Guild Wars 2

Pretty much ever since champion mobs have been spawned due to event scaling, people have been deliberately failing repeatable events in order to farm Champion Bags. It used to be the Ember Farm in Cursed Shore, and now it’s the Shelter’s Gate Farm, also in Cursed Shore. Part of the problem with failing these events is that they stop event chains moving forward, leaving aside that deliberately failing an event in order to repeat it is a blatant exploit.

The only way I can see to counter this incredibly annoying trend is to either (a) stop champions spawning as a result of scaling, or (b) stop champions spawned as a result of scaling from dropping champion loot bags. Obviously I’d rather option A but frankly anything to stop event chains being deliberately blocked by players would be welcome.

The ironic thing is that champion mobs that spawn naturally (like the Risen Archmage) are being left alone so that people can run up the same tunnel over and over again … making sure that they all stand outside the scary blue circle.

dont’ worry. Anet will just nerf it again like they always do because people are complaining about farmers failing events.

I disagree “Event Scaling” is what’s harming the game so much as the usual “let’s farm champions” mindset of approaching it. I’m playing another MMO without event scaling and I’m sad to say . . . I really miss it when I see 25 people swoop in and clean house, leaving everyone else to just stand there futilely trying to target one of the four mobs which spawn before it’s moshed out of existence.

I would say a better choice would be a refinement of your A option. Crank up the generation of Elite mobs (which are tougher than veterans and don’t drop Champion loot) when events scale up and limit Champion generation per event through scaling. Don’t eliminate it, but throttle it so there’s only so many which will spawn.

. . . then, be evil. Since doing this runs the risk of players just milking the Champions and letting it fail? Champion Bags only can be collected on a successful event. Or heck, just code Champion Bags for completing a major event chain once per day and give randomized other loot other times, then remove Champion spawns altogether and replace each would-be Champion with two Elites which complement each other.

I disagree with the once a day crap. That’s terrible. Just combine all the rewards that you’d get and put them at the end of the chain. We already have restrictions on big events and that’s no fun. Of course if anet does that total drops would likely take a hit.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Farmers cause their own problems. They farm an event that wasn’t meant to be farmed until it’s nerfed into the grown and then come to the forums to complain about anet nerfing events and ruining their farm. End result, it ruins it for everyone.

P.S. Abusing game mechanics (failing events to farm them) should result in at the very least temp suspensions from the game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Champion Bags only can be collected on a successful event.

I think that’s the problem solved there. Nice one. We already have events that pop up additional rewards including geodes and so on, so this would be good, I imagine it should be relatively easy to defer the dropping of loot boxes on champ kills until the end of the event.

It also has the added effect of rewarding people for “completing” the event. As it is karma, silver and xp is a bit… meh, it’d be nice to get a chest with a few champ bags too.

Personally, I think that failing any event should never be better than completing it.

There is nothing wrong with event scaling. It is working as intended. It is just, with the champ trains, they just mindlessly zerg all day long.

The problem is not with scaling. The problem comes from currency failures within the game. Event completion is rewarded with valueless currency. Killing mobs is rewarded with valued currency. Full loot is effectively awarded for failed events and this need not be the case.

I really think that they should remove champion loot bags and instead make event loot bags that are awarded when an event completes.

Most of the champions in the game are tied to events now anyway, so this wouldn’t significantly impact the number of champ bags being created (other than for those who intentionally misuse events to generate loot).

Dusty Moon.4382:

There is nothing wrong with event scaling. It is working as intended. It is just, with the champ trains, they just mindlessly zerg all day long.

Which is also fine, if that’s what they want to do, it’s just event focused and farm focused folks don’t mix very well.

I’d rather they just not have champs drop bags at events that were solely brought into existence because of scaling at an event where the monster itself is not the ‘main event’.

At Trio, they are the main event, they’d continue to be farmed, bags ahoy. Giant, Ooze. Again, main event, bags. Something like the Vets in the, ugh, they event with all the jumping and zooming and pulling that inspired Dry Top (forget what it’s called), where you click on something and a Vet spawns to kill, but if there’s 5+ people, it’s a champ? Bags ahoy, because while it scaled, it is the main event.

Places where the champs come into existence because of scaling and they are not the main event (killing them isn’t the direct objective and doesn’t move the event forward, but is solely there as an obstacle to completing the event, and performing some other task is the objective), those champs shouldn’t have bags. Now, if a champ is at an event, and there’s a set number and you have to kill ‘n’ of them as part of clearing the event, then those should have bags, or at least some of them, why not? There’s a fixed number, they are part of the objective, failing the event won’t make more come (well, if it did, it would be because of scaling, and they wouldn’t be the same as the first ones, so…they’d have no bag).

Now, back to the train, I don’t see anything wrong with that type of play. They have their bags, already been hit pretty hard twice, I don’t see why we need to hit on them again. In fact, I’d say that if after ensuring champs don’t drop bags as non-objects members of an event, the train loses some targets, well, add one or two more of them out in the area that they can farm as part of their rotation.

Two caveats:

1. Be careful what you with for might apply. If there are a lot of folks there solely for the farming, and they all leave, will you be able to complete the event even not scaled with the people remaining who just want to do the event and aren’t there for the bags? I’m sure the answer is yes, but, you never know.

2. While I’m fine with ‘the train’ and feel they have every right to play how they want to, I also believe individual players and small groups can play as they choose, and all champs are fair game. I think the train folks have gotten a lot better about just letting it go and moving on, and I commend those that have. On the solo/small group side, while there is no objective way to measure it, I hope your motivations are pure (I wanted to try this alone or with my friends) or at least passive (I was passing by, it was up, figured I’d kill it) and not evil (heh, I killed it, and I know it makes them mad! look, they said my name in chat! kek kek! pew pew! it’s easy, i don’t even really enjoy it, but look how mad they get! that’s the best part! i’m going to keep coming around and doing it right before they come back around, they’ll really get mad then! my favorite part about MMOs is finding ways where one person can ruin the play of 20-30!). Only you know who you are, and at the very least, I hope you made a conscious decision not to reproduce.

so some people like to farm. what’s wrong with that? if you want, just get a group and complete the event.

how is that harming the game? so a few people get stacks of bloodstone dust and some Masterwork fodder, I can’t see how that impacts on your game

Unless you are one of the “mindless” Zergers that follow around huge packs and hit ‘1’ and AFK, exactly how does this REALLY effect your progress in the game?

I see a Champ event, close to the area and see the ZERG. If possible, I go in and actually TRY do my best DPS and attempt to not go down in the massive mob (yes, that is a bit of a ‘mess’). I then collect my reward and move on to what I was doing before. The effect on my gameplay is that I got a Champ Bag I likely wouldn’t have in much less time (and possibly a Rare….occasionally and Exotic) and I continue on my merry way. My game is not harmed nor “ruined” by these happenings.

Your mileage may vary.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Unless you are one of the “mindless” Zergers that follow around huge packs and hit ‘1’ and AFK, exactly how does this REALLY effect your progress in the game?

I see a Champ event, close to the area and see the ZERG. If possible, I go in and actually TRY do my best DPS and attempt to not go down in the massive mob (yes, that is a bit of a ‘mess’). I then collect my reward and move on to what I was doing before. The effect on my gameplay is that I got a Champ Bag I likely wouldn’t have in much less time (and possibly a Rare….occasionally and Exotic) and I continue on my merry way. My game is not harmed nor “ruined” by these happenings.

Your mileage may vary.

I usually go the other way. Mostly it is due to the fact that I dislike champ trains and farming.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Unless you are one of the “mindless” Zergers that follow around huge packs and hit ‘1’ and AFK, exactly how does this REALLY effect your progress in the game?

I see a Champ event, close to the area and see the ZERG. If possible, I go in and actually TRY do my best DPS and attempt to not go down in the massive mob (yes, that is a bit of a ‘mess’). I then collect my reward and move on to what I was doing before. The effect on my gameplay is that I got a Champ Bag I likely wouldn’t have in much less time (and possibly a Rare….occasionally and Exotic) and I continue on my merry way. My game is not harmed nor “ruined” by these happenings.

Your mileage may vary.

I usually go the other way. Mostly it is due to the fact that I dislike champ trains and farming.

80% of my decent Exotics have come form Champ bags, so I see no reason to deny myself a chance at some desirable loot because there are idiotic players in the area….but I get your aversion to the play-style.

The centre of the problem is the champ bags and their respective carriers, and how farmers have now found a way to game the system into giving them more champs.
The reason why champs appear in any case is because their difficultly scales better than vets and elites thanks to Unshakable/Defiance, making sure there’s still some challenge when many players are fighting.

With the choice of plans A & B presented by OP, B wouldn’t be the best option, as you’re breaking some conventional rules of the world (you helped take down a champ, and you can pick up some loot). My opinion is that you could work plan A through just lowering the (maximum) scaling of the event for each failure to complete it; this makes an anti-frustration mechanic for players who struggle to complete the event, and after enough purposeful failures, the scaling become too low for the champs to show up.

I see no problem with people farming mats. They’re what keeps the prices low.

Why thinking so complicated? Simply tie the death of the champions (in a scaled event) to the completion of the event.
If scary blue ring is occupied, advance tick by 3 per second. If champion is defeated, advance tick by 10 even if ring is red.
Done, maximum amount of spawns decided, event completion guaranteed, nothing changed for non-scaled events like this.

leebe.2093:

how is that harming the game? so a few people get stacks of bloodstone dust and some Masterwork fodder, I can’t see how that impacts on your game

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dynamic_Event#Anti-griefing_design

It creates player conflict.
Case in point, I was doing map completion in Cursed Shore (after not being in the map for about 6 weeks) and it seemed like a good opportunity to tag the Shelter’s Gate WP and POI when there was a zerg of players running through Penitent Path with the event chain.
Blix makes it through the tunnel; cue capture event. I run over the WP and POI, and then promptly get splattered by 4 elites, because the zerg doesn’t want to walk into the capture circle. No points for guessing why they didn’t revive me.

Aside from players in the zerg being foul mouthed and angry to anyone unaware of how they’re trying to screw the system, this is not how the game should be working as it’s now putting different players’ interests at odds with each other.

I would be very much against returning Champions to the state they were in pre-champ-bag, and against spawning more Elites, the mob class that is now what Champions were then. I hate the Elite classification with a passion.

When Champ bags were introduced, ANet stated that event scaling would then allow players to spawn “Champions on demand.” This was intended and it should not be surprising that this is what has happened.

As for player conflict, there will always be such. If one source of conflict is that players are using event mechanics to prolong events, then change the way the events work. Don’t change the champ bags, and for kitten’s sake, no more Elites.

Farming happens because loot distribution sucks and needs to be rebalanced so farming isn’t more profitable than playing the events. Loot in this game is in need of rebalancing and this will eliminate the need to farm, and by default solve the scaling problem.

mtpelion.4562:

I really think that they should remove champion loot bags and instead make event loot bags that are awarded when an event completes.

Most of the champions in the game are tied to events now anyway, so this wouldn’t significantly impact the number of champ bags being created (other than for those who intentionally misuse events to generate loot).

i would say “event successfully completes”, and it would be nice. That would also solve the issue in WvW where people rush the lord for the bag while some are left out because, well, they are fighting off the defenders. Plus, with champs being tied to the event, its win/win and the “farmers” cant abuse event/scaling mechanics while not ruining the game for the others.

Also I think this whole farming trend in Gw2 comes from the fact that people get throttled when they play the game as they like. Diminishing returns has been a cheap mechanic implemented since day 1 by ANET. So ppl try to find some way of not wasting their time in game, specially where item prices are going up exponentially and acquisition is hidden behind RNG that seems to favour a return from inactivity.

Just to be absolutely clear on the matter; I have no problem at all with farming (indeed, I’ve been known to join the odd zerg myself) what I do have a problem with is players exploiting game mechanics by deliberately failing events. The notion that failing an event is more profitable than succeeding at it is nonsensical in my opinion.

ummm, do you want to bump mat prices OP?

They should just add timers to events that cannot fail.

Wait, there are events that spawn champs (if they’re scaled up enough) and those champs drop bags? Because that’s certainly not the case in world bosses like fire elemental or shadow behemoth. This seems like a bug.

Bob F It.5701:

leebe.2093:

how is that harming the game? so a few people get stacks of bloodstone dust and some Masterwork fodder, I can’t see how that impacts on your game

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dynamic_Event#Anti-griefing_design

It creates player conflict.
Case in point, I was doing map completion in Cursed Shore (after not being in the map for about 6 weeks) and it seemed like a good opportunity to tag the Shelter’s Gate WP and POI when there was a zerg of players running through Penitent Path with the event chain.
Blix makes it through the tunnel; cue capture event. I run over the WP and POI, and then promptly get splattered by 4 elites, because the zerg doesn’t want to walk into the capture circle. No points for guessing why they didn’t revive me.

Aside from players in the zerg being foul mouthed and angry to anyone unaware of how they’re trying to screw the system, this is not how the game should be working as it’s now putting different players’ interests at odds with each other.

Well I don’t think it creates player conflict though it does present an opportunity for one.

But if you had waited a few minutes for the capture event to finish you could’ve got the wp and poi safely without any player conflict and then left with a few extra champ bags.

leebe.2093:

Bob F It.5701:

leebe.2093:

how is that harming the game? so a few people get stacks of bloodstone dust and some Masterwork fodder, I can’t see how that impacts on your game

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dynamic_Event#Anti-griefing_design

It creates player conflict.
Case in point, I was doing map completion in Cursed Shore (after not being in the map for about 6 weeks) and it seemed like a good opportunity to tag the Shelter’s Gate WP and POI when there was a zerg of players running through Penitent Path with the event chain.
Blix makes it through the tunnel; cue capture event. I run over the WP and POI, and then promptly get splattered by 4 elites, because the zerg doesn’t want to walk into the capture circle. No points for guessing why they didn’t revive me.

Aside from players in the zerg being foul mouthed and angry to anyone unaware of how they’re trying to screw the system, this is not how the game should be working as it’s now putting different players’ interests at odds with each other.

Well I don’t think it creates player conflict though it does present an opportunity for one.

But if you had waited a few minutes for the capture event to finish you could’ve got the wp and poi safely without any player conflict and then left with a few extra champ bags.

I had been in the map for 3 minutes and the commander wasn’t giving any instructions. Now I know better and I’ll stay away from non-temple zergs in Orr.

It’s not hurting the game, scaling is the way to do it so it feels more fluid. It’s harming YOU, not the game and the reason why you say it’s harming the game is because you don’t want want to look selfish saying it’s hurting you.

Harzul.9816:

It’s not hurting the game, scaling is the way to do it so it feels more fluid. It’s harming YOU, not the game and the reason why you say it’s harming the game is because you don’t want want to look selfish saying it’s hurting you.

Perhaps you could explain how it’s hurting me? Because I assure you that it isn’t. It’s just a terrible shame to see an entire event chain stall because a zerg is deliberately causing it to fail. Events aren’t running and that is hurting the game. It may not be hurting your bank balance thanks to all those champion bags acquired through exploiting a game mechanic but it is hurting the game.

I think the problem is that your issue with scaling is misplaced. You should focus more on the people exploiting rather than blame scaling.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Champion Bags only can be collected on a successful event.

See, on release, I thought this was going to be how ALL loot worked. You’d complete an event and you’d get a reward choice pop-up, in much the same way you do now if you complete a Personal Story segment.
Rewards would scale based on participation.

Turns out I was mistaken, but I think I would definitely have preferred such a system, especially considering how fickle RNG can be in GW2.

it would be nice if they brought back the old pen/shelter farm that people would farm for completion all day long. You get event completions and lots of loot and it wasn’t for the champ bags.

So i went to check it out after seeing this post. Apparently you can get upto 60 bags per hour from that event. Anet nerfs incoming? Also, alot of toxic players in zerg. I think we will definitely see this event changed in some way, maybe not now but soon.

Everyone who’s against that exploit should just team up and force the event to complete unless there’s a way to solo complete it. I’m not too familiar with that event anymore. I do know that the other one that was fixed recently involving an NPC I would force to complete with a banner.

Ayrilana.1396:

Everyone who’s against that exploit should just team up and force the event to complete unless there’s a way to solo complete it.

The issues with force-completing the event are (a) the scaling makes it virtually impossible to solo either of the two approaches to the camp (though with a few organised characters you could deny the zerg any mobs … but that would take upwards of a full group to manage), and (b) any players attempting to force-complete the event are subject to a LOT of animosity and threats of being reported … though I have no idea what heading they’d put the report under.

In short, while it’s theoretically possible it would be better (in my opinion) if ANet changed the event (and others like it) to be resistant to exploitation.