Guild Wars 2

By “density” I mean how many enemies are crammed into a small amount of space. Frankly, I’m weary of enemies being practically EVERYWHERE in these newest zones.

As background, I remember when I got closer and closer to Orr in the core game, and I noticed that not only were the enemies harder, but there were more of them. There were still SOME open spaces where it was safe to stop and admire the scenery, but definitely fewer.

I think Cursed Shore had it about just right when it came to enemy density. But then I got into Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, Tangled Depths, and it just seems ridiculous. I’m the type that likes to stop and admire the beauty of the game, and yet this seems too hard in the new zones because of how many enemies got crammed in. Even the Vista points are often surrounded by enemies, and you can’t view the vista because the game feels you are “in combat”

Just when I thought it couldn’t get worse, LS3 has added Bloodstone Fen, Ember Bay and Bitterfrost. Actually I feel Ember Bay is the least populated of these 3, but Bloodstone and Bitterfrost just seem almost unbearable. I have no desire to go there anymore for “fun exploring”. I’m not looking for zones where I’m constantly attacked, even if I just want to stand somewhere and admire the scenery. How many of us wanted to explore the giant trees in Bitterfrost and don’t want to now because of all the annoying enemies? Even “thematically” its all wrong. Run around Frostgorge for a while and then walk into Bitterfrost. Why the sudden change in enemy counts?

I say all of this because I am worried at what the future zones will look like. If ANET feels that enemy density is needed, who told them this? Were players calling for more enemies to fight? What about the next expansion? My fear is that it will be drop dead gorgeous, as usual, but with thousands of monsters unexplainably spaced 2 feet apart, which will suck all the fun out of it. It’s sad that for the fun of exploring I go back to Tyria these days

Anyway, thanks for letting me rant a little bit.

This doesn’t make sense to me. You chose Ember Bay out of all the options as an example of low mob density. Yet it’s clearly among the highest and, unlike the maps that came before it, the fact that it features hearts again means that those mobs don’t disappear when the event is completed as they do in the event-only maps.

Take a closer look and you will see that VB is actually pretty sparsely populated. Many of the mobs that are there 100% of the time are neutral (yellow tag) with only a few enemies here or there. It’s when the events spawn that the place is overrun with enemies.

Or perhaps it simply feels more dense because the mobs are more difficult (e.g. walking into a small space with 3 frog people to fight)? Ember Bay has very high mob density – nearly every major area is covered in Primordus’ minions – but they are (mostly) noticeably easier to defeat than previous maps.

Not low. Lower. Yes, where there are enemies in Ember Bay they are dense, but I’ve also found many places in EB where there are zero enemies. Maybe I’ve just missed those placed in VB (but then again I don’t count sitting on a giant root somewhere far from land). It seems the area immediately around a WP are the only safe areas usually, plus at night those camps are getting attacked.

I also concede that it might be that the difficulty of the enemies is affecting my judgment. It does seem easier to survive in EB, even in an “infested” area.

I agree that the mobs should be thinned out a lot just about everywhere, the respawns reduced or have a longer timer, and the aggro range shrunk down at least by 1/3.

I must agree with the fact that walking in bitterfrost is a real pain. Well, of course, we’re near Jormag, so there’re Svanir and icebroods everywhere. But you’re attacked at each step. And frozen. And elementals turn you into a frozen popsicle at 5000 range. And foes pop almost as soon as they’re dead ! Sure it’s no quiet place !

By the way, there’s a painful issue in bloodstone fen, near Hablion’s place. Ghosts pop and you can have like 10 ghosts at the same place pixelwise. I’m not sure it’s normal.

I’ve traversed the new maps in durable and glass characters and I haven’t found that it’s that hard to avoid mobs. On the other hand, I just had a more ‘interesting’ time capping a camp in WvW recently because a different player ran right through all the guards surrounding the camp rather than around it.

So I wonder if it’s more that some people have foe ‘nameplates’ turned off and don’t realize how close they are getting.

On the other hand, high-density means a lot more kills per minute, which means faster at finishing hearts (and gathering suet etc), not to mention more drops from foes.

tl;dr I’m not against reducing mob densities, I just don’t think there’s anything wrong with the current numbers.

traversing these new maps is really dependent on build and class.

You kinda have to post your build OP

loseridoit.2756:

traversing these new maps is really dependent on build and class.

You kinda have to post your build OP

Fair enough. My meat shields like Warrior and Necro don’t have as hard a time as the ones with so little health, like the Thief and Elementalist whom I just got to 80.

Its just that in the Tyria maps, even Orr, you could almost always find a path that would not aggro any mobs. But in HOT and especially these last areas that is just not the case, and when they inflict movement impairing conditions on you as you try to run past, or worse something like immobilize, it just feels like a programmer somewhere being a real jerk.

fourhim.3584:

loseridoit.2756:

traversing these new maps is really dependent on build and class.

You kinda have to post your build OP

Fair enough. My meat shields like Warrior and Necro don’t have as hard a time as the ones with so little health, like the Thief and Elementalist whom I just got to 80.

Its just that in the Tyria maps, even Orr, you could almost always find a path that would not aggro any mobs. But in HOT and especially these last areas that is just not the case, and when they inflict movement impairing conditions on you as you try to run past, or worse something like immobilize, it just feels like a programmer somewhere being a real jerk.

I can relate with the ele. I am trying dag/warhorn + lighting flash. It feels so squishy. I having a hard time due to lack of CC on my ele. I might end up going scepter/dagger on my ele at this rate

Dragonhunter or Mesmer can run away pretty easy.

I dont know about the thief

What’s funny is they merged mob density already, and squishy classes can easily navigate without aggroing or killing all mobs easily, I main a thief and both of them I was able to clear everything easily and most champ hero points solo. It all comes down to the builds you choose.

@loseridiot

Depending on thief build its quite easy, either Condi D/D with SB running Acro/Tr/DrD or Acro/Da/Tr. or running. Power Staff using Acro/Tri/DrD and so on or you can run D/P for stealthing through everything.

Is it really so hard to understand the concept of endgame zones? Its supposed to be high level! Its supposed to be harder than running around on a farm outside DR!

But even so and even with the massive boost of elites and veterans in the instanced story mission, the new zone itself is… meh. I really dont see the difficulty. I can run in and farm berries in the forrest just fine without even attacking the mobs. Are the Svanir trickier? Sure they are. That massive attack killed me the first time as it completely caught me by surprise. But again… its a freaking endgame zone thats supposed to be hard.

Its not even going to be a challenge in a couple of months anyway, when people have adjusted. Hell I remember the first time I went into Arah. It was guild run and it took us 2 godkitten hours to give up and fail the path. Thats godkitten right. We failed it and I’m proud to say that. Nowadays a freaking thief can solo that kitten.

Dawdler.8521:

Is it really so hard to understand the concept of endgame zones? Its supposed to be high level! Its supposed to be harder than running around on a farm outside DR!

But even so and even with the massive boost of elites and veterans in the instanced story mission, the new zone itself is… meh. I really dont see the difficulty. I can run in and farm berries in the forrest just fine without even attacking the mobs. Are the Svanir trickier? Sure they are. That massive attack killed me the first time as it completely caught me by surprise. But again… its a freaking endgame zone thats supposed to be hard.

Its not even going to be a challenge in a couple of months anyway, when people have adjusted. Hell I remember the first time I went into Arah. It was guild run and it took us 2 godkitten hours to give up and fail the path. Thats godkitten right. We failed it and I’m proud to say that. Nowadays a freaking thief can solo that kitten.

You are right on this topic : it’s endgame zone. Or high level, whatever… But the map has got a big grind taste as well. So it leads to the current frustration : you want to grind but mobs are swarming so it makes the grind tedious. They’re indeed not so hard (some details like big storm put aside), you can manage them, so it doesn’t feel like they’re endgame content (like dungeons, bosses etc.).

I like the new maps, yet I feel like something needs more balance.

fourhim.3584:

loseridoit.2756:

traversing these new maps is really dependent on build and class.

You kinda have to post your build OP

Fair enough. My meat shields like Warrior and Necro don’t have as hard a time as the ones with so little health, like the Thief and Elementalist whom I just got to 80.

Its just that in the Tyria maps, even Orr, you could almost always find a path that would not aggro any mobs. But in HOT and especially these last areas that is just not the case, and when they inflict movement impairing conditions on you as you try to run past, or worse something like immobilize, it just feels like a programmer somewhere being a real jerk.

Try this build on your thief. I think you’ll find open world much easier.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAW6an8lCFOhFmCOOBkmiFqiaLHHsqrLBCgGYu67+yH-TxRBQBZU5XAV/Je6Guy+DP4iAAgnAgJVCSIABjBA-e

Endless dodge, auto-clear movement impairing effects on dodge, 1s cd condi clear on evade, short cd stun break plus passive stun break so you never get pinned down, nearly 20k health so you can actually take even a big hit from a boss, strong heals on offense, but your burst damage is still high enough to take out groups of enemies in no time. With this build your thief should be able to take on pretty much anything your necro can.

Just a quick note: Use shortbow instead of pistols for moving around. The pistols are for when you need to deal damage but can’t safely stay at melee range (great for soloing some of the more annoying champions out there).

I like mob density as it is, or higher. It is more of a challenge that way.

If you would rather traverse open world without getting into combat, maybe a no-aggro mount of some kind is more appropriate.

Some areas do seem a tad over-populated.

fourhim.3584:

Even “thematically” its all wrong. Run around Frostgorge for a while and then walk into Bitterfrost. Why the sudden change in enemy counts?

Thematically, as we advance deeper into enemy territory, it would make sense that there would be more enemies. The exception to this would be if they were massing for an attack on the front lines. However, that does not seem to be the case.

Boysenberry.1869:

Some areas do seem a tad over-populated.

That seems odd. Why are they all facing the same way? Looks suspicious.

Boysenberry.1869:

Some areas do seem a tad over-populated.

lol’d

The only problem I have with mob density is that in some areas I find it nearly impossible to just stop and admire that part of the map and the detail that went into it because I am endlessly drawing aggro from mobs. I find this usually happens in Orr and HoT maps. To fight the enemies, the density is fine.

Maybe I just happen to instinctively like the parts of the map that actually have enemies on them more than others IDK, but I frequently find several mushrooms/frogs chasing me in HoT maps when I am just trying to enjoy the scenery for a while.

Not sure how this could be fixed efficiently. If there was a simple OOC toggle that was intended to be used to admire the map, it would be abused by people I’m sure.

There’s way too many enemies in Bitterfrost and most of them aggro from at least twice as far as normal. They’re not even particularly dangerous for the most part, they’re just annoying.

It’s like pre-nerf Orr all over again, and just as tedious and un-fun to travel in.

I agree so so much. This has been one of my complaints since HoT came out. In Auric basin I cant even sit at a way point to go get something to drink without coming back dead (yes, without an event going on). I get that people want a map ‘challenging’ but you shouldnt be dying just because you had to do something in your real life for 30 seconds.

And for those of you saying “oh it depends on your class you have to use a certain build” open world pve is the last place people can play whatever build they gosh darn want and still do just as much content as everyone else and no one gets to tell them not to. open world pve should NOT be forcing us do ashere to a standard just to walk around. I should not need to make myself tankier or equip CC’s i do not want to use just to walk through the zone.

It’s not about dying. People immediately asume you die a lot if you complain about mobs. It’s about how annoying they are. Density wouldn’t be so bad if at least they wouldn’t spamm CC all the time. Respawn rates are just a freaking joke. I come to pick up some berries, so I kill the mobs guarding it, but immediately new ones spawn, Fine, I kill it, immediately new one spawns. It’s like they are trolling you, it’s like they are hiding and watching when you’ll appear, start picking and then they jump you, not to kill you, but to annoy you. Yes, I can run away, but I like to kill them, I have no problem with that, it feels more… well lets go with immersive. But when they keep respawning it just gets silly and annoying. If you stop and fight you’ll have so much chill on you, you can go make coffee before it wears down. If you use cond remove you’ll get chilled immediately after. And don’t forget about silly aggro and mob AI is seriously broken here.
It really feels like AN made bitterfrost just for berries, run and gather, run and gather. I can’t imagine why anyone would do anything else in this map, it’s not fun no matter how much you like killing stuff.
Is that really the best you can come up for the challenge?

Maybe I’m weird, but I love high density mob areas. I am a total sucker for big mob groups—if I see a group of 6+ mobs ambling around together, or better yet several groups of 6+ mobs within agro range of each other, I will do my best to pull as many mobs together as I possibly can and try to take them all on at once. It ends with my death sometimes, but other times I walk away with a nicely filled up inventory full of delicious blues and greens which my Salvage-O-Matic happily chews on while I’m running off to the next mob group.

I’m pretty sure I annoy my guildies by doing this sometimes, especially if we’re actively trying to accomplish something. I can’t help myself!

tl;dr: please don’t lower enemy density.

The general gist seems to be you want to farm the berries without all those mobs slowing and killing you?
My answer to that is simple, just kill the mobs then harvest the berries.
Also stop soloing everything if you can’t solo, run with other people on the map or with a guild or something.
tl;dr – dead mobs can’t annoy you.

General Health.9678:

The general gist seems to be you want to farm the berries without all those mobs slowing and killing you?
My answer to that is simple, just kill the mobs then harvest the berries.
Also stop soloing everything if you can’t solo, run with other people on the map or with a guild or something.
tl;dr – dead mobs can’t annoy you.

you should not need to form a group to farm berries.

General Health.9678:

The general gist seems to be you want to farm the berries without all those mobs slowing and killing you?
My answer to that is simple, just kill the mobs then harvest the berries.
Also stop soloing everything if you can’t solo, run with other people on the map or with a guild or something.
tl;dr – dead mobs can’t annoy you.

Good job on making your own special conclusion to your liking so you can “prove” you point.

I don’t mind the mob density so much; what peeves me – as in, makes it somewhat tedious for me – is that it feels like every. single. mob. in Bitterfrost CC-spams me with chill. The entire west side of the map is just one big chill-fest. Add to that the fact that some of these mobs behave like the 5000-range-heatseeking-missile-Knights from Bloodstone Fen before Anet reduced their range, AND add players who intentionally try to use other players to catch their tail of mobs as they sprint from berry bush to berry bush.

I love the new map. At this point, I’m all jungle’d out. The Shiverpeaks are my favourite area in the whole game, and Bitterfrost is gorgeous, imho. But I seriously could have done without the CC spam and the headless-chicken-mobs that run away even when I don’t use any kind of AOE.

The easy solution to the mob density is killing the mobs. But for some reason at the Bitterfrost Frontier nobody kills any mobs they just run around like headless chickens.

Is it truly that difficult to farm berries, though? I’ve farmed berries in Bitterfrost on mesmer, guard, thief, and ranger. Yes, the chill can be annoying, but it isn’t a stopping point. Either avoid the mobs as best you can, harvest, and run off to the next set of berry bushes, or kill the mobs as you go and harvest after they’re dead.

And you don’t need to “form a group” to gather here. There are almost always enough players running around farming berries at any given time that you can tag along with one of them and help each other out as you spend the 10 minutes it requires to farm most of the berries in the western part of the map.

Then again, if you’re running around with a character equipped in blues and greens or a non-80 character, I suppose you’re gonna have a bad time.

drunkenpilot.9837:

Is it truly that difficult to farm berries, though? I’ve farmed berries in Bitterfrost on mesmer, guard, thief, and ranger. Yes, the chill can be annoying, but it isn’t a stopping point. Either avoid the mobs as best you can, harvest, and run off to the next set of berry bushes, or kill the mobs as you go and harvest after they’re dead.

And you don’t need to “form a group” to gather here. There are almost always enough players running around farming berries at any given time that you can tag along with one of them and help each other out as you spend the 10 minutes it requires to farm most of the berries in the western part of the map.

Then again, if you’re running around with a character equipped in blues and greens or a non-80 character, I suppose you’re gonna have a bad time.

You’re missing the point. People only mention berries because let’s face it, that’s pretty much the only thing to “do” in this map, beside map exploration. Also, I find this logic amusing “It’s doable, so no need to complain”. People keep repeating same things. Do you guys even read posts? It’s silly to get into a discussion if it’s one sided. It’s not about dying or being unable to farm berries. It’s about how annoying map in general. I’m pretty sure majority of people won’t be in a hurry to visit this map again anytime soon, once they are done with story/berries. It’s a shame resources and development time go for things that soon turn into desert.
I’m not saying no to a challenge, I welcome it gladly. But mobs farting CC on repeat while they have broken AI, messed up aggro, insane spawns and density it’s just silly and poor, lazy design.

serialkicker.5274:

You’re missing the point. People only mention berries because let’s face it, that’s pretty much the only thing to “do” in this map, beside map exploration. Also, I find this logic amusing “It’s doable, so no need to complain”. People keep repeating same things. Do you guys even read posts? It’s silly to get into a discussion if it’s one sided. It’s not about dying or being unable to farm berries. It’s about how annoying map in general. I’m pretty sure majority of people won’t be in a hurry to visit this map again anytime soon, once they are done with story/berries. It’s a shame resources and development time go for things that soon turn into desert.
I’m not saying no to a challenge, I welcome it gladly. But mobs farting CC on repeat while they have broken AI, messed up aggro, insane spawns and density it’s just silly and poor, lazy design.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I really enjoy the new map, I farm stuff there pretty often and I love the map design. I also don’t think the high level of CC (chill, mostly) is a bad thing. What other maps in the game have so many mobs that slam you with CC? Verdant Brink perhaps, in some areas, but for the most part this type of thing isn’t really found anywhere else in GW2 and I like the variety, even if it can be a bit annoying when you are trying to avoid combat.

I suppose I should accept that I’m in the minority here regarding Bitterfrost. I love the map, I love the huge swarms of enemies, and I’d love to see a few more maps in this style.

EDIT: For clarification, I feel I should mention that almost all core Tyria maps are exceedingly sparse with regard to mob density. We have had that side of the coin for years now, why not embrace a little change, if only in this one map?