Guild Wars 2

So, for may reasons, a lot of players seem to feel like this game falls flat in terms of MMO gaming. The purpose of this post is to really get some discussion and analysis going about what systems, design flaws, and lackluster structures seem to hurt the social aspect of the game.

What provoked this was the harsh realization that open world content seems to just deteriorate into people hitting a pinata for rewards and running away like selfish little animals. What i mean is, people just mob up, destroy events (which are usually extremely easy and require nothing but zerging, button-mashing, no need for direct healers, enemies that have little to no depth to them, etc.) and then scatter. The world is like a bunch of carnival attractions, but nothing seems cohesive. Part of this, i blame on the removal of the trinity (removal of meaningful, distinct, effectual roles making up team / balance integrity) part of this i blame on the reward and content structure itself.

Some would argue that dungeons fill this gap, but there is really no depth, i feel, in the combat system. Everything just seems homogenized beyond belief to accommodate the removal of dedicated roles. Down state, self-heal button, bosses with ridiculous HP that can kill you in two hits…it’s beyond silly. The lack of depth, the content structure that encourages solo play, the homogeneous class design, etc..it all just comes together to make the game feel like a mockery.

Outside of the gameplay aspect, social features like Guilds get absolutely no love. Guild Missions are coming, but they seem to just be mere contrivances that circumvent the need to really look at how kitten poor the combat and skills systems are. They just seem like they’re going to be yet another grind race like Fractals for the people with large guilds or PvE hermits. I really think this implementation is going to fail at getting people to play together because they aren’t addressing the underlying problem which is the combat and skills. People don’t play together because there’s no inherent structure in it. It’s unnecessary and boring when everyone can do everything and no roles are distinct in combat.

A clear cut list of aspects that make this game very homogenized, casualized, boring, and anti-social:

- No direct trade
- Multi-Guild
- No roles
- Poorly designed combat, skills, traits, combo fields, down state (shallow)
- Encounters are braindead
- Events are zergfests that require no mechanical strategy or player skill
- Players have no reason to actually group in the open world because of class structure.
- No LFG tool
- Can’t bring PvE gear into sPvP

Many other reasons…feel free to add to the discussion.

Dear OP,

GW2 has many good things. Just like the bubbles on a bubble pack. But GW2 is also like a bubble pack when it comes to flaws. Well after you burst all the bubbles.

It’s riddled with either ors.

So if you noticed, anyone serious with change would be targetting a specific issue rather than a sweeping one. Because with generalized posts, chances are Anet brings changes to points raised least cared about. Well not Anet specifically but every large corporation for that matter.

So you do not like that game? Then move on, game is not for everyone, will not make everyone happy. What you might think is a negative, is a positive for someone else. There are plenty of games that are what you want, pick one, they are all pretty much the same. This game is apparently not meant for you.

Completely disagree with the OP on just about everything other than multiple guilds. I do think there should be a limit of 2 or something like that.

@OP, try playing WvW more often. It addresses many of your issues.

Once you say the combat system is poor, you’ve lost all credibility with the number of people who love the combat system of this game (and there are a lot of us). Ditto for the skill system. This is the first MMO with a decent skill system, at least that I’ve played.

And your inability to find the synergy in group combat is more your failing than the games.

Actually, I think most of what you’ve said is 100% true…from your point of view. Unfortunately, lots of people don’t share that point of view.

BTW, my guild is doing fine and has a ton of fun playing this game.

GW2 being very casual friendly really leaves it up to the individual to make it feel like an MMO or if they so choose a single player game with occasional MMO interactions.

What I mean is that there are a lot of people that are very active in their guilds, in the community, in RP events and more. Others are content to plug along doing their own thing and grouping up when needed or not at all if they choose to.

There is so much freedom of choice that for some it is too much freedom of choice and in that lack of structure they flounder a bit.

Personally I do think the multiple guild system is flawed but others like it. Out of all the things listed by the OP though I think that is one of the valid points – all others I think are highly subjective.

MMO isn’t spoon fed to you here; you get out of it what you put into it.

Folk.2093:

MMO isn’t spoon fed to you here; you get out of it what you put into it.

Gasp!

You mean I actually have to do something in order to level? I mean everything could give me experience (even crafting), buuuut it’s sooooooo haaaaaaaaard.

lothefallen.7081:

A clear cut list of aspects that make this game very homogenized, casualized, boring, and anti-social:

- No direct trade
- Multi-Guild
- No roles
- Poorly designed combat, skills, traits, combo fields, down state (shallow)
- Encounters are braindead
- Events are zergfests that require no mechanical strategy or player skill
- Players have no reason to actually group in the open world because of class structure.
- No LFG tool
- Can’t bring PvE gear into sPvP

Many other reasons…feel free to add to the discussion.

My opinon on this.

- No direct trade
I want that. But how does it make the game less like an MMO?

- Multi-Guild
I’m on the fence on this one.

- No roles
Disagreed. Me, like so many others, are tired of the “holy trinity” formula EVERY.SINGLE.MMO before this one had. Nice change!

- Poorly designed combat, skills, traits, combo fields, down state (shallow)

- Encounters are braindead
No, they’re not braindead.

- Events are zergfests that require no mechanical strategy or player skill
Does “Kill 10 Boars” require skill? These are GW2s version of quests, and they’re not meant to require strategy or player skill.

- Players have no reason to actually group in the open world because of class structure.
Bring the player, not the class.

- No LFG tool
Really? How does it make it less like an mmo?! Either, join a guild/community. Or stand otuside x instance and type “LFG/LFM” in /m. It’s that simple, all it takes is some communication.

- Can’t bring PvE gear into sPvP
For the visual, i agree. But stats? Nope. Equal grounds.

They appear to know the game’s weaknesses and have been working on them every month. There is plenty good in this game as well.

And you can not just use blanket statements when referring to the systems in the game. This really ticks me off. There are plenty of good encounters…state which ones you like, what you like about them, and how they should be implemented throughout the game.

In additon, I like the combat in this game. However, I feel that there are not enough encounters that challenge people to use their skills appropriately. This is why I love encounters like the Temple of Grenth, Lieutenant Kholer, Colossus Rumbulus, Subject Alpha, Leurent, Lupi, and others. Those who spam their cooldowns get wasted. In fact, even people who play smart get wasted. But those who stick to it and learn the battles really have fun with it.

I also agree that guilds need more information to help them run smoothly. Last log-in and a guild calendar would be nice, as well as guild halls. But the first two should be priorities.

I like having no concrete roles. I like not waiting 2 hours for a healer or tank, only to have them leave and screw up an instance. I like being able to play with my gf and guildies with w/e they want to bring and know that, if they know their class and the encounters, we’ll be just fine. Grouping is natural…it’s not forced. I play what I want, when I want; I don’t have to

The game needs a better lfg system, but thank god for gw2lfg.com…if I were ANet, I would pay them a few thousand bucks and just integrate it into the game.

I wish that people would point out the good before posting constructive criticisms instead of just posting destructive criticism with no ideas attached.

I partially agree on lack of skill depth.

Where GW had a tonne of skills that you’d have to set up to use optimally (You wouldn’t use Glowing Ice unless you put a Water Hex on first, otherwise you’d waste a source of Energy Management), they’re somewhat lacking in GW2 and tend to be just straight-up damage increases (we have Fire Grab, Spatial Surge increases damage the further away you are, Crossfire only applies Bleed if you’re behind / to the side ect), I disagree that (in dungeons at least) that you go spamming skills outside of 1, weapon skills that just do damage, Shouts (FGJ!) or anything to do with Boon Upkeep.

Things like Stuns, Dazes, kittenF buttons ect you shouldn’t spam. Use them to interrupt and support when things are looking dire. (On a note of Defiant, I think it shouldn’t apply if you successfully interrupt a big attack, to encourage proper use of interrupts.)

As for pre-defined roles and fight mechanics, I disagree.

Giving Aggro Management and Healing just makes the fights neat and tidy. This guy takes the hits, the healer heals the guy and the rest just go through their rotation to bring him down. If one person messes up, everyone fails, as opposed to people being able to adapt on the fly. I view required roles as a sort of artificial ‘working together’, and doesn’t really promote social interaction:

• The Tank doesn’t care about anyone else, unless the healer is not healing him enough, or DPS are aggroing.
• The DPS don’t care, since their just going through their own rotation.
• The Healers only care about the tank, since the tank is important to their survival. Some fights might mean that they need to bring party-wide healing. But their main focus is making health-bars go up.

In short, everyone is still doing their own thing, and with pre-defined roles you don’t need to know what other people are up to, since they’ve already got their job given. Kind of like how you say it is now in GW2.

That tactic applies to every single fight, outside of individual fight mechanics where, if they’re not build around intensive healing, could be easily incorporated into GW2.

Health Degen environment effect? Bring Regen and party heal skills.
Slowed Endurance Rate environment effect? Bring Vigor.
Unavoidable Attack? Bring and don’t waste stuns.
Boss uses conditions to heal? Don’t bring conditions.
Knockdown attacks causes mobs to spawn? Bring Stability lest you be over-run.
Boss uses a lot of conditions? Bring condition removal.

Mechanical fights don’t need individual people taking up individual pre-defined roles. Roles can be set by the encounters themselves.

If you’re looking for roles however, you can easily build to specialise. Elementalists and Guardians make great healers I heard.

- No direct trade
Me: I love to have it, but how does it related to MMO?

- Multi-Guild
Me: I hated that too, really, hardly see loyalty in GW2

- No roles
Me: Roles are bound to player and their build, not by class. It is more like modern military roles, everyone is able to kill but they can also watch over each other, provide ammo, first aid, suppressing fire etc. And i like it this way.

- Poorly designed combat, skills, traits, combo fields, down state (shallow)
Me: Totally disagree, GW1 is better i give you that, but GW2 is superior than other MMO in my opinion.

- Encounters are braindead
Me: most encounters are more casual, i give you that. Braindead? how is it more braindead than using the same formula again and again in each encounter in trinity combat system? In GW2, different groups with different class and build in the same dungeon, each fight is not always the same tactics, this is more interesting than 1 tank 1 healer setting in my opinion. Each player have responsibility to watch over your party members, it is more MMO than leaving the responsibility to 2 players. (To TheDaiBish: your explanation is wonderful!)

- Events are zergfests that require no mechanical strategy or player skill
Me: it is zergfests because everyone can join the fight in open world, i prefer zergfest rather than wait at the boss spawn point for hours, and hope to land the first hit so me and my group can tag the boss and do the fight. Everyone got fair chance to fight the boss. This is actually more MMO…

- Players have no reason to actually group in the open world because of class structure.
Me: Why force player to group? It is fun to group, and it should be the only reason, not a requirement.

- No LFG tool
Me: Agree, this is suck, but this have nothing to do with MMO…

- Can’t bring PvE gear into sPvP
Me: WvW is there for you. i consider sPvP / tPvP are arena, so no personal gear for fair fight… and skins are the only reward for PvPer, so why able to bring PvE gear into PvP? this doesn’t make sense to me… and this also got nothing to MMO.

Can’t see a valid point about less MMO…. really.

All I see is you want the holy trinity and don’t like that the game doesn’t have it.

Every other game has it, why ruin GW2 by saying it’s a flaw? It’s not a flaw, it’s a feature. One many of us are glad exists. If this game had dedicated heals, tanks, dps, I would not play it.

Direct trade. Not needed and does not make it any less or more of an MMO to not having it.

LFG tool isn’t needed. That is what guilds are for. If you can’t find 4 other people from multiple guilds to do a dungeon, that is a player problem, not a game design problem.

What I’ve been seeing lately are a lot of WoW players bored do death of that game and trying to turn GW2 into their new WoW.

This isn’t WoW, and thankfully, never will be.

lothefallen.7081:

…snip…

- No direct trade
- Multi-Guild
- No roles
- Poorly designed combat, skills, traits, combo fields, down state (shallow)
- Encounters are braindead
- Events are zergfests that require no mechanical strategy or player skill
- Players have no reason to actually group in the open world because of class structure.
- No LFG tool
- Can’t bring PvE gear into sPvP

Many other reasons…feel free to add to the discussion.

Now a list of things that help make this a great game:

- No direct trading, prevents the scamming rampant in so many MMOs. You can trade directly to people you trust via mail, but the scammers are out of work here.
- Multi-guild – what a great idea. Our WvW guild has, for example, a couple members that are ambassadors from other guilds. They’ll represent a bit, chat it up, then head back to their main guild. Other companies should be embarrassed for not thinking of something so simple yet brilliant.
- No roles – a shining example of genius, shifting the archaic roles structure to the skills themselves. You benefit most from using the right skills at the right times depending on the situation at hand and aren’t forced into a generic tank/healer/dps role which require little to no thoughts beyond properly doing your rotation.
- Brilliant combat system. I love it… it’s an extremely active, flowing system that depends more on moving, positioning, observation and thinking than the archaic rotation based roles systems. Traits can have a huge impact on how you play your profession, the skills all have value. Locking skills to weapons that have a synergy and being able to swap weapons in combat adds dimensions to the system and removes the truly “bad build”.
- Dynamic Events bring the world to life. I can’t fathom ever again playing an MMO with a static, dead quest bang based method in place. Give me a world that feels alive and where content will come to me (whether I’m ready or not).
- Separating PvP and PvE. Wonderfully done. No competitive PvE prevents so much griefing and negativity and leaves the PvP, in it’s various forms, to be fully consensual. Separate PvP gear in sPvP allows a much better balancing than you’ll find in most games. Another flash of brilliance.

I could go on.

Why some people can’t understand the roles thing?
We’re all tanks, healers and DPS at the same time. It’s so much better than pidgeon-holing yourself into one role.

But you’re right on LFG tool.
It’s kind of embarassing that GW2 relies on a third party site for groups.

lothefallen.7081:

- Can’t bring PvE gear into sPvP

And that’s perfect… sPVP and PVE are completely separate as they should be.

i actually agree on many points of the OP.

What anet tried to do with gw2, is take a deep look at all the little things that annoy people in normal MMOs, or force them into a specific gameplay styles, and tried to “fix” em.

That was very alluring on paper, is very much “next gen” and i’m happy someone is trying to innovate, instead of just iterate on the overcrowded mmo market.

BUT

What has gone unnoticed in pre-development (the phase where you decide HOW every single mechanic in the game will work and interact) is that removing roles, complex skill system, need to party, the classic concept of endgame and so on – not only make the game more accessible and fun to dip in and out, but also more shallow and streamlined.

Having more freedom to do things your way is NOT always a good thing, because people are inherently selfish and arrivist. If there are no practical reasons to group up except for “fun”, then 90% of the playerbase won’t. If in one specific area you can get 5 gold per hour doing a dungeon, while the average is usually 4.59 in all the other areas, people will farm that single instance (even if its just a white square with braindead mobs) and ignore the rest of the game. If there are no class roles, then either everyone plays for himself, not feeling the need to bring utility to the team OR on the opposite side, they will look for only the right classes with the right build to run the content at maximum efficency.

But where is the fun in all this? there is none, because mmos are fun when BASED on that complexity and human interaction Anet tried to streamline so much.
If you play any MMO as a single player game, its actually AWFUL, but that wont become evident until you have some months under the belt, the freshness expired and find yourself logging just to do dailies, run your daily dungeon, say a couple words in chat and then quit with a small sense of bitterness .

I still play the game, and sometime enjoy it, but i’m starting to think there are deeper issues then content or endgame, issues that will require some deep thinking from anet to be mitigated, and probably require a whole expansion to do so.

@lothefallen.7081,1+ This is a really great post and it sums up everything about how I feel about the game right now, well done. It’s a shame all the hype-knights are completely living in denial about how shallow the game really is right now.

Nightarch.2943:

@lothefallen.7081,1+ This is a really great post and it sums up everything about how I feel about the game right now, well done. It’s a shame all the hype-knights are completely living in denial about how shallow the game really is right now.

Or… maybe people actually simply disagree with you and think the game’s still fun. Just because someone does not share your opinion, does not mean they are “in denial”, nor does it make their opinion less valid than yours.

Red Falcon.8257:

Why some people can’t understand the roles thing?
We’re all tanks, healers and DPS at the same time. It’s so much better than pidgeon-holing yourself into one role.

But you’re right on LFG tool.
It’s kind of embarassing that GW2 relies on a third party site for groups.

Some people have trouble fulfilling one role and you’re asking for three!

I can’t stand the trinity model. I don’t feel that it works well, or that playing that way is particularly engaging or challenging. However, I do feel that GW2 doesn’t have the complexity of its precurser. GW1 had healers and strongly supportive classes, but there were different ways to support, to mitigate damage, to deal it out. There were a lot of innovative counters, hexes and enchantments that have no equivalents in GW2 and I do miss them. I miss them a lot.

But GW1 was overly complex, and full of redundant skills on top of that. As GW2 evolves, I think we’ll see more changes to the gameplay, things that broaden how the game is played (new skills, weapons, traits etc.) and I’m hopeful for that. Heck, what GW2 has is already better than the usual trinity paradigm imo.

Uncle Salty.6342:

Red Falcon.8257:

Why some people can’t understand the roles thing?
We’re all tanks, healers and DPS at the same time. It’s so much better than pidgeon-holing yourself into one role.

But you’re right on LFG tool.
It’s kind of embarassing that GW2 relies on a third party site for groups.

Some people have trouble fulfilling one role and you’re asking for three!

Nah… just stop thinking in terms of roles and instead look at what each individual skill does, then decide when’s the best time to use that skill.

I kind of agree on the points about the direct trade and the LFG tool. Direct trade with protection (a final agree to sell/buy button for both parties much like current GW1) I think could be of use. Currently if you want something from a particular player, you really have to play the trust game along with the waiting game. Even a COD option for the mail system would do some good.

I agree with the LFG point. I believe this is being worked on so…

Multi guilding, I’m still on the fence about it. Pros and Cons are pretty much equal so far for me, as I’m in 4 currently, 2 of which are guilds of just me for bank space. I do that in every MMO anyway and the other two are actually sister guilds.

Everything else is pretty much eh imo.

I’ve played many MMO’s since the 90’s and I can tell you that in the majority of themeparks out there, in the open world there was never a reason to group even with class structures. Outdoor open world FORCED group content is a mythical beast. Hmm, last triple A MMO I played has a shining example-TOR: open world Elite areas (yeah right) all can be done with 2 players or one if your a stealther.

The combat here is imo among some of the best the genre has to offer. Very few skills stick you in a animation. Most can be done on the run. That alone makes combat here superior to 99% of MMO’s on the market,( willing to bet more companies will be going down the road anet took).

No roles, hmm….I get what your saying as I too miss the trinity from time to time, usually when thinking of dungeon content in comparison to many of the great dungeons out there in other games. But then again, combat here is just so much more involved, much like an FPS.

Events chain off each other. They are also more akin to quest in other games with one huge difference, you can do them over and over and over again. I guess they are like repeatable quest. Which means you can go anywhere in the world, do an event and atleast get something out of it. That little bit of exp goes towards skill points which go towards crafting a few items. I’m not even a huge crafter in this game but gave myself some mystic weapons. And the reason things end up being a zergfest is because theres no kill stealing, so everyone can enjoy the fun. The fact that there is a zergfest tells you people are doing it because they want to. Added, no open world content that I have played in any themepark MMO has required actual strategy. Required player skill is debatable.

All in all, GW2 doesn’t really hand hold as much as other themeparks which is more in line with what I like, sandboxes. GW2 is pretty young and growing and I have no doubts that it will be a totally different beast 2years down the line. GW2 isn’t for everyone. That could be said about any game/anything out there. This is a launch title that has dropped upgrades/changes and content every month so far.

Mackdose.6504:

Red Falcon.8257:

Uncle Salty.6342:

Some people have trouble fulfilling one role and you’re asking for three!

Those people can go play all those bazillions of MMOs with pidgeon-holing brain-dead easymode mechanics.
Why change the only one that does not have that limit?

Don’t call trinity PvE easymode, you’re gonna end up with a bunch of people telling you about how gear checks and artificial difficulty introduced by trying to have 25 people follow a script all at once is hard.

Well, i actually found Trinity to be harder, to follow a fixed skill rotation, to follow the same formula again and again, to find a proper healer, to find a proper tank, to join a proper guild, all these are extremely hard to me. My memories are bad so i rather dodge or block at the right moment, use heal or interrupt as i see fit rather than use the same skill rotation again and again, just can’t memorize what to do next. And you know what, telling 25 random people to follow a fixed script by in game message is hard, really hard…. other than all these, yes, trinity combat is extremely easy.

Mackdose.6504:

Don’t call trinity PvE easymode, you’re gonna end up with a bunch of people telling you about how gear checks and artificial difficulty introduced by trying to have 25 people follow a script all at once is hard.

Haha.
Well I just don’t understand why those people come here and expect a trinity.
It’s like stepping into an Italian restaurant and expect McDonald’s food on the menu.

Not all MMOs must offer the same obsolete mechanics, if you want them guys then you just have to pick one of the thousands wow clones out there.

Oh yeah, pvp here pretty well balanced, especially for a launch title. As far as being able to wear pve gear in spvp, not really an issue for me. At least they gave me something to work for in pvp, something I’m content with. I used pve gear in GW1 and yet, I still went ahead and unlocked many of the pvp skins, all of the skills, all of the insigs and runes, all of the weapon upgrades. Sooooooooo, not really an issue for me to try and fill every open bank slot with a piece of gear.

I’m actually more worried about what I’m facing in a match than what I’m wearing.

What I do want though is more game types…………larger maps even, more objectives.
And bring on GvG.

Mackdose.6504:

Red Falcon.8257:

Uncle Salty.6342:

Some people have trouble fulfilling one role and you’re asking for three!

Those people can go play all those bazillions of MMOs with pidgeon-holing brain-dead easymode mechanics.
Why change the only one that does not have that limit?

Don’t call trinity PvE easymode, you’re gonna end up with a bunch of people telling you about how gear checks and artificial difficulty introduced by trying to have 25 people follow a script all at once is hard.

Or they might point out that a modern national army never goes into battle without a battle plan. On top of that, gasp, they all are composed of units that fulfill well-defined unique roles on the battlefield. Does that make modern warfare braindead or easymode? Sometimes it’s helpful to take a step up and and a step back and think about the issue at hand. The trinity doesn’t make anything necessarily easier. Brain surgery is still brain surgery even though it’s made up of a team of highly skilled people filling highly specific roles in a highly scripted environment. Did you know that even the surgical instruments on the trays are scripted? The surgeon knows exactly what he will find in the operating theater before he or she walks in.

Seriously, many of you are taking shots at the Trinity because it follows advanced human group behavior. I want to make it clear that I’m not supporting the trinity per se (aggro management here); but, I do support advanced group behavior over primitive group behavior. Why? For the same reason humans do IRL. It is more efficient. It leads to successful outcomes more often. It provides meaningful roles where meaningfulness and contribution are both felt and obvious (again, it’s a human thing).

lothefallen.7081:

What provoked this was the harsh realization that open world content seems to just deteriorate into people hitting a pinata for rewards and running away like selfish little animals.

That was beautiful. Hit the nail right on the head! Cracked me up also. Just great, and so true.

The only way to solve this one, is to implement a need for communication and co-operation, so that afterwards people feel like sticking around to at least say “thanks” and appreciate the moment of glorious victory—It is not possible to appreciate such a glorious moment, if it doesn’t exist.

A glimpse of these glorious moments can sometimes be experienced at the end of a dungeon or fractal. Anet needs to put a bit of that into the PvE event system.

Ya, I had the same reaction to the pinata discription, lmao but also realised how right on the description is. Just did Boar, Great Oak, and Wasp Queen. I jumped into the middle of the the fight and couldn’t even see what the hell was going on with my character because of all the people fighting (like a blindfold) just keep swinging and hitting the keys only to move if my health needed it.

Raine.1394:

On top of that, gasp, they all are composed of units that fulfill well-defined unique roles

That’s actually a very terrible and completely wrong example.
I have been in the army 1 year, enough to know soldiers need to be able to fulfill many roles.
All units need to know basic healing/resurrection methods, know how to shoot and kill enemies, know maneuvers to avoid fire and covering, and using methods to control the enemy such as smoke/flash nades.
That’s the modern ways of tanking, control, healing and DPS, and all units need to do all 4 to survive.

As a Medic I’ve still got gun / tactical training regardless if I can be the “healer”.
Because knowing one role alone simply isn’t enough in warfare, nor in life or workplaces.

- No direct trade- I kind of agree, but it would be kinda like scamming noobs out of their money because they don’t know what things are worth

- Multi-Guild- Agree, big problem, people don’t leave the guild they just never represent it, Anet is trying to figure out how to make them useful like to have guild missions, will this work? Maybe

- No roles-Kind of agree, no healer, just tank, dps, and superior dps

- Poorly designed combat, skills, traits, combo fields, down state (shallow)- Agree, lots of skills even compared to different professions seem the same (weapon skill 2 pops out in my mind)

- Encounters are braindead- Open world? Agree, Zerg WvW? Agree, people who don’t know how to do anything will fail horribly when trying to run, dodge red circles, do anything that requires some brainz (some dungeons, skipping mobs, fractals, spvp (I guess))

- Events are zergfests that require no mechanical strategy or player skill- Most, grenth and balth stand out as some skillful open world events..even then you can be stupid and held up by other people who actually understand the mechanics of the game

- Players have no reason to actually group in the open world because of class structure.- Agree, never group with people in open world, and people who do (PHAT LEWTZ grouping doesn’t count because you aren’t socializing or playing as a team)

- No LFG tool- Agree, just look at gw2lfg.com….

- Can’t bring PvE gear into sPvP- Disagree, I play mesmer, engi, necro in sPvP and only 1 is lvl 80. (even ground stats is nice when you want to experiment with classes you don’t know and don’t feel like spending 30-50g to get them the best armor)

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Red Falcon.8257:

Uncle Salty.6342:

Some people have trouble fulfilling one role and you’re asking for three!

Those people can go play all those bazillions of MMOs with pidgeon-holing brain-dead easymode mechanics.
Why change the only one that does not have that limit?

Don’t call trinity PvE easymode, you’re gonna end up with a bunch of people telling you about how gear checks and artificial difficulty introduced by trying to have 25 people follow a script all at once is hard.

Or they might point out that a modern national army never goes into battle without a battle plan. On top of that, gasp, they all are composed of units that fulfill well-defined unique roles on the battlefield. Does that make modern warfare braindead or easymode? Sometimes it’s helpful to take a step up and and a step back and think about the issue at hand. The trinity doesn’t make anything necessarily easier. Brain surgery is still brain surgery even though it’s made up of a team of highly skilled people filling highly specific roles in a highly scripted environment. Did you know that even the surgical instruments on the trays are scripted? The surgeon knows exactly what he will find in the operating theater before he or she walks in.

Seriously, many of you are taking shots at the Trinity because it follows advanced human group behavior. I want to make it clear that I’m not supporting the trinity per se (aggro management here); but, I do support advanced group behavior over primitive group behavior. Why? For the same reason humans do IRL. It is more efficient. It leads to successful outcomes more often. It provides meaningful roles where meaningfulness and contribution are both felt and obvious (again, it’s a human thing).

I’m not sure that this is a response to me.

I’d say GW2 combat is actually very similar to squad-based combat.

Different builds do indeed fulfill unique and well defined roles:

1. Glass Cannon DPS – Primary damage dealer
2. Condition DPS – Anti-Armor damage dealer
3. Condition Removal Support – Keeps party mobile, protects against DoTs
4. Boon Removal – Keeps enemies from stacking might
5. Offensive Boon Support – Buffs whole party, increasing group effectiveness
6. Defensive Boon Support – Primary damage mitigation (regen, vigor, protection)
7. Offensive Control – Interrupter, defiant management, enemy position management
8. Defensive Control – Secondary damage mitigation (blind, chill, immobilize, cripple)

Combat is a bit deeper than this thread lets on.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Red Falcon.8257:

Uncle Salty.6342:

Some people have trouble fulfilling one role and you’re asking for three!

Those people can go play all those bazillions of MMOs with pidgeon-holing brain-dead easymode mechanics.
Why change the only one that does not have that limit?

Don’t call trinity PvE easymode, you’re gonna end up with a bunch of people telling you about how gear checks and artificial difficulty introduced by trying to have 25 people follow a script all at once is hard.

Or they might point out that a modern national army never goes into battle without a battle plan. On top of that, gasp, they all are composed of units that fulfill well-defined unique roles on the battlefield. Does that make modern warfare braindead or easymode? Sometimes it’s helpful to take a step up and and a step back and think about the issue at hand. The trinity doesn’t make anything necessarily easier. Brain surgery is still brain surgery even though it’s made up of a team of highly skilled people filling highly specific roles in a highly scripted environment. Did you know that even the surgical instruments on the trays are scripted? The surgeon knows exactly what he will find in the operating theater before he or she walks in.

Seriously, many of you are taking shots at the Trinity because it follows advanced human group behavior. I want to make it clear that I’m not supporting the trinity per se (aggro management here); but, I do support advanced group behavior over primitive group behavior. Why? For the same reason humans do IRL. It is more efficient. It leads to successful outcomes more often. It provides meaningful roles where meaningfulness and contribution are both felt and obvious (again, it’s a human thing).

I’m not sure that this is a response to me.

I’d say GW2 combat is actually very similar to squad-based combat.

Different builds do indeed fulfill unique and well defined roles:

1. Glass Cannon DPS – Primary damage dealer
2. Condition DPS – Anti-Armor damage dealer
3. Condition Removal Support – Keeps party mobile, protects against DoTs
4. Boon Removal – Keeps enemies from stacking might
5. Offensive Boon Support – Buffs whole party, increasing group effectiveness
6. Defensive Boon Support – Primary damage mitigation (regen, vigor, protection)
7. Offensive Control – Interrupter, defiant management, enemy position management
8. Defensive Control – Secondary damage mitigation (blind, chill, immobilize, cripple)

Combat is a bit deeper than this thread lets on.

Finally someone able to look at GW2 combat system similar to me….

Although i am not a real soldier myself but i am actually look at GW2 combat role the same way and already made the same comment couple months ago… GW2 combat mechanic is deeper and wider, but the current PvE encounter is not using the full potential of this combat system yet(probably taking care of the casual players). What i see with this combat system, players with high communication and trainning can perform extreme powerful and high end tactics…

This is actually what i am looking for on the market out all MMO, and GW2 is the only game able to provide such indepth and wide role building combat system but in my opinion there are still a lot of space to improve.

Arenanet can make the open world difficult. What we don’t know is if they can’t or don’t want to.

Maybe they want us all to hop around the world like Charlie at the Chocolate Factory.

I agree that the lack of a proper LFG tool is bad (Devs also said that they are working on one, so that issue will get solved). I disagree with everything else listed. The absence of direct trade might be seen as an oversight, but at least people can’t run to me and ninja-open trade windows anymore, unlike in GW1.

That they didn’t bring the silly trinity to GW2 is actually one of its best features, in my opinion. But I know, tastes are different.

Mackdose.6504:

Different builds do indeed fulfill unique and well defined roles:

1. Glass Cannon DPS – Primary damage dealer
2. Condition DPS – Anti-Armor damage dealer
3. Condition Removal Support – Keeps party mobile, protects against DoTs
4. Boon Removal – Keeps enemies from stacking might
5. Offensive Boon Support – Buffs whole party, increasing group effectiveness
6. Defensive Boon Support – Primary damage mitigation (regen, vigor, protection)
7. Offensive Control – Interrupter, defiant management, enemy position management
8. Defensive Control – Secondary damage mitigation (blind, chill, immobilize, cripple)

Combat is a bit deeper than this thread lets on.

And now there is 8 per group? ^^

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Nightarch.2943:

@lothefallen.7081,1+ This is a really great post and it sums up everything about how I feel about the game right now, well done. It’s a shame all the hype-knights are completely living in denial about how shallow the game really is right now.

Or… maybe people actually simply disagree with you and think the game’s still fun. Just because someone does not share your opinion, does not mean they are “in denial”, nor does it make their opinion less valid than yours.

Or white canes and guide dogs? They sure have something!

I like to think of GW2 as the Nintendo Wii of the MMO world. While other MMOs have tried to grab the hardcore players with promises of end-game content what do just involve a grind (a grind im happy to do btw) GW2 has said look. We dont want to offer the same as what other games are offering. We want to create a pick-up-and-play style MMO that will allow you to play other games and even other MMOs in addition to GW2. We just want you to have fun, spend a little in the gem store to support the game going forward and buy the expansions.

The Wii outsold both the PS3 and the 360 because it didnt try to directly compete. It was cheaper and more accessible to different types of people. Hell even the elderly were using the Wii! GW2 is the Wii of the MMO world and, if figures are to be believed, is doing rather well. Its not trying to be a WoW killer, its offering something different. Something more casual.

I agree that GW2 does need some improvements as its far from a perfect game in terms of bugs and gameplay. But saying that a whole game is flawed without taking into account that this isnt a generic MMO is an argument that is, itself, flawed.

Mackdose.6504:

Different builds do indeed fulfill unique and well defined roles:

1. Glass Cannon DPS – Primary damage dealer
2. Condition DPS – Anti-Armor damage dealer
3. Condition Removal Support – Keeps party mobile, protects against DoTs
4. Boon Removal – Keeps enemies from stacking might
5. Offensive Boon Support – Buffs whole party, increasing group effectiveness
6. Defensive Boon Support – Primary damage mitigation (regen, vigor, protection)
7. Offensive Control – Interrupter, defiant management, enemy position management
8. Defensive Control – Secondary damage mitigation (blind, chill, immobilize, cripple)

Combat is a bit deeper than this thread lets on.

This list sounds nice but like GW2 that role division only goes skin deep.

There are 2 roles in GW2. DPS and Support. Your list are all subdivisions of these two roles. These roles are also interchangeable and can be done by anyone to some degree, making classes mostly fluff rather than having real functional differences.

Beyond that, the existence of these roles doesn’t mean anything if you don’t actually need them.

I submit to you that almost anything in this game can be beaten without looking at these roles. Whereas in real combat there are functional differences and you need to be trained for specific roles, GW2 completely ignores that for the benefit of ease of group making.

Now, you may not have a problem with that and that’s fine. GW2 is made for those people. But if you want a deeper combat system and combat roles with real definition then GW2 is simply not the game for you.

Again the roles you describe are not roles like tank, healer, support and dps. They are simply focuses that almost every class can do in some shape or another, but it’s still either support or dps. Still your own choice whether you like that or not and I would say to the OP that I feel the same way about the game, sadly, but I stopped playing because this game is not for me, even though I played GW1 to bits. I just come here from time to time to see if anything changed that might appeal to me. So far it hasn’t. Oh well, I have another game I like and that works for me.

it is a good thing they removed the trinity concept. And I am opposing all advocates of the trinity in their claim this made the game less “tactical”. In fact, the chaos without set aggro management would call for better strategy and skill in players, but here is where GW2´s flaw is.

The whole game philosophy is based on premise that you cannot fail. That may be a move towards the casual crowd or just bad design, I don´t know. Noone is required to really act smart and work together well – there are no “wipes”, the only area that is somewhat difficult are fractals apparently. Even with the recent WP changes, the game is still geared towards easy gratification, losing is a no-go in pve for the most part.

Act stupid in boss encounters, who cares? just respawn. The dynamic combat and abolition of a trinity system was a move in the right direction, the lacking need of smart cooperation and deeper strategies make it an utter fail though in my opinion.