Guild Wars 2

“We won’t have an expansion because we can add everything through the Living Story”

Well, clearly they couldn’t.

The fact ArenaNet is making an expansion is the best proof of how flawed the Living Story concept was. The “novel” way of adding content to a MMORPG has been forced to give place to the good, old expansion system.

ArenaNet better hope it’s not too little, too late. After the failure in China, they cannot afford to fail, again.

china failure?
_
tbh I think the xpac is because so many people screamed for it.

everything they’re adding could be added by free downloads but that’s not bring in as much sales, I guess.
such a shame.

I think living world gave the game everything it needed, of course some ppl want more than I do (maybe because they have played other mmos, I don’t know) but I really don’t think living world was a failiure, but an expansion will probably make a lot more people happy with the game which is a good thing.

I think the actuall quote was: “an expansion is not off the table”. In other words, the idea of having an expansion was not considered nor rejected.

Everything else sounds like a moan, because your opinon on them having / showing no evidence of them giving an expansion. So you want to save what face you have by coming up with this.

suffish.4150:

I think living world gave the game everything it needed, of course some ppl want more than I do (maybe because they have played other mmos, I don’t know)

I feel the same!

You’re misinterpreting the thing:
The living story adds new content and keeps the world moving. They said it would be as big as an expansion’s worth, they didn’t say it would be a expansion

Taygus.4571:

china failure?

Per the NCSoft quarterly report, the sales in China have been less than they expected. Together with the continuous loss in profit, and the inclusion of strategies that free to play games employ to keep players logging in no matter what (such as the reward system for merely logging in the game), it’s easy to see that ArenaNet is becoming desperate.

It’s little suprise to see an expansion. It’s probably ArenaNet’s last bet. It’s still worth noticing, though, that we are getting this now because the other strategies have failed.

I definitely appreciated the living story updates for what they were, and I think if the model continues in this way it would be a fantastic addition. Having the living world updates between large expansions/big releases is a great way to add story and have something to do.

Personally, I wouldn’t call living story a failure or take the expansion as evidence that ANet is calling living world a failure either. Both release models have benefits, and people are still going to speed through the expansion content as well. I know I am going to pack as much of the new stuff into as little time as I can because I like to experience everything and test it out all at once.

I never learned to be patient.

They have never said that they wouldn’t do an expansion. They did say that they weren’t sure which option they wanted to go with because Living World was capable of delivering the same types of content. They never said they wouldn’t do both.

Since the very first LS update, I have been of the opinion that Living World would be better used to lay the ground work for an expansion. The lead in, and that’s pretty much exactly what they did. Let’s see if they continue that trend after the expansion drops. They haven’t said LS is going away. So we’ll see where they go next.

The living story didn’t fail at delivering story content. It even changed some zones and even added an evolving atmosphere. It might’ve failed at introducing more traditional expansion content though, but i wouldn’t say it wholly failed.

Test.8734:

Taygus.4571:

china failure?

Per the NCSoft quarterly report, the sales in China have been less than they expected. Together with the continuous loss in profit, and the inclusion of strategies that free to play games employ to keep players logging in no matter what (such as the reward system for merely logging in the game), it’s easy to see that ArenaNet is becoming desperate.

It’s little suprise to see an expansion. It’s probably ArenaNet’s last bet. It’s still worth noticing, though, that we are getting this now because the other strategies have failed.

God, please just stop.
There is no reason to still be so god kitten negative. One of the greatest days in GW history, and you people still find things to be sour about.
Just enjoy the day with the rest of us.

An expansion of this sort seems likely to have required anywhere from a year to two years to develop.

Wouldn’t that mean that the expansion was being planned/developed alongside the LS all along ?

I mean it looks as if LS and expansion are a single development strategy. LS, relying on small team(s), leading into the expansion.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see this pattern repeated.

Question is, will they leave LS now until the expansion?

Test.8734:

Per the NCSoft quarterly report, the sales in China have been less than they expected. Together with the continuous loss in profit, and the inclusion of strategies that free to play games employ to keep players logging in no matter what (such as the reward system for merely logging in the game), it’s easy to see that ArenaNet is becoming desperate.

It’s little suprise to see an expansion. It’s probably ArenaNet’s last bet. It’s still worth noticing, though, that we are getting this now because the other strategies have failed.

Sounds like an excuse for being wrong.

There’s definitely upsides the living story brought, but also some things that were very lacking. I just hope it didn’t cost them too many resources.

It doesn’t need to be and shouldn’t be an either/or. The LW is a great way to deliver content between expansions. Expansions are the only feasible way to add a large amount of new content at one time (like new continents and such). The model works best including both.

Ashen.2907:

An expansion of this sort seems likely to have required anywhere from a year to two years to develop.

Heh. You are assuming it will be released any time soon. Guild Wars 2 had a playable demo on 2010 yet was only released on 2012, so the fact that we will see a playable demo at PAX is far from being a sign that the expansion will be released in a couple months.

Besides, you are also assuming it won’t all be poorly done and hushed content. The kind of thing they could have done in six months, after watching the poor China sales and the lack of player retention in the Living World.

eekzie.5640:

There’s definitely upsides the living story brought, but also some things that were very lacking. I just hope it didn’t cost them too many resources.

The LS composed of 20 members, whilst the rest of the team were likey put on the x-pac group.

Test.8734:

Ashen.2907:

An expansion of this sort seems likely to have required anywhere from a year to two years to develop.

Heh. You are assuming it will be released any time soon. Guild Wars 2 had a playable demo on 2010 yet was only released on 2012, so the fact that we will see a playable demo at PAX is far from being a sign that the expansion will be released in a couple months.

Besides, you are also assuming it won’t all be poorly done and hushed content. The kind of thing they could have done in six months, after watching the poor China sales and the lack of player retention in the Living World.

No, no such assumptions. Kind of willing to just wait and see really.

CalamityO.2890:

Sounds like an excuse for being wrong.

Sure. Just show me where have I said that there would not be an expansion.

Have you noticed how often MMORPGs that are falling try to use an expansion as their last hope? I’m far from being surprised to see a GW2 expansion. It’s just interesting to acknowledge how ArenaNet itself noticed their “lovely” Living World simply didn’t cut it.

Test.8734:

Taygus.4571:

china failure?

Per the NCSoft quarterly report, the sales in China have been less than they expected. Together with the continuous loss in profit, and the inclusion of strategies that free to play games employ to keep players logging in no matter what (such as the reward system for merely logging in the game), it’s easy to see that ArenaNet is becoming desperate.

It’s little suprise to see an expansion. It’s probably ArenaNet’s last bet. It’s still worth noticing, though, that we are getting this now because the other strategies have failed.

What makes you think that they weren’t working on this already before the China release?

Test.8734:

CalamityO.2890:

Sounds like an excuse for being wrong.

Sure. Just show me where have I said that there would not be an expansion.

Have you noticed how often MMORPGs that are falling try to use an expansion as their last hope? I’m far from being surprised to see a GW2 expansion. It’s just interesting to acknowledge how ArenaNet itself noticed their “lovely” Living World simply didn’t cut it.

Don’t you think it is a great thing when a company finds their mistake and try to solve the issue by releasing content that the players have been asking for?

Test.8734:

“We won’t have an expansion because we can add everything through the Living Story”

Well, clearly they couldn’t.

The fact ArenaNet is making an expansion is the best proof of how flawed the Living Story concept was. The “novel” way of adding content to a MMORPG has been forced to give place to the good, old expansion system.

No. Actually, the only flaw of the living story was that they couldn’t charge or felt they shouldn’t charge for it.

Now, we are going to get season 3 plus a few shinies, and they are going to charge us for what we could have got for free.

Test.8734:

“We won’t have an expansion because we can add everything through the Living Story”

Well, clearly they couldn’t.

The fact ArenaNet is making an expansion is the best proof of how flawed the Living Story concept was. The “novel” way of adding content to a MMORPG has been forced to give place to the good, old expansion system.

ArenaNet better hope it’s not too little, too late. After the failure in China, they cannot afford to fail, again.

They never said that. Stop posting lies without the source to back it up.

Aenesthesia.1697:

Test.8734:

“We won’t have an expansion because we can add everything through the Living Story”

Well, clearly they couldn’t.

The fact ArenaNet is making an expansion is the best proof of how flawed the Living Story concept was. The “novel” way of adding content to a MMORPG has been forced to give place to the good, old expansion system.

No. Actually, the only flaw of the living story was that they couldn’t charge or felt they shouldn’t charge for it.

Now, we are going to get season 3 plus a few shinies, and they are going to charge us for what we could have got for free.

It’s not reasonable to expect them to pop out expansion-level volumes of content completely free of charge. At all.

The LW, being largely free, was never going to be capable of churning out expansion of content at a pace that most people desire. A unison of the two approaches is very reasonable and should work out pretty well.

Test.8734:

“We won’t have an expansion because we can add everything through the Living Story”

Well, clearly they couldn’t.

The fact ArenaNet is making an expansion is the best proof of how flawed the Living Story concept was. The “novel” way of adding content to a MMORPG has been forced to give place to the good, old expansion system.

ArenaNet better hope it’s not too little, too late. After the failure in China, they cannot afford to fail, again.

People said that WoW would die and Blizzard was desperate. Do you know when? It was 10-9 years ago.

Good luck with your wait, you have a long period ahead of you.

nGumball.1283:

People said that WoW would die and Blizzard was desperate. Do you know when? It was 10-9 years ago.

Good luck with your wait, you have a long period ahead of you.

People said City of Heroes would die and Cryptic Studios was desperate. Do you know what happened next?

People said Vanguard: Saga of Heroes would die. Guess what happened?

People said Warhammer Online would die. Well…

People “who actually know what they’re saying” know that WoW is an exception, not the rule.

Taygus.4571:

china failure?
_
tbh I think the xpac is because so many people screamed for it.

everything they’re adding could be added by free downloads but that’s not bring in as much sales, I guess.
such a shame.

I don’t think China quite qualifies as a failure, but iirc it was below expected sales. How much below I don’t recall ever being stated of course.

If the LS is going to continue (apparently they are capable of developing both simultaneously) then I’m much more in favour of it. A lot of the hate for Living Story came because we didn’t know if we could expect more than it. If ANet are happy to give us free LS content and then take money for expansions I’m very happy

I want to know whats going to happen with LS after expansion. Will people without expansion be able to continue ALL the story. Including modremoth or are they stuck in Silverwastes. BTW be careful there’s a lot of people who will think your are just crying and complaining on the LS. I would seriously like to know whats gonna happen.

Test.8734:

Taygus.4571:

china failure?

Per the NCSoft quarterly report, the sales in China have been less than they expected. Together with the continuous loss in profit, and the inclusion of strategies that free to play games employ to keep players logging in no matter what (such as the reward system for merely logging in the game), it’s easy to see that ArenaNet is becoming desperate.

It’s little suprise to see an expansion. It’s probably ArenaNet’s last bet. It’s still worth noticing, though, that we are getting this now because the other strategies have failed.

Mike said they have been working towards HoT since launch, so I think you’re full of kitten.

The casual nature of GW2 was never going to appeal to the eastern MMO grindfest crowd, and I’m sure that ANet expected that.

rapthorne.7345:

The casual nature of GW2 was never going to appeal to the eastern MMO grindfest crowd, and I’m sure that ANet expected that.

You do realize that ArenaNet stopped working temporarily on improvements for us due to the release on China, right? They said as much last year.

Meanwhile, we have the NCSoft report stating that the China released was weaker than they expected. So no, ArenaNet wasn’t expecting GW2 to not appeal to a grindbased market. I wonder why.

So, I heard you like kittens? You have a bunch of those, it seems

Test.8734:

rapthorne.7345:

The casual nature of GW2 was never going to appeal to the eastern MMO grindfest crowd, and I’m sure that ANet expected that.

You do realize that ArenaNet stopped working temporarily on improvements for us due to the release on China, right? They said as much last year.

Meanwhile, we have the NCSoft report stating that the China released was weaker than they expected. So no, ArenaNet wasn’t expecting GW2 to not appeal to a grindbased market. I wonder why.

So, I heard you like kittens? You have a bunch of those, it seems

if NCSoft tell anet to do something, they do it. doesn’t mean they have to like it or think it’s a good idea. Fun stuff, being a subsidiary.

Copied from my previous post.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-03-its-unlikely-guild-wars-2-will-ever-get-an-expansion-pack

So right now we’re not really looking at expansions as an option.
…
It’s something that’s on the table but it’s not something we’re focused on, because what we want to do is – our idea here is that with Living World, we can do what expansions would have done but do it on a more regular basis.
…
If we do this right, we will probably never do an expansion and everything will be going into this Living World strategy.

In before the “they’re streamlining” defense.

completely disagree.

Living story has always been less then 20 people working on it and Anet since launch had more then 350 people working on the game. They may have originally planned to release everything through LS sure but regardless they’ve been working on this content since day 1.

This isnt some last minute lets try to save a sinking ship manouver. Anyone who’s been on the forum knows how vocal people were asking Anet to create an expansion. An expansion means 100 – 200 million dollars for them, frankly dont understand how they even considered not doing an expansion at any point

anyhow going back to failure and such. Living story hasnt failed, living story is the most amazing idea they could ever get. It took them 2 years and 1/2 to develop the expansion. 20 people extra working on the expansion may have reduced that to 2 years perhaps? imagine 2 years with no substantial content updates? I love the game but even I would have gotten bored but with the Living story? always something new to do while we wait for the xpac to hit.. that’s like perfect if you ask me as far from a failure as you can get.

Besides this isnt some U-turn they never said thats it we’re never going to do LS again from now on its just going to be expansions. LS is a tool they’re employing to achieve 2 goals.

1. keep players busy while they develop an expansion
2. setup the story and change the world gradually to fit the narrative of the expansion.

I wouldn’t call it a failure on Living Story’s part. I’d call it more supply and demand. People demanded an ‘expansion’ and now ANet is supplying it . . . in the disguise of a big Living Story update.

See?

Win/Win for everyone.

I think LS was not a good content-delivery vehicle simply because the content wasn’t very good nor engaging and – the main reason – consumed so many resources that updates to the rest of the game suffered badly.

I would have much preferred to have seen much more frequent balance updates, new skills/weapons, new PVP game type(s) and WVW BG/mechanics. So for me, the whole LS experiment was a failure and not something i’d like to see repeated.

The other thing is that the LS content and story was not at all engaging for me because it felt so contrived, and it was all very 1-size-fits-all. I think more sandbox elements and open-endedness would help a lot.

ohh an one more thing, there is a difference between failure and not hitting projections.

We dont know specifics about China unfortunately but we do know they sold at least 1M copies.. Thats quite a bit of money.. even if they never went above that number that together with the $80-$100M a year Gw2 does in the west doesnt exactly make it a failure.

you mentioned City of heroes. COH was making $11M per year when it was closed. Gw2 did twice that in its worst quarter ever. quite a difference.

But hey we dont really need financial numbers to know Gw2 is doing quite well. Arenanet has never stopped hiring and they never had any downsize. Even when last year ncsoft restructured and downsized Arenanet was the only one left untouched. Does that sound like a company who is doing so badly that its desperate for a life line?

Companies are allowed to change their mind and that doesn’t only happen when they’re facing a crises.

Living story + expansion is a great mix and one I personally hope they keep up. I dont feel that combo is something to point at and cry failure on the contrary its something you point at and appreciate the effort that goes in to that as well as what i means to us the players.

So far we have no idea how the story of HoT will be delivered. Maybe it is an episodic approach like in LW. Maybe you have even to unlock certain features by the story step by step.

As Galen mentioned there was no earnest try to expand GW2 via LW. With 20-30 people you simply can’t do it.

Test.8734:

Sure. Just show me where have I said that there would not be an expansion.

Show me where you said that they are working on an expansion.

Test.8734:

“We won’t have an expansion because we can add everything through the Living Story”

Well, clearly they couldn’t.

The fact ArenaNet is making an expansion is the best proof of how flawed the Living Story concept was. The “novel” way of adding content to a MMORPG has been forced to give place to the good, old expansion system.

ArenaNet better hope it’s not too little, too late. After the failure in China, they cannot afford to fail, again.

Or it’s showing that they’re using the Living Story to tide us over until the expansion, with the LS leading into and up to the expansion, with the story continuing with it.

Galen Grey.4709:

Living story has always been less then 20 people working on it and Anet since launch had more then 350 people working on the game. They may have originally planned to release everything through LS sure but regardless they’ve been working on this content since day 1.

Yeah… No. The Living World did not begin on day 1. They still had to work on fixing bugs, adding the remaining polish that wasn’t there on release, making Fractals of the Mists, and so on. Not to mention how the “20 people” team thing is ignoring those who were working on the microtransactions all this time.

“Day 1”? Without knowing when is the release day of HoT and how polished it will be, it’s hard to guess. But they are likely working on it for less than one year.

CalamityO.2890:

Show me where you said that they are working on an expansion.

They are working on an expansion See, and I’m right too!

Test.8734:

Galen Grey.4709:

Living story has always been less then 20 people working on it and Anet since launch had more then 350 people working on the game. They may have originally planned to release everything through LS sure but regardless they’ve been working on this content since day 1.

Yeah… No. The Living World did not begin on day 1. They still had to work on fixing bugs, adding the remaining polish that wasn’t there on release, making Fractals of the Mists, and so on. Not to mention how the “20 people” team thing is ignoring those who were working on the microtransactions all this time.

“Day 1”? Without knowing when is the release day of HoT and how polished it will be, it’s hard to guess. But they are likely working on it for less than one year.

CalamityO.2890:

Show me where you said that they are working on an expansion.

They are working on an expansion See, and I’m right too!

I didnt say living world was work on day 1, I said the content thats going to drop with this expansion was worked on since day 1.

There are key Arenanet people like Ree Soeesbee, Jeff Grub, Eric Flannum etc.. that have literally disappeared post launch even though prior to launch they were an integral part of the face of Gw2. Why do you think that is? good chance its because they’re part of the group working on the expansion.

As for Living world, Living world might not have started from day 1 sure but its not like the concept wasnt already there. Guild wars 2 had a live team from day 1 whose job was to create monthly content. At the time it wasnt called Living world but it was still essentially the same thing. When southsun was released it may not have been called a living world release but beyond the name what difference was there between it and a living world release really?

not only is it ignoring people working on micro transactions but also those working on PvP, Balancing / Fixes too. Its still pretty clear the Living story team is the biggest by far. There is no doubt it where the bulk of the content is being released. Once again Arenanet has more then 350 employees and thats a huge ammount of people unless you’re blizzard. By contrast Elder scrolls online have 250 employees, Carbine had 260, Funcom (for all their MMOs) have 280 employees while Trion have 260ish total for all of their MMOs.
So even if we count 20 people working on live content, 20 people working on microtransaction, 20 on pvp and 20 on balancing and fixes (which isnt the case) you’re still left with one of the biggest teams in the industry.

What does the release day have anything to do with when they started working on the expansion? Its pretty simple really. They have 350+ employees. 20 were working on live content, x amount that most likely was smaller then 80 were working on other stuff. that leave 250+ people what where they working on from release – 1 year ago? Why wouldnt they have been working on the expansion?

Test.8734:

Taygus.4571:

china failure?

Per the NCSoft quarterly report, the sales in China have been less than they expected. Together with the continuous loss in profit, and the inclusion of strategies that free to play games employ to keep players logging in no matter what (such as the reward system for merely logging in the game), it’s easy to see that ArenaNet is becoming desperate.

It’s little suprise to see an expansion. It’s probably ArenaNet’s last bet. It’s still worth noticing, though, that we are getting this now because the other strategies have failed.

Do you have a source for these numbers?

Galen Grey.4709:

completely disagree.

Living story has always been less then 20 people working on it and Anet since launch had more then 350 people working on the game. They may have originally planned to release everything through LS sure but regardless they’ve been working on this content since day 1.

This isnt some last minute lets try to save a sinking ship manouver. Anyone who’s been on the forum knows how vocal people were asking Anet to create an expansion. An expansion means 100 – 200 million dollars for them, frankly dont understand how they even considered not doing an expansion at any point

anyhow going back to failure and such. Living story hasnt failed, living story is the most amazing idea they could ever get. It took them 2 years and 1/2 to develop the expansion. 20 people extra working on the expansion may have reduced that to 2 years perhaps? imagine 2 years with no substantial content updates? I love the game but even I would have gotten bored but with the Living story? always something new to do while we wait for the xpac to hit.. that’s like perfect if you ask me as far from a failure as you can get.

Besides this isnt some U-turn they never said thats it we’re never going to do LS again from now on its just going to be expansions. LS is a tool they’re employing to achieve 2 goals.

1. keep players busy while they develop an expansion
2. setup the story and change the world gradually to fit the narrative of the expansion.

You are right. When GW2 released, Anet probably begun developing the content towards HoT right away.

But, I think the initial plan was to release the HoT content through Living World.
With the content in development, they could easily adapt it to fit whatever model they planned for the future, which we can now see has resulted in the Living World building up to the HoT expansion so far.

An example: when they decided to start developing the guild halls, I think they focused primarily on the development itself, because in the end releasing it through Living World or the HoT expansion, could both be done easily.

Test.8734:

Galen Grey.4709:

Living story has always been less then 20 people working on it and Anet since launch had more then 350 people working on the game. They may have originally planned to release everything through LS sure but regardless they’ve been working on this content since day 1.

Yeah… No. The Living World did not begin on day 1. They still had to work on fixing bugs, adding the remaining polish that wasn’t there on release, making Fractals of the Mists, and so on. Not to mention how the “20 people” team thing is ignoring those who were working on the microtransactions all this time.

“Day 1”? Without knowing when is the release day of HoT and how polished it will be, it’s hard to guess. But they are likely working on it for less than one year.

CalamityO.2890:

Show me where you said that they are working on an expansion.

They are working on an expansion See, and I’m right too!

You’re implying Designers had to work on fixing bugs.

Enough said.

Test.8734:

“We won’t have an expansion because we can add everything through the Living Story”

Well, clearly they couldn’t.

And where did that quote come from? I have no memory of them ever stating this, only that they had a number of projects they are working on in conjunction with the Living World.

Either you can provide a citation for your quote or you can stop making up things that Arena Net were meant to have said.

Players: Expansion! Expansion!
Anet: We are going to try giving content through the LS…
Players: EXPANSION! EXPANSION!
Anet: Fine, here is an expansion.
Players: Ha! You’re only doing it because sales have fallen!

Anet owes us an official apology for feeding us the Living Story that clearly failed.

Living World provided a lot of content which a lot of people played through. That lot of people spent a lot of money on the gem store. Funny definition of failure.

The decision to publish a paid expansion will provide what might be a hefty infusion of cash in a short time. It also will silence some of the criticism, at least for a time. In the meantime, the Living Story has been abandoned only when ANet says it has been abandoned. It might very well be that the LS will continue to serve as content releases between expansions. Since none of us know whether that will happen, the OP’s opinion is simply an expression of his bias, nothing more.