Guild Wars 2

This is mainly for the Exotic versus Ascended debate players who refuse to do this themselves, yet still try to claim that the difference is minimal (around 5%).

TL:DR at the bottom, all the supporting evidence is in the middle.

Some disagree with the previous analysis of the Exotic vs. Ascended so I am going to redo the analysis with a finer comb. I will not, however, add in the new bloodlust buff, as it is not constant (meaning you could be holding one orb at any given time and lose it in the middle of the fight, or gain another). I will also be ignoring all flat damage+% since all they do is scale and inflate the numbers. Since it is all multiplicative the percentage increase will remain the same.

I will be looking at extreme cases: aka lowest possible armor for each armor tier.

For ease on the eyes:
CD=Critical Damage P=Power Pre=Precision T=Toughness V=Vitality H=Healing Power Con=Condition Damage BD=Boon Duration ConD=Condition Duration AR=Agony Resist
D=Damage increase by a % CC=Critical Chance

The Thief build I will be looking at will be a D/D backstab build, 25/30/0/0/15.

I will start with listing out the base stats for the Thief (not including might/food)

Exotics:
Dagger: 921-984d 90p 64pre 5%cd sigil: Force + 5%d
Dagger: 921-984d 90p 64pre 5%cd sigil: Bloodlust 0-250p
Helm: 97 armor 45p 32pre 2%cd Rune: Ruby Orb: 20p 14pre 2%cd
Shoulders: 97 armor 34p 24pre 2%cd Rune: Ruby Orb: 20p 14pre 2%cd
Chest: 338 armor 101p 72pre 5%cd Rune: Ruby Orb: 20p 14pre 2%cd
Gloves: 157 armor 34p 24pre 2%cd Rune: Ruby Orb: 20p 14pre 2%cd
Legs: 218 armor 67p 48pre 3%cd Rune: Ruby Orb: 20p 14pre 2%cd
Feet: 157 armor 34p 24pre 2%cd Rune: Ruby Orb: 20p 14pre 2%cd
Amulet: 90p 64pre 5%cd Orb: Exquisite Ruby 25p 15pre 3%
Back: 22p 16pre 1%cd Orb: Exquisite Ruby 25p 15pre 3%
Ring 1: 67p 48pre 3%cd, Orb: Exquisite Ruby 25p 15pre 3%
Ring 2: 67p 48pre 3%cd, Orb: Exquisite Ruby 25p 15pre 3%
Trinket 1: 56p 40pre 3%cd Orb: Exquisite Ruby 25p 15pre 3%
Trinket 2: 56p 40pre 3%cd, Orb: Exquisite Ruby 25p 15pre 3%

Deadly Arts: 250p, 25% ConD
(III) Steal does damage & heals
(IX) Daggers do +5%d
Stealing applies poison
Weaken target when poisoning
+10%d if target has condition

Critical Strikes: 300pre, 30%cd
(II) 5 might on signet use
(III) +7%CC
(XI) +20% damage if target <50%
+5%cc while >90% health
critical hits have 20% chance to restore 1 initiative
+10%d when >6 initiative

Trickery: 150Con, 15% shorter steal
(IV) +5%d behind or beside target,
Stealing gives 3 initiative
increase max initiative by 3

Healing Skill:
Signet of Malice

Utility Skills:
Assassins Signet: 180p,
Active: Deal 15% more damage on next 5 attack

Signet of Agility: 180pre,
Active: Refill endurance and cure 1 condition for each nearby ally

Infiltrator’s Signet: Regen 1 Initiative every 10 seconds,
Active: Shadow step to target (stun breaker)
__________________________________________________________________
Including base values and passive signets (values in [] will not include signet passives)
Totals: P: 2,469 [2,289] {full bloodlust without signet 2,539} Pre: 2,178 [1,998]
T: 916 V: 916 CD: 104% Con: 150 ConD: 25%
CC: 76.1% [67.52] Steal Rate: -15% +Damage%: 35% [55% if target >50% health]
Armor: 1980 Health: 10,805

The only values that change when going from Exotic to Ascended are currently the weapon, amulet, back, rings, trinkets. Below are their values for the same Thief with the same exact set up except for the newly Ascended weapon and accessories.

Ascended:
Dagger: 970-1,030d 94p 67pre 5%cd sigil: Force + 5%d
Dagger: 970-1,030d 94p 67pre 5%cd sigil: Bloodlust 0-250p
Amulet: 126p 85pre 9%cd
Back: 56p 35pre 5%cd
Ring 1: 103p 68pre 8%cd
Ring 2: 103p 68pre 8%cd
Trinket 1: 91p 61pre 7%cd
Trinket 2: 91p 61pre 7%cd
__________________________________________________________________
New stats for Ascended Gear.
P: 2,539 [2,359] {full bloodlust without signet 2,609} Pre: 2,214 [2,034]
CD: 112%

Now…. The targets this Thief will be attacking will be full berserker as well.
Which means they will have the base toughness for their respective armor group.

Heavy Armor: 2,127 armor
Medium Armor: 1,980 armor
Light Armor: 1,836

We will also assume none of the targets have protection.

The damage formula for this game is….
Damage done = (Weapon Strength) * Power * (skill coefficient) / (targets armor)

For the example shown here we will be using Backstab skill coefficient which is….
1.2 from the front, or 2.4 from the back. We will always assume max.

This leads us to the actual calculation of the damage on the different targets. The stats needed are Power, Weapon strength, skill coefficient and targets armor.
We will assume the Thief will use the standard setup for the attack. When approaching the target right before he steals & CnD he will pop all his signets. This will give him 20 stacks of might. That is 700 power and +15% damage from the signet. We will also assume ideal conditions for his damage traits except for trait (XI) in the Critical Strikes line. We will also assume he has charged up his bloodlust stacks from the sigil.

Exotic Stat Recap and Damage Calculations
Weapon Damage: 984, Power: 3,239, Skill Coefficient: 2.4, Critical Damage: 104%
First Target: 2,127 armor Damage Done~ 3,596 if Critical~9,134
Second Target: 1,980 armor Damage Done~3,863 if Critical~9,812
Third Target: 1,836 armor Damage Done~4,166 if Critical~10,582

Ascended Stat Recap and Damage Calculations
Weapon Damage: 1,030, Power: 3,309, Skill Coefficient: 2.4, Critical Damage: 112%
First Target: 2,127 armor Damage Done~3,846 if Critical~10,077
Second Target: 1,980 armor Damage Done~4,131 if Critical~10,823
Third Target: 1,836 armor Damage Done~4,kitten if Critical~11,672

Comparing the two critical hits together for each target:
Target 1: 10,077/9,134 ~10.3% damage difference
Target 2: 10,823/9,812 ~10.3% damage difference
Target 3: 11,672/10,582 ~10.3% damage difference

Now you can add in the +35% damage the Thief would have if you want (for example on the Ascended Third Target he would deal ~15,757) but it will not change the percentage at which Ascended increase the damage over Exotics.

So in closing, THE OVERALL DAMAGE INCREASE FROM EXOTIC TO CURRENTLY AVAILABLE ASCENDED GEAR IS ROUGHLY 10.3%.

TL:DR Damage gain is around 10.3%

Guess it’s good to stay up to date in gear

Vanthian.9267:

So in closing, THE OVERALL DAMAGE INCREASE FROM EXOTIC TO CURRENTLY AVAILABLE ASCENDED GEAR IS ROUGHLY 10.3%.

TL:DR Damage gain is around 10.3%

And that’s before ascended armor. So much for no gear treadmill.

Good info, thanks.

Edit: out of curiosity, could you also do a comparison using only gear that is available in both exotic and ascended? That might give us some idea what kind of increase we will see once we have full ascended.

Thank you, OP.

And inb4 the “10.3% (higher with ascended armor!) doesn’t matter” people.

Oh, and thanks for the gear treadmill, Anet!

I don’t quite see how this make it a treadmill. Its vertical progression, but it doesn’t make it a treadmill until they keep adding tiers, which they seem to be quite against.

Vertical progression isn’t necessarily a bad thing because people like progression. Some people like comestics, some people want more stats. Not having Ascended gear doesn’t bar you from content. I don’t see the point of going into the WvW argument.

Thus the game caters to both individuals.

Ascended gear was beneficial to the game for other reasons regarding making content not dead as well. Did you ever actually see people doing Temples before it was added?

TL:DR Damage gain is around 10.3%

So in real game terms about another *2300? damage? with crits upwards of *2800 -3000?

*Guessing as i saw 5% was an extra 1000ish damage on another thread..

Xae Isareth.1364:

Ascended gear was beneficial to the game for other reasons regarding making content not dead as well. Did you ever actually see people doing Temples before it was added?

So instead of increasing rewards they decided to make a whole new tier of weapons / armor just so that people would do open world pve? Or instead of making new content?

really efficient game design right there…sticking to their principles!!

Xae Isareth.1364:

Ascended gear was beneficial to the game for other reasons regarding making content not dead as well. Did you ever actually see people doing Temples before it was added?

Fortnightly content updates should have taken care of that but if there were declining numbers even with the fortnightly content perhaps anet should have looked at the quality of that content rather than introduce a BiS grind.

champ.7021:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Ascended gear was beneficial to the game for other reasons regarding making content not dead as well. Did you ever actually see people doing Temples before it was added?

So instead of increasing rewards they decided to make a whole new tier of weapons / armor just so that people would do open world pve? Or instead of making new content?

really efficient game design right there…sticking to their principles!!

What can they do to increase rewards? More gold? Increases inflation. Rare materials? Undermines their value. Unique cosmetics? I like to point out that SB has Spirit Links, Jormag has Breath of Jormag, and that most skins from champ bags are worth about 1-2g.

Now do the same thing with Exotic vs Rare, and you’ll find the difference even greater. Heck do Exotic vs Fine and the difference is huge.

Xae Isareth.1364:

I don’t quite see how this make it a treadmill. Its vertical progression, but it doesn’t make it a treadmill until they keep adding tiers, which they seem to be quite against.

They will keep adding tiers.

Here’s an interesting article from almost a year ago on the topic.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-27-arenanet-holds-frank-reddit-debate-on-guild-wars-2-loot-grind

They toss around a lot of mumbo-jumbo to obfuscate exactly what their plans are, but they do finally make it pretty clear in these paragraphs:

On the general topic of vertical progression – i.e. going upwards in power rather than sideways or horizontal: being as powerful but different – Whiteside said Guild Wars 2 has it and “we do intend to keep moving forward with this philosophy”.

“We have never said there would be no vertical progression,” he wrote. "We do intend to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.

Thanks to the ascended mess, we know exactly what they mean by “zero grind” and “very low power curve”.

No, they never came right out and told us there would be no vertical progression, but they sure wanted us to believe it. That’s what got all the GW1 fans hooked and started the ball rolling. It’s a lot easier to get more players to join a game that already has a bunch of players.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Vertical progression isn’t necessarily a bad thing because people like progression.

Actually it is, and I’ll explain why.

1. Supplying vertical progression is always a losing battle. Always. The players that want it can never be supplied enough progression fast enough and will always quit as soon as they burn through whatever content you have available, which is very quickly because these players are almost across the board power-gamers of some sort. Providing progression for them keeps them around another month or two at best. Even slower, average players can easily play through vertical progression content far more quickly than developers can produce it.

2. Vertical progression always creates power creep and balancing nightmares.

3. Vertical progression means you have to create new content far faster than if you didn’t have it, because it obsoletes old content. A player in GW1 who started when Nightfall was released could still go back and find all the endgame content in Prophecies and Factions 100% useful and relevant. WoW, on the other hand, is one of the best-designed examples of vertical progression ever, and it has dozens of instances that almost no one ever visits any more because there’s no point.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Not having Ascended gear doesn’t bar you from content. I don’t see the point of going into the WvW argument.

It will, once they introduce the next tier of gear.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Ascended gear was beneficial to the game for other reasons regarding making content not dead as well. Did you ever actually see people doing Temples before it was added?

And it would have been just as effective at that if it had been merely cosmetic. GW1 proved that over and over.

morrolan.9608:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Ascended gear was beneficial to the game for other reasons regarding making content not dead as well. Did you ever actually see people doing Temples before it was added?

Fortnightly content updates should have taken care of that but if there were declining numbers even with the fortnightly content perhaps anet should have looked at the quality of that content rather than introduce a BiS grind.

What you call grind, I call being rewarded for playing the game the same way I have been playing it since level 1. I hate grinding, which is why I wont go for Legendary unless by happen chance, but ascended is far from a grind when I can get it through normal game play with no grinding needed. But when we have a lot of people who consider leveling up as grinding, it is no surprise that something that will take more than a few days to get would also be considered as grinding. /shrug

eisberg.2379:

What you call grind, I call being rewarded for playing the game the same way I have been playing it since level 1.

You were running fractals from level 1? Really?

eisberg.2379:

I hate grinding, which is why I wont go for Legendary unless by happen chance, but ascended is far from a grind when I can get it through normal game play with no grinding needed. But when we have a lot of people who consider leveling up as grinding, it is no surprise that something that will take more than a few days to get would also be considered as grinding. /shrug

You never played GW1, did you? Even most exotic gear is a grind. Only the crafted stuff isn’t. With ascended, even the crafted stuff is a grind – and time-gated to boot.

I should probably upgrade those greens I’ve been wearing since near-launch. Lol. See if I can’t get some Rares to drop!

Thankfully, in this game, I haven’t noticed any real deficit keeping me from playing and enjoying myself. =)

DocHolliday.5921:

It will, once they introduce the next tier of gear.

You got absolutely nothing to base this prediction off of. They introduced a new tier, and yet the content is still balanced around fine (Blue) gear, they haven’t introduced any content that is gated by having higher stats than fine gear.

eisberg.2379:

What you call grind, I call being rewarded for playing the game the same way I have been playing it since level 1. I hate grinding, which is why I wont go for Legendary unless by happen chance, but ascended is far from a grind when I can get it through normal game play with no grinding needed. But when we have a lot of people who consider leveling up as grinding, it is no surprise that something that will take more than a few days to get would also be considered as grinding. /shrug

Well I call the farming for mats I have to do, which I would not otherwise do, grinding. Cause I can’t get enough wood and metal ore from what I normally like doing (WvW), or dragonite ore for that matter. I’ve been through the zones before so its not like I’m discovering anything.

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

It will, once they introduce the next tier of gear.

You got absolutely nothing to base this prediction off of.

Did you read the article I linked, or even the part I quoted? No? Didn’t think so.

They introduced a new tier, and yet the content is still balanced around fine (Blue) gear, they haven’t introduced any content that is gated by having higher stats than fine gear.

Fractals are balanced around blue gear? Seriously? Got any more “factoids” to pull from that posterior orifice?

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

What you call grind, I call being rewarded for playing the game the same way I have been playing it since level 1.

You were running fractals from level 1? Really?

eisberg.2379:

I hate grinding, which is why I wont go for Legendary unless by happen chance, but ascended is far from a grind when I can get it through normal game play with no grinding needed. But when we have a lot of people who consider leveling up as grinding, it is no surprise that something that will take more than a few days to get would also be considered as grinding. /shrug

You never played GW1, did you? Even most exotic gear is a grind. Only the crafted stuff isn’t. With ascended, even the crafted stuff is a grind – and time-gated to boot.

Played Guild Wars 1 for many years, since the day it launched, was even a part of their beta events. Again, what you call grind, I don’t.

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

It will, once they introduce the next tier of gear.

You got absolutely nothing to base this prediction off of. They introduced a new tier, and yet the content is still balanced around fine (Blue) gear, they haven’t introduced any content that is gated by having higher stats than fine gear.

Then why introduce the gear if it isn’t needed?

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

It will, once they introduce the next tier of gear.

You got absolutely nothing to base this prediction off of.

Did you read the article I linked, or even the part I quoted? No? Didn’t think so.

They introduced a new tier, and yet the content is still balanced around fine (Blue) gear, they haven’t introduced any content that is gated by having higher stats than fine gear.

Fractals are balanced around blue gear? Seriously? Got any more “factoids” to pull from that posterior orifice?

umm, considering you can go in there at any level, yeah, it is definitely balanced around blue gear.

Julie Yann.5379:

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

It will, once they introduce the next tier of gear.

You got absolutely nothing to base this prediction off of. They introduced a new tier, and yet the content is still balanced around fine (Blue) gear, they haven’t introduced any content that is gated by having higher stats than fine gear.

Then why introduce the gear if it isn’t needed?

Because many people like to get higher numbers, they find that enjoyable.

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

What you call grind, I call being rewarded for playing the game the same way I have been playing it since level 1.

You were running fractals from level 1? Really?

eisberg.2379:

I hate grinding, which is why I wont go for Legendary unless by happen chance, but ascended is far from a grind when I can get it through normal game play with no grinding needed. But when we have a lot of people who consider leveling up as grinding, it is no surprise that something that will take more than a few days to get would also be considered as grinding. /shrug

You never played GW1, did you? Even most exotic gear is a grind. Only the crafted stuff isn’t. With ascended, even the crafted stuff is a grind – and time-gated to boot.

Played Guild Wars 1 for many years, since the day it launched, was even a part of their beta events. Again, what you call grind, I don’t.

Really? You don’t consider doing the same mind-numbing thing over and over a grind? Please, tell us how you define “grind”. Pretty sure your definition is 100% unique.

Also, you still didn’t tell me how you were running fractals from level 1. I want to hear about that as well.

This doesn’t go for everyone, but due to trends I see when I pug dungeons (naively assuming those same bad pugs post here):
If you want to cry about ascended gear being so much better but time consuming to earn, then make a start by using Night/Force+Slaying sigils and POTIONS which will give you a better performance than ascended gear in as little as the literal seconds it takes you to purchase them off of TP.

I haven’t even bothered beginning to craft ascended weapons yet and my very unoptimized Guardian will still auto for 3-7k.

I don’t know why many think the performance gain from ascended will be enough to make them speed demons with the change of a weapon. There’s many more and more effective avenues to increase performance that it seems a lot of people overlook or refuse to acknowledge.

eisberg.2379:

Julie Yann.5379:

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

It will, once they introduce the next tier of gear.

You got absolutely nothing to base this prediction off of. They introduced a new tier, and yet the content is still balanced around fine (Blue) gear, they haven’t introduced any content that is gated by having higher stats than fine gear.

Then why introduce the gear if it isn’t needed?

Because many people like to get higher numbers, they find that enjoyable.

And just as many find it annoying, while many others just couldn’t care less. Meanwhile, the players who DO want “higher numbers” are a lot more likely to quit sooner and be less profitable for the developer, as I already explained above.

eisberg.2379:

Julie Yann.5379:

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

It will, once they introduce the next tier of gear.

You got absolutely nothing to base this prediction off of. They introduced a new tier, and yet the content is still balanced around fine (Blue) gear, they haven’t introduced any content that is gated by having higher stats than fine gear.

Then why introduce the gear if it isn’t needed?

Because many people like to get higher numbers, they find that enjoyable.

A lot of people find it annoying to grind out new gear especially when it is time gated. Many of us already have jobs with menial tasks to do to get rewarded. The last thing we want is a game that offers us menial tasks to do the get rewarded.

1) You missed out a very important sentence in that article which stated ‘we have no plans to introduce another tier if rarity like Ascended’.

2) it depends on how you use it. What happened here is that since there was no statistical progression for doing dungeons, JPs, or anything at all really after 80 since you would’ve got enough money to buy a set of exotics, people didn’t even bother doing them and just said tgere’s nothing to do.

It’s being used as an incentive in this case.

Did Ascended gear make dungeons obselete? I got enough emp stars to make 4 Ascended weapons and I’m still doing them, and I don’t think I’m alone. Having vertical progression doesn’t make content obsolete if you implemented it right.

3) see 1)

4) what worked for GW1 doesn’t nessecarily work for GW2. Like I pointed out, people were leaving after 80. Did they all get their Legendaries and 350-lode skins at 80? No.

DocHolliday.5921:

Did you read the article I linked, or even the part I quoted? No? Didn’t think so.

Forgot to answer this. Did you read it? For one it doesn’t say anything about increasing the difficulty based around new tier of gear. And for another they never said anything about having another tier of gear beyond Ascended, but they did say enhancing the current tiers of gear is something they would do.

Also, that article basically proves the point I have been making, what one person might call a grind, another might not. It is obvious that Anet have the same idea as me of what a grind is and what a gear treadmill are. So now it becomes a debate of subjective definitions.

Xae Isareth.1364:

1) You missed out a very important sentence in that article which stated ‘we have no plans to introduce another tier if rarity like Ascended’.

2) it depends on how you use it. What happened here is that since there was no statistical progression for doing dungeons, JPs, or anything at all really after 80 since you would’ve got enough money to buy a set of exotics, people didn’t even bother doing them and just said tgere’s nothing to do.

It’s being used as an incentive in this case.

Did Ascended gear make dungeons obselete? I got enough emp stars to make 4 Ascended weapons and I’m still doing them, and I don’t think I’m alone. Having vertical progression doesn’t make content obsolete if you implemented it right.

3) see 1)

4) what worked for GW1 doesn’t nessecarily work for GW2. Like I pointed out, people were leaving after 80. Did they all get their Legendaries and 350-lode skins at 80? No.

Some left cause of ascended and many will leave cause they are just camping GW2 until another worthy graphically pleasing MMO is released, there are several on the horizon. ATM Anet is spitting on many of the loyal GW1 fans that fed them for the past 7 or 8 years and would have kept feeding them for another 7 or 8 years.

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

What you call grind, I call being rewarded for playing the game the same way I have been playing it since level 1.

You were running fractals from level 1? Really?

eisberg.2379:

I hate grinding, which is why I wont go for Legendary unless by happen chance, but ascended is far from a grind when I can get it through normal game play with no grinding needed. But when we have a lot of people who consider leveling up as grinding, it is no surprise that something that will take more than a few days to get would also be considered as grinding. /shrug

You never played GW1, did you? Even most exotic gear is a grind. Only the crafted stuff isn’t. With ascended, even the crafted stuff is a grind – and time-gated to boot.

Played Guild Wars 1 for many years, since the day it launched, was even a part of their beta events. Again, what you call grind, I don’t.

Really? You don’t consider doing the same mind-numbing thing over and over a grind? Please, tell us how you define “grind”. Pretty sure your definition is 100% unique.

Also, you still didn’t tell me how you were running fractals from level 1. I want to hear about that as well.

Really? You are going to hung up on my level 1 comment. Ok, did I say that I did every activity at every single level? Nope. I would go level up my crafting every 10 levels, go do activities (survival, crab toss, ect) every 5 levels or so, started Fractals at about level 15, been doing WvWvW since level 2, been doing personal storyline since level 1.

I haven’t been doing the same mind numbing thing over and over again, so no grinding at all. I practically do every thing possible in this game except for sPvP/tPvP, I mix it up.

My definition of grind is obviously the same as Anets, read the article you posted earlier to figure that one out. So obviously not unique at all.

You’ve left, some others left. Butit could also have made even more stay or join the game. No one apart from Anet in a few months knows.

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

Julie Yann.5379:

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

It will, once they introduce the next tier of gear.

You got absolutely nothing to base this prediction off of. They introduced a new tier, and yet the content is still balanced around fine (Blue) gear, they haven’t introduced any content that is gated by having higher stats than fine gear.

Then why introduce the gear if it isn’t needed?

Because many people like to get higher numbers, they find that enjoyable.

And just as many find it annoying, while many others just couldn’t care less. Meanwhile, the players who DO want “higher numbers” are a lot more likely to quit sooner and be less profitable for the developer, as I already explained above.

I understand that grind is a subjective word with people having a different definition of what a grind is. Also, you do not have any data about what kind of players have been leaving this game and the reason why, so your last part of the comment is nothing more than an assumption on your part.

Vanthian.9267:

This is not whining due to how to earn the gear. It is the principle of the matter. When a game is advertised as a horizontal progression game like it predecessor you don’t add a vertical jump in the game 3 months after lunch and try to claim it was on the table to begin with.

I don’t ever remember then advertising it as a Horizontal progression game with no vertical progression. In the article that another posted above from the Eurogamer, they even stated they never said there would be no vertical progression. Looks like to me people made assumptions and somehow they turned into “facts”

It was never advertised as a horizontal progression game. All they said was that you dont need to grind, which is still true because as far as unaware if, apart from very high level fractals, there’s no gear-checks in game.

Xae Isareth.1364:

1) You missed out a very important sentence in that article which stated ‘we have no plans to introduce another tier if rarity like Ascended’.

No, I didn’t. They also said they weren’t going to introduce any new tiers after the start of the game. Then they put in Ascended. Earlier this year (after the article I linked) they said they had no plans to introduce more new tiers this year. That part I can believe. The new tiers are, in fact, not coming this year. But they are coming. If you truly believe otherwise, you are a fool.

2) it depends on how you use it. What happened here is that since there was no statistical progression for doing dungeons, JPs, or anything at all really after 80 since you would’ve got enough money to buy a set of exotics, people didn’t even bother doing them and just said tgere’s nothing to do.

What? That’s not even coherent.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Did Ascended gear make dungeons obselete? I got enough emp stars to make 4 Ascended weapons and I’m still doing them, and I don’t think I’m alone. Having vertical progression doesn’t make content obsolete if you implemented it right.

Even WoW didn’t make anything obsolete in the first 14 months. When you can get a full set of ascended gear, yes, you will have no need for exotic gear and all those instances will be obsoleted. That’s coming some time next year.

Xae Isareth.1364:

4) what worked for GW1 doesn’t nessecarily work for GW2.

Wow, what a vague and pointless statement.

Like I pointed out, people were leaving after 80. Did they all get their Legendaries and 350-lode skins at 80? No.

Again, what a vague and pointless statement. Were you trying to go somewhere with this babble?

Xae Isareth.1364:

It was never advertised as a horizontal progression game. All they said was that you dont need to grind, which is still true because as far as unaware if, apart from very high level fractals, there’s no gear-checks in game.

Wow. Just wow. Even in that article I just linked, they’re still advertising it as a horizontal progression game.

We do intend to focus on horizontal

Did you miss that part? The double-talk in that article is just fantastic. This is the kind of trouble you get yourself in when you try to advertise two conflicting features. It’s truly disappointing coming from them though, because they’re the one developer that actually got it right the first time. But instead of following on their own success and learning from others’ mistakes, they instead decided to repeat those mistakes. It’s just amazing.

DocHolliday.5921:

Xae Isareth.1364:

1) You missed out a very important sentence in that article which stated ‘we have no plans to introduce another tier if rarity like Ascended’.

No, I didn’t. They also said they weren’t going to introduce any new tiers after the start of the game. Then they put in Ascended. Earlier this year (after the article I linked) they said they had no plans to introduce more new tiers this year. That part I can believe. The new tiers are, in fact, not coming this year. But they are coming. If you truly believe otherwise, you are a fool.

2) it depends on how you use it. What happened here is that since there was no statistical progression for doing dungeons, JPs, or anything at all really after 80 since you would’ve got enough money to buy a set of exotics, people didn’t even bother doing them and just said tgere’s nothing to do.

What? That’s not even coherent.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Did Ascended gear make dungeons obselete? I got enough emp stars to make 4 Ascended weapons and I’m still doing them, and I don’t think I’m alone. Having vertical progression doesn’t make content obsolete if you implemented it right.

Even WoW didn’t make anything obsolete in the first 14 months. When you can get a full set of ascended gear, yes, you will have no need for exotic gear and all those instances will be obsoleted. That’s coming some time next year.

Xae Isareth.1364:

4) what worked for GW1 doesn’t nessecarily work for GW2.

Wow, what a vague and pointless statement.

Like I pointed out, people were leaving after 80. Did they all get their Legendaries and 350-lode skins at 80? No.

Again, what a vague and pointless statement. Were you trying to go somewhere with this babble?

Provide proof of them saying they were not going to introduce any new tiers after the start of the game.

DocHolliday.5921:

Xae Isareth.1364:

It was never advertised as a horizontal progression game. All they said was that you dont need to grind, which is still true because as far as unaware if, apart from very high level fractals, there’s no gear-checks in game.

Wow. Just wow. Even in that article I just linked, they’re still advertising it as a horizontal progression game.

We do intend to focus on horizontal

Did you miss that part? The double-talk in that article is just fantastic.

Again, did you miss the part where they said they never said there would be no vertical progression? You going to take out one phrase out of the whole article and ignore the rest and still say they are advertising it as a Horizontal progression game, despite the article didn’t say that at all? Now I know where your so called “facts” come from, gross misrepresentation of what was actually said.

eisberg.2379:

Provide proof of them saying they were not going to introduce any new tiers after the start of the game.

I would, but I can’t, because they removed the content after the ascended gear fiasco to hide the fact that they broke their word.

But here’s the link for you, enjoy!

http://www.arena.net/blog/the-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

Xae Isareth.1364:

It was never advertised as a horizontal progression game. All they said was that you dont need to grind, which is still true because as far as unaware if, apart from very high level fractals, there’s no gear-checks in game.

Wow. Just wow. Even in that article I just linked, they’re still advertising it as a horizontal progression game.

We do intend to focus on horizontal

Did you miss that part? The double-talk in that article is just fantastic.

Again, did you miss the part where they said they never said there would be no vertical progression? You going to take out one phrase out of the whole article and ignore the rest and still say they are advertising it as a Horizontal progression game, despite the article didn’t say that at all? Now I know where your so called “facts” come from, gross misrepresentation of what was actually said.

I won’t dignify that with a response.

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

Provide proof of them saying they were not going to introduce any new tiers after the start of the game.

I would, but I can’t, because they removed the content after the ascended gear fiasco to hide the fact that they broke their word.

But here’s the link for you, enjoy!

http://www.arena.net/blog/the-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2

http://web.archive.org/web/20120709210637/http://www.arena.net/blog/the-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2

There you go, and now point to me where in that article they stated there would be no new tier of gear when the game starts? Cause I read it, and it does not say that at all, doesn’t even talk about gear at all.

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

Provide proof of them saying they were not going to introduce any new tiers after the start of the game.

I would, but I can’t, because they removed the content after the ascended gear fiasco to hide the fact that they broke their word.

But here’s the link for you, enjoy!

http://www.arena.net/blog/the-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2

http://web.archive.org/web/20120709210637/http://www.arena.net/blog/the-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2

There you go, and now point to me where in that article they stated there would be no new tier of gear when the game starts? Cause I read it, and it does not say that at all, doesn’t even talk about gear at all.

Ok sure, they never explicitly stated “WE WILL NOT PUT IN NEW TIERS OF GEAR”. But they were constantly saying “there will be no gear grind!” That was deliberately misleading, and GW1 fans were obviously expected that to interpret that as “no new gear tiers”. They certainly made sure we can never trust them again about not putting things in the game we don’t want.

Enjoy this thread about what people initially thought about ascended gear. Lots of people felt betrayed. It’s clear they got their “no gear grind” message across. It’s equally clear it was a straight-up lie.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Thoughts-on-Ascended-Gear-Merged-threads/first

I’ll put a few good examples here.

Less than three months in, and the power creep begins. WTK*, guys? I though the end game was suppose to be about having fun and chasing cosmetics, not grinding out gear upgrades.

*what the kitten

And the gear grind starts… Time to find another game it seems

Yea I read that and was like “oh… no… no no no no for kitten’s sake no”.
I don’t know why would they do that but… I don’t know. It makes no sense, they basically driven all the people that wanted the gear treadmill away from GW2, and IMHO it’s a good thing. And now that? Seems kinda weird.
Well I guess we’ll have to wait and see… But I’m watching you aNet. Please, don’t go off and brake my heart.

(We all know how that turned out. Heart broken.)

Xae Isareth.1364:

It was never advertised as a horizontal progression game.

Sure it was.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview

Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?
Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game <snip>
perm

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

Provide proof of them saying they were not going to introduce any new tiers after the start of the game.

I would, but I can’t, because they removed the content after the ascended gear fiasco to hide the fact that they broke their word.

But here’s the link for you, enjoy!

http://www.arena.net/blog/the-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2

http://web.archive.org/web/20120709210637/http://www.arena.net/blog/the-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2

There you go, and now point to me where in that article they stated there would be no new tier of gear when the game starts? Cause I read it, and it does not say that at all, doesn’t even talk about gear at all.

Ok sure, they never explicitly stated “WE WILL NOT PUT IN NEW TIERS OF GEAR”. But they were constantly saying “there will be no gear grind!” That was deliberately misleading, and GW1 fans were obviously expected that to interpret that as “no new gear tiers”. They certainly made sure we can never trust them again about not putting things in the game we don’t want.

Enjoy this thread about what people initially thought about ascended gear. Lots of people felt betrayed. It’s clear they got their “no gear grind” message across. It’s equally clear it was a straight-up lie.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Thoughts-on-Ascended-Gear-Merged-threads/first

I’ll put a few good examples here.

Less than three months in, and the power creep begins. WTK*, guys? I though the end game was suppose to be about having fun and chasing cosmetics, not grinding out gear upgrades.

*what the kitten

And the gear grind starts… Time to find another game it seems

Yea I read that and was like “oh… no… no no no no for kitten’s sake no”.
I don’t know why would they do that but… I don’t know. It makes no sense, they basically driven all the people that wanted the gear treadmill away from GW2, and IMHO it’s a good thing. And now that? Seems kinda weird.
Well I guess we’ll have to wait and see… But I’m watching you aNet. Please, don’t go off and brake my heart.

(We all know how that turned out. Heart broken.)

Did they lie, or is it simply a difference of opinion of what a gear grind is? What a grind is absolutely going to be a matter of opinion. Yours and others opinion differ than Anets and others opinion.

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

Provide proof of them saying they were not going to introduce any new tiers after the start of the game.

I would, but I can’t, because they removed the content after the ascended gear fiasco to hide the fact that they broke their word.

But here’s the link for you, enjoy!

http://www.arena.net/blog/the-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2

http://web.archive.org/web/20120709210637/http://www.arena.net/blog/the-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2

There you go, and now point to me where in that article they stated there would be no new tier of gear when the game starts? Cause I read it, and it does not say that at all, doesn’t even talk about gear at all.

Ok sure, they never explicitly stated “WE WILL NOT PUT IN NEW TIERS OF GEAR”. But they were constantly saying “there will be no gear grind!” That was deliberately misleading, and GW1 fans were obviously expected that to interpret that as “no new gear tiers”. They certainly made sure we can never trust them again about not putting things in the game we don’t want.

Enjoy this thread about what people initially thought about ascended gear. Lots of people felt betrayed. It’s clear they got their “no gear grind” message across. It’s equally clear it was a straight-up lie.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Thoughts-on-Ascended-Gear-Merged-threads/first

I’ll put a few good examples here.

Less than three months in, and the power creep begins. WTK*, guys? I though the end game was suppose to be about having fun and chasing cosmetics, not grinding out gear upgrades.

*what the kitten

And the gear grind starts… Time to find another game it seems

Yea I read that and was like “oh… no… no no no no for kitten’s sake no”.
I don’t know why would they do that but… I don’t know. It makes no sense, they basically driven all the people that wanted the gear treadmill away from GW2, and IMHO it’s a good thing. And now that? Seems kinda weird.
Well I guess we’ll have to wait and see… But I’m watching you aNet. Please, don’t go off and brake my heart.

(We all know how that turned out. Heart broken.)

Did they lie, or is it simply a difference of opinion of what a gear grind is? What a grind is absolutely going to be a matter of opinion. Yours and others opinion differ than Anets and others opinion.

Kill these same meta bosses over and over again to collect 500 of this. Run these same dungeons over and over again to collect 500 of that. Run the champ train for a while to collect 500 of those. Now you either farm gold to buy the wood and metals or go scour the countryside to farm nodes over and over again to get a bunch of everything else. Remember to craft some pieces everyday cause you can only craft 1 a day and in 5 (if you have no life) days you will get 1 ascended weapon. Lather, rinse, repeat as needed. Nope, doesn’t sound like a grind at all.

Rooks Zaer.5846:

Xae Isareth.1364:

It was never advertised as a horizontal progression game.

Sure it was.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview

Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?
Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game <snip>
perm

And even casual gamers can get ascended pretty easily. They purposely made sure it was reasonably with in reach of casual gamers.

eisberg.2379:

Vanthian.9267:

This is not whining due to how to earn the gear. It is the principle of the matter. When a game is advertised as a horizontal progression game like it predecessor you don’t add a vertical jump in the game 3 months after lunch and try to claim it was on the table to begin with.

I don’t ever remember then advertising it as a Horizontal progression game with no vertical progression. In the article that another posted above from the Eurogamer, they even stated they never said there would be no vertical progression. Looks like to me people made assumptions and somehow they turned into “facts”

Very false. They did advertise this game as a horizontal end game. They did so for years. They discussed and commented on this while it was still in the very early alpha stages of what they called “Guild Wars: Utopia”. I waited years for this game to come out and kept up with every bit of news as I possibly could. It was advertised as a skill based game with the end game focusing on a visual grind not stat grind.

Then 3 months into the game (note this is the time a vast majority of the pro player base has left ~aka the old super leet Guild Wars 1 guilds~) they completely gave up with what they had touted for 2 years plus and just started doing whatever would make the most money.

Tada temporary bs living story crap. Made just to add more things to the gem store to get you to buy them. You can not even being to say that the living story updates are even remotely decent in terms of game play and lore. They are nothing more than short zerg fests from here to there. The only update that had any remotely decent things in it was the Pavilion and even then, it was horribly done.

Lets end with the biggest pile that this game has, BUGS. Bugs from the early stages of BETA that have not been fixed. I don’t know about you guys, but I would be severely embarrassed if I made a game and just left it completely in beta/alpha stage. Just to name a few that have not been fixed since the launch of the game.

-Warrior Fast Hands Bug: When dropping banners via weapon switching, your weapon swap will go on cool down without actually swapping your weapons.

-Rush: Does not track correctly. Can not hit a target that simply moves left to right.
(oh, they updated it to make it smoother? yeah didn’t fix the problem. Words are different from actions.)

-Eathshaker: Does not hit targets who are slightly higher than player character. As in 0.001 units higher on the hill.
etc..

The list goes on and on for multiple classes for multiple different things. Lets not forget that slayer potions didn’t actually work for a couple of months and instead of giving you the 10% bonus to your damage, you got a +10% bonus to taking damage, yay!

Stop trying to white knight this game. There are huge problems even if you care to realize them or not.

Xae Isareth.1364:

It was never advertised as a horizontal progression game. All they said was that you dont need to grind, which is still true because as far as unaware if, apart from very high level fractals, there’s no gear-checks in game.

See the post above.

Vanthian.9267:

eisberg.2379:

Vanthian.9267:

This is not whining due to how to earn the gear. It is the principle of the matter. When a game is advertised as a horizontal progression game like it predecessor you don’t add a vertical jump in the game 3 months after lunch and try to claim it was on the table to begin with.

I don’t ever remember then advertising it as a Horizontal progression game with no vertical progression. In the article that another posted above from the Eurogamer, they even stated they never said there would be no vertical progression. Looks like to me people made assumptions and somehow they turned into “facts”

Very false. They did advertise this game as a horizontal end game. They did so for years. They discussed and commented on this while it was still in the very early alpha stages of what they called “Guild Wars: Utopia”. I waited years for this game to come out and kept up with every bit of news as I possibly could. It was advertised as a skill based game with the end game focusing on a visual grind not stat grind.

Then 3 months into the game (note this is the time a vast majority of the pro player base has left ~aka the old super leet Guild Wars 1 guilds~) they completely gave up with what they had touted for 2 years plus and just started doing whatever would make the most money.

Tada temporary bs living story crap. Made just to add more things to the gem store to get you to buy them. You can not even being to say that the living story updates are even remotely decent in terms of game play and lore. They are nothing more than short zerg fests from here to there. The only update that had any remotely decent things in it was the Pavilion and even then, it was horribly done.

Lets end with the biggest pile that this game has, BUGS. Bugs from the early stages of BETA that have not been fixed. I don’t know about you guys, but I would be severely embarrassed if I made a game and just left it completely in beta/alpha stage. Just to name a few that have not been fixed since the launch of the game.

-Warrior Fast Hands Bug: When dropping banners via weapon switching, your weapon swap will go on cool down without actually swapping your weapons.

-Rush: Does not track correctly. Can not hit a target that simply moves left to right.
(oh, they updated it to make it smoother? yeah didn’t fix the problem. Words are different from actions.)

-Eathshaker: Does not hit targets who are slightly higher than player character. As in 0.001 units higher on the hill.
etc..

The list goes on and on for multiple classes for multiple different things. Lets not forget that slayer potions didn’t actually work for a couple of months and instead of giving you the 10% bonus to your damage, you got a +10% bonus to taking damage, yay!

Stop trying to white knight this game. There are huge problems even if you care to realize them or not.

Sadly, I can’t give this post all the +1s it deserves. So I’ll just quote it so people have the chance to read it again.