Guild Wars 2

First things first…I am not against stealth completely, just its in-combat usefullness.

This is becoming more and more of a problem in PvP environments and WvW.

Stealth fields, finishers, leaps, and stealth in general has gotten a little out of hand mainly due to the in-combat capabilities of it.

Stealth should be a tool to escape, initiate, even both but not be a constant hindrance to an opponent in mid-combat….with no cost, or penalty (no revealed does NOT count). This is simply bad mechanics.

Currently the amount of in-combat stealth some classes can bring themselves and allies can simply make for an infuriating experience. When initiating a battle, group or individual stealth is a valid tactic and can alter a battle every so slightly in your favor if used correctly. But when it happens several times during combat it simply takes away from any form of equality in terms of success and failure between the combatants. It no longer becomes an equal fight, it becomes a mess, tipping quickly into one players favor.

This is a tricky thing to alter since its applications are rather widespread, for example a simple Smoke Field would yield no effect with blast finisher or leaps when used in combat if it was removed completely, but they are a great strategy before a battle to position yourselves for an advantage….and the field cannot have in/out of combat applications without becoming too complex.

Causing damage to reveal a stealthed character or show a trace view/silhouette of them (similar to what the player/allies sees as stealth), or perhaps have a passive ability attached to one of the 4 primary attributes (such as precision) that allows you to detect a stealthed unit nearby would solve some issues.

This would allow players to react to a stealthed character if they have a quick enough reaction time, still giving the stealthed player enough time to effectively initiate and also allow the stealthed character to use distance to stay hidden and escape if they need to re-position by moving further from the target. This would allow agressive plays against stealth to exist, actively searching for the player in order to prevent another impossible-to-predict ambush.

I have always enjoyed stealth in games, I tend to play sneaky classes in most RPGs and Shooters. But when you get detected in most games, you need to react quickly, find cover and carefully plan your next move…not simply make your own cover in the middle of a firefight…(some games have this, but taking damage shows you so….its a poor move usually to do that.)

The issue is in-combat stealth, not stealth in general.

I agree, Stealth needs a counter, it’s one of the few things in the game players can do nothing about. I like the idea of using damage as a way to break stealth.

Stealth isn’t a problem.

I whole-heartedly agree with you. In-combat stealth is completely broken right now as “Revealed” has done nothing to correct the fundamental problems regarding it. As you have stated we need to be able to at least see numbers in order to effectively counter this sort of play instead of busting Hail Mary(s) for the off chance someone won’t burst you down right after. I personally advocate for stealth to be removed from weapon sets and remain completely utilitarian with a minimum of 45 second cd when traited. I don’t see much issue with combo fields providing it, as it usually requires extensive chains to be useful. However, severely capping how frequently it can be maintained will quickly differentiate between those who know how to play stealthily vs. those who exploit it as a crutch.

gw2 is filled with gimmick mechanics, mcstealth is one of many. each gimmick mechanic simply shows a complete lack of developer knowledge in whatever area they’re supposed to cover. it’s not that stealth is impossible to counter, or even really that difficult once you learn what to expect, it’s that it’s that the implementation is so absurdly ridiculous and cheesy that it’s a complete turnoff. factor in all of the other gimmick mechanics that are likewise complete turnoffs, yet are mandatory to learn and deal with, and the overall attractiveness of the game plummets through the floor. what’s worse is that these gimmick mechanics are now infesting other games, which makes the overall outlook on the future of gaming quite bleak. fortunately, there are still companies that care about the integrity of their product, and won’t be copying the gimmick mechanics. however, that ship has long since sailed here.

aoe is supposed to be the counter to stealth… how about you take 3 times as much damage while stealthed? after all, we shouldn’t be totally ruining it, just making it less OP.

Stealth in itself isn’t such a big deal, but its the ability to completely reset a fight that is OP. It completely kills the ability for a sustained dps build to kill a thief.

Mnemesis.8257:

I personally advocate for stealth to be removed from weapon sets and remain completely utilitarian with a minimum of 45 second cd when traited.

X.x I’d like to use Sneak Attack more than once every 45 seconds, kthnx.

They could introduce a condition that disable stealth and block stealth for a while.

Mikau.6920:

They could introduce a condition that disable stealth and block stealth for a while.

Also one that disables illusions, and death shroud. Bah, those are my mains… so nm. Unless you’re referring to those WvW temps :P

I think blocking a stealthed character should remove their stealth. I would also have any melee attack that hits the stealth character to cause an outline of them to be seen.

Stealth isn’t…totally…the problem. It’s the ability to be a total troll with it. In every other game that has learned to balance stealth…it was purely a mechanic to get the jump on an opponent or to escape a situation that was unfavorable. However escaping usually put that escape skill on a decently long CD. Damage also pops a stealth class from stealth…but not in GW2.

In GW@ it is a total troll mechanic…one can poke and stealth infinitely and heal insanely well while doing so. I believe that is where all the stealth hatred comes from…it is for me at least.

The only direct counter to it is being full on tank. Getting lucky with an aoe skill is not a counter.

Stealth NEEDS some balancing in this game.

Amun Ra.6435:

Stealth isn’t…totally…the problem. It’s the ability to be a total troll with it. In every other game that has learned to balance stealth…it was purely a mechanic to get the jump on an opponent or to escape a situation that was unfavorable. However escaping usually put that escape skill on a decently long CD. Damage also pops a stealth class from stealth…but not in GW2.

In GW@ it is a total troll mechanic…one can poke and stealth infinitely and heal insanely well while doing so. I believe that is where all the stealth hatred comes from…it is for me at least.

The only direct counter to it is being full on tank. Getting lucky with an aoe skill is not a counter.

Stealth NEEDS some balancing in this game.

In CoH you were in stealth about 80% of the time on a Stalker, so not every game :P Also in SwTor you were pretty much in stealth the majority of the time on a couple classes.

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Amun Ra.6435:

Stealth isn’t…totally…the problem. It’s the ability to be a total troll with it. In every other game that has learned to balance stealth…it was purely a mechanic to get the jump on an opponent or to escape a situation that was unfavorable. However escaping usually put that escape skill on a decently long CD. Damage also pops a stealth class from stealth…but not in GW2.

In GW@ it is a total troll mechanic…one can poke and stealth infinitely and heal insanely well while doing so. I believe that is where all the stealth hatred comes from…it is for me at least.

The only direct counter to it is being full on tank. Getting lucky with an aoe skill is not a counter.

Stealth NEEDS some balancing in this game.

In CoH you were in stealth about 80% of the time on a Stalker, so not every game :P Also in SwTor you were pretty much in stealth the majority of the time on a couple classes.

Ok, every successful game. :-P

Amun Ra.6435:

Ok, every successful game. :-P

Rude! Also, how dare you. CoH came out around the same time as WoW, it just died 8 years in :P Now ToR, I’ll give you that XD

Stealth itself is not a problem.

Handing it without any drawbacks except not being able to stealth again for 3/4 secs if you land and attack, while retaining all the dmg mobility and being able to chain it over and over… yes, might cause few issues.

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

In CoH you were in stealth about 80% of the time on a Stalker, so not every game :P Also in SwTor you were pretty much in stealth the majority of the time on a couple classes.

Yes, but Stalker’s were unstealthed upon attacking, and you couldn’t jump right back into it (at least in the PvE environment).

Why did you have to bring up CoH. :melancholy:
I miss my heroes.

Neural.1824:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

In CoH you were in stealth about 80% of the time on a Stalker, so not every game :P Also in SwTor you were pretty much in stealth the majority of the time on a couple classes.

Yes, but Stalker’s were unstealthed upon attacking, and you couldn’t jump right back into it (at least in the PvE environment).

Why did you have to bring up CoH. :melancholy:
I miss my heroes.

I make myself sad every time I mention it :P But most stalkers had Phase shift, even with the “new” way of being able to attack phase shifters with phase shift, it was pretty easy to get back into stealth. You also had placate.

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

I make myself sad every time I mention it :P But most stalkers had Phase shift, even with the “new” way of being able to attack phase shifters with phase shift, it was pretty easy to get back into stealth.

I had a dual blade stalker named Ann Xiety. Don’t remember what powerset she used, but it was one of the most enjoyable melee characters I played in that game.

I like the stealth in GW2, but I’m on the fence about it in regards to thieves. For the sake of realism, it seems like a thief should be revealed when taking damage, but still not sure how that would need to be balanced. Once you start messing with reveal, the problem becomes no-one wanting to play a thief because they are glass cannons and simply get splattered.

My thief is a P/D condition one >.> I use stealth just to apply more bleed stacks :P Or run the hell out of a bad situation lol.

Problem is there are two kind of stealthers, those who know how to use it, and spammers.

Spammers just use it all the time to make for a infuriating experience, all that while dispensing 8k backstabs that cant be stopped with aegis nor shields because you can block them but it wont matter, it wont get them ut of stealth until it lands.

Then there are the people who know how to sue it and do the same exat thing as the spammers but these people are smart enough to walk around the only possible thing that damage them; AoE. But then again, you can land one or 2 ticks on AoE on them but due to their free regen, swiftness while in stealth they will heal it off and get out of the field before its too late.

As you can see the only thieves/mesmers you should be able to kill are those who have no knowledge of the game and its mechanics, everyone else has a free way with stealth. The main reason I dont step ino sPvP and why i havent considered PvP seriously and nobody else will ever take it seriously as an esport is because of the poor balance this game has. Everything was built on PvE, there are no PvE differentiation, even though this game has so many fewer skills that other games in other games we still have, one year into release only 2 devs working on balance, no way they can balance the game.

Its obvious that balance in this game (when it comes to PvP) has always favored Mesmers and Thieves, their “mechanics” are simply too OP, and while you canlearn to counter mesmers once you learn how the clones work, you cant counter thieves because even if you are one yourself YOU. SIMPLY. CANT. DO. SHIET. ABOUT. STEALTH.

Neural.1824:

For the sake of realism, it seems like a thief should be revealed when taking damage, but still not sure how that would need to be balanced.

IMO, the annoying aspect of Stealth is how it can be used freely to reset a fight, so the Thief can run back and return a few seconds later, when all your utility skills are in cooldown. I often see this achieved by combining stealth with the shortbow teleporter, so a thief would still have a common way to escape even if damage revealed him; it simply wouldn’t be as risk free as it is today.

Draehl.2681:

Stealth in itself isn’t such a big deal, but its the ability to completely reset a fight that is OP. It completely kills the ability for a sustained dps build to kill a thief.

Basically this. There needs to be some sort of counter, and right now there isn’t. In other games stealth lasted longer but there were ways to detect it or knock people out of stealth via damage.

There are some good ideas in this thread for counters and I’d like to suggest that maybe if they have a condition on them when they go into stealth, perhaps you could still see the damage numbers tick off of them(even though you won’t have them targeted) and if you hit them with AoE.

I don’t disagree with much of anything that’s been said here but there’s no way ANet will apply a meaningful change to stealth, ever.

SupahSpankeh.8452:

I don’t disagree with much of anything that’s been said here but there’s no way ANet will apply a meaningful change to stealth, ever.

The WvW traps weren’t enough?

/sarcasm
——————————————————————————————————————-
Also, I think if they altered stealth to have a counter, it would encourage MUCH more build diversity in the pvp/wvw thief community. Right now there’s no reason to not spec glassy perma-stealth.

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

My thief is a P/D condition one >.> I use stealth just to apply more bleed stacks :P Or run the hell out of a bad situation lol.

Glad to hear there are still thieves who play like they have a pair.

Yeah, I tried to engage a thief from BG a couple nights ago in WvW. I even stood there in place giving him the perfect backstab…he just kept poking and stealthing…

Unfortunately that’s what most of the thieves do when I encounter them…the others will just spam 2…if they don’t kill me instantly they just run away..

Stealth as it is doesn’t really encourage combat strategery…lol…sorry to any G.B. fans :-)

Conncept.7638:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

My thief is a P/D condition one >.> I use stealth just to apply more bleed stacks :P Or run the hell out of a bad situation lol.

Glad to hear there are still thieves who play like they have a pair.

Not sure if that’s sarcasm :P If I run it’s usually because I ran into a zerg in wvw, or I need to rez a teammate with refuge in a dungeon. Although I do like to troll groups of 3 or so in WvW.

Phantom.8130:

gw2 is filled with gimmick mechanics, mcstealth is one of many. each gimmick mechanic simply shows a complete lack of developer knowledge in whatever area they’re supposed to cover. it’s not that stealth is impossible to counter, or even really that difficult once you learn what to expect, it’s that it’s that the implementation is so absurdly ridiculous and cheesy that it’s a complete turnoff. factor in all of the other gimmick mechanics that are likewise complete turnoffs, yet are mandatory to learn and deal with, and the overall attractiveness of the game plummets through the floor. what’s worse is that these gimmick mechanics are now infesting other games, which makes the overall outlook on the future of gaming quite bleak. fortunately, there are still companies that care about the integrity of their product, and won’t be copying the gimmick mechanics. however, that ship has long since sailed here.

I agree. Gimmicky mechanics conflicts with the players immersion.

As to this games stealth mechanic you hit the nail on the head. The degree in which the gimmick is applied makes it over the top for a lot of people while stealth in other games not so much.

Amstel Steel.2058:

Phantom.8130:

gw2 is filled with gimmick mechanics, mcstealth is one of many. each gimmick mechanic simply shows a complete lack of developer knowledge in whatever area they’re supposed to cover. it’s not that stealth is impossible to counter, or even really that difficult once you learn what to expect, it’s that it’s that the implementation is so absurdly ridiculous and cheesy that it’s a complete turnoff. factor in all of the other gimmick mechanics that are likewise complete turnoffs, yet are mandatory to learn and deal with, and the overall attractiveness of the game plummets through the floor. what’s worse is that these gimmick mechanics are now infesting other games, which makes the overall outlook on the future of gaming quite bleak. fortunately, there are still companies that care about the integrity of their product, and won’t be copying the gimmick mechanics. however, that ship has long since sailed here.

As to this games stealth mechanic you hit the nail on the head. The degree in which the gimmick is applied makes it over the top for a lot of people while stealth in other games not so much.

I hate gimmicks. Like Shouts, signets, banners, illusions, pets. Do away with all of these please.
I agree. Gimmicky mechanics conflict with the players immersion.

So what happens when you have a thief that specced into 30 SA with stealth being his way of defense? Do we get offset with more natural health and toughness?

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Conncept.7638:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

My thief is a P/D condition one >.> I use stealth just to apply more bleed stacks :P Or run the hell out of a bad situation lol.

Glad to hear there are still thieves who play like they have a pair.

Not sure if that’s sarcasm :P If I run it’s usually because I ran into a zerg in wvw, or I need to rez a teammate with refuge in a dungeon. Although I do like to troll groups of 3 or so in WvW.

Not at all, that build actually takes skill and requires you to face your opponent like a real combatant, instead of spamming keys and stealthing away if your opponent doesn’t just keel over and die without a fight.

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Amstel Steel.2058:

Phantom.8130:

gw2 is filled with gimmick mechanics, mcstealth is one of many. each gimmick mechanic simply shows a complete lack of developer knowledge in whatever area they’re supposed to cover. it’s not that stealth is impossible to counter, or even really that difficult once you learn what to expect, it’s that it’s that the implementation is so absurdly ridiculous and cheesy that it’s a complete turnoff. factor in all of the other gimmick mechanics that are likewise complete turnoffs, yet are mandatory to learn and deal with, and the overall attractiveness of the game plummets through the floor. what’s worse is that these gimmick mechanics are now infesting other games, which makes the overall outlook on the future of gaming quite bleak. fortunately, there are still companies that care about the integrity of their product, and won’t be copying the gimmick mechanics. however, that ship has long since sailed here.

As to this games stealth mechanic you hit the nail on the head. The degree in which the gimmick is applied makes it over the top for a lot of people while stealth in other games not so much.

I hate gimmicks. Like Shouts, banners, illusions, pets. Do away with all of these please.
I agree. Gimmicky mechanics conflicts with the players immersion.

lol at sarcasm. I was mostly referring to the part I had bolded, it’s not that stealth is impossible to counter, or even really that difficult once you learn what to expect, it’s that it’s that the implementation is so absurdly ridiculous and cheesy that it’s a complete turnoff.

This game has a high learning curve which makes a lot of people rage at stealth when it really isn’t hard or impossible to counter. I never said gimmicky mechanics are bad, especially in a fantasy mmo with little need to explain anything other than it was magic. But even with the “it was magic” explanation many people can’t seem to grasp that a class can stealth so many times in so short a time frame where the counter is to simply press the right button at the right place and time, hence conflicting with the immersion.

If you guys truly wish to nerf stealth or nerf how often players can stealth, you’re going to have to be ok with an increase in thieves’ out of stealth damage. Backstab is a huge part of pve and pvp damage for dagger thieves. And then you’re gonna need to give thieves other ways to avoid damage, say, give thieves access to aegis?

Shufflepants.9785:

If you guys truly wish to nerf stealth or nerf how often players can stealth, you’re going to have to be ok with an increase in thieves’ out of stealth damage. Backstab is a huge part of pve and pvp damage for dagger thieves. And then you’re gonna need to give thieves other ways to avoid damage, say, give thieves access to aegis?

Most classes do not have access to aegis…this is not the way to handle it either. They do have very high mobility as well as easy access to evades and vigor. This is the reason it needs to change. Stealth has become a crutch to many players and they don’t realize how many other tools they could utilize, but they simply can’t face roll with.

Shufflepants.9785:

If you guys truly wish to nerf stealth or nerf how often players can stealth, you’re going to have to be ok with an increase in thieves’ out of stealth damage. Backstab is a huge part of pve and pvp damage for dagger thieves. And then you’re gonna need to give thieves other ways to avoid damage, say, give thieves access to aegis?

This, but unlikely to happen. The removal of stealth would almost require an entire profession overhaul.

Best thing that can be done for now is just to get better at fighting them.

Shufflepants.9785:

If you guys truly wish to nerf stealth or nerf how often players can stealth, you’re going to have to be ok with an increase in thieves’ out of stealth damage. Backstab is a huge part of pve and pvp damage for dagger thieves. And then you’re gonna need to give thieves other ways to avoid damage, say, give thieves access to aegis?

how about no? No other class has the damage potential they have even outside stealth in PvP. No, 100b doe not count, this is PvP. Thieves already have plenty of damage to go around.

If you dont believe me try going full zerker on any other class and try killing others while remaining alive with more than 70% hp everytime.

While yes backstab makes for a lot of damage, they are, by no means, balanced. Give them more team utility, there, solved the PvE problem. Give them more team utility, there, solved the “balance” problem. Thing is, they dont have much to offer other than damage, and that would be ok, if that damage was somewhat balanced, but currently only 1% of the entire server can deal with it and thieves dont see much play there anyways. 99% of the other part of the ENTIRE community finds thieves impossible to deal with and makes PvP a very bad time experience.

Other games balance the classes around being able to be counterable for at elast half the server. If you dont believe me when i say that a thief can pull up crazy damage even with less backstabs then try rolling any other melee class and do the same thing they do; BURST, kill, disengage with almost full health.

They dont need any more damage, like I said, limit the stealth access, reveal thieves when you block the backstab, damage have a chance to show the thief (not 1% nor 5%, but something like 10% for conditions and 33% for normal damage. Then to “balance” them out just give them some deserved team utility, thats all. Fixed them for PvE and PvP.

Fortus.6175:

Problem is there are two kind of stealthers, those who know how to use it, and spammers.

Spammers just use it all the time to make for a infuriating experience, all that while dispensing 8k backstabs that cant be stopped with aegis nor shields because you can block them but it wont matter, it wont get them ut of stealth until it lands.

Then there are the people who know how to sue it and do the same exat thing as the spammers but these people are smart enough to walk around the only possible thing that damage them; AoE. But then again, you can land one or 2 ticks on AoE on them but due to their free regen, swiftness while in stealth they will heal it off and get out of the field before its too late.

As you can see the only thieves/mesmers you should be able to kill are those who have no knowledge of the game and its mechanics, everyone else has a free way with stealth. The main reason I dont step ino sPvP and why i havent considered PvP seriously and nobody else will ever take it seriously as an esport is because of the poor balance this game has. Everything was built on PvE, there are no PvE differentiation, even though this game has so many fewer skills that other games in other games we still have, one year into release only 2 devs working on balance, no way they can balance the game.

Its obvious that balance in this game (when it comes to PvP) has always favored Mesmers and Thieves, their “mechanics” are simply too OP, and while you canlearn to counter mesmers once you learn how the clones work, you cant counter thieves because even if you are one yourself YOU. SIMPLY. CANT. DO. SHIET. ABOUT. STEALTH.

Just saying, Mesmer’s stealth is nowhere comparable to Thief’s one in terms of uptime.

Decoy is on 40s CD, MI is elite and 90s, Veil is 90s and incredibly clunky to use, Prestige on torch is on a 20s CD (iirc) and have nice effects but iMage is so s*it that almost nobody use torch.

Thieves can stealth with CnD, a meele skill with no CD, as long as they have the ini for that and the target. Or combo HS (up to 5 times in a row) in a smoke field (like pistol 5). Or Cluster bomb (up to 5 times in a row) in a smoke field. And have a stealth related heal, the dome (12 sec alone) another smoke field, a istant aoe stealth, plus various traits.

Atm even Rangers have more stealth uptime than Mesmers trough the new LB skill.

As far as buffs goes, Mes get PU with 30 pts in chaos, and that’s a very good trait…but thieves can get 50% movement speed, faster ini regen, cond cleanse, blind when stealthing, regen in stealth, and access to the stealth skills like BS.

So, Mesmer’s stealth is actually waaaaaaaaaaaaay more balanced than Thief’s one – the only plus they have is Veil being non target capped wich makes it crucial in wvw, but that’s it.

Stealth needs a counter but
Damage should not cause stealth to end. That is way to easy to just shoot in random directions to reveal a thief. If you do that, nobody will play thief anymore and people will just be spamming 1 while running in the off chance they reveal a thief.

“One of the reasons why stealth is so frustrating is because you lose your target, and because of the bad camera angle, you start shooting the ground and lose a lot of DPS, along with needing to click on the thief when he reappears before you can leap to him, by which time the thief already stealthed again and you lost your target again.”

What should change is either:
1. You do not “lose your target” when he enters stealth.
This way, RANGE becomes the counter to stealth.
Melee still hits in front of you, so you do not know whether you are hitting the thief or not.
Range will aim at the thief, even while he is invisible. That way all allies within range will see the general direction of the thief, and having 2 allies with ranged weapons will give you the location of the thief(the thief is where your arrows and my arrows meet if we are shooting from different angles). This does not cause damage numbers to appear, nor do range attacks make the thief lose stealth. It will be a bit more like a “hot&cold” game, but a decent counter.

2. Control moves remove stealth.
Any CC you have removes stealth and applies revealed. Stun, daze, fear, knockdown, push, pull, launch all remove stealth if it lands on the thief. Thieves do not have Stability(unless Dagger Storm, during which they cannot stealth anyway), so it is a perfect match. So if i use an area daze like Pacifism, it should reveal the thief. If i land Binding Blade on the thief and pull, it should reveal the thief. If i pull the thief Into the Void, it should reveal him. If a thief tries to cross Ring of Warding, it should reveal him. etc.
Right now, i know i’ve pulled/dazed a thief, but i do not know where the thief is. If a thief runs through my Line of Warding, he can knock himself down 3 times on it and then run away, and i still wouldnt know he is stuck on my Line of Warding…If the thief is however revealed if he crosses the line, then i am rewarded with good play(i predicted where the thief would go while stealthed and dropped my Line of Warding right in front of him, and i am rewarded by making him lose stealth).

Stealth will always be overpowered as it is a mechanic the victim cant forsee. I havent read through all the posts in here, but I’ll just remind you that the thief is balanced around stealth. One would have to rebalance the class to make it viable, perhaps with more active evasion. On the other hand, I really enjoy stealth and wished they’d keep it like that. I do understand the pointers with resets in mid-combat, but this “frustration” isnt necc a factor in x setting or vs x class in PvP. I have a guardian that can hold his own vs sneakthieves.

nacario.9417:

…I’ll just remind you that the thief is balanced around stealth…

The thief isn’t balanced at all.

Fortus.6175:

Shufflepants.9785:

If you guys truly wish to nerf stealth or nerf how often players can stealth, you’re going to have to be ok with an increase in thieves’ out of stealth damage. Backstab is a huge part of pve and pvp damage for dagger thieves. And then you’re gonna need to give thieves other ways to avoid damage, say, give thieves access to aegis?

how about no? No other class has the damage potential they have even outside stealth in PvP. No, 100b doe not count, this is PvP. Thieves already have plenty of damage to go around.

If you dont believe me try going full zerker on any other class and try killing others while remaining alive with more than 70% hp everytime.

While yes backstab makes for a lot of damage, they are, by no means, balanced. Give them more team utility, there, solved the PvE problem. Give them more team utility, there, solved the “balance” problem. Thing is, they dont have much to offer other than damage, and that would be ok, if that damage was somewhat balanced, but currently only 1% of the entire server can deal with it and thieves dont see much play there anyways. 99% of the other part of the ENTIRE community finds thieves impossible to deal with and makes PvP a very bad time experience.

Other games balance the classes around being able to be counterable for at elast half the server. If you dont believe me when i say that a thief can pull up crazy damage even with less backstabs then try rolling any other melee class and do the same thing they do; BURST, kill, disengage with almost full health.

They dont need any more damage, like I said, limit the stealth access, reveal thieves when you block the backstab, damage have a chance to show the thief (not 1% nor 5%, but something like 10% for conditions and 33% for normal damage. Then to “balance” them out just give them some deserved team utility, thats all. Fixed them for PvE and PvP.

Making up numbers is fun. It works 60% of the time all the time imo.
Stealth is fine this is only a L2P issue not a balance issue.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Stealth needs a counter but
Damage should not cause stealth to end. That is way to easy to just shoot in random directions to reveal a thief. If you do that, nobody will play thief anymore and people will just be spamming 1 while running in the off chance they reveal a thief.

That mechanic has worked in EVERY other game that has stealth…and guess what…people still played stealth classes.

This comment just shows how bad the situation with thieves is and how is does not foster skill building. Thieves who think like this only use stealth as a crutch and will not truly learn how to play because of it.

I don’t think the issue with specifically that we have stealth, just the implementation of it. I’ve not played a thief extensively as yet (have one, but shes only like a 10) so I’m not up to speed on all the tricks and counters.

However, I stood for 10 or so minutes last night watching a thief from my server harrass a guild team (of 5) in WvW without getting below half health the entire time. He successfully downed all 5 members and the vet guard they were hanging out at. Rather impressive, but I have to wonder, if he hadn’t been able to stealth in an out as much as he did, if the outcome would have been very different.

daoc did stealthers right, gave them an ability so that if they are dying they hit their “o kitten button” and can restealth instantly at the cost for 15 seconds you cant attack.

At the very least, stealth could keep them in combat for the duration, and maybe even like 10 seconds after so their speed and regen are slowed. That probably isn’t enough though as I think the main issue is the complete “I win” functionality it has in regards to just resetting or ditching a fight that doesn’t go their way.

I don’t want to quote a wall of text, that i’ve allready written (some of my points have aready been mentioned), so here is the thread for reference:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Introduce-counters-to-Stealth-mechanic-in-WvW/first

Meh, enough with the thief bashing already. Do at least half you ACTIVELY play a thief to even know what you are talking about? Stealth is only short duration, User gets “revealed” when breaking stealth through attack, and inivsibility does NOT equal invincibility. Athief that stays in stealth by restealthing every time it almost runs out is a thief who does absolutely nothing. No damage, just plain adsence, thats all. Time your CCs. A thief “trolling” or even downing and finally killing multiple people can do so because those multiples dont work as a team. Don´t blame the thief because of your lack of teamwork, and before you start about how he can escape every time, he cannot. He cannot escape everytime.

Stealth is a thief´s specialty. take away that and you´d also have to take away ele´s incredible self-healing on literally every fourth skill. Take away guardians insane blocking, invulnerability and blinding capabilities. And that list would go on for every other class.

Stealth enables a thief to run from any situation. Yes, thats right. But you forget that warriors, guardians and eles can do the same if they want to. All the teleports don´t do kitten(self-censored) about a target which can just run faster than you. And there always is a class best at something, why cant the thief be the best at escaping? Thats the theme of a thief, you know, go in, do stuff, go out. Unseen at best, alive at worst.

Stealth is not being removed on hit because of several reasons. It´s only applyable for short durations. because you can get hit by so many things ingame. AoE´s, weapon swings… if you want to have stealth removed on hit, make all skills require a target because otherwise a thief won´t be able to stealth at all. And let´s not forget about the everlasting bug of channeled abilities being locked on a stealthed target.

Revealed is your opportunity window. It´s long enough to react and fully balances stealth considering the previous points. Revealed not happening because of a blinded, blocked or invulnerabled backstab / tac strike has its purpose, because those are easily applyable as well for certain classes. This is the only point where some balancing is needed. maybe stealth should be removed, but only add a 1-second revealed for proper balance.

And last but not least – i cannot stress it enough – an invisible target is still SOLID MATTER. As such, it can be hit by anything. Use your sword or whatever melee weapon you have, and those with pure ranged setups, its your choice! A thief in stealth is going for one single thing: Your back. So you know where he wants to go. learn to predict it. Yes, thats basicly L2P i´m telling you right now. But its fact.

One last – really the last – point is as follows: if thieves and their stealth where that OP, why is a good thief not able to kill anyone? because melee thieves have their downsides just like every other class. They suffer to anything AoE or PBAoE focused like necros, guardians, engineers and elementalists, and they suffer to classes with AI-controlled minions like necro, mesmer and ranger because you cannot troll a AI.

The time of thief´s OPness is long over, stop beating a dead horse. There are a lot other classes right now which are certainly more OP in specific builds than the thief is. But i do not complain. I adapt. Go on, do the same, for once.

TheBandicoot.5294:

…A thief “trolling” or even downing and finally killing multiple people can do so because those multiples dont work as a team. Don´t blame the thief because of your lack of teamwork, and before you start about how he can escape every time, he cannot. He cannot escape everytime…

So…what you are basically saying that is should take a team using great teamwork to kill a thief? If that doesn’t spell out broken I don’t know what does…

In WvW for instance…when was the last time you say a downed thief?…I honestly can’t remember.

And to the rest of your post…all other classes should not be forced into spamming 1 to hit a thief…come on now, you can’t honestly expect people to take that seriously. The truth is stealth has zero counter…spamming 1 or aimlessly aoe’ing and HOPING to get lucky with a hit is not a counter…that rebuttal from thieves is getting old.

“If you want to hit us guys spam 1…L2P” That is just ridiculous.

Stealth has enough counter. As i said, there is already so much AoE and PBAoE going on. Aside that, you simply dont need a direct counter for something which only happens 1-2 seconds and frequently.
Also you haven´t read that a thief stealths for one out of two reasons: to setup an attack – he will head for your back, thats why you WILL hit him with AoE and your so called 1-spam. Or he disengages – in this case you successfully made a thief flee. Thieves have their strength in solo and small group roaming, have their weakness in big groups and zerg fights.

All you want is to not adapt and learn to fight a thief. Why are there so many thieves losing? And i see a lot of them downed even in WvW. Still every class has something they´re best at, and for thief its escaping. Accept it. I also have to accept that i am squishy as hell and cant properly fight a guardian as glas cannon, thus have to get better at it.