Guild Wars 2

Boring and repetitive. Probably not for new players as they’re still exploring the world overall. But with all of the positive aspects of events on the one hand (‘active’ maps, gathering players, jump in and out quickly) there are also crucial points that prevent me from considering PoF to be interesting -> PvE.

After Season 2 and HoT the design changed from larger meta events back to rather smaller, quicker events. I could basically witness multiple rotations in a extremely short amount of time while doing a few Season 3 achievements in the new maps. Up to that point when it simply got annoying and I left… “Really. You’re trapped in there again? I rescued you 5 minutes ago, how did you even do that?”

These new maps make me feel like being stuck in a way too short, annoying time loop. It’s really frustrating to see the same things happening again and again within a few minutes – in contrast to completing a quest forever to move on with the story. Of course, it’s always been like that with events, but the design of Season 3 somehow made it even more obvious.

Another point is that I expected events to evolve over the time. The events of Season 3 could be divided into simple defeat, protect/escort and gather tasks. When I played in the new Crystal Oasis map (demo weekend) I even encountered events that reminded me of a core Tyria starter zone – Queensdale:

• We should defend the Amnoon farm workers from the Forged just like we protected the ranchers in Queensdale from bandits.
• We should defend the water pipes of Amnoon from saboteurs just like we protected the water pipes in Queensdale from bandits.
• We should gather fish in Amnoon just like a level 10 heart quest in Queensdale told us to gather crabs for the fishermen.
• (n/A yet) We should escort people in Amnoon just like we escorted the trading post caravan, Moa Trainer Kappa, carnival caravan in Queensdale.

I really don’t want to buy a lvl 80 expansion in 2017 if we’ll do exactly the same things as in the core game starter zones of 2012. At some point it’s just all the same copied over and over again. Maybe add one or two events that include the new masteries (gliding, mounts) and there you have it. A new expansion.

Keep in mind that those points are purely subjective and concern PvE only

Edit: sources: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Queensdale
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crystal_Oasis

So what do you think about the events in Path of Fire? Do you expect them to be different to anything we’ve seen before? Or just more like the core game?

I expect PoF to be much like LS3. And quite a lot more like core Tyria when compared to HoT. Which for me is good thing and only reason to even consider buying it since I dislike pretty much everything in HoT, including those timed map-wide meta events.

It’s probably only the first map don’t worry. It’s the only part of that has a human population, the rest -should- be a desolate wasteland filled with Forged, Branded and Undead, I don’t expect to be protecting farmers there.

Tekey.7946:

When I played in the new Crystal Oasis map (demo weekend) I even encountered events that reminded me of a core Tyria starter zone – Queensdale

That’s exactly why i bought it and skipped HoT. First impression was omg this is Queensdale dialed all the way to 80 and with mounts! I love it!

I really don’t want to buy a lvl 80 expansion in 2017 if we’ll do exactly the same things as in the core game starter zones of 2012.

but that’s just me.

So far, MMO developers have not really figured out how to design PvE things to do that are radically different than the basic quest types:

• Kill this creature
• Protect these NPC’s/this place
• Escort X to Y
• Collect items X
• Take item X to NPC Y

Meta events allowed ANet to put some variations on these basics, like:

• Split your forces so that you can collect, kill and escort at the same time as part of a grand design.
• Use mechanic X during Phase Y

Notice, though, that the basics are still there. Even the use of mechanics is simply an add-on to what is usually a kill quest.

FogLeg.9354:

Which for me is good thing and only reason to even consider buying it since I dislike pretty much everything in HoT, including those timed map-wide meta events.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Meta events allowed ANet to put some variations on these basics, like:

• Split your forces so that you can collect, kill and escort at the same time as part of a grand design.
• Use mechanic X during Phase Y

Notice, though, that the basics are still there. Even the use of mechanics is simply an add-on to what is usually a kill quest.

The proper solution is to have map-wide meta events and local meta events, a combination between the HoT and Central Tyria approaches.

Why?

Population.

Normal events are very bad for a game with as many players as this because they get zerged down within seconds. Have you ever tried to do a daily event completer on Queensdale and get a single hit in before everything dies?

Local meta events (such as on Iron Marches) greatly reduce this problem, but do not completely solve it because many players do not know about them and may have difficulty finding them. Running across such an event as as new player who does not know to look for it is all about timing and luck.

Map-wide meta events allow huge numbers of players to come and zerg the noodles out of events without sacrificing difficulty. Everyone has plenty of time to get their credit, and all classes and playing styles are necessary—in particular, this is the only time that support is valueable in open-world. Any other time anyone who is not playing a DPS is largely left out or has nothing to do.

No matter what you do, if you exclude any of these then you will disrupt a significant portion of the population from playing as they prefer. But I have a feeling that PoF will chose only normal events or normal and local meta-events due to all the backlash from HoT, and we will have veteran players going back to HoT maps for another two years just to play group content.

Maybe the bounties will prevent that from happening, but I doubt it.

Event overlap is also one of the things that I loved about this game when I started playing it, when things would just get crazy when 3-4 events would overlap and you’d have players rushing to complete all the objectives.

I will miss that as well, since players complain about it too, I am sure that overlapping events will get nerfed or removed in short order.

FogLeg.9354:

I expect PoF to be much like LS3. And quite a lot more like core Tyria when compared to HoT. Which for me is good thing and only reason to even consider buying it since I dislike pretty much everything in HoT, including those timed map-wide meta events.

What would lead you to expect this? I don’t expect it at all. They pretty well have to make the difficulty on par with HoT (which I love), otherwise they’re really not going to maintain their level 80 population.

Hawken.7932:

FogLeg.9354:

I expect PoF to be much like LS3. And quite a lot more like core Tyria when compared to HoT. Which for me is good thing and only reason to even consider buying it since I dislike pretty much everything in HoT, including those timed map-wide meta events.

What would lead you to expect this? I don’t expect it at all. They pretty well have to make the difficulty on par with HoT (which I love), otherwise they’re really not going to maintain their level 80 population.

i mean…yes and no, a decent amount of the population finds the HoT areas to be to hard. Im actually with Fog in that im thinking they will be like the LS3 maps. I would love to see some stuff on the level of HoT though.

I found the map NPCs to be about equivalent to lvl 60 core maps in difficulty (champs and group events). This can and probably will change for release but if not and it is a trend for all new maps it will be very uninteresting.

Dante.1763:

i mean…yes and no, a decent amount of the population finds the HoT areas to be to hard. Im actually with Fog in that im thinking they will be like the LS3 maps. I would love to see some stuff on the level of HoT though.

I guess what I mean is, from my point of view, the HoT metas are, relative to other MMOs, very successful. I play them daily and they are full of people always. So that would indicate to me they’ll likely be looking to repeat that success. I haven’t seen any talk from Anet which would indicate otherwise.

Obviously the LS3 metas were of a lighter variety because it takes a lot of work to pull off the big ones.

Hawken.7932:

Obviously the LS3 metas were of a lighter variety because it takes a lot of work to pull off the big ones.

LS3 maps are “filler” maps that’s why their meta events are lighter. I don’t expect expansion maps to be like living world maps at all.

Hawken.7932:

FogLeg.9354:

I expect PoF to be much like LS3. And quite a lot more like core Tyria when compared to HoT. Which for me is good thing and only reason to even consider buying it since I dislike pretty much everything in HoT, including those timed map-wide meta events.

What would lead you to expect this? I don’t expect it at all. They pretty well have to make the difficulty on par with HoT (which I love), otherwise they’re really not going to maintain their level 80 population.

In general, I noticed several things in the PoF demo that hinted towards core Tyria/Season 3 design in contrast to HoT:

• reintroduction of heart quests
• implementation of heart quests in story instances
• overall easy difficutly of mobs
• Crystal Oasis didn’t have much verticality (maybe due to desert theme, lack of gliders or general design)
• overall simple, small events that reminded me of Queensdale
• low event density on a stretched, larger landscape

I think that PoF will be the exact opposite of HoT since there were always two sides, the ones that (dis)liked verticality, (dis)liked huge meta events, (dis)liked the difficulty.

Tekey.7946:

In general, I noticed several things in the PoF demo that hinted towards core Tyria/Season 3 design in contrast to HoT:

But that was the first map only. And not the whole map.

maddoctor.2738:

Tekey.7946:

In general, I noticed several things in the PoF demo that hinted towards core Tyria/Season 3 design in contrast to HoT:

But that was the first map only. And not the whole map.

I don’t sew how the reintroduction of heart quests (in the story) could vary in other maps. The same with the difficulty of mobs. The difficulty of HoT overall could be seen in the first map Verdant Brink as well as Auric Basin or Tangled Depths.

Do you think the hydras will be much more powerful in the next map? Why should they be weak in the first map and stronger in the second map?

maddoctor.2738:

Hawken.7932:

Obviously the LS3 metas were of a lighter variety because it takes a lot of work to pull off the big ones.

LS3 maps are “filler” maps that’s why their meta events are lighter. I don’t expect expansion maps to be like living world maps at all.

Not true at all.

LS2 maps, Dry Top and Silverwastes are exactly half-way between core Tyria maps and HoT. The enemies are already more difficult and have new mechanics never explained before. There are timed map-wide meta events, and even coordination of several groups to finish. HoT simply went further the same path.

Now, if you compare HoT areas and LS3, is is already clear that most hated features of HoT were abandoned (thankfully!) and much of the stuff that players disliked was toned down. Most LS3 maps are really very similar to core areas.

Next, we had PoF preview, which was honestly just slightly more polished version of LS3. There is no reason to believe PoF will suddenly spike up difficulty or completely change map design or event system half-way through the expansion. LS2 did not. HoT did not. LS3 did not. The preview area is suppose to be where people get their first impression of the full expansion. HoT for example does not change at all between the spot you first enter the Verdant Brink and far corner of Dragon Stand.

Finally, it makes sense to offer 2 products that are designed for different playerbase, instead of just keep pushing updates to the same players over and over while completely ignoring everyone else. Nowhere in PoF preview or the announcements have I seen or felt it to be “upgraded HoT”, quite the opposite.

FogLeg.9354:

maddoctor.2738:

Hawken.7932:

Obviously the LS3 metas were of a lighter variety because it takes a lot of work to pull off the big ones.

LS3 maps are “filler” maps that’s why their meta events are lighter. I don’t expect expansion maps to be like living world maps at all.

Not true at all.

LS2 maps, Dry Top and Silverwastes are exactly half-way between core Tyria maps and HoT. The enemies are already more difficult and have new mechanics never explained before. There are timed map-wide meta events, and even coordination of several groups to finish. HoT simply went further the same path.

Now, if you compare HoT areas and LS3, is is already clear that most hated features of HoT were abandoned (thankfully!) and much of the stuff that players disliked was toned down. Most LS3 maps are really very similar to core areas.

Next, we had PoF preview, which was honestly just slightly more polished version of LS3. There is no reason to believe PoF will suddenly spike up difficulty or completely change map design or event system half-way through the expansion. LS2 did not. HoT did not. LS3 did not. The preview area is suppose to be where people get their first impression of the full expansion. HoT for example does not change at all between the spot you first enter the Verdant Brink and far corner of Dragon Stand.

Finally, it makes sense to offer 2 products that are designed for different playerbase, instead of just keep pushing updates to the same players over and over while completely ignoring everyone else. Nowhere in PoF preview or the announcements have I seen or felt it to be “upgraded HoT”, quite the opposite.

HoT preview difficulty was deliberately toned down since people who don’t really play would be enjoying the demo. No real reason to believe that they didn’t do the same for PoF.

Tekey.7946:

I don’t sew how the reintroduction of heart quests (in the story) could vary in other maps. The same with the difficulty of mobs. The difficulty of HoT overall could be seen in the first map Verdant Brink as well as Auric Basin or Tangled Depths.

The hearts will stay, that’s obvious. The difficulty can always change and the later maps -should- have more interesting mobs to fight.

Do you think the hydras will be much more powerful in the next map? Why should they be weak in the first map and stronger in the second map?

I think the hydras were a mistake that they will fix in the release version

Tekey.7946:

In general, I noticed several things in the PoF demo that hinted towards core Tyria/Season 3 design in contrast to HoT:

• reintroduction of heart quests
• implementation of heart quests in story instances
• overall easy difficutly of mobs
• Crystal Oasis didn’t have much verticality (maybe due to desert theme, lack of gliders or general design)
• overall simple, small events that reminded me of Queensdale
• low event density on a stretched, larger landscape

I think that PoF will be the exact opposite of HoT since there were always two sides, the ones that (dis)liked verticality, (dis)liked huge meta events, (dis)liked the difficulty.

I think that some of those are indeed to design. Also it’s a coastal/farmland area. Plus the mount jumps horizontally rather than vertically. Plus mounts in general might mean they spread events out more.

Plus it’s the start of a new expansion. Instead of coming from HoT and LS3 alot of players come from just core and the start may intentionally be easier and easing people into the experience where it gets harder later on. Something that was heavily criticized for HoT. So i think it’s intentionally on the easier side.

If you properly explored the map, you found verticality in alot of places though. especially to the north east and north west.

If you think logically though, verticality will be part of PoF regardless. The springer mount alone should give you a hint, if not the other jumping abilities.
I dont understand why holding the demo is being held as a template for the rest of PoF while to me its obviously introductory.

Instead you should focus on what is different, because all events will have some basic elements, like defending, travelling collecting and killing stuff.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Plus it’s the start of a new expansion. Instead of coming from HoT and LS3 alot of players come from just core and the start may intentionally be easier and easing people into the experience where it gets harder later on. Something that was heavily criticized for HoT. So i think it’s intentionally on the easier side.

This was precisely my thought.

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maddoctor.2738:

Hawken.7932:

Obviously the LS3 metas were of a lighter variety because it takes a lot of work to pull off the big ones.

LS3 maps are “filler” maps that’s why their meta events are lighter. I don’t expect expansion maps to be like living world maps at all.

What does you bring to this exception? I always thought and still think that HoT is 2 already finished living season sessions hastily cobbled together, bloated a little with minigames and then some five or more sessions of the same kind put behind it. Obviously there were more and better things planned for HoT who would have given the maps more sense storywise, but time probably ran out and the release date was fixed.

I think HoT is the best content in the game really. The maps have interesting and challenging exploration, great level design, interesting immersive atmosphere, a good balance of small events and cascading events, culminating in great meta events. Yes, the combat is challenging, but challenging content is necessary to sustain a PvE population that doesn’t necessarily have time to devote to raiding, but still wants to experience the thrill that group content can provide.

After playing 10+ years of MMOs, I find it some of the best stuff I’ve ever seen produced, and given that every time I play in those zones they’re absolutely full of people, I’m obviously not alone in that feeling. So, yeah, more of that please. :-)

Hawken.7932:

FrizzFreston.5290:

Plus it’s the start of a new expansion. Instead of coming from HoT and LS3 alot of players come from just core and the start may intentionally be easier and easing people into the experience where it gets harder later on. Something that was heavily criticized for HoT. So i think it’s intentionally on the easier side.

This was precisely my thought.

Other players here have already explained that Living World Season 2 was the bridge between core Tyria and Heart of Thorns. The Mordrem were harder than the usual mobs but not quite as hard as HoT. If I remember correctly, the start of HoT was even way harder until they adapted/nerfed it?

Other than that, HoT overall was heavily criticized by a certain group of players – casual type of players. That’s perfectly fine as there are always different groups that demand different content. They couldn’t complete hero points on their own anymore -> because they were too hard. Huge meta events needed dedication and enough time, Dragon’s Stand should be an obvious example. You’ll also need some time to adapt to the difficulty and setting of the maps (just think of the navigation through Tangled Depths). Overall it certainly wasn’t an expansion for casual players who only have half an hour to play each day. HoT took the game to the next level.

After receiving this feedback they went back to smaller, casual, more independent events in Season 3 where you could jump in and out easily just like in core Tyria maps.
Now, if we transfer the principle of Living World Seasons as bridge to the expansions, what can we expect in PoF?

They tuned the difficulty down significantly in S3 – instead of preparing the players for a higher difficulty just like S2 did. The demo showed us weak enemies as well, that may be because of marketing reasons (everyone could join and look what it’s like) but it may also be that it’s the difficulty of the new expansion, in order to cater to another target group – the more relaxed, casual players who disliked HoT.

You said it’s probably adapted to players who come directly from the core game. It’s the second end-game lvl 80 expansion that’s being released. As a player who plays the game because of its PvE, I would at least go for the latest Living World episodes to find out what’s even going on in the story or just to know if I liked the newer content and its difficulty that leads directly to the expansion I want to buy – no? That’s the needed bridge to the next expansion. There’s no need to dumb down the first three maps of the expansion just to make the introduction easier.

But as we know, there are people who liked the difficulty of HoT and there are people who disliked it. I still expect them to cater to the second group of people this time – meaning that PoF will be way easier than HoT.

Tekey.7946:

Other players here have already explained that Living World Season 2 was the bridge between core Tyria and Heart of Thorns. The Mordrem were harder than the usual mobs but not quite as hard as HoT. If I remember correctly, the start of HoT was even way harder until they adapted/nerfed it?

Actually a lot of the Mordrem in LS2 were harder than their HoT versions. Then they got seriously nerfed when the expansion was released. Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Vine Thrashers in particular were a real pain to deal with. Wolves were 1-shot killing even Warriors in defensive gear when hitting from behind, they had retaliation that killed fast attacking builds while Thrashers were completely immune to all attacks, power and condi, unless you hit them from behind. Mordrem Terragrifs that use the exploding projectiles do not exist in Heart of Thorns but could kill a player really fast since they are homing and you can’t dodge them.

The difference? In Silverwastes players didn’t fight the mobs alone but formed huge zergs. In Heart of Thorns they had to split up, but the overall difficulty of LS2 mobs compared to HoT mobs isn’t that far off. Until they nerfed all those LS2 mobs with the release of HoT that is.

Tekey.7946:

They tuned the difficulty down significantly in S3 – instead of preparing the players for a higher difficulty just like S2 did.

I don’t think Bloodstone Fen has reduced difficulty than Heart of Thorns. In fact mobs there still hit hard and have complex abilities, they also really tight packed, similar to some Heart of Thorns areas.

Ember Bay is a joke, however there is the Mursaat Fortress area which features some great enemies. There are veteran karka and some -always hard to kill- reef drakes around. So while the majority of the zone is really easy, there ARE parts that are significantly harder.

Bitterfrost Frontier has the bitter frost area which has much tighter mob populations. In general BF is easy but the mob density makes up for it.

Lake Doric has the centaur farm area which is obviously not for solo players. The rest of the zone is more of a moderate difficulty setting. But not super easy like most of Ember Bay or Bitterfrost.

Draconis Mons has a mix of really easy open world areas, mostly around the hearts, and some a lot harder areas featuring heart of thorns enemies, like mushrooms and saurians. There is also the devourer area with Zinn’s Tomb which is certainly NOT an easy area.

Siren’s Landing is mostly easy, however the area around Balthazar’s Shrine is NOT easy at all.

In summary, if LS3 zones show us how PoF will be, it will have mostly easy areas, but the zones can have much harder areas in them, so it’s not the entire zone that is easy.