a player’s ego. Yes we have a rank system in wvw and pvp, but who knows and sees your rank ? So there should be some competitive and effort-requiring goals to get into the front of other players. This is why I always support new goals, rank systems, and better items. Don’t forget this is an mmorpg, not a pointless fps or moba game. If you can’t find a goal to achieve in the game, you get easily bored.

Vayne.8563:

Spiral Architect.6540:

Vayne.8563:

So a company that said literally thousands of things before launch can be called on five of them.

You keep trotting some iteration of that phrase out, Vayne, and you keep missing the point: one of the key concepts the game was marketed on was the idea of horizontal progression, without gear grind. They said it over and over again. And then they trashed the idea.

If I had known the game would turn into a “gear grind, chase the shinies so you can chase more shinies” game, I would not have bought it.

No, I don’t think it was one of the key concepts the game was marketed on. In fact in thousands of videos it was mentioned a handful of times.

Dynamic events are what this game was marketed on. Personal story was what this game was marketed on. Vertical progression quotes are few and far between in comparison. They are important to you, personally, so you latched onto those few mentions but this isn’t big big new. People trot out the same three quotes. In five years of marketing, a handful of quotes doesn’t make what this game was marketed on.

Iteration, on the other hand, was mentioned in post after post, after post. Go back through the old blog posts and see how often iteration and iterative process was mentioned, and even an entire blogpost was devoted to it. It was in virtually every post by arena net for over a year.

No, it was clear throughout the pre-launch marketing period there would be no end-game grind. (To the point where people were even complaining about that before the game even shipped).

They even had a TM’d slogan for it: Play Your Way.

Umut.5471:

Actually I don’t understand you, why don’t you want new tiers ? Why will you play this game after completing a full ascended set ? A new goal always keeps players playing.
There’s not many goals in this game to achieve, and feed a player’s ego. Yes we have a rank system in wvw and pvp, but who knows and sees your rank ? So there should be some competitive and effort-requiring goals to get into the front of other players. This is why I always support new goals, rank systems, and better items. Don’t forget this is an mmorpg, not a pointless fps or moba game. If you can’t find a goal in the game, you get easily bored.

Because we want GW2 to be different? As it was supposed to? Even then, that’s not actually good for GW2. Why would anyone play another WoW clone when you have WoW itself + a dozen other games that do the same thing? You can’t market yourself if you have to offer nothing but the same things everyone else has. Noones going to buy your product if they can buy it from six other brands.

Vayne.8563:

Spiral Architect.6540:

Vayne.8563:

So a company that said literally thousands of things before launch can be called on five of them.

You keep trotting some iteration of that phrase out, Vayne, and you keep missing the point: one of the key concepts the game was marketed on was the idea of horizontal progression, without gear grind. They said it over and over again. And then they trashed the idea.

If I had known the game would turn into a “gear grind, chase the shinies so you can chase more shinies” game, I would not have bought it.

No, I don’t think it was one of the key concepts the game was marketed on. In fact in thousands of videos it was mentioned a handful of times.

Dynamic events are what this game was marketed on. Personal story was what this game was marketed on. Vertical progression quotes are few and far between in comparison. They are important to you, personally, so you latched onto those few mentions but this isn’t big big new. People trot out the same three quotes. In five years of marketing, a handful of quotes doesn’t make what this game was marketed on.

Iteration, on the other hand, was mentioned in post after post, after post. Go back through the old blog posts and see how often iteration and iterative process was mentioned, and even an entire blogpost was devoted to it. It was in virtually every post by arena net for over a year.

Well, Dude, I’m not going to argue with you anymore. The game you played is clearly not the same one I played. The PR you read and watched wasn’t the same PR I read and watched. I doubt you’ll ever be willing to see anyone else’s viewpoint on this issue, so I’m going to quit trying. Good luck to you.

morrolan.9608:

cesmode.4257:

jweez.7214:

Colin Johnson plans for this to be the last tier of gear. Exotic was just to easy to ascertain and anet had collectively come to the decision to try at it again. Googling quotes doesn’t help your cause. We all know what they said and they know what they said.

If exotics were too easy to acquire, why not focus on that then? Work the problem. Dont come up with a solution you know will enrage lots of players. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see a few steps down the road with this one.

Work the problem, dont change the situation.

I don’t believe exotics were ever the problem. Colin was either mistaken or being disingenuous. The quotes from the AMA show that the issue is the gap between exotics and legendaries.

The only gap that existed between exotic and legendary was one of time involved to get them as there was no statistical difference. However now of course there is a statistical gap between exotic and legendary with the introduction of Ascended tier. So basically the only reason Ascended was added to the game was to give people a shallow vertical gear progression in terms of statistical advantage. If Anet had stuck to their guns and introduced a horizontal character progression that was more than just cosmetic ie evolving weapon skills, replaceable class traits and added these things through a series of adventures as opposed to simple grind there would have been more than enough character “progression”. Sadly Anet has taken the easy way out to appeal to the indoctrinated vp masses.

I sincerely hope that some game developers from outside of ANet are reading these threads.

The way I see it, Ascended tier items aren’t the problem itself, as the statistical boosts they provide over existing gear isn’t required for content. Rather, I think the issue is:

“Ascended items are the start of the slippery slope for new tiers of gears to be introduced to GW2.”

I always have this skepticism about any MMO I play, but before I am convinced that this will be the case, I always consider the following factors:

1) Is there good reason to believe that new tiers will be added?
2) How much content is gated from me if I do not have those equipment?
3) Is it the only type of character progression in the game?

It’s easy to draw parallels to GW1, but there is a context that is missing. GW1 had a very solid form of horizontal progression available via it’s deck-building system. This is entirely missing in GW2.

For GW2 to stop vertical progression entirely, there must be some form of horizontal progression in place. Otherwise we end up with players having max stats but no other meaningful way to progress their characters.

This could possibly entail things like new weapon types/skills/traits, obtained through killing specific mobs, RNG drops, attaining Achievement Point milestones etc.

But for new weapons/skills/traits to have some meaning in the current game, we need to first remove the obsession with damage. As it stands, DPS is still king for a large portion of content in GW2, which leads to our obsession with statistical increase.

Moving forward, there will be a few things about GW2 that I will be looking out for to see if Anet can address the gear threadmill issue:

1) Is the game moving away from stats-oriented encounters? Or will they design encounters where statistical increase provides little advantage? Consider SAB and jumping puzzles.

2) Is the horizontal progression in the game gaining traction? Are there ways to continually tinker our existing builds and improve synergy, or are we just going to have to do with a final build where the only improvements come from better gear?

I think we have come to a point where talking about gear threadmills and broken promises have little value. Ascended tiers are already in. What’s there to talk about?

I’d rather think about clever things the devs can put in that can take the focus away from statistical increase, so that we have little use for further tiers of gears.

Namu.5712:

not sure how one set of gear constitutes an “endless gear treadmill” lol.

Do you guys even know what endless means? How about treadmill?

Hear hear.

Have gw1 fans forgotten the name of the fancy versions of armor you got on prophecies? does ‘ascended’ armor ring a bell?

exotic was designed to do a job – make top tier something that required effort so that people can actually appreciate what they have. it failed. so they had to bring in ascended to do that job. (would you salvage an ascended weapon? in comparison, would you salvage an exotic? and why?)

edit: and have we forgotten the point of why skill point scrolls exist? are we going to cry and whine when they introduce new skills into the game that seem better than the current meta? of course we will.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

The only gap that existed between exotic and legendary was one of time involved to get them as there was no statistical difference.

Yes thats the gap I think they meant because they were talking about how to occupy a players time and keep them in the game.

Draknar.5748:

Bread.7516:

this…seriously…this.

and when ascended armor comes out, ascended WILL be the gear check in the future. (the total difference is huge)

Uhm, what gear check are you talking about? I’ve run PUGs in almost every dungeon, and almost every path with full greens/yellows (on alts) and had no issues. Not once has anyone ever asked me to ping my gear running dungeons and I’ve yet to have our group fail on anything because of it. If I was looking to do FoTM 30+, sure I could see the gear check requirement, but the people that do FoTM 30+ are a very small minority of the playerbase.

Perhaps ascended gear will affect your elite speed dungeon run/high level FoTM groups, but I can tell you that 95% of the players will have no issue running every bit of content with the armor they can get now.

This isn’t WoW, there are no gear checks…only kittens gearcheck people in GW2 for anything that isn’t high level FoTM or dungeon speed runs, and if you’re the kind of person that farms dungeons and runs high level FoTM then odds are you are the same person that wants a gear treadmill anyway and are looking forward to the ascended tier. It will affect no one else.

1 piece of gear will make no difference what so ever. But if you match up 2 players of equal skill…

1 in full exotics

1 in full ascended

The player in full ascended gear will win because they have the most/best stats…I’m talking about a wvw scenario here.

In pve, who cares about the implementation of ascended gear. Noone, it’s a “goal” for pl to shoot for. It’s when you start to look at wvw and ascended vs exotics that things get mis matched.

So in the sense of fighting players of equal skill in wvw. Your are 100% required to have full ascended gear to be able to compete.