Guild Wars 2

There has been a massive outreach lately by developers in an effort to bring the amount of forum misconduct and abuse to an end. I appreciate the sentiment as I frequent the forums often and try to be helpful when I can, and critical when necessary.

I am not attempting to justify the insanity that takes place here so often, but I think the frustration that evolves into flaming is so evident that current systems in the game need to be looked at. The biggest disappointment as of late is the reward system for the holiday event.

I wrote about this in a post on the Halloween sub, but I want to use it again as it is a great example of current systems not living up to design paradigm.

In a recent interview at PAX, a developer spoke passionately about how they strive to implement anti-grind rewards, and how playing the game at a normal pace should be enough to gain the player the rewards they want.

This halloween event completely shades that line of thought. You cannot receive the new rewards by normally participating in the Halloween event at an even pace, because they are locked in RNG boxes. This is not an attempt to call out the development staff. It is a legitimate question, that, given the tone set in the short segment of the interview, as well as the recent strive for collaborative development, deserves attention so that players can begin to understand the path Guild Wars 2 will continue traveling. -

How do RNG based, gem-store exclusive rewards fit the philosophy of normal play being the most rewarding method of acquisition?

I want to know how “normal play” and 15,000 candy corn for a bag, 20,000 for a miniature are related beyond “Most of you are serfs working in the fields for your Trading Post betters”…

Thank you for the post, very well said OP. I completely share your feelings about this issue.

I appreciate a lot the efforts of the devs to start communicating with us more, and i also appreciate their effort to get rid of trolls/disrespectful people on this forums. On the other hand, it will take a lot more then that to gain my trust back (i believe I’m not the only one in this case).

It’s one thing to “make mistakes”, and i understand and will never blame the devs for that (for example the resent warrior’s leg specialist bug).

I also understand that balancing the classes in the game is a long and difficult process, especially if you want to balance pve-pvp-wvw at the same time. This is a design choice i disagree with but i respect Anet decision and it’s been consistent.

What i do not accept as a player and a person is things that go the opposite way of what the game was advertized for and is still advertized for (grind, lackluster story not being improved, lack of attention toward PvP, WvW). This is the main reason for the animosity on the forums. People can get really emotional about their mmos and they feel cheated.

So yes, OP, i agree with you. It will take a lot for Anet to gain my trust back. For the moment, I’m still moderately enjoying the game, not even thinking about starting any insane grind and ready to jump ship as soon as something interesting is released.

The way I understand it is that there is no nessecary grind.

You can get to max level and get full excotic gear by playing the way you want, without having to grind.

Ascended gear, skins, minis and fluff stuff are for people who want that extra goal. They are not required.

I am against the RNG stuff in the gem store, it’s disgusting.
But there is nothing to do about it, cus if people are willing to buy it – without anyone being able to claim it is pay-to-win – then they most likely won’t stop selling them.

First of all, yes, there’s a lot of grind in this game. I don’t really have issues with what the OP is saying in regards to problems with rewards, and I’m not going to discuss that here.

I’ll say only this: I don’t care how bad you think a design decision is, that is completely 100% irrelevant to being rude or offensive. They’re not related. And it’s not acceptable. Even if they were related, two wrongs don’t make a right.

So devs put something in the game you don’t like…are you telling me there’s no way to let them know you don’t like it without being offensive?

By all means, express your dissatisfaction but do it in a civilized manner. Because being offensive is simply wrong.

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Ascended gear, skins, minis and fluff stuff are for people who want that extra goal. They are not required.

I take issue with this statement…not at you so pls don’t take this the wrong way….but I have seen this argument always thrown out there when its about this topic.

That is because all those that you have mentioned are something essential to an mmo. So in actuality, they are required. Fluff has been part of mmo culture since probably its inception.

Its akin to saying you do not need air conditioning and a radio in your car.

Caramel Ham.4891:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Ascended gear, skins, minis and fluff stuff are for people who want that extra goal. They are not required.

I take issue with this statement…not at you so pls don’t take this the wrong way….but I have seen this argument always thrown out there when its about this topic.

That is because all those that you have mentioned are something essential to an mmo. So in actuality, they are required. Fluff has been part of mmo culture since probably its inception.

Its akin to saying you do not need air conditioning and a radio in your car.

I agree with Caramel Ham. I like cosmetics, but i don’t want to grind that much. And if you choose to ignore the “optional grind” (i include living story here), there isn’t much left to do in this game, except pvp/wvw which have a lot of issues.

As it’s been said many times before, a player who criticizes the game is good because it means the game is alive (and i agree that criticism doesnt include any kind of insult, but expressing a disapointment isnt insulting).

Caramel Ham.4891:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Ascended gear, skins, minis and fluff stuff are for people who want that extra goal. They are not required.

I take issue with this statement…not at you so pls don’t take this the wrong way….but I have seen this argument always thrown out there when its about this topic.

That is because all those that you have mentioned are something essential to an mmo. So in actuality, they are required. Fluff has been part of mmo culture since probably its inception.

Its akin to saying you do not need air conditioning and a radio in your car.

I fully agree, but unfortunately it’s true.

Fluff items are much more essential to my enjoyment of the game than gear, but they are not required for me to play the game.

It’s kind of sad.

Caramel Ham.4891:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Ascended gear, skins, minis and fluff stuff are for people who want that extra goal. They are not required.

I take issue with this statement…not at you so pls don’t take this the wrong way….but I have seen this argument always thrown out there when its about this topic.

That is because all those that you have mentioned are something essential to an mmo. So in actuality, they are required. Fluff has been part of mmo culture since probably its inception.

Its akin to saying you do not need air conditioning and a radio in your car.

Except that cosmetic items like skins and minis were supposed to be sold in gem store since the beginning of the game. The game already gives you a ton of similar in-game options to choose from, and everything in the gem store comes as an addition to that.

You knew that when you bought the game. If those additional and optional items are essential to your gameplay, why did you buy the game?

AntiGw.9367:

Caramel Ham.4891:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Ascended gear, skins, minis and fluff stuff are for people who want that extra goal. They are not required.

I take issue with this statement…not at you so pls don’t take this the wrong way….but I have seen this argument always thrown out there when its about this topic.

That is because all those that you have mentioned are something essential to an mmo. So in actuality, they are required. Fluff has been part of mmo culture since probably its inception.

Its akin to saying you do not need air conditioning and a radio in your car.

Except that cosmetic items like skins and minis were supposed to be sold in gem store since the beginning of the game. The game already gives you a ton of similar in-game options to choose from, and everything in the gem store comes as an addition to that.

You knew that when you bought the game. If those additional and optional items are essential to your gameplay, why did you buy the game?

The way they talked about GW2 in the beginning, it was that the cash shop was suppose to be all about convenience. I followed GW2 intently all the way to release, so I remember what they said.

While there is fluff that you can get by playing the game. Those items are hidden under some extreme rng or extreme grind or both. Except for most back items you get for completing LS metas.

Its all about balance, so far Anet’s balance is extremely biased towards the extreme side of the cash shop (Black Lions Chests). I don’t mind that there is fluff you can buy in the gem store. I have spent money buying gems just to buy the stuff there. Anet have to make money somehow….though ripping off players is a completely different story. 2$ BLC keys lol.

So what’s my stance on the issue? Fluff should be offered equally (in numbers and quality) in-game and also the cash shop. Im not saying that they have to be the same items….but they have to be at least equally as cool. Making in-game items not as cool as cash shop items is basically cheating the players.

A perfect missed chance for the cash shop was not making SAB weapons be available in the cash shop. Regular skins were blue but not very glowy. Tribulation mode skins were glowy green and yellow. Cash shop skins should have been a different color and offer glowy and non glowy versions with the glowy version being more expensive.

There are so many missed chances for Anet to cash in on the cash shop….but instead, they picked the easy route and put new skins in BLC’s (more or same amount of money but less work). Not to mention that it encourages gambling or bad gambling habits. Anet is almost a casino lol. I just can’t understand Anets thinking here. I don’t even understand why there isn’t even more fluff in the game. The amount of fluff is completely lacking.

Note. I’m not against SOME items being extremely rare. Rarity has its value. So I would be fine having a very small amount of items be dropped in BLC’s.

Gnat.9405:

How do RNG based, gem-store exclusive rewards fit the philosophy of normal play being the most rewarding method of acquisition?

It’s an excellent question. The answer, I suspect, is in this question:

“For whom are RNG based, gem-store exclusive rewards more rewarding, the player or ArenaNet?”

I don’t really understand. The ‘rewards’ offered in this patch are obtained by doing different content released in said patch. None of it is RNG, unless you are talking about drops, and I’m not sure what can drop. I hope some cool things can drop, just like in every other part of the game.

The rewards ‘advertised’ for this patch are all obtainable by playing the game. The items ‘advertised’ for sale in the Gem shop are weapon skins and dyes, minis, etc. I’m not sure where you are getting the ‘rewards’ are locked behind BLTC chests.

Now, there are things offered through the Gem store: new minis, dyes (from earlier), bone pick (also released earlier), and the infamous Chests. Nothing new added to the chests, but a new weapon set added to 8 or 10 already obtainable with scraps. You do know you can get BLTC keys by playing the game; it may be boring or ‘grindy’, but it is possible to get the keys for free. (Which is what I do, it doesn’t take long…a key every 2 or 3 days.)

I just think stating you can’t receive Halloween rewards without RNG chests is a bit hyperbolic, as you can receive most of the rewards by playing the game, and never going near the chests.

Maybe a suggestion to offer weapon skins, instead of other Living Story release rewards would serve us all better. Something to bring up when the Dev-Player discussions start up, yes? =)

Gnat.9405:

There has been a massive outreach lately by developers in an effort to bring the amount of forum misconduct and abuse to an end. I appreciate the sentiment as I frequent the forums often and try to be helpful when I can, and critical when necessary.

I am not attempting to justify the insanity that takes place here so often, but I think the frustration that evolves into flaming is so evident that current systems in the game need to be looked at. The biggest disappointment as of late is the reward system for the holiday event.

I wrote about this in a post on the Halloween sub, but I want to use it again as it is a great example of current systems not living up to design paradigm.

In a recent interview at PAX, a developer spoke passionately about how they strive to implement anti-grind rewards, and how playing the game at a normal pace should be enough to gain the player the rewards they want.

This halloween event completely shades that line of thought. You cannot receive the new rewards by normally participating in the Halloween event at an even pace, because they are locked in RNG boxes. This is not an attempt to call out the development staff. It is a legitimate question, that, given the tone set in the short segment of the interview, as well as the recent strive for collaborative development, deserves attention so that players can begin to understand the path Guild Wars 2 will continue traveling. -

How do RNG based, gem-store exclusive rewards fit the philosophy of normal play being the most rewarding method of acquisition?

You are going to need to post a link to the interview so that we can make sure there is no misunderstanding of what was actually said. It has become clear that players have been taking things out of context and giving them meaning that Anet never intended (like the manifesto that many many people have misquoted to mean something different then what Anet intended.)

Anyways, it has been known since long long before the game was going to be released that there was going to be cosmetic items in the store, Guild Wars 1 had exclusive cosmetic stuff in its store, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that there is exclusive cosmetic stuff in Guild Wars 2 store as well.

Now we can argue about the RNG. Personally I don’t like the RNG involved with some of the store stuff, so I do not partake in buying anything that has RNG involved. But apparently there are people who do like it and have no problem spending their money on it. Perhaps it is because they feel the items they get out of the rng chests are things they want anyways, so their money is not wasted either way.

Caramel Ham.4891:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Ascended gear, skins, minis and fluff stuff are for people who want that extra goal. They are not required.

I take issue with this statement…not at you so pls don’t take this the wrong way….but I have seen this argument always thrown out there when its about this topic.

That is because all those that you have mentioned are something essential to an mmo. So in actuality, they are required. Fluff has been part of mmo culture since probably its inception.

Its akin to saying you do not need air conditioning and a radio in your car.

And you don’t. Our car has neither because both are not necessary to drive from A to B. I have a smartphone with an app which warns me if there is a traffic jam, though.

You also overlook that you can get a lot of “fluff” in game. So it is not like a car without radio but it is like a car without a special kind of radio.
I take issue with your reply…

I can’t post right now, but look at the interview with Mattvisual at PAX. Also, the problem isn’t necessarily that cosmetics exist in the gem store, it’s that rewards linked specifically to an ongoing event, especially one as vital as living story, are. My main case is the fact that this year, unless you do insane grind or spend money on Black Lion, you will not have access I hallowed specific rewards. Both methods discourage playing the game traditionally, whereas last year, you could acquire at least three of the skins through playing the game and gathering a reasonable amount of materials.

Also, it is unrealistic to compare GW1 rewards to GW2 rewards.

Caramel Ham.4891:

Its akin to saying you do not need air conditioning and a radio in your car.

Bad analogy, you prove his point.

A car doesn’t go faster or consume less by having or not having AC/radio.
They are flavor things you don’t need to have; I had a car without AC/radio from 18 to 20 and now I have one with them, I’m not going any faster just manage to have fresher good times during summer hot days.

Actually I believe you have that in reverse. Design integrity deserves feedback integrity.

Developers don’t owe you anything for your feedback, and they certainly don’t need to make any choices based on your feedback.

Also I always laugh when people call GW2 a grind so…thanks for the laugh I suppose.

When posts are made by team members expressing the importance of collaborative design, communication, and constructive feedback, then yes, we are owed something for our feedback.

Gnat.9405:

When posts are made by team members expressing the importance of collaborative design, communication, and constructive feedback, then yes, we are owed something for our feedback.

No, again, they could want your feedback but that doesn’t mean they have to follow through with your feedback.

I could ask you where you want to eat, but if you make a stupid suggestion I’m in no way obligated to go eat there.

I think you’re missing the point.

Look, let’s rephrase this to mean what the OP (and many others) really mean:

“The thing that I want requires me to do something I do not want to do.”

That could be:

1) Grind
2) Cost
3) Gameplay Type
4) Difficulty
5) RNG/Luck (which can tie into Grind and Cost, but I’ll list separately)

So: “I want a Legendary, but I can’t get a precursor because it <cost OR luck>.” “I want a bat greatsword thing but I can’t have it because <RNG>.” “I want Arah armor but I can’t because <difficulty>.”

The key here is that you want a SPECIFIC item. As far as I’m concerned, ArenaNet has not broken any promises. They said you could have max stats easily, not “any item you want.”

Ascended gear is a more legitimate complaint as it represents a pretty substantial cost and requires crafting (which not everybody enjoys.) But I’d say the vast majority of complaints that I see are from people who don’t want to put in the time/effort/money to get a cool, rare skin.

It’s cool. It’s rare. And sometimes you just can’t have it.

timmyf.1490:

Look, let’s rephrase this to mean what the OP (and many others) really mean:

“The thing that I want requires me to do something I do not want to do.”

That could be:

1) Grind
2) Cost
3) Gameplay Type
4) Difficulty
5) RNG/Luck (which can tie into Grind and Cost, but I’ll list separately)

So: “I want a Legendary, but I can’t get a precursor because it <cost OR luck>.” “I want a bat greatsword thing but I can’t have it because <RNG>.” “I want Arah armor but I can’t because <difficulty>.”

The key here is that you want a SPECIFIC item. As far as I’m concerned, ArenaNet has not broken any promises. They said you could have max stats easily, not “any item you want.”

Ascended gear is a more legitimate complaint as it represents a pretty substantial cost and requires crafting (which not everybody enjoys.) But I’d say the vast majority of complaints that I see are from people who don’t want to put in the time/effort/money to get a cool, rare skin.

It’s cool. It’s rare. And sometimes you just can’t have it.

But not one of these complaints are legitimate. Not even the ascended one. I have ascended weapons, I play 10-15 hours for an entire week, and I just came back to the game 3 weeks ago with 0 weaponsmith, but I have ascended weapons.

The problem is that people, especially people that post here apparently, think that not receiving instant gratification is the same as ‘grinding’.

People are just lazy. They want everything now now now. Well what are you going to do when you have it? Run the dungeons that you apparently don’t like with it? Run the fractals? Farm the world? These are all things you could do to get the things you want, but you want the things first to do those things?

It’s putting the cart before the horse.

I support the sentiment expressed in this topic. The Halloween event has been quite soured by the current design approach and that shouldn’t be happening.

It was better last time and that’s just wrong.

Actually this has nothing to do with an individual and the rewards an individual wants. I have everything I was after. What it is, is a critique on the desire for a collaborative process and the talk of certain game design, but the lack of implemented game design reflecting the desire to follow through with collaboration.

Gnat.9405:

Actually this has nothing to do with an individual and the rewards an individual wants. I have everything I was after. What it is, is a critique on the desire for a collaborative process and the talk of certain game design, but the lack of implemented game design reflecting the desire to follow through with collaboration.

Which again is bull. Do you feel that the designers OWE YOU to change the game to how you see it for your feedback? Or anyone’s feedback?

I already answered you, just because someone asks for feedback does not mean they have to follow through with the feedback that is received, especially when the feedback is bad or misguided.

If you ask someone for a fun activity to do, and they say you should jump off a bridge for fun, are you required to listen to that? Are you required to go jump off a bridge?

Look there’s no reason to get upset, I think I presented my case in a way that provides enough explanation for what I’m trying to convey. Just because you disagree with it doesn’t invalidate it. I understand what you’re saying. Of course the game shouldn’t swing to whatever mood the forums are in.

You also have to realize that there are tons of players who are upset at the direction of the game, an honestly it all goes back to the manifesto – the game’s marketing strategy. People feel cheated because game design that was said to follow through never did.

Now I’m not here to make a case abou the manifesto – take it for what it is. I am however here to point out that there is a lot of similar feedback in the forums about very specific issues that are left unaddressed.

Also, not wanting to farm 10,000 of an item is not being lazy.

I completely disagree there are ‘tons of players’. There are many in the vocal minority of forum posters that complain about it yes, but I have never once seen anything remotely related to it mentioned in game, or anywhere else but these forums.

This game has followed through perfectly on their original stated design goals, the complaints I’ve seen are based entirely on peoples perception of what they think the game should have been.

Also, I’m not upset at all, why would I be? If anything I find the misconceptions and misrepresentations of the gameplay and manifesto comical.

Perhaps it’s because I have played actually grindy games, games where drop rates on items were in the 1/100,000 range. Perhaps I have simply been toughened by years of experience in such games, but GW2 is extremely casually friendly, to the point of lunacy.

I think it’s a bit unfair to bring up ‘Collaborative Feedback’ for the current release patch, as this patch’s content was worked on beginning 4 months ago. I don’t think it would be reasonable to expect them to change the current release’s content with only a few days’ notice. Besides the fact that we have yet to even have the discussions of what who wants. Some people say they dislike items in the BLTC chests. Others, obviously, do like the items in chests. There is less RNG than there used to be, based on feedback, as now the chests use a sort of token system.

As for amounts of materials needed, I don’t know what the best solution is….
Easy to get the materials, and everyone has the item? Or difficult to obtain the materials, and the item is more rare and (to some) much more desirable? Perhaps that is something that can be discussed with the community.

I think that you should stop and strongly consider what you’re about to say any time you are about to speak on behalf of the entire playerbase.

A lot of people play Guild Wars 2 and they have a diverse set of opinions.

I can only speak for what I’ve seen with my friends and my guild, but none of us seem terribly upset about Ascended gear. Some folks have it. Others are working toward it. Others have no interest in obtaining it. Nobody has quit the game over it. Nobody feels betrayed by ArenaNet.

I honestly wish we would just let the Manifesto go and have a discussion about where GW2 is and where it should go from here. Constantly referring back to a years-old video and evaluating whether the game strictly confines to the ideas presented there is silly.

Ahlen.7591:

Gnat.9405:

Actually this has nothing to do with an individual and the rewards an individual wants. I have everything I was after. What it is, is a critique on the desire for a collaborative process and the talk of certain game design, but the lack of implemented game design reflecting the desire to follow through with collaboration.

Which again is bull. Do you feel that the designers OWE YOU to change the game to how you see it for your feedback? Or anyone’s feedback?

I already answered you, just because someone asks for feedback does not mean they have to follow through with the feedback that is received, especially when the feedback is bad or misguided.

If you ask someone for a fun activity to do, and they say you should jump off a bridge for fun, are you required to listen to that? Are you required to go jump off a bridge?

Wow — a bit of pent up hostility?

You’re trying to sway your argument by calling feedback “bad” — not all feedback is bad. In fact I’ve seen some excellent feedback in these same forums. It doesn’t help your argument as it immediately outcasts players who make constructive feedback.

Regardless, the OPs point was valid. There are two, incongruent operations going on — what’s sold to the public (i.e. pax interview) and what’s implemented in the game (i.e. 15000 candy corn for a 20-slot bag). If you fail to see some of these conflicts then don’t bother replying, we’re never going to agree.

I don’t expect everything in the game to be handed out for free. However most should be obtainable by casual play (i.e. playing for 10hrs a week). A bag for 15000 corn is on the grindy side. A different route could have been a bag for “one token” where that token requires a difficult 2hr run through a new dungeon path. That’s very doable for the time available to a casual player.

Keep in mind that “casual” does not mean “unskilled”, “untalented”, nor “unmotivated”. It’s simply a category of players that aren’t in this game many hours a week.

juno.1840:

Ahlen.7591:

Gnat.9405:

Actually this has nothing to do with an individual and the rewards an individual wants. I have everything I was after. What it is, is a critique on the desire for a collaborative process and the talk of certain game design, but the lack of implemented game design reflecting the desire to follow through with collaboration.

Which again is bull. Do you feel that the designers OWE YOU to change the game to how you see it for your feedback? Or anyone’s feedback?

I already answered you, just because someone asks for feedback does not mean they have to follow through with the feedback that is received, especially when the feedback is bad or misguided.

If you ask someone for a fun activity to do, and they say you should jump off a bridge for fun, are you required to listen to that? Are you required to go jump off a bridge?

Wow — a bit of pent up hostility?

You’re trying to sway your argument by calling feedback “bad” — not all feedback is bad. In fact I’ve seen some excellent feedback in these same forums. It doesn’t help your argument as it immediately outcasts players who make constructive feedback.

Regardless, the OPs point was valid. There are two, incongruent operations going on — what’s sold to the public (i.e. pax interview) and what’s implemented in the game (i.e. 15000 candy corn for a 20-slot bag). If you fail to see some of these conflicts then don’t bother replying, we’re never going to agree.

I don’t expect everything in the game to be handed out for free. However most should be obtainable by casual play (i.e. playing for 10hrs a week). A bag for 15000 corn is on the grindy side. A different route could have been a bag for “one token” where that token requires a difficult 2hr run through a new dungeon path. That’s very doable for the time available to a casual player.

Keep in mind that “casual” does not mean “unskilled”, “untalented”, nor “unmotivated”. It’s simply a category of players that aren’t in this game many hours a week.

Constructive feedback is entirely subjective based on the perception and biases of the person offering it. Just because you feel that your feedback was constructive or good, doesn’t mean that others feel the same way.

Also, I am casual player. I play 10-15 hours in an entire week, and yet still manage to get ascended items, so I don’t like the excuse of casual being used.

And again, I’m not being hostile at all, or even upset. I’m sitting at work waiting for code to compile and passing the time by arguing on the forums.

When I say “You” it is the general use, rather than the specific focusing on one person, sorry if that was misunderstood.

The argument about forums being the vocal minority is not a good one, considering this is where the feedback is. It’s also the feedback that we have access to. We don’t know what data they collect.

As far as using this event as an indicator of collaborative development, you are right -it was a failure on my behalf to recognize time frames.

My argument still stands, though. There are core deficiencies that have been problematic for players from the beginning. Casual friendly is true, and I agree that the most dedicated players should be the most rewarded, but the question is, does accepting the bare minimum in terms of rewards equate to playing the game normally to get what you want?

Aside from rewards, problems such as build effectiveness and viability continue to persist, skill balance is always a topic, time gates are a big issue, and WvW issues pop up often. It’s obvious that any game will have its share of problems but a lot of the ones that fit these categories continuously receive feedback an continuously go unchanged.

juno.1840:

Regardless, the OPs point was valid. There are two, incongruent operations going on — what’s sold to the public (i.e. pax interview) and what’s implemented in the game (i.e. 15000 candy corn for a 20-slot bag). If you fail to see some of these conflicts then don’t bother replying, we’re never going to agree.

I don’t expect everything in the game to be handed out for free. However most should be obtainable by casual play (i.e. playing for 10hrs a week). A bag for 15000 corn is on the grindy side. A different route could have been a bag for “one token” where that token requires a difficult 2hr run through a new dungeon path. That’s very doable for the time available to a casual player.

Keep in mind that “casual” does not mean “unskilled”, “untalented”, nor “unmotivated”. It’s simply a category of players that aren’t in this game many hours a week.

You know there’s tons of other ways to get 20-slot bags, right? I’d agree with you if that was THE ONLY WAY, but this is just a way to make candy corn semi-valuable.

Candy corn prices should stabilize somewhere around 1/10000th of a 20-slot bag (assuming no other rewards are more valuable.) Right now, that 20-slot bag costs 68c * 10000 = 68g with corn. Most 20-slot bags are 12g-ish. So the logic behind 10k corn is that candy corn should be worth about 12c each.

What was the price of corn before somebody bought it all up on July 7th?

9c.

The bags are priced appropriately.

EDIT: sorry, bags are 15k? If you re-do my numbers above, that just means the price for corn should be 8c which is even closer than my example. Looks like they just extrapolated the stable price of corn to get the amount required.

I don’t think I’m speaking on behalf of the entire player base, I’m taking examples that are used every day in the forums. And like another poster said, we will either agree or not – all feedback is subjective, but they still ask for it. That’s how collaboration works.

Also, you’re missing the point as Far as the bag is concerned. Rewards should be obtainable by playing the game at a casual pace. Playing the game to get a reward that is specific to this event should be totally possible for people with limited play time without having to go outside of the event and use other methods to acquire it. I don’t think buying candy from the auction house is an acceptable alternative for those that want to gain the rewards by participating in the content, and at current rates, it is unlikely that a casual player will achieve that.

Obviously the situation is different for content that will remain in the game, but considering you wot always be able to farm candy corn, it’s unreasonable.

Ahlen.7591:

Constructive feedback is entirely subjective based on the perception and biases of the person offering it. Just because you feel that your feedback was constructive or good, doesn’t mean that others feel the same way.

Also, I am casual player. I play 10-15 hours in an entire week, and yet still manage to get ascended items, so I don’t like the excuse of casual being used.

And again, I’m not being hostile at all, or even upset. I’m sitting at work waiting for code to compile and passing the time by arguing on the forums.

When I say “You” it is the general use, rather than the specific focusing on one person, sorry if that was misunderstood.

I’m also compiling code lol — the forums are a nice distraction!

This really isn’t about ascended, or even the candy-corn bags. I have a couple ascended weps myself (although I’m closer to 25 hrs a week in-game which isn’t casual according to my spouse).

The candy-corn bags was simply an example of a grindy item which is incongruent with the pax-interview statements. I could care less about the item as I won’t be grinding for it.

@timmyf: If you use “value” to represent in-game currency, then yes your argument of 15000 candy corns at 8c each is reasonable. However think of “value” as your own personal time (which is almost the only thing of value when playing this game). The value for the candy-corn bag GREATLY outweighs the value of a crafted 20-slot bag in these terms. Keep in mind that I’m not getting the candy corn bag for “free” because I could sell the 15000 corns on the TP for more gp than it would cost me to craft a 20-slot bag.

Gnat.9405:

I don’t think I’m speaking on behalf of the entire player base, I’m taking examples that are used every day in the forums. And like another poster said, we will either agree or not – all feedback is subjective, but they still ask for it. That’s how collaboration works.

Also, you’re missing the point as Far as the bag is concerned. Rewards should be obtainable by playing the game at a casual pace. Playing the game to get a reward that is specific to this event should be totally possible for people with limited play time without having to go outside of the event and use other methods to acquire it. I don’t think buying candy from the auction house is an acceptable alternative for those that want to gain the rewards by participating in the content, and at current rates, it is unlikely that a casual player will achieve that.

You have to understand that the forums are an extreme minority of the player-base. If I had to pull a number out of my kitten , the forums would probably be less than 1% of the player-base.

I understand that completely, but as recent developer communication has proved, there is a place for feedback and this is it. Like I said, this is what we have access to, what we have relative power in.

A developer saying “please give constructive feedback in X threads” is a thing that happened recently. If be very surprised and would probably stop coming to the forums if they said “well post here for feedback but since there are so few players posting we won’t really consider it”

When I say most players, I am talking about most that post here. No one can argue that the forums are plagued with negativity.

Ahlen.7591:

You have to understand that the forums are an extreme minority of the player-base. If I had to pull a number out of my kitten , the forums would probably be less than 1% of the player-base.

More like less than 0.01%.

Assuming an active population of about 2 million players, a huge hot topic that receives 200 posts by separate people (4-5 forum pages) represents 0.01% of those two millions.

juno.1840:

@timmyf: If you use “value” to represent in-game currency, then yes your argument of 15000 candy corns at 8c each is reasonable. However think of “value” as your own personal time (which is almost the only thing of value when playing this game). The value for the candy-corn bag GREATLY outweighs the value of a crafted 20-slot bag in these terms. Keep in mind that I’m not getting the candy corn bag for “free” because I could sell the 15000 corns on the TP for more gp than it would cost me to craft a 20-slot bag.

Right now, yes. Candy Corn is in disequilibrium. It will eventually come down in price. My point was more that they choice a quantity of Candy Corn based on the information they had – that its final value is roughly 8-10 copper each – and that the choice is reasonable.

The current price of corn, however, is not reasonable. There was a shock, so to speak, to the supply when somebody bought about 4 million pieces. (Or many people. I don’t know who would have the inventory to manage this alone, but I guess somebody does.) Then there was a demand shock when ArenaNet announced the 20-slot bags and other items.

Players who buy bags with corn are behaving irrationally. VERY irrationally. So: sell your corn and buy a 20-slot bag with it.

I don’t understand why anybody would complain about this. It makes ZERO sense to use corn for bags.

It’s a complaint because ANet has made it a goal, and one that seems accepted as unreasonable. You seem to be making the case that they designed this bag to prove how irrational it is to work for it. That isn’t the case.

timmyf.1490:

juno.1840:

@timmyf: If you use “value” to represent in-game currency, then yes your argument of 15000 candy corns at 8c each is reasonable. However think of “value” as your own personal time (which is almost the only thing of value when playing this game). The value for the candy-corn bag GREATLY outweighs the value of a crafted 20-slot bag in these terms. Keep in mind that I’m not getting the candy corn bag for “free” because I could sell the 15000 corns on the TP for more gp than it would cost me to craft a 20-slot bag.

Right now, yes. Candy Corn is in disequilibrium. It will eventually come down in price. My point was more that they choice a quantity of Candy Corn based on the information they had – that its final value is roughly 8-10 copper each – and that the choice is reasonable.

The current price of corn, however, is not reasonable. There was a shock, so to speak, to the supply when somebody bought about 4 million pieces. (Or many people. I don’t know who would have the inventory to manage this alone, but I guess somebody does.) Then there was a demand shock when ArenaNet announced the 20-slot bags and other items.

Players who buy bags with corn are behaving irrationally. VERY irrationally. So: sell your corn and buy a 20-slot bag with it.

I don’t understand why anybody would complain about this. It makes ZERO sense to use corn for bags.

People are complaining because it makes zero sense to use corn for bags.

AntiGw.9367:

Ahlen.7591:

You have to understand that the forums are an extreme minority of the player-base. If I had to pull a number out of my kitten , the forums would probably be less than 1% of the player-base.

More like less than 0.01%.

Assuming an active population of about 2 million players, a huge hot topic that receives 200 posts by separate people (4-5 forum pages) represents 0.01% of those two millions.

I believe there’s an active population of 400,000 though, not 2 million.

Ahlen.7591:

AntiGw.9367:

Ahlen.7591:

You have to understand that the forums are an extreme minority of the player-base. If I had to pull a number out of my kitten , the forums would probably be less than 1% of the player-base.

More like less than 0.01%.

Assuming an active population of about 2 million players, a huge hot topic that receives 200 posts by separate people (4-5 forum pages) represents 0.01% of those two millions.

I believe there’s an active population of 400,000 though, not 2 million.

Ok then, less than 0.05%. Not better

Although I’m skeptical about those 400k.

juno.1840:

People are complaining because it makes zero sense to use corn for bags.

But WHYYYYYYY? Why complain? Just don’t use it on bags! Sell it! Buy bags! Use it on something else!

So you don’t think that if a process is accepted as unreasonable that people should give feedback as to why it is unreasonable? I think ANet would like to hear what is not working. I doubt their response would be quite like yours. “Well then don’t do it” is not a good answer. Especially for time restricted content

I think that if a process which is REQUIRED or UNIQUE is unreasonable, it could use a post. But if there are two options, one reasonable and one unreasonable, (as is the case here), you should ignore it and move on.

Vayne.8563:

First of all, yes, there’s a lot of grind in this game. I don’t really have issues with what the OP is saying in regards to problems with rewards, and I’m not going to discuss that here.

I’ll say only this: I don’t care how bad you think a design decision is, that is completely 100% irrelevant to being rude or offensive. They’re not related. And it’s not acceptable. Even if they were related, two wrongs don’t make a right.

So devs put something in the game you don’t like…are you telling me there’s no way to let them know you don’t like it without being offensive?

By all means, express your dissatisfaction but do it in a civilized manner. Because being offensive is simply wrong.

You and I have disagreed here in these forums on several issues, but in general I agree with the thrust of your post. The problem is … it was exactly the frustration-fueled vitriol in these forums that caused ANet to float their recent (and welcome) initiative toward better collaboration with players. The forums were filled with constructive and generally respectful posts during the first six months after launch, and it’s really only been the last two or three months that turned the forums so abusively negative. Instead of reacting to constructive posts in a timely and favorable manner, ANet publicly dismissed us as merely a vocal minority and totally ignored concerns about the direction of the game. It wasn’t until the forums became such a publicity nightmare for the game that they decided to do anything.

The sad thing is that ANet has actually made “winners” out of the worst offenders.

Nike.2631:

I want to know how “normal play” and 15,000 candy corn for a bag, 20,000 for a miniature are related beyond “Most of you are serfs working in the fields for your Trading Post betters”…

Really? I have not yet checked out the price for the bag but I was hoping to get one. But is it really 15k candy corns?!? I’ve spent four hours in the labyrinth and have accumulated fewer than 200 candy corns. How can that bag be obtained in any way other than grinding short of buying candy corns? According to my calculations, grinding out 15k candy corns would take on the order of 300 hours or 12.5 entire days.

Ahlen.7591:

AntiGw.9367:

Ahlen.7591:

You have to understand that the forums are an extreme minority of the player-base. If I had to pull a number out of my kitten , the forums would probably be less than 1% of the player-base.

More like less than 0.01%.

Assuming an active population of about 2 million players, a huge hot topic that receives 200 posts by separate people (4-5 forum pages) represents 0.01% of those two millions.

I believe there’s an active population of 400,000 though, not 2 million.

Actually it’s 2.5 million with a concurrency of 460,000 (concurrency is the number of players logged in at the same time).