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Posted by: Serophous.9085

Serophous.9085

Well, what would people do if there was no grind in the game?

Complain that the game is too grindy.

1. Complain that there is nothing to do, cause did everything
2. Complain its too hard, because without farming, you would want to try and prevent people from completing the content too fast
3. Complain about the time-lockout stuff that would be implemented to slow players down.

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Posted by: Triggerbrand.8072

Triggerbrand.8072

Who said you need full ascended for raids? Heck you don’t even need ascended for it. Bad players on the other hand think they do.

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Posted by: THuGaNoMiX.5036

THuGaNoMiX.5036

If you think this game is grindy then you are the definition of “noob” in the MMORPG world.

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Posted by: convenience.2057

convenience.2057

What one thing people seem to be forgetting about grind and how it relates to GW2 is that it adds for replay-ability.

I feel this is an important point but a highly subjective one.

In my case, the introduction of ascended weapons and armor, and trinkets added a large additional time-sink, because in my mind a character without ascended gear essentially became the same as a character who wasn’t level 80 – IE, not finished.

But I have never enjoyed the process of actually acquiring ascended gear. I think that the addition of a new gear tier changes the mindset of many players (it certainly did for me) and I think that there is a significant difference between a time-sink you choose to pursue, and one you feel compelled to pursue.

To break it down a little further, prior to the introduction of ascended gear I would:
-Do map exploration, complete story on alts, mess around in jumping puzzles, anything else I felt like. I only played for enjoyment, because my characters were all finished already. There was no feeling of pressure, nor of requirement to do certain activities as my characters had gotten where I wanted them to be. I was free to do the things I wanted to, because exotic was relatively easy to get and I’d already gotten what I needed. If I did want to gear up someone new, I could get most of it by running a few dungeons with friends now and again until I had enough to get most of the items, apart from the trinkets. I was able to play the game in a relaxed, meandering fashion that I found appealing.

After the introduction of ascended gear:
-I began to value my time in units of gold or materials per hour, I began to spend large amounts of time building up materials such as dragonite, I started to avoid doing any activities that didn’t contribute to the completion of my characters (IE, ascended gear). Doing the dailies to get laurels and doing the daily fractals for a chance at ascended gear (when that feature was added) became a mandatory (albeit purely in my own perception) part of my daily login routine. My activities started to become funneled towards wealth acquisition because wealth became necessary to finish my characters, and because my ability to acquire wealth was limited by time I ended up having to sacrifice activities I might have otherwise pursued in the past.

Essentially I was no longer able to just log in and enjoy what I wanted to, and instead felt compelled to finish my characters. I have similar feelings towards daily rewards (I have since they were introduced shortly after launch), which encourage you to log in every day, and at the same time make you feel like you are missing out if you do not log in.

It’s a double edged sword that affects many MMOs. Players may end up spending more time playing the game, but they may also find themselves enjoying the activities they feel compelled to complete inside said game less and less.

I think it’s also an issue because after a while, acquisition of gear becomes the main reason people are actually playing the game. They may no longer be enjoying the content they are doing, but they keep on playing it because that same gear centered compulsion is there.

I think that this sort of gear focus (though other motivators can have a similar effect depending on the game) has lead to burn out in a great many MMO player in the past, and even in GW2 I think that probably still happens – when someone finally does finish acquiring enough gear that the compulsion to acquire it diminishes or disappears, what are the chances that pure enjoyment of the game will return to take it’s place?

(edited by convenience.2057)

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Posted by: Aldath.1275

Aldath.1275

What one thing people seem to be forgetting about grind and how it relates to GW2 is that it adds for replay-ability.

I feel this is an important point but a highly subjective one.

In my case, the introduction of ascended weapons and armor, and trinkets added a large additional time-sink, because in my mind a character without ascended gear essentially became the same as a character who wasn’t level 80 – IE, not finished.

But I have never enjoyed the process of actually acquiring ascended gear. I think that the addition of a new gear tier changes the mindset of many players (it certainly did for me) and I think that there is a significant difference between a time-sink you choose to pursue, and one you feel compelled to pursue.

To break it down a little further, prior to the introduction of ascended gear I would:
-Do map exploration, complete story on alts, mess around in jumping puzzles, anything else I felt like. I only played for enjoyment, because my characters were all finished already. There was no feeling of pressure, nor of requirement to do certain activities as my characters had gotten where I wanted them to be. I was free to do the things I wanted to, because exotic was relatively easy to get and I’d already gotten what I needed.

After the introduction of ascended gear:
-I began to value my time in units of gold or materials per hour, I began to spend large amounts of time building up materials such as dragonite, I started to avoid doing any activities that didn’t contribute to the completion of my characters (IE, ascended gear). Doing the dailies to get laurels and doing the daily fractals for a chance at ascended gear (when added) became a mandatory (albeit purely in my own perception) part of my daily login routine. My activities started to become funneled towards wealth acquisition because wealth became necessary to finish my characters.

Essentially I was no longer able to just log in and enjoy what I wanted to, and instead felt compelled to finish my characters. I have similar feelings towards daily rewards (I have since they were introduced shortly after launch), which encourage you to log in every day, and at the same time make you feel like you are missing out if you do not log in.

It’s a double edged sword. Players may end up spending more time playing the game, but they may also find themselves hating the activities they feel compelled to complete inside said game.

I think it’s also an issue because after a while, acquisition of gear becomes the main reason people are actually playing the game. They may no longer be enjoying the game, but they keep on playing it because that same gear centered compulsion is there.

And when someone finally does finish acquiring enough gear that the compulsion to acquire it diminishes or disappears, what are the chances that pure enjoyment of the game will return to take it’s place?

And for the MMO they’re advertizing, this is what bugs me the most…

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Posted by: Trap Iron.8564

Trap Iron.8564

There is nothing “grindy” about this game. There’s ascended gear for hardcore players, there’s exotics for casuals. Anet did fine here trying to cater to both. If you want the best in-slot items in the game expect to put some time in for them. Not come here and complain for absolutely no reason.

People seem to forget there are a lot of people who actually like having to put some effort in achieving something. This entitled society is horrendous. From running a business to playing a game I can’t seem to get away from it.

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Posted by: MadRabbit.3179

MadRabbit.3179

The only thing in this game you can’t do is high level fractals… Everything else is doable in exotics…

I don’t see where the grind is…

Raids as of now can be done with exotics, heck they can even be done with less than a full group…

Min maxers can eventually farm the mats needed for their ascended equipment….

Grinding to unlock content isn’t really why people grind; they grind out of a desire to complete their character. This concept is what all RPGs are largely based on; the steady progression and development of a character.

Look at the Diablo game series. Those games are purely based on grinding for the sake of grinding. There is no content to unlock; all the content is unlocked before the real grind begins. You grind for the gear; for that perfect collection of items to complete your character and max out their power. People will acquire all the items they ever wanted and yet still continued to grind in order to get more of the same items with hopefully better stat rolls or for small augments to existing gear. Another example is Path of Exile which takes that model to a whole kittening new level; that game is all about acquiring items.

So, really, arguments that either flat out negate the grind, because the gear is not required or diminish it’s significance, because the stat increases are so small don’t mean much. One, if you are making on counter argument on the merits of CHOOSING not to do something, then you should probably stop talking. That applies to everything. Two, neither of these two factors do much in practice.

The most common complaint I see in guild chat is how much people hate doing Dragon Stand, but are forced to do it, so they can get Crystalline Ore? Wait, what? Forced to it? Why? It’s not required, right? People have this mentality and perspective, because the sheer existence of slightly better gear than what you have fuels that addicting compulsion to acquire it that forms the driving force of why people play RPGs.

HoT has taken this concept to the next level. We can all pretend that we all make perfect rational choices and are not influenced by external factors, but it still doesn’t change the volume of people who are paying for gems to buy gold to shortcut their grinds rather than do the content they are “forced to do”.

Rehabilitated Elementalist. Now, trolling the Thief forums with my math.

(edited by MadRabbit.3179)

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

I myself am playing the game mostly to get ascended weapons on all of my toons. At least on their power weapons, anyway.

With the introduction of raids, the writing on the wall became clear: Go ascended or go home. The game difficulty is being ramped up to the point where the extra 10% damage from ascended weapons and trinkets is a necessity, if not by content design then by the tiny margin of error demanding far more from me. Enrage timers take what was leisure and changes it into an imposing demand for performance. Suddenly, I can’t afford to be “not peak” anymore.

Thankfully I’m more than half way done. Out of all of my toons, I only have a few guardian weapons left, and that herald shield which requires me to do HoT story mode. I don’t have ascended UW weapons, but those can wait. After the weapons, I have a few backpacks to make, and laurels to collect for accessories.

And after that… I do other things and wait for the game to get my interest again. Otherwise, college keeps me busy.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: Cobrakon.3108

Cobrakon.3108

People don’t understand the necessity of Ascended gear. This grind is not optional IF, and a big if here.

If you play in WvW. Who in their right mind would want to play WvW at a disadvantage? You might think "wel it doesnt make much difference because people zerg etc etc.

No! it does make a difference especially if roam a lot. It’s like disgusting thinking that you could lose because of your gear. Now skill wins most of the time. But think about those close calls, think about those wars of attrition. Sooner or later ascended gives you an advantage. Maybe not in some mindless zerg train. But there are times.

If you have a single competitive bone in your body and you like playing WvW you have to get ascended.

For the rest of the pve wise, its not that important. Maybe if there were damage meters or something like that then maybe.

I have the blessing of only Playing one class Primarily, I hate to think of the poor guy who runs all the classes.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

People don’t understand the necessity of Ascended gear. This grind is not optional IF, and a big if here.

If you play in WvW. Who in their right mind would want to play WvW at a disadvantage? You might think "wel it doesnt make much difference because people zerg etc etc.

No! it does make a difference especially if roam a lot. It’s like disgusting thinking that you could lose because of your gear. Now skill wins most of the time. But think about those close calls, think about those wars of attrition. Sooner or later ascended gives you an advantage. Maybe not in some mindless zerg train. But there are times.

If you have a single competitive bone in your body and you like playing WvW you have to get ascended.

For the rest of the pve wise, its not that important. Maybe if there were damage meters or something like that then maybe.

I have the blessing of only Playing one class Primarily, I hate to think of the poor guy who runs all the classes.

Luckily ascended trinkets and backpacks are easy to obtain. There’s a cost for ascended weapons but it’s not really that bad. Armor only provides about a 2% DPS boost so can easily be ignored.

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Posted by: bjwhiteda.7645

bjwhiteda.7645

Me personally, I have absolutely no desire to grind for legendaries. I simply do not like how any of those look and the stat improvements aren’t really that great for pve. I find that unless you are heavily into fractals, players can do just fine with most of the current content with exotic gear and a few ascended jewelry. Only reason I made an ascended weapon was because…that particular bow I liked the skin. My main complaint is the grind for mastery. I think it long and boring and inhibits the joy of game play. So i stopped giving myself and ulcer trying to get those masteries and just played the game. I still hate how glide dependant HoT is but it is what it is.

At one time I was like some players whom feel the game is too grindy. Then I stopped obesssing over grinding and the fun of gameplay came back.

Disclaimer
Courteous, intelligent debate from players help devs make a good game, legendary

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Posted by: bjwhiteda.7645

bjwhiteda.7645

Me personally, I have absolutely no desire to grind for legendaries. I simply do not like how any of those look and the stat improvements aren’t really that great for pve. I find that unless you are heavily into fractals, players can do just fine with most of the current content with exotic gear and a few ascended jewelry. Only reason I made an ascended weapon was because…that particular bow I liked the skin. My main complaint is the grind for mastery. I think it long and boring and inhibits the joy of game play. So i stopped giving myself and ulcer trying to get those masteries and just played the game. I still hate how glide dependant HoT is but it is what it is.

At one time I was like some players whom feel the game is too grindy. Then I stopped obesssing over grinding and the fun of gameplay came back.

Disclaimer
Courteous, intelligent debate from players help devs make a good game, legendary

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Posted by: Vix.6730

Vix.6730

Grind always been there during launch. It’s really absurd to complain about grind in a mmo anyway.

No grind/farm it’s as if you “play” a game already cleared, where you get the best items at the beginning.
What is the point to play a game where you don’t have to do any effort to get them? Tell me one great rpg game where you can have the best stuff without effort.

Whoever said they are not willing to put forth effort? In your world GRIND must equate to EFFORT. I get it.

How about challenging boss mechanics? Group-events? Meta-events? Puzzles? Stronghold defenses? Grind does not equal effort. Ever.

(edited by Vix.6730)

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Posted by: Marthkus.4615

Marthkus.4615

Ascended is not as important as a final tier food and utility buff which cost too much to maintain.

So even after grinding you can be at a disadvantage.

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

Grinding to unlock content isn’t really why people grind; they grind out of a desire to complete their character. This concept is what all RPGs are largely based on; the steady progression and development of a character.

No, this is a concept most MMO rpgs are based on. RPG stands for role-playing-game and not “I grind for items” game. Does this often incorporate character growth and increase in power? Sure. But to state that this is the only element is to blantly not understand or missrepresent the entire genre.

Look at the Diablo game series. Those games are purely based on grinding for the sake of grinding. There is no content to unlock; all the content is unlocked before the real grind begins.

Good point, now please go argue with the many people who do not consider Diablo an rpg. If at most it’s an action-rpg and the rpg elements in that game are mostly the story.

So, really, arguments that either flat out negate the grind, because the gear is not required or diminish it’s significance, because the stat increases are so small don’t mean much. One, if you are making on counter argument on the merits of CHOOSING not to do something, then you should probably stop talking. That applies to everything. Two, neither of these two factors do much in practice.

Very subjective point and you try to make everyone have to agree. Well I don’t and I’m sure quite a few other do not either. There is all kinds of players and I, from experience can say, especially older players (I’m sure there is younger ones too) take more joy in the actual game than insignificant numeric increases.

If the actual benefit is so insignificant (for armor it’s 2% stat increase accross the board) and the time invested is so huge and an undesirable process any one going for the stat increases while not ejoying the game is suffering from severe OCD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_disorder). Is this bad? No, but let’s name things by what they are instead of making up bs arguments.

The most common complaint I see in guild chat is how much people hate doing Dragon Stand, but are forced to do it, so they can get Crystalline Ore? Wait, what? Forced to it? Why? It’s not required, right? People have this mentality and perspective, because the sheer existence of slightly better gear than what you have fuels that addicting compulsion to acquire it that forms the driving force of why people play RPGs.

Now you are mixing up 2 different things. People doing Dragon Stand do it for the new legendarys which are cosmetic and as such not mandatory by definition (unless fashion wars, but in pure stat terms not needed). At least you realise that it is an addictive behavior, unfortunately your assessment that this is the driving force for why people play these games is once again off.

HoT has taken this concept to the next level. We can all pretend that we all make perfect rational choices and are not influenced by external factors, but it still doesn’t change the volume of people who are paying for gems to buy gold to shortcut their grinds rather than do the content they are “forced to do”.

Your telling me people with disposable income take shortcuts in a game they enjoy (or not enjoy, hey it’s other peoples disposable income)? Wow, someone inform the news, maybe get some crowdfunding idea started, we’ll call it Kickstarter. Or maybe some kind of casino where people with addictions can spend their money on statistically to them disadvantageous activities.

(edited by Cyninja.2954)

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

People don’t understand the necessity of Ascended gear. This grind is not optional IF, and a big if here.

If you play in WvW. Who in their right mind would want to play WvW at a disadvantage? You might think "wel it doesnt make much difference because people zerg etc etc.

No! it does make a difference especially if roam a lot. It’s like disgusting thinking that you could lose because of your gear. Now skill wins most of the time. But think about those close calls, think about those wars of attrition. Sooner or later ascended gives you an advantage. Maybe not in some mindless zerg train. But there are times.

If you have a single competitive bone in your body and you like playing WvW you have to get ascended.

For the rest of the pve wise, its not that important. Maybe if there were damage meters or something like that then maybe.

I have the blessing of only Playing one class Primarily, I hate to think of the poor guy who runs all the classes.

Luckily ascended trinkets and backpacks are easy to obtain. There’s a cost for ascended weapons but it’s not really that bad. Armor only provides about a 2% DPS boost so can easily be ignored.

Not only that but unless a player is a solo roamer, all their disadvantages of using exotics goes out in the wash that is due to the randomness of zerg PVP.

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Posted by: Loxias.2375

Loxias.2375

The problem with big MMO’s is that after 2-3 years, half the game mechanics are a “response” to the millions of players that pushed each original mechanic far past what was intended. Bots, farmers, bugs, exploits and cheats are the “real” beta testers that create the long-term slope of difficulty (or “grind”) necessarily to re-balance in the short-term for typical players as things advance.

After an initial launch, dev is geared toward survival of the franchise, not creating wonder for early adopters. Thus, the best modern game experiences are had not by playing an MMO long-term, but by guzzling content at around launch times per game, then moving to the next, newest MMO that isn’t poisoned by reactive dev yet.

That behavior is encouraged by modern game companies (and gaming media) in order to sell initial games and in-game items with retail hype to overcome the kneejerk post-development before the inevitable decline of the franchise. This is also why MOBA’s are rising. It’s easier to keep the core game intact while changing “champions” game play, and cosmetics are truly cosmetic and seem to be as or more popular nevertheless.

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Posted by: kuritsutian.2987

kuritsutian.2987

Come to PvP, we have cookies! … lol, maybe not cookies, but got two ascended drops last week alone (armor box and trinket) … as of crafting the stuff yourself, do it slowly, no need to grind, can play several different game modes/maps and still get mats to craft them.

Suddenly in the Forums Everyone is now a Game designer!

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Posted by: CadeRG.4508

CadeRG.4508

I cringed when you compared Gw2 to Tera grind. Trust me, I know first hand what the grind in Tera can do to a man.

Also, you don’t necessarily NEED to have full ascended to do raids and high-end fractals. Just save up your laurels and buy some nice trinkets, and get an ascend armor piece or two and you are completely ready for raiding. And to top it all off, there is very little RNG involved in getting gear in Gw2—you just gotta get the drop and you are clear; no bull-kitten enchanting involved

Memories of Tera…. shivers

Vaulting daredevil leap frog teef of AoE destruction

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Posted by: Khyan.7039

Khyan.7039

Grind always been there during launch. It’s really absurd to complain about grind in a mmo anyway.

No grind/farm it’s as if you “play” a game already cleared, where you get the best items at the beginning.
What is the point to play a game where you don’t have to do any effort to get them? Tell me one great rpg game where you can have the best stuff without effort.

Whoever said they are not willing to put forth effort? In your world GRIND must equate to EFFORT. I get it.

How about challenging boss mechanics? Group-events? Meta-events? Puzzles? Stronghold defenses? Grind does not equal effort. Ever.

If you want good rewards from those, you have to grind. Grind is equal to effort. Challenging boss mechanics? You have to wipe X times before the down, and need to farm it X times for the shiny. Yeah, it’s a grind, and yes, you need to do some efforts.

I don’t see where it shouldn’t be. It’s not in my world, it’s how it is. Grind always been a core in rpg games. You just get different grind degree depend of the game in question. And Guild Wars 2 is not really that much grindy…

(edited by Khyan.7039)

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Posted by: MadRabbit.3179

MadRabbit.3179

Grinding to unlock content isn’t really why people grind; they grind out of a desire to complete their character. This concept is what all RPGs are largely based on; the steady progression and development of a character.

No, this is a concept most MMO rpgs are based on. RPG stands for role-playing-game and not “I grind for items” game. Does this often incorporate character growth and increase in power? Sure. But to state that this is the only element is to blantly not understand or missrepresent the entire genre.

Look at the Diablo game series. Those games are purely based on grinding for the sake of grinding. There is no content to unlock; all the content is unlocked before the real grind begins.

Good point, now please go argue with the many people who do not consider Diablo an rpg. If at most it’s an action-rpg and the rpg elements in that game are mostly the story.

So, really, arguments that either flat out negate the grind, because the gear is not required or diminish it’s significance, because the stat increases are so small don’t mean much. One, if you are making on counter argument on the merits of CHOOSING not to do something, then you should probably stop talking. That applies to everything. Two, neither of these two factors do much in practice.

Very subjective point and you try to make everyone have to agree. Well I don’t and I’m sure quite a few other do not either. There is all kinds of players and I, from experience can say, especially older players (I’m sure there is younger ones too) take more joy in the actual game than insignificant numeric increases.

If the actual benefit is so insignificant (for armor it’s 2% stat increase accross the board) and the time invested is so huge and an undesirable process any one going for the stat increases while not ejoying the game is suffering from severe OCD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_disorder). Is this bad? No, but let’s name things by what they are instead of making up bs arguments.

The most common complaint I see in guild chat is how much people hate doing Dragon Stand, but are forced to do it, so they can get Crystalline Ore? Wait, what? Forced to it? Why? It’s not required, right? People have this mentality and perspective, because the sheer existence of slightly better gear than what you have fuels that addicting compulsion to acquire it that forms the driving force of why people play RPGs.

Now you are mixing up 2 different things. People doing Dragon Stand do it for the new legendarys which are cosmetic and as such not mandatory by definition (unless fashion wars, but in pure stat terms not needed). At least you realise that it is an addictive behavior, unfortunately your assessment that this is the driving force for why people play these games is once again off.

HoT has taken this concept to the next level. We can all pretend that we all make perfect rational choices and are not influenced by external factors, but it still doesn’t change the volume of people who are paying for gems to buy gold to shortcut their grinds rather than do the content they are “forced to do”.

Your telling me people with disposable income take shortcuts in a game they enjoy (or not enjoy, hey it’s other peoples disposable income)? Wow, someone inform the news, maybe get some crowdfunding idea started, we’ll call it Kickstarter. Or maybe some kind of casino where people with addictions can spend their money on statistically to them disadvantageous activities.

I haven no problem responding to a counter argument when it’s level headed and fair, but you are arguing largely against your own straw man or you are just dismissing the psychological relevance of micro-transactions, grinding, pay walls and time gates in video games and asserting that you are above it all and it has no influence.

So since we’re both sharing opinions about what each other have to say, I find everything you wrote to be just garbage and you seem to be so upset about me having this opinion at all that you will grasp at any straw to argue against it.

Rehabilitated Elementalist. Now, trolling the Thief forums with my math.

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

Tells everyone that their opinion is worth nothing:

So, really, arguments that either flat out negate the grind, because the gear is not required or diminish it’s significance, because the stat increases are so small don’t mean much. One, if you are making on counter argument on the merits of CHOOSING not to do something, then you should probably stop talking. That applies to everything. Two, neither of these two factors do much in practice.

Then pulls the “oh we are only sharing opinions card”:

I haven no problem responding to a counter argument when it’s level headed and fair, but you are arguing largely against your own straw man or you are just dismissing the psychological relevance of micro-transactions, grinding, pay walls and time gates in video games and asserting that you are above it all and it has no influence.

So since we’re both sharing opinions about what each other have to say, I find everything you wrote to be just garbage and you seem to be so upset about me having this opinion at all that you will grasp at any straw to argue against it.

Had you been sharing opinions, you would not have told everyone who has a different one that their is not valid.

Then turns right around and starts trashtalking other peoples opinions in literally the same post. Right…

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Posted by: MadRabbit.3179

MadRabbit.3179

Your opinions aren’t garbage; it’s your arguments. You are grasping at straws and have no real point outside of the fact that you are just mad and want to be flippant.

All right, fine. Look, hey, you really want me to show you what I mean…okay…

No, this is a concept most MMO rpgs are based on. RPG stands for role-playing-game and not “I grind for items” game. Does this often incorporate character growth and increase in power? Sure. But to state that this is the only element is to blantly not understand or missrepresent the entire genre.

The only way I am misrepresenting roleplaying games is you if you bring in table-top and LARP which are largely based upon acting in person and not character development.

But, neither of those have any relevance to the discussion at hand, because the discussion is about electronic media. Electornic media variants of RPGs are overwhelming about character development and that character development very commonly involves item progression.

So congratulations, you are right. I have woefully underrepresented variants of roleplaying games that have zero relevance to the actual topic of hand.

You win….something, I guess? The entire point of me stating that was to establish a premise as to different reasons as to why people grind. Whether or not I am accurately represented roleplaying games means nothing outside of you getting kitten because I didn’t

Good point, now please go argue with the many people who do not consider Diablo an rpg. If at most it’s an action-rpg and the rpg elements in that game are mostly the story.

Why would I would argue with them? What relevance does a certain group of people not labeling Diablo as a “rpg” have to any of this? Is Diablo an electronic media game? Yes. Does that electronic media game have structured grinding for items? Yes. Does that give it relevance to this discussion? Yes.

Call it “butt diamond spelunking” or “clicking simulator”. I don’t give a kitten. It’s label has no bearing. This statement by you has accomplished nothing other than making me waste a minute of my life writing out an explanation as to why it’s garbage.

Very subjective point and you try to make everyone have to agree. Well I don’t and I’m sure quite a few other do not either. There is all kinds of players and I, from experience can say, especially older players (I’m sure there is younger ones too) take more joy in the actual game than insignificant numeric increases.

If the actual benefit is so insignificant (for armor it’s 2% stat increase accross the board) and the time invested is so huge and an undesirable process any one going for the stat increases while not ejoying the game is suffering from severe OCD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_disorder). Is this bad? No, but let’s name things by what they are instead of making up bs arguments.

It’s not a subjective point. There is so much research and material out there regarding these kind of behavioral patterns. But I am not going to go the fully monty and prepare a works cited page for a forum post, because you are mad and don’t like what I had to say.

Do the research. Explore the subject. Educate yourself. Or don’t. I don’t care.

Just know that in the absence of that if you are going to approach this topic of discussion with a misinformed opinion that these kind of behavioral patterns are just being commited by a single digit percentage of the population suffering from mental disorders, well, you are going to look pretty naive and pretty stupid.

Like, yeah, okay, WoW had a million subscribers, because the vast percentage of the population just really enjoyed the content and could log off whenever they wanted and all that stuff about addiction was just for a single digit percentage of the population who were suffering from OCD. Right. That level of success was because it was just a really good game and not because of carefully designed grinds with feedback loops intended to keep you playing the game even if you didn’t like what you were doing.

That’s why I find your argument to be garbage, because when you look at the big picture and the sheer magnitude at which these type of things effect people and allow companies to generate money, chalking it up to just some people with OCD is just laughable.

Now you are mixing up 2 different things. People doing Dragon Stand do it for the new legendarys which are cosmetic and as such not mandatory by definition (unless fashion wars, but in pure stat terms not needed). At least you realise that it is an addictive behavior, unfortunately your assessment that this is the driving force for why people play these games is once again off.

No? I am not mixing anything up. You are just making an arbitrary distinction between grinds for cosmetic items and grinds to unlock content and placing a value judgement on one mattering while the other doesn’t.

It doesn’t matter. Like if you extent the scope enough, you can place a big picture argument that none of it is mandatory. As long as whatever the goal is desirable to the player, the compulsion to complete it will be real.

You have completely failed to address the point that if you take just an empirical approach and scan the chat channels there is tons of peoples doing these grinds for cosmetic items and complaining about how much they hate it.

You just flat out dismiss the psychological relevance of any of this by alluding to some degree of fact that you think you have established but haven’t.

Like what did you do to cement your argument as being objective reality and mine just being a subjective creation not grounded in anythign? You linked a wikipedia article on OCD? Good for you.

At least, I am being honest about the fact I am being lazy and not willing to provide references; you are just claiming your arguments trump mine because of some higher authority you are alluding to, but fail to provide.

What utter garbage.

Your telling me people with disposable income take shortcuts in a game they enjoy (or not enjoy, hey it’s other peoples disposable income)? Wow, someone inform the news, maybe get some crowdfunding idea started, we’ll call it Kickstarter. Or maybe some kind of casino where people with addictions can spend their money on statistically to them disadvantageous activities.

I don’t even know what to say to this. There is no greater point to this comment that I can divine. It’s just snarky and sarcastic garbage.

So like what exactly did you accomplish here with all this nonsense? Like what was the greater point outside of you venting and lashing out at me, because my forum post made you kitten? That other people have issue with the chosen label of Diablo? That non-electronic forms of RPGs that are completely irrelevant to this dicussion don’t have grinds? That some percentage of the population is not influenced by the kinds of the psychological tactics used in games like this? I would concede to that, but you are still a long way away of establishing that is the majority, particularly in light of how much material out there suggests otherwise. Like the iOS game market hasn’t evolved into what it is, because it’s targeting a single digit percentage of people with OCD.

So yeah…that’s why I am not exactly trembling in my boots or rushing to backpedal under the sheer force of your arguments. It’s also why I wasn’t exactly feeling motivated to take ten minutes of my day to respond to this kind of trite garbage.

You are just mad and this post will make you madder and you will respond with an even higher degree of sarcasm and salt, posturing yourself as being intellectually superior to me which is the big joke in and of itself, because of how just weak the substance beneath that posturing really is.

Rehabilitated Elementalist. Now, trolling the Thief forums with my math.

(edited by MadRabbit.3179)

For a game that "isn't grindy"...

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

Your opinions aren’t garbage; it’s your arguments. You are grasping at straws and have no real point outside of the fact that you are just mad and want to be flippant.

All right, fine. Look, hey, you really want me to show you what I mean…okay…

No, this is a concept most MMO rpgs are based on. RPG stands for role-playing-game and not “I grind for items” game. Does this often incorporate character growth and increase in power? Sure. But to state that this is the only element is to blantly not understand or missrepresent the entire genre.

The only way I am misrepresenting roleplaying games is you if you bring in table-top and LARP which are largely based upon acting in person and not character development.

But, neither of those have any relevance to the discussion at hand, because the discussion is about electronic media. Electornic media variants of RPGs are overwhelming about character development and that character development very commonly involves item progression.

So congratulations, you are right. I have woefully underrepresented variants of roleplaying games that have zero relevance to the actual topic of hand.

You win….something, I guess? The entire point of me stating that was to establish a premise as to different reasons as to why people grind. Whether or not I am accurately represented roleplaying games means nothing outside of you getting kitten because I didn’t

What do I win? I was correcting you on your white and black statement that all rpgs are the same in regard to grind and character growth.
Top RPG games which have 0 grind of the top of my head and there are dozens more:
1. Vampire the Masquerade
2. System Shock
3. Fable
4. Chrono Cross
Notice how I differentiated between MMO rpgs and rpgs which you did NOT. That was the only point I was making but you seem to have read past that.
The day I get mad about people spouting nonsense on message boards is when I quit posting on them.

Why would I would argue with them? What relevance does a certain group of people not labeling Diablo as a “rpg” have to any of this? Is Diablo an electronic media game? Yes. Does that electronic media game have structured grinding for items? Yes. Does that give it relevance to this discussion? Yes.

Call it “butt diamond spelunking” or “clicking simulator”. I don’t give a kitten. It’s label has no bearing. This statement by you has accomplished nothing other than making me waste a minute of my life writing out an explanation as to why it’s garbage.

While at the same time in no way addressing the actual point I was making. There is quite a big amount of people who consider Diablo games to not be rpgs (or at best a subform of action rpg) which goes completely against your premise of using it as an example rpg to undermine your point of all rpgs have grind and item looting.
Oh and ofcorse putting in snidy remarks which you were complaining about I were using.

It’s not a subjective point. There is so much research and material out there regarding these kind of behavioral patterns. But I am not going to go the fully monty and prepare a works cited page for a forum post, because you are mad and don’t like what I had to say.

Do the research. Explore the subject. Educate yourself. Or don’t. I don’t care.

Sure, I know of enough addictive behavior and how game developers put carrots for gamers to achieve. Now please explain, how does this relate to the topic at hand again besides you sidetracking the argument?
We started off as you putting up a thesis that:

Grinding to unlock content isn’t really why people grind; they grind out of a desire to complete their character. This concept is what all RPGs are largely based on; the steady progression and development of a character.

To which I replied that your argument is flawed and people have multiple reasons as to why they grind and/or play rpgs. I don’t have to show the research is flawed, you have to show that people do not play rpgs for any other reason besides the one you stated.
I never stated people do not grind out of your reasons, I simply again corrected you white and black analysis and point of argument.

No? I am not mixing anything up. You are just making an arbitrary distinction between grinds for cosmetic items and grinds to unlock content and placing a value judgement on one mattering while the other doesn’t.

It doesn’t matter. Like if you extent the scope enough, you can place a big picture argument that none of it is mandatory. As long as whatever the goal is desirable to the player, the compulsion to complete it will be real.

Yes you are. The topic at hand is:
- GW2 is to grindy and ascended armor is to expensive
This topic was established by the name and the original post of the TC. Now as far as I care you can add on to the topic at hand as much as you want, but as far as necessary grind for actual statistical increases goes, cosmetics are not part of it.

You have completely failed to address the point that if you take just an empirical approach and scan the chat channels there is tons of peoples doing these grinds for cosmetic items and complaining about how much they hate it.

You just flat out dismiss the psychological relevance of any of this by alluding to some degree of fact that you think you have established but haven’t.

What I did was stick to the topic at hand and not add in a lot of unneeded convoluted bogus arguments. I don’t care about subjective chat channel mumbojumbo or people spending time on something they are not enjoying. I was sticking to what TC was complaining about and worked off of that.
Should I want to discuss god and the meaning of life, I’ll get back to you.

Your telling me people with disposable income take shortcuts in a game they enjoy (or not enjoy, hey it’s other peoples disposable income)? Wow, someone inform the news, maybe get some crowdfunding idea started, we’ll call it Kickstarter. Or maybe some kind of casino where people with addictions can spend their money on statistically to them disadvantageous activities.

I don’t even know what to say to this. There is no greater point to this comment that I can divine. It’s just snarky and sarcastic garbage.

Simple, I was making a poignant, sarcastic jab at your try to explain all the cash people throw at the game as being part of your argument. You must have missed the memo.
Also again, you complain a lot about tone, yet you have used more gutter language in all of your replies than I have in probably over a year on these forums.

So yeah…that’s why I am not exactly trembling in my boots or rushing to backpedal utter the sheer force of your arguments. It’s also why I wasn’t exactly feeling motivated to take ten minutes of my day to respond to this kind of trite garbage.

You are just mad and this post will make you madder and you will respond with an even higher degree of sarcasm and salt, posturing yourself as being intellectually superior to me which is the big joke in and of itself, because of how just weak the substance beneath that posturing really is.

You seem to have very serious ego issues. Personally, I absolutely do not care what your evening is like, but it’s funny you’d assume I were in any way moved by your non-coherent train of arguments.

For a game that "isn't grindy"...

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: pdavis.8031

pdavis.8031

What one thing people seem to be forgetting about grind and how it relates to GW2 is that it adds for replay-ability.

I feel this is an important point but a highly subjective one.
~snip~

And this is what the grindy/not grindy discussion boils down to. It’s all a matter of perception. You yourself stated that you “felt” that you had to change your play style to obtain ascended equipment. It no loner was fun, and it became more of a chore. Why? Because it was there. We all can agree that ascended adds only a small increase to your overall power. Thus the game provides a long term goal that caters to those seeking the ultimate progression. However, the game itself doesn’t require full ascended equipment outside of one specific are (high level fractals). Which again don’t offer any more rewards than can be obtained from lower levels.
So in the end, it’s all a matter of what players “feel” they must accomplish in game (which of course is subjective) In this way Anet has succeeded. If it took a minimum 120 hours (as you pointed out), that’s 120 hours Anet successfully provoked me to play. One certainly doesn’t NEED to grind for ascended, but it adds something to do.
Overall, it’s about what players feel they need to accomplish in game, not what is required to accomplish in game in order to achieve anything.

“You know what the chain of command is?
It’s the chain I beat you with until you
recognize my command!”