Guild Wars 2

So people that are not part of those “elite groups” that are doing said instanced fights should never be able to do it or even see the fight?

There is currently a grand total of 2 of these fights in the game (Tequatl and Wurm or 3 if you want to count the Marionette.) out of how many?
50?
100?
200?

They should never mechanically lock people out of content, which they would if you were required to be part of a pre-made large group.

It wouldn’t be locked, there is a dungeon finder for a reason, if you are gonna do it with pugs anyway you might aswell be able to do it with some of your guildies, i’ve been on 3 of this events and i coulnd’t play with anyone on all those times. The marionnete event needs 125 persons to work, that is too much lagg for those that don’t have high end pcs, not to mention i don’t generally have the time to wait 40 mins in the same spot just to kill a boss. They could do instaced raids (that you could find with the looking for group) with with a reduced number of people and lock the rewards for every x hours like they do it now. Maybe for those elite raiders have a some kind of legendary difficulty setting (?) anyway i don’t like the current system, i think it has too many flaws

Please, ArenaNet, do not make large-scale ‘raid-type’ content instanced. I prefer it the way it is. Thank you.

I’m against instanced content too. It leads to elitism. It leads to problems.

You must have seen the threads of people who only want zerkers, only want this build only what that build.

This game was designed so people could play different builds. Some types of players, rangers, necros, engies, have trouble getting invited to groups. But in open world content, they can play what they want and still participate.

This is much better for me than being dictated too by the current meta exactly how I should play the game.

There are plenty of games for people to play instanced raids. I sure hope this won’t be another one of them.

Why not both? Instanced raids AND large scale world bosses?

Not with these overflows no..

I agree with the OP. Open world raid events are a poor concept. Guilds are making the most of poor design by
- investing long periods of time in preparation or just waiting afk
- manipulating an overflow system that works against them
- excluding other players by using overflows
- using external voice software since the facility is not in game
- using external videos for tactics since there are insufficient directions within game

Open world access can only mean that players are meant to be able to join in to these events anywhere, anytime. However players without all the external support listed above are not going to get anything except a bad experience from the world bosses.

I would happily support open world raid instances, IF THEY WORKED, wich they don’t. I can’t play with the persons i want, i have too much fps issues and i can’t complete my achivements because of other persons. I really like the idea but due to the execution i think i would prefer a try in a instanced raid type thing, even if it took tons of people now, but that we were able to queue up and only play with those people(even if it is 70+) atleast it would solve the problem of having to wait for 2 hours in the same place so you can actually play in your server.

I agree with the OP. Currently as it is you have 90 sheeple stampeding around with 10-20 organized guild members essentially trying to herd them. They do all the work but then the sheeple get the rewards.

Instance these as 10-20 man raids type content and you will solve 90% of the problems. They only people that will complain are the ones who aren’t competent enough to beat it and they shouldn’t be getting rewarded anyway until they learn the encounter and are competent enough to complete it.

Things aren’t working well the way it’s implemented atm, .. I really really hope Anet is looking at fixing this. But I doubt it, since they added a new boss in the same way as the old.
Overflow is something we’ll probably just have to deal with.

Do people in overflow get to communicate with others in overflow? I’m not sure, and I haven’t noticed anyone else being around, unless those left in each overflow are very very few in numbers?

It wouldn’t be so bad if there were multiple overflows and people could group up in them all the same. Maybe with an option "join map or stay in overflow for next 30/60min, when it will ask you again if you want to join main map)

I said it long ago before launch, many times since, and I’ll say it again:

The open world boss events should offer instanced versions that are tuned up for guilds. That way the open world encounters can remain open for players that just want to deal with them that way.

It’s clear ArenaNet wants to provide a challenge to organized groups, but the open world is not the place to do it as it will displace those who DON’T want that.

Instanced is better.

I like the open world large scale bosses, although I can agree that both sides of this argument do have valid points.

“There are only a couple of battles like this in the game” – True. Right now we only have Tequatl and the Wurm. The Marionette is temporary, and well be going away. Still, it has been mentioned that the other bosses will eventually be revamped so that they aren’t simply ‘spam 1’ type battles. Perhaps not all of them will be on the same scale as Teq though. I think we need a variety of difficulty when it comes to these world bosses, so that people don’t feel disheartened, like the OP obviously does.

“Instances wouldn’t be locked, we have a ‘dungeon finder’ for a reason” – Yes, we have a LFG tool. So do other games. However, they fail to be useful/helpful as often as they are. LFR in WoW is a nightmare (from my personal experience) and I hear as many horror stories about such groups as I do successful ones. Using instances is a gamble, and is a kitten ed if they do, kitten ed it they don’t scenario.

“Instances lead to elitism” and “People will get locked out” – Also true. We had issues with it in GW1. We have issues with it here in GW2. Certain classes get locked out because they aren’t the ‘right’ class, even if it’s not a speed clear run. (GW1 mesmers, remember the pains of trying to get into FoW and UW pre-ursan?) Even if everything were perfectly balanced (which it never will be) this issue will still exist simply due to player conditioning to believe that certain classes are inherently better, or that other classes are beyond useless.

“Overflows are a problem” – Yes, they are. Instancing would potentially alleviate this issue, however you are then faced with some of the other issues that involve instancing – elitism, not finding enough people, etc. I think they better option would be to make a smarter overflow system, perhaps similar to districting in gw1.

“Investing longer periods of time just waiting” – This is an issue for both open world and instancing though. How many large scale raids stand around and wait for enough people in WoW…even with the lfr raid option? Lots. You’re going to desire specific classes with specific builds, which is going to require you to sit back and wait until you build the party to your specifications. The only + side to an instance is that you can build your party how you want it, and not have to rely on randoms necessarily.

“Requires voip which is not a game feature” – Actually not necessarily true. Yes, voip helps, but the large events can be done successfully if you have clear instructions being given out as you go. Yes, this does require that people read their chat box, but that’s not any different than a person paying attention on voip either. Still, I do agree with the many that feel GW2 should have some type of built in voip option.

In short, throwing the bosses into instances isn’t the answer either.

Shadowflame i liked your comment i’m gonna answer specifically to you.
When you say that LFG tool is a gamble, yes it is, but ins’t the current open world event a much bigger gamble? you are not just meeting with random people, ur meeting with random people from different servers (overflows), plus you usually can’t play with any of your friends now.

The next part is when you compare this to wow and say that LFR would mean that you would wait for the specific role. I couldn’t disagree more. How often in WoW have u sat there waiting for a healer to do a dungeon? And how often u sat in guild wars 2 waiting for a specific class to do a dungeon? never that’s when. The skill/trait system in Guild wars 2 allows this to be great, everyone can depend on their own while also coordinating well with the rest of the team. U don’t need an offtank and a tank, you don’t need 2 healers 2 melee dps and 3 ranged, u just need skilled persons and mostly any will do.

“I’m against instanced raid content too”

Please think of helpful and thought provoking solutions. Not blind shut-downs.

What about:

Provide both options. Turn ‘Instanced Raid’ content bosses into an optional mode of content, perhaps with alternate horizontal progression rewards – such as ‘guild orientated’ or ‘collaborative’ titles. These encounters could be activated via guild influence, in order to time gate them effectively – maintain the same actual rewards.

Keep the open world stuff running for those who enjoy it.

Our guild, for one, and many other guilds who are perhaps focused on WvW due to it’s more coordinated gameplay do not participate in any of the open world events collectively – and rarely individually. We have no interest in that play-style. Of “mass” coordination, auto attacking and what not.

Taking my example; it provides us with some potentially challenging content and pleases at least two different ‘player bases’.

Why not make a separate part of the FotM for Guild Missions? Tweak Living Story encounters that are only temporary to work with, say ~12-25 guildies, and put them in that part of the FotM.

Then we can experience these awesome encounters without the Zergy feel, without overflows, without lag and AFK:ers, in a balanced fashion. And it will add a lot to the Guild-experience, and even carter to those who want these kind of big, but structured encounters.

Wouldn’t this be good? I’d certainly like it.

Agree with OP on this. And, you would think that Anet would have learned something from the Teq encounter—at least, I had hoped they would. There are a couple reasons why I believe this is wrong. In the same way that form follows function in one school of architectural thought, the design of open world PvE should be conceived around the player you find there. And, that would be a wide diversity of players in terms of skill and experience, who are not playing from an interrupt list, and not in voice communication.

The second reason you wouldn’t design open world raiding is around the “Living World” concept. Any encounter in the open world should be designed to populate the living world and make it more vibrant—not empty it. What effect has the Teq encounter had on the world in which it takes place? It has pretty much emptied it in comparison to what was found there pre-Teq.

I suppose there is a third reason and that is a technical reason—overflow. They really can’t provide an environment where large-scale open world ‘raids’ take place. That fact alone should be strong indication that you shouldn’t provide the encounter.

I do hope they figure out that you need instanced boss fights for challenging content and leave the open world bosses alone for pugs.

Aeonblade.8709:

I do hope they figure out that you need instanced boss fights for challenging content and leave the open world bosses alone for pugs.

I thought they should have already learned that after all the complaints about Tequatl.

At least they haven’t started to change the other worldbosses in that form till now, since if they do that i really start to look out for another game

Flyingepeto.1254:

When you say that LFG tool is a gamble, yes it is, but ins’t the current open world event a much bigger gamble? you are not just meeting with random people, ur meeting with random people from different servers (overflows), plus you usually can’t play with any of your friends now.

Yes, I agree they are both a gamble. Although from my experience (can’t really speak for others, its just not appropriate), it’s not any more of a gamble though…since the lfg tool pulls from all servers as well. My luck with people via the lfg tool tends to be worse than my luck with randoms simply gathering together in a map for common cause, at least when it comes to general attitudes. Yes, you’re going to get those unsavory people that you’d like to tie down and filet ever so slowly with a spork in every group, but I find fewer of them in the open world when trying to do the boss events than I do when I try using the lfg tool to do dungeons.

I do agree that getting split from your friends is an issue, but that is due to how the overflows are set up. If we had the option of being able to select an overflow, perhaps as a team even, this could potentially be eliminated as well. Thus why I mentioned perhaps something like the old districting option from gw1. Then people playing together to select an overflow that they could all easily get in to. Additionally, with districting, if the community had a general idea of how many overflows would exist, we’d probably start seeing more of ‘x guild is taking overflow 1’ ‘x guild is taking overflow 2’ to ensure that certain events had enough players and a decent chance of success. Again, similar to how guilds would sponsor districts for Canthan New Year in GW1.

The next part is when you compare this to wow and say that LFR would mean that you would wait for the specific role. I couldn’t disagree more. How often in WoW have u sat there waiting for a healer to do a dungeon? And how often u sat in guild wars 2 waiting for a specific class to do a dungeon? never that’s when. The skill/trait system in Guild wars 2 allows this to be great, everyone can depend on their own while also coordinating well with the rest of the team. U don’t need an offtank and a tank, you don’t need 2 healers 2 melee dps and 3 ranged, u just need skilled persons and mostly any will do.

How often did i sit there waiting for healers and tanks in WoW? Long enough that I finally logged and said kitten it. Or swapped to that class myself, even if it wasn’t what I really wanted to be playing.

True, GW2 has no roles that we sit around waiting for, but you run into the same issues though. Uncommon or unliked paths will have longer wait times. Groups looking for specific things – 80s only, must be ‘x’ class, zerker only, non-skip non-speed casual, etc – will also occasionally have long waits. Have I sat in queue with the lfg tool long enough to make me give up and move on? Yup…. Arah Story in fact. Have I joined a group via lfg and then was promptly booted or everyone else left because I wasn’t what they wanted (but didn’t advertise they wanted something specific)? Yup…tried doing CM story just the other day on my necro for some leveling xp. Group I joined, the advert simply said ‘story’, turns out they wanted all 80s. They promptly left when I was not an 80. Joined a HotW p1 on my ele (which is an 80) and was promptly booted because I was not a war or guard, though the advert simply stated ‘p1.’

The issues we face in other games do exist here, though perhaps not quite as badly. Yes, any class can do any role, can play any of the content viably, but our mental conditioning really doesn’t allow for such, which I think is a big part of the problem.

Beldin.5498:

I thought they should have already learned that after all the complaints about Tequatl.

At least they haven’t started to change the other worldbosses in that form till now, since if they do that i really start to look out for another game

There might have been a bit of complaints about Tequatl, but it is still getting killing several times per day on different servers, so clearly people do like it.

I think they should keep them as open world bosses But also make an instanced version of each open world boss. Wurm, Marionette, Tequatl, The Shatterer, Claw of Jormag, Zhaitan etc.

The events and world bosses will be there and they will also be in an instance if you like that better.

Instance it, if I really wanted to play with PuGs I would use the LFG tool. I have a good guild that’s all I need. I think my server has put in enough work to make the bad system work. Between our TS and Commanders, we do pretty well with this type of content. However its a flawed system at best.

What is usually one of the worst experiences in any mmo? Why running with a PuG cause we never know what we are getting into…. so why are we doing some of the hardest most coordinated fights with 100+ PuGs? That just has problems written all over it.

The issue with having both content types should be self evident. You split the playerbase and end up taking some of the people doing the open world event into the smaller raid event (because you’re not going to have an 80 man raid) and then if ten or twenty groups do this, there might not EVER be enough people to do it in the open world…and that’s a problem, because Anet wants this game to be about the open world. They’ve always said that.

It’s all very nice to provide a percentage of the players with what they want. It’s not all right when it actually ruins either the vision of the game itself, or the experience of that vision for those who are enjoying it.

Just as some people bought this game because they didn’t want vertical progression, I bought this game so I wouldn’t be forced into doing instances if I didn’t want to.

If you move this game so that people can experience the content in instances or open world, and you need less people for instances, you kill the open world.

For this reason I don’t think Anet will do it, even if you personally don’t like open world raids,

I agree with the problem. The encounters are just too hard with an open field team and too many of the other problems (e.g. over flow) occur.

I disagree with the solution seeming to be proposed by many that you make it instanced and people “pick their raid teams”. Trouble is that leaves out so many casual players who frankly are the reason you have 2 week updates to try to anchor them in the game.

The trouble is having such difficult content on what is really a more casual PvE game.
The Tower of madness was great because pickups could work together and get thru it. Sure it took a time or two for each player to get what the mechanics were. That is different.

Fractals are really different because you have the difficulty scale with experience running them. They are very accessible upfront to casuals then as the casual gets experience, they get harder. Ok, that works for everyone.

A permanent World boss that is in a raid instance works ok because people learn how to do it, share it, and you can learn on the fly a bit as a casual.

But, when the content is very temporary, and instanced raid favors those who are extremely well organized and can figure it out quickly. It would just never really get done by a pickup group before the content was replaced. That is bad bad bad bad.

Vayne.8563:

You split the playerbase and end up taking some of the people doing the open world event into the smaller raid event (because you’re not going to have an 80 man raid) and then if ten or twenty groups do this, there might not EVER be enough people to do it in the open world…and that’s a problem, because Anet wants this game to be about the open world. They’ve always said that.

But of those guilds aren’t doing the open world content anyway because it sucks, why does it matter?

We have dungeon for those who want small team instanced fight, we have world boss for easy zerging open world events and we have the 2 Mega World Boss for semi-organized zerging open world. We have all three why don’t just let them be like there are now.

Now Teq and the Wurm are some issues (overflow, minimum of ppl high enough to restrict it to high pop server or TTS, etc) But these are issue that can be work one, we don’t need to change them to instance or make them so easy that anybody can fight them with a small group.

The Marionette is the best proof that these epic World Boss can be well designed.

Zeldain.5710:

Vayne.8563:

You split the playerbase and end up taking some of the people doing the open world event into the smaller raid event (because you’re not going to have an 80 man raid) and then if ten or twenty groups do this, there might not EVER be enough people to do it in the open world…and that’s a problem, because Anet wants this game to be about the open world. They’ve always said that.

But of those guilds aren’t doing the open world content anyway because it sucks, why does it matter?

Proof? Just your opinion.

Many people seem to be doing it. My guild is doing it…at least most of the people in it are…and we seem to be having a good time doing it.

People joined TTS to do Tequatl. Maybe they didn’t do it in their own guild but it doesn’t mean they’re not doing it, or it’s not being done.

Do you know who knows who’s actually doing it and who’s not? Anet. They know what percentage of people ARE doing this open world content. They keep making more of it.

That should tell us something.

Could tackle the ‘inexperienced’ part by providing introduction quests/events that lead towards the final encounter. Make them based on the PC’s Order (Whispers, Vigil and Priory) and you automagically create smaller groups, without exclusions, giving players a better chance to get a grasp on the mechanics. Would also bring a tiny bit of RP flavour.

Zeldain.5710:

Vayne.8563:

You split the playerbase and end up taking some of the people doing the open world event into the smaller raid event (because you’re not going to have an 80 man raid) and then if ten or twenty groups do this, there might not EVER be enough people to do it in the open world…and that’s a problem, because Anet wants this game to be about the open world. They’ve always said that.

But of those guilds aren’t doing the open world content anyway because it sucks, why does it matter?

It’s very reasonable to argue that adding an instanced alternative would make the Open World version suffer. The instanced version shouldn’t be released at the same time, because of this.

Instead, wouldn’t it make sense to release the instanced version (in a seprate part of the Mists so that it makes sense) a week or so after the original one has ended?

Phadde.7362:

Zeldain.5710:

Vayne.8563:

You split the playerbase and end up taking some of the people doing the open world event into the smaller raid event (because you’re not going to have an 80 man raid) and then if ten or twenty groups do this, there might not EVER be enough people to do it in the open world…and that’s a problem, because Anet wants this game to be about the open world. They’ve always said that.

But of those guilds aren’t doing the open world content anyway because it sucks, why does it matter?

It’s very reasonable to argue that adding an instanced alternative would make the Open World version suffer. The instanced version shouldn’t be released at the same time, because of this.

Instead, wouldn’t it make sense to release the instanced version (in a seprate part of the Mists so that it makes sense) a week or so after the original one has ended?

I really like this idea. My only question will be this…

Will the people who want this, knowing an instance is coming if they just wait, not play the content in the world and therefore end up in the situation I outlined above.

This dividing of the playerbase thing isn’t just my concern, it’s a concern Anet themselves have expressed before…in more than one comment.

lordkrall.7241:

Beldin.5498:

I thought they should have already learned that after all the complaints about Tequatl.

At least they haven’t started to change the other worldbosses in that form till now, since if they do that i really start to look out for another game

There might have been a bit of complaints about Tequatl, but it is still getting killing several times per day on different servers, so clearly people do like it.

Oh yeah .. on Desolation .. and other players from Desolation start already to complain that ANet should do something about guesting there.

These events are NOT fine if 80% or more of the servers can’t do them on there own and are forced to guest on other servers.

A lot of the advertising for GW2 just said something like : You run through the world, see an event and just jump in and help. It was not : you know an event starts in 2 hours so you go there, after you joined a certain guild and went to there TS3 Server, and then you wait until they shuttle you in an overflow where you have to wait another hour till the event starts.

Vayne.8563:

Phadde.7362:

Zeldain.5710:

Vayne.8563:

You split the playerbase and end up taking some of the people doing the open world event into the smaller raid event (because you’re not going to have an 80 man raid) and then if ten or twenty groups do this, there might not EVER be enough people to do it in the open world…and that’s a problem, because Anet wants this game to be about the open world. They’ve always said that.

But of those guilds aren’t doing the open world content anyway because it sucks, why does it matter?

It’s very reasonable to argue that adding an instanced alternative would make the Open World version suffer. The instanced version shouldn’t be released at the same time, because of this.

Instead, wouldn’t it make sense to release the instanced version (in a seprate part of the Mists so that it makes sense) a week or so after the original one has ended?

I really like this idea. My only question will be this…

Will the people who want this, knowing an instance is coming if they just wait, not play the content in the world and therefore end up in the situation I outlined above.

This dividing of the playerbase thing isn’t just my concern, it’s a concern Anet themselves have expressed before…in more than one comment.

If so many people want it instanced that it prevents the open world event from being done, then clearly the majority has spoken and it should be instanced. If people flood the open world event and are having fun doing that then they will stay in the open world and do it.

If the game has so few players that splitting the content into an instanced and an open world version cause the event not to be completed then I think the game has much more pressing concerns.

I mean you are always telling people that they can guest for free to complete the content when there aren’t enough players, so shouldn’t you just take your own advice in this case if it was instanced and available in the open world? Surely there are 100 players between all the servers that would want to complete it in the open world and not in an instance? They can just all guest together and organize, that is what 12 out of the 20 or so servers already have to do for Teq.

Open world raid content would work if designed properly – with scaling and spreading out the players.
They d also have to replace the stupid overflow system with a district system from GW1.
Proper testing would also be a good idea.

SonicTHI.3217:

Open world raid content would work if designed properly – with scaling and spreading out the players.
They d also have to replace the stupid overflow system with a district system from GW1.
Proper testing would also be a good idea.

It will never work properly. It will never be balanced and fine tuned without creating the same thing for each boss fight. You can’t limit a raid and balance it for 30 players, when the map cap is significantly higher. To make raid contents ‘properly designed’ they’d need maps to cap at like.. ~30.

Vayne.8563:

I’m against instanced content too. It leads to elitism. It leads to problems.

You must have seen the threads of people who only want zerkers, only want this build only what that build.

This game was designed so people could play different builds. Some types of players, rangers, necros, engies, have trouble getting invited to groups. But in open world content, they can play what they want and still participate.

This is much better for me than being dictated too by the current meta exactly how I should play the game.

There are plenty of games for people to play instanced raids. I sure hope this won’t be another one of them.

If it’s offered as an alternative (If it’s a remake of a LS-encounter, it should be released after the LS has finished, to avoid separation of the playerbase) it should be a part of the Guild Missions, (maybe with a few different levels) which should eliminate this elitism fairly well, and add a big guild-feature. Then, if you you’ve issues with elitism, you can simply switch to a nicer guild.

Vayne.8563:

I really like this idea. My only question will be this…

Will the people who want this, knowing an instance is coming if they just wait, not play the content in the world and therefore end up in the situation I outlined above.

This dividing of the playerbase thing isn’t just my concern, it’s a concern Anet themselves have expressed before…in more than one comment.

Isn’t there a fairly big problem with overflows? It feels to me like these Open World encounters, especially when recently opened, have more than enough attraction to make this almost a non-issue. One would think that people still want to experience the original and fresh versions of these encounters, and get the loot, even if they might think they will prefer a (possibly) upcoming structured version.

All these people who are saying that they’re enjoying open world raiding, lets see how many of them are still playing the new worm bosses a month from now.

If Tequati was Hardcore Instance, you’d see LFG in Search tool all the time.

Being in the open world isn’t the problem.

The marionette is great, one of the best bosses since release. It’s difficult, rewarding when you win and yet still enjoyable when you lose, and it can be played a ton of different ways. Players are already begging for this event to be permanent. And it is open world.

And then there is the Great Jungler Wurm (and tequatl) which requires memorization and precise repetition of a group of game mechanics then boils down to the games harshest DPS check. Players are already abandoning this event like they did tequatl. It, like the marionette, is open world.

Clearly the problem is not the open world.

The problem is twofold.

Firstly, ANet is completely ignoring their promise of scaling content, all three of these are frustrating and nigh impossible on overflows because of they scale very little to not at all. If these bosses actually scaled properly, they would be fine as open world content, main or overflow.

Secondly, ANet seems to think that difficulty comes from stat checks. Having an encounter that requires precise memorization and repetition of mechanics is all well and good. It’s a particular design aesthetic that we don’t see a lot these days, and I see no reason why it doesn’t fit in some content. But combining that with a hard stat check (How fast does your dodge regen? How much DPS do you put out? How much ground can you cover?) is not okay. There is nothing less fun than getting the mechanics down only to be chop-blocked by the stat system.

The devs should always try to enlarge the spectrum of content. And since open world raids represent a huge part of the spectrum it should be kept/expanded.

I think I have a pretty good idea of what both sides of the arguments are and why ANet decided to incorporate such content in the game.

First of all, all you people are guilty that this content came in the first place. Your so called “elitism hate” and poor understanding of how other people might feel, and might want to play the game. Im sure many of you have come from previous MMOs such as W*W or Ai*n or Everqu*st or what-have-you, where there are very raid centric content, where elitism can come in very nasty forms. Aet just wanted to create content for the masses, but who are the masses?

You have your average Joe which only plays casually, doesnt give a crap about equipment min-maxing, have selftailored trait builds, some of them are so bad it makes you feel pity, truly. Then you have the self-entittled players who think everything should be handled to them just because they are asking for it. These are the ones that ask for entire dungeon sets per a couple of runs, or that want rewards such as Liadri to be handed just for trying and not beating the content.

Lastly you have the hard working players, the ones that might not have the FoTM build but have researched traits, builds, armor combinations, have tried and asked other people. People that are willing to put their life at risks for maximizing damage. People who will play Liadri over 150 times, try different builds, change their playstyle several times to be able to beat her, just for the challenge of it (and a mini perhaps too).

What happns when the first 2 kind of players clash with the third kind? The so called “elitism” so many people seem to complain about. Whats wrong wanting a party tailored as only zerkers? Dont you have the right to make groups of whatever you want? If I make a party to explore the caves of Maelstrom and someone joins and says “NO, we go do the JP instead”, dont you have the right to deny that rogue person? You people have to grow away from your insecurities, if a party wants to be all damage, then let those people be, dont join them if you don want to meet their expectations. Every now and then I see the “No stacking at spider” groups at AC lfg, and it gets full! If a zerker were to join then those people have the right to boot him, as simple as that.

Now, onto the instance. Once again, players, usually guildmates, or premades that have known eachother for quite a while and have dungeon runs very often, but because they are more than 5 at a time they have to get separated. These people have rights too. You people tend to forget that. THe beauty of Liadri was that; you and only you could decide th outcome. These raid-like content is fine, the problem is all the new, unexperienced, people using low levels to level them up, bad builds, taggers, leechers, overflowers, AF[Kers, commanders who dont have a clue, people who just WONT cooperate almost on purpose. These are what causes these events to fail.

If a group of organizd group such as a large guild want to do the event on their own, let them. They are already trying to do that with overflows but the system is so bad that it is nearly impossible to get people to them, god forbids you get DCed after a 2 hours wait though……..

Tl;DR: Let people associate as they please. Negating people that right makes you no better than them negating your badly built and geared character join on their TS/Zerkero Soldier/Guild only group

Phadde.7362:

It’s very reasonable to argue that adding an instanced alternative would make the Open World version suffer.

Why? They already have the open world event scaling technology in place, it would work as it ever does. Regardless of when the instanced version is released. And regardless of how many people are there.

Phadde.7362:

Instead, wouldn’t it make sense to release the instanced version (in a seprate part of the Mists so that it makes sense) a week or so after the original one has ended?

All they need is a little twinkly green thing like they use for personal story instances… maybe make it blue to indicate a raid instance entry point in the open world. Only visible to those in a group and have the option turned on.

Nemitri.8172:

For example; the dreaded overflows, the servers can’t handle having so many people on their servers,

I agree. I guess this is a limitation of “free to play”, unfortunately.

Nemitri.8172:

Then there’s the frames per second issue (fps) of having so many people near each other, if you don’t have a high-end pc you are out of luck!

The game looks good and it looks like ANet has designed it to stay for a while. I don’t see that as a problem and neither as their fault. You can change your quality settings and that’s it.

Nemitri.8172:

The needed coordination on these events is a nice welcomed addition, but then again, trying to command a lot of strangers that don’t want to cooperate, makes it as easy as herding a stampede!

You’re right, coordinating strangers that simply want to smash buttons is infuriating. But we can’t blame ANet for that, can we? Maybe they could help with a “raid party” exclusive to commanders, and commanders could designate people in certain areas or certain tasks and that would be clear to them (like something on the right side of the screen). But that would be an addition. Unfortunately we can’t blame ANet for creating something awesome that people don’t know how to enjoy.

Nemitri.8172:

Please Anet, learn from your past experiences with tequatl, make big major open raid events instanced! Let us coordinate in smaller scale, it has many positive effects, if you design an encounter with X people in mind, it is easier to balance around it, rather than having to guess with open world content.

I think I’ll have to agree with you on that. Not ANet’s fault, though, I like to make it clear so that whichever employee who reads it get the message right. They have the potential. ANet’s challenging content is improving with every new LS chapter (that, to me, is the BEST part of LS). Unfortunately players of this game are not prepared or do not want challenging content, so let those who want it group on an instance.
The important message here is: don’t go back to designing Maw like encounters. GW2 is on the right track and complex bosses must continue to attack Tyria!

Nemitri.8172:

I initially was not in favor of having instanced raid content in the beginning, but now that we see the major hindrances open raid content brings up, it is really unbearable.

I’m 100% with you here.

Nemitri.8172:

We can still have open world content that anyone can join on a moment’s notice like the Fire Elemental, The Shaman, Maw etc… those are fine, but big content like Teq, marionette/ the new 3 headed wurms that require coordination and alot of people working together, please make them instanced!

Against our will, apparently, but yes, make them instanced.

Nemitri.8172:

I love this game, please don’t make me hate it, please, I know you can do this and much more!

+1

Baels.3469:

SonicTHI.3217:

Open world raid content would work if designed properly – with scaling and spreading out the players.
They d also have to replace the stupid overflow system with a district system from GW1.
Proper testing would also be a good idea.

It will never work properly. It will never be balanced and fine tuned without creating the same thing for each boss fight. You can’t limit a raid and balance it for 30 players, when the map cap is significantly higher. To make raid contents ‘properly designed’ they’d need maps to cap at like.. ~30.

Scaling is simply designing an encounter around a base number of players, then adding challenge (more mobs, higher level mobs, or even added mechanics) based on actual numbers of players detected in the area. Teq and the Wurm are designed for a baseline of a large number of players. It’s also possible to set a baseline and scale the challenge down for smaller numbers, though I don’t think ANet does it that way. Teq, at least, does not scale down.

The scaling functionality is built into many events across the game. ANet could design these events to either scale down, or to have a lower design minimum. That they don’t likely means that they envision these bosses as requiring a massive effort to defeat — not that they can’t use scaling to make the bosses harder with more people, or that they’d need to reduce zone caps to match a set difficulty.

I totally desagree with you. There are actually some people enjoy the open world raid.

Just because you don’t enjoy it, don’t mean no one likes it.

Just read through this post. “There are actually people enjoying it”.

Personally I think open world raid is BS. I dont’ know why people enjoy it. Many people felt the same way with me and you.

But that dont’ mean “no one” likes it. It’s probably half and half the way I see it base on forum post.

Many people are strongly against instanced raid. I think that’s the main problem. I rather Anet just work on something else instead of this open raid thing.

I don’t get the logic behind being opposed to instanced Raid, it would fix all, if not most of the problems mentioned in my initial post, how exactly are you gonna be left behind if content is raid instanced? You can still find casual-minded people (if casuals fear being left out).

Not all upcoming content has to be instanced, as I said, I’m for BOTH types of content, all the simple open boss content still available can still remain in place intact.

If they want to add instanced content for large groups I’m all for that. That said, I am NOT for removing open world content like teq. I actually enjoy those events a lot. Teq is much better since the revamp. It will be great to see the other bosses revamped in some way. The only thing they might want to tweak is the amount of people needed for the new worm event. It’s currently a bit on the high side. Might want to tweak it so smaller servers won’t have so much trouble.

It’s nice not having another stand still and hit #1 fest that goes on with the other world bosses. So Anet, please DO keep releasing interesting world bosses.

Open world Raids+overflow system=Bleh.
Maybe if they had servers that can handle thousands of players per zone.
But they don’t.Nobody does.
It’s like they are ignoring the limitations of technology.
Open world Raid is a good idea but given the current tech,
results in low quality MMO gaming.At least for some of us.
As said before there should be a pug friendly version of such events
for the open world,and people that have no problem with being thrown
in and overflow,and the kittene,requiring coordination and voice
coms etc should be instanced.Maybe as a guild mission or something.
That would be an honest solution,true to the games “openness” and
true to the games tech.

P.S Why is h@r d one being filtered as kitten?
One is not on.

Nemitri.8172:

I don’t get the logic behind being opposed to instanced Raid, it would fix all, if not most of the problems mentioned in my initial post, how exactly are you gonna be left behind if content is raid instanced? You can still find casual-minded people (if casuals fear being left out).

Not all upcoming content has to be instanced, as I said, I’m for BOTH types of content, all the simple open boss content still available can still remain in place intact.

A bunch of people are against instanced raid not necessary because they think open world is better.

They have the mentality other people are having fun, when they are left out of the party.

It’s kind of like the guild mission dilema. All those small guild can join multiple guild right? But they kept complaining and whining their guild isn’t big enough to do guild mission.

All Anet need to do is raise the server population cap for those maps with this kind of event, then we wouldn’t get split up and spewed into different overflows with no hope of joining our home server. We wouldn’t need to bother with raids, instances and all the baggage that goes with them if we could all play the content as designed on our native server.