Guild Wars 2

There are many complaints going around about how the combat is too bland due to the lack of skills and variety in traits & builds (I.E. a lack of depth). I personally don’t have an issue with it, but I am still curious.

So let me ask you guys. How could ArenaNet expand on it’s current skills system? No this doesn’t mean making it like GW1, or by having single swappable skills for weapons (like utilities) – that would defeat the purpose of “expand on”.

Here’s my take:

What if we were able to pick between say two different sets of skills per weapon? Additionally, what if we could do the same for traits?

The kicker to this system, of course, is that this kind of choice wouldn’t be able to take place ‘on the fly’ – to prevent a massive imbalance during combat. So one example would be to remake the hero’s skill panel so people have to choose between skill sets for weapons that are equipped. Furthermore, the process of doing so would require some kind of vendor-ing that can only take place when in a major city or heart of the mists training area etc. Similar to resetting traits basically.

That could give more depth to players without taking away from the current system.

I don’t find it “too bland” either.

Instead of screwing with the current combat system, I’d much rather see better scripted mobs/bosses that require a more tactical and coördinated group effort. I love the fact that, even though the combat does have plenty of debt (by picking the right combination of playstel, weapons/skills and traits), it is very tactile, making combat without GUI viable.

Chess is a game where pieces only move in 6 ways, but the possiblities are endless. The combat system is deeper than a lot of people realize.

Vayne.8563:

Chess is a game where pieces only move in 6 ways, but the possiblities are endless. The combat system is deeper than a lot of people realize.

Chess is the perfect example to prove how the combat system lacks depth, imo.
(or the people you mention didn’t play GW2 extensively enough yet to already know all the combat subtelties)

The current system is ok for any casual gamer that don’t mind repeating the same button sequence, the same 3 builds for 6 monthes straight (aka people who don’t play that much).
But for any “traditional” mmo gamer, who is used to play 30-50 hours per week, it can grow really, really old very quickly. The current system lacks choices.

kineticdamage.6279:

Vayne.8563:

Chess is a game where pieces only move in 6 ways, but the possiblities are endless. The combat system is deeper than a lot of people realize.

Chess is the perfect example to prove how the combat system lacks depth, imo.
(or the people you mention didn’t play the game extensively yet)

The current system is ok for any casual gamer that don’t mind repeating the same button sequence, the same 3 builds for 6 monthes straight (aka people who don’t play that much).
But for any “traditional” mmo gamer, who is used to play 30-50 hours per week, it can grow really, really old very quickly. The current system lacks choices.

I think there’s more than enough MMO’s catering to the jobless already.

Goettel.4389:

I think there’s more than enough MMO’s catering to the jobless already.

30 hours per week = 4 hours per day. Or 8 p.m to 11 p.m + week ends.
50 hours per week = 6-8 hours per day. Or 8 p.m to 1 a.m + week ends.
Unless you’re working 80 hours per week, I don’t see where it would be a jobless activity.
Nice try though.

edit : and even though … even for a guy who is playing 2 hours per day, for 6 monthes every day, so few choices does grow old.

kineticdamage.6279:

Vayne.8563:

Chess is a game where pieces only move in 6 ways, but the possiblities are endless. The combat system is deeper than a lot of people realize.

Chess is the perfect example to prove how the combat system lacks depth, imo.
(or the people you mention didn’t play GW2 extensively enough yet to already know all the combat subtelties)

The current system is ok for any casual gamer that don’t mind repeating the same button sequence, the same 3 builds for 6 monthes straight (aka people who don’t play that much).
But for any “traditional” mmo gamer, who is used to play 30-50 hours per week, it can grow really, really old very quickly. The current system lacks choices.

Strange, I play a ton, and I’m not bored. Seems to me, maybe it’s you.

Because I swap weapons a lot. I don’t just use one weapon. That’s part of the system. I swap out utility skills at need too. Some are useful in certain situations, some in others. Same for major traits. The stuff is there. If you don’t use it you can hardly fault the system.

Vayne.8563:

kineticdamage.6279:

Vayne.8563:

Chess is a game where pieces only move in 6 ways, but the possiblities are endless. The combat system is deeper than a lot of people realize.

Chess is the perfect example to prove how the combat system lacks depth, imo.
(or the people you mention didn’t play GW2 extensively enough yet to already know all the combat subtelties)

The current system is ok for any casual gamer that don’t mind repeating the same button sequence, the same 3 builds for 6 monthes straight (aka people who don’t play that much).
But for any “traditional” mmo gamer, who is used to play 30-50 hours per week, it can grow really, really old very quickly. The current system lacks choices.

Strange, I play a ton, and I’m not bored. Seems to me, maybe it’s you.

Because I swap weapons a lot. I don’t just use one weapon. That’s part of the system. I swap out utility skills at need too. Some are useful in certain situations, some in others. Same for major traits. The stuff is there. If you don’t use it you can hardly fault the system.

Then to each one his own needs

Of course I swap weapons a lot, utility too, and I abused group combos with friends as soon as the game was released. I also spent hours on web-based trait calculator to milk all the possible configurations. But still, I didn’t feel surprised by the system anymore back in December.
It’s only me though, and I don’t generalize my case …. But I would be surprised if all the players who tried the game in september (including the ones who stopped, indeed) did all feel the system was as fresh as at release, monthes later.

kineticdamage.6279:

The current system is ok for any casual gamer that don’t mind repeating the same button sequence, the same 3 builds for 6 monthes straight (aka people who don’t play that much).
But for any “traditional” mmo gamer, who is used to play 30-50 hours per week, it can grow really, really old very quickly. The current system lacks choices.

I can understand how there are far fewer skills we can slot compared to GW1.
On the other side, you could only change skills in GW1 in an outpost. You would be stuck playing the same skill rotation for a) an entire zone, and sometimes the one after it, or b) the entire dungeon. At the moment we can slot out utilities any time we are out of combat, and change five of our skills within combat.

Also, the game in it’s current state maybe very comparable to early Prophecies in number of skills and variations available. That is, GW1 skill range within 12 months of release may be quite similar to the way GW2 is now.

Of course GW2 is still very different to both GW1 and other MMOs in the skill range. Funnily enough my eyes tend to glaze over when I look at the button set-ups of WoW, Rift, LoTRO, etc. Soooooo many skills that you’d learn to pass-over because you weren’t spec’d for them and wouldn’t waste the activity-per-second count on. I’d end up playing with 2-3 skill bars at the bottom, 2 on the right, and all slots full of things I’d easily forget I even had available or kept them there for that “just in case” moment that’d pass before it mattered.
I have come to really appreciate the tighter, slimmer UI and skill bar range of GW2.

FacesOfMu.3561:

Funnily enough my eyes tend to glaze over when I look at the button set-ups of WoW, Rift, LoTRO, etc. Soooooo many skills that you’d learn to pass-over because you weren’t spec’d for them and wouldn’t waste the activity-per-second count on. I’d end up playing with 2-3 skill bars at the bottom, 2 on the right, and all slots full of things I’d easily forget I even had available or kept them there for that “just in case” moment that’d pass before it mattered.
I have come to really appreciate the tighter, slimmer UI and skill bar range of GW2.

But remember that most people here are not game designers
When one user asks for “moar skillz plz”, if you try to see where the complain is coming from, it’s just a call for more choice. “Moar skillz plz” is the only other way of extending choices they know about, because that’s how other games did.

But … more choice doesn’t necessarly mean more skill slots. A common suggestion over here was to have several skill sets per slot, and per weapon. That would look like having to chose what skill you want to put in slot 1 for the Dagger / dagger thief weaponset. Just like utility skills.

Another way to extend choice is traits, and skills intrications. Like creating a new condition when selecting [Trait #45], that would give your sword skill#3 a completely different meaning (the most common example I have in mind is the typical "if skill#3 is a critical, boosts skill#4 damage by xx %).

Etc, etc…

People should not limit their understanding of a complain to the complain itself. It often hides a deeper problem.

more choices might be nice for those who play a lot, but no matter how many, it won’t prevent them from choosing same #2 spam. and also, what you are suggesting would make game less friendly for new players.

Saulius.8430:

more choices might be nice for those who play a lot, but no matter how many, it won’t prevent them from choosing same #2 spam.

The #2 spam is another problem, yes. (and it should be treated equally)

Saulius.8430:

and also, what you are suggesting would make game less friendly for new players.

That feeling you got is the immediate consequence of a concept, but that doesn’t mean it cannot be worked around.

One example : to avoid making it less friendly for new players, you could lock those skill slot choices until lvl 40. Just like you lock deeper traits.

Remember, we’re not gamedesigners. We are limited by what we played in the past, and by our non-experience in designing. Everything can be worked around.

kineticdamage.6279:

Vayne.8563:

kineticdamage.6279:

Vayne.8563:

Chess is a game where pieces only move in 6 ways, but the possiblities are endless. The combat system is deeper than a lot of people realize.

Chess is the perfect example to prove how the combat system lacks depth, imo.
(or the people you mention didn’t play GW2 extensively enough yet to already know all the combat subtelties)

The current system is ok for any casual gamer that don’t mind repeating the same button sequence, the same 3 builds for 6 monthes straight (aka people who don’t play that much).
But for any “traditional” mmo gamer, who is used to play 30-50 hours per week, it can grow really, really old very quickly. The current system lacks choices.

Strange, I play a ton, and I’m not bored. Seems to me, maybe it’s you.

Because I swap weapons a lot. I don’t just use one weapon. That’s part of the system. I swap out utility skills at need too. Some are useful in certain situations, some in others. Same for major traits. The stuff is there. If you don’t use it you can hardly fault the system.

Then to each one his own needs

Of course I swap weapons a lot, utility too, and I abused group combos with friends as soon as the game was released. I also spent hours on web-based trait calculator to milk all the possible configurations. But still, I didn’t feel surprised by the system anymore back in December.
It’s only me though, and I don’t generalize my case …. But I would be surprised if all the players who tried the game in september (including the ones who stopped, indeed) did all feel the system was as fresh as at release, monthes later.

I’m with Vayne, never gets old for me. I like the simplicity while still having sufficient choices where there isn’t a lot of redundancy and completely useless or inferior skills. I’m switching weapons and utilities a lot and I really love the clean UI. I’m not really baffled that a game gets boring when played 50 hours a week though. WoW became boring quickly too when I did that. And I consider it kind of insulting to be called a casual gamer because I have a life and play less (maybe 10 hours a week), I’m probably more of a “traditional” MMO player than most others will ever be, actually playing GW2 as an MMORPG and being a long time Ultima Online player. And everyday I can witness what understanding of game mechanics those “core” gamers with full exo equip, legendary and a star next to their name have, not being able to dodge a single attack at the temples or asking in chat what a combo is.

FacesOfMu.3561:

Also, the game in it’s current state maybe very comparable to early Prophecies in number of skills and variations available. That is, GW1 skill range within 12 months of release may be quite similar to the way GW2 is now.

This is just not true. Even though the overall number of skills might be similar, the ability to combine them is severely limited compared to gw1. Even if there is a similar overall number of skills to begin with, locking skills to weapons makes for fewer
choices, 1 profession only means less possible interaction between them, and locking damage types to equipment (power vs. cond damage) makes for fewer choices still. These are the foundations of the system they used in gw2, the potential for growth is much, much smaller then what gw1 had.

Also, there is no build variety because the system was intentionally simplified, so I doubt we will ever see any true depth in this game. This game originally had the dual profession system gw1 had, and then they threw it away to cater to the AAA audience.

No matter how much you might want it, the game has to bow down to the lowest common denominator to make it accessible at all costs, i.e. casuals and noobs shall be artificially prevented from gimping themselves as much as possible, so the customization options are inherently limited. I too would like this to change, but I fear it just won’t happen.

Iruwen.3164:

And I consider it kind of insulting to be called a casual gamer because I have a life and play less (maybe 10 hours a week)

You’re the one finding it insulting to be a casual gamer, not me
Let’s get away from paranoia and face the facts : a casual gamer (or a person who doesn’t play that much, in other words) will certainly have less chances to be bored by a game under a 6 monthes period than a hardcore gamer.

wintermute.4096:

No matter how much you might want it, the game has to bow down to the lowest common denominator to make it accessible at all costs, i.e. casuals and noobs shall be artificially prevented from gimping themselves as much as possible, so the customization options are inherently limited. I too would like this to change, but I fear it just won’t happen.

On a sidenote, like I mentionned in another topic, “growing the audience” is really what kills all the games I once loved.

It all depends what class you’re playing. Some classes are just way funner than others or have a lot more choices(IE decent traits). Others though lack good traits, cohesive builds, or a fun mechanic. The damage on a warrior is amazing but the gameplay is so incredibly boring.

kineticdamage.6279:

But … more choice doesn’t necessarly mean more skill slots. A common suggestion over here was to have several skill sets per slot, and per weapon. That would look like having to chose what skill you want to put in slot 1 for the Dagger / dagger thief weaponset. Just like utility skills.

Another way to extend choice is traits, and skills intrications. Like creating a new condition when selecting [Trait #45], that would give your sword skill#3 a completely different meaning (the most common example I have in mind is the typical "if skill#3 is a critical, boosts skill#4 damage by xx %).

I think I misread your post to suggest a 10-skill skill bar is unsatisfactory. I think I understand you better now and I agree, there are a lot of wonderful ideas across this forum on ways to introduce more horizontal progress in the combat system. I have a feeling they’ll implement something even further to flavour and enhance skills and builds, and like you said, I reckon it’ll be implemented to begin in that strange 20-40 level period where profession building seems to dull. The game is so young and has lots of good possibility about it’s future.

wintermute.4096:

This is just not true. Even though the overall number of skills might be similar, the ability to combine them is severely limited compared to gw1. Even if there is a similar overall number of skills to begin with, locking skills to weapons makes for fewer
choices, 1 profession only means less possible interaction between them, and locking damage types to equipment (power vs. cond damage) makes for fewer choices still. These are the foundations of the system they used in gw2, the potential for growth is much, much smaller then what gw1 had.

Also, there is no build variety because the system was intentionally simplified, so I doubt we will ever see any true depth in this game. This game originally had the dual profession system gw1 had, and then they threw it away to cater to the AAA audience.

No matter how much you might want it, the game has to bow down to the lowest common denominator to make it accessible at all costs, i.e. casuals and noobs shall be artificially prevented from gimping themselves as much as possible, so the customization options are inherently limited. I too would like this to change, but I fear it just won’t happen.

See above, I think GW2 will reach much above what it is now. (It’s still just my opinion tho! )

They don’t need to change the skill system, but adding new skills in the future like they did with GW1 expansions is kinda expected.

I guess we wouldn’t be so active on skill / traits evolution topics if we had at least a small feedback from the devs about their short term plans.
Really, I can dig all their interventions all day, I could find flows and flows of words about everything (lore, content, dungeons, bosses, items, services, etc), but nothing about skill / traits evolution. What comes ?