Guild Wars 2

This is a general question. This isn’t towards WvW balance, this isn’t towards PvP balance and this isn’t towards PvE balance.

Why is the Arena net balance team trying to push condition meta and builds so much?

This part is mainly for WvW and PvP some of it might also effect PvE

Condition builds are boring to play, requires no skills, they are brain dead, half of the players have quit the game(from WvW and PvP), other half hates it and just hopes one day conditions will get nerfed because all condition meta doing is draining these players who are still left to quit the game. Condition meta is forcing players to quit the game. Everyday players are quiting literally because of this brain dead play style.

Now the dps on movement food gets nerfed because it’s too strong? Have you seen some of the condition damage food and utilities balance team?

Honestly if you keep for condition meta and builds this game will die faster than its suppose to. More than half the community doesn’t want to deal with conditions and no this isn’t my personal statement this is the statement of 80% of players who have quit the game and other half who is about to.

Also if you want to maintain players and want them to have fun nerf condition damage and stacking and please nerf the op passive healing in. Balance two of these things GAME WILL BE FUN AND PLAYERS WILL ENJOY THE GAME AND OLD PLAYERS MIGHT JUST RETURN.

Not being a theory crafter, and being someone that kind of enjoys condi builds without min-maxing them, I’ll answer from my limited perspective.

Before condi builds were made viable, the only build players conceded to be worthwhile was berserker. Talk about boring, you either had to stat up as a glass cannon or take forever to kill things. Now there are two main prongs of building rather than one, and ANet is pushing the second one to keep people from going back to “berserker or gtfo.”

Where is this place one can speak to all the players that have supposedly quit the game? And where is the place one can speak to the other half who are about to? Though, that seems to add up to 130%. o.0

I remember the ‘good old days’ when the laments were about the Berserker-only builds. Ahh, good times.

game is clearly balanced off PvE. PvE used to be all zerker. whatever changes are made to make pve better are not necessarily good for wvw and pvp and often affect it negatively. unfortunately anet doesnt seem to care enough about wvw to think about those effects, i dont pvp much but it seems they’ve abandoned that too.

Here is a dose of reality for people; balance is not something achievable. That’s a fact, especially as long as it’s subjectively measured by players with forum access. That’s not just with GW2, it’s any game where there is class or gear variations.

Now, once you let that sink in, realize why every single one of these OMG NO BALANCE threads have little impact. I don’t even get the problem … condition meta is making people quit? If that’s true, those players are fickle to begin with; the littlest change make them drift away.

If you don’t like condition meta, then leave. If you really want to have the biggest impact to changes you can’t live with, that is your biggest way to influence the direction of the game.

It sure does seem that condi is being rammed down our throats build wise at the expense of power. For true build diversity both power and condi should be viable.
If the wiggle is the true problem here for the nerf to power food why isn’t there another food introduced to replace the movement food?? Anet seems to think that higher dps is an issue obviously.
It seems that raids run supreme in handing out nerfs for all modes…rip dps builds in wvw where true movement is used rather than the wiggle. And given the skill lag in wvw wouldn’t Anet want to reduce the load on the server by reducing condi calculations rather than dps??

It just doesn’t make sense.

I understand wanting to make conditions “viable” but that shouldn’t make them stronger than power builds. To achieve the damage they did on power builds they had to be “glass cannons” but what do condition builds “sacrifice” for their damage? Jack squat. They get their cake and eat it while standing right on top of your glass cannon build because they can outsustain and outdamage you. You face tank anything that hits you since the mobs in PvE are all extremely weak anyways so it didn’t matter if your power and have no defense. Or if it happens to be that one mob in 10 that hits for alil all you have to do is side step and the attack is gone for the next 15 seconds before you have to side step again. Balancing around PvE is stupid you just give the players damage and survivability and they are happy. They really should be focused around things that actually need balanced. PvP got a decent amount of “fixes” (didn’t bother reading them since I’m a WvW’er) and it seems like they are so very very slowly considering to do seperate balances for WvW ( hurry it up and nerf condi for WvW alone).

Interesting gameplay

Look at the bright side:

Bug Fixes
Audio has been added to the Red Envelope Mail Carrier.

Weasels God.8296:

I understand wanting to make conditions “viable” but that shouldn’t make them stronger than power builds.

I don’t see anything in your post that makes me think that should be true. A condition build should be stronger than power builds? I can think of many reasons why they should, primarily because they deal their damage over time and allow more options for the player to reaction and make decisions.

@obtena Here you go. Didn’t feel the need to explain myself but apparently people are blind to obvious facts. Yes this is set at “perfect” conditions as its a benchmark but you can’t get remotely close with a power build. Also by “stronger” I’m meaning in single tick applications. Damage over time is one thing. When you can literally spike harder than a power build your doing balancing wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow-iSt27j7U&feature=youtu.be

I do understand that is slightly using the bug that came out with epi but here is another more reasonable video. Not saying he is a bad player but just that the amount of condi damage he can put out by himself is sickening. (he is also running a hybrid build but you can see just by looking at the bleeding stacks he puts out)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP8kPL9d-Ug

Its simply a lazy change, they needed to keep the buff but move the proc to something else apart from movement. But having said that who the hell cares about having to wiggle? Why even do anet care?

The problem is, Arena Net is pushing condition damage by nerfing power damage or builds. My main is a necromancer I can tell you one thing that condition necromancer is far more superior and broken than power necro.

Here are the reason why,

1. Condition builds do not need other stat than but just condition damage to do a lot of damage.

2. Since all of your main dps coming out of straight up condition damage stat now where do you put rest of the stats well vitality and toughness aka full dire and trailblazer.

3. Then deathly chill gets buff. Chill inflicts 3 stacks of bleeding. This buff understandable for PvE but for WvW.. are you for real? if a zerg has 6 necros which is normal each necro stacks 20 stack of bleeding times that by 6 now you have ! stacks of bleeding… lol gg

4. Corruptions. Yes necros can also corrupt your boon turning them into conditions. Yay more conditions.

Doing all of that what do necromancer sacrifice? 0. Nothing at all.

Its not just the necro! Its the every single condition build out there. Look at condition Mesmer it can stack 30 stacks of confusion and bleeding.

Todays patch also buffed condition revenants.. lol more condition.

Now lets talk power necromancer

1. To get strong DPS you would probably run stats like berserker, valkyrie, marauder and maybe some cavaliers or knghts in there to get few toughness.

2. To get damage from your power build you need to put stats into power but you still dont know get as much damage as condition damage builds. To get the amount of damage condition builds on your power build you also need to put stats in to Precision and Ferocity sacrificing toughness and vitality aka glass canon.

3. Now with all the passive healing and passive damage reduction out there a lot of power damage coming from necro well bomb gets mitigated while condition damage doesn’t care about damage reduction nor the passive healing it just does damage without sacrificing anything.

Now on top of that Arena Net nerfs the damage movement food and utilities since they are “too strong”. Arena Net please.

I am all for diversity with builds condition or power but could you at least make it more balanced not just broken kitten?

They are pushing passives like this condition passive crap. Everything need to be passive I guess. 0 skill. No wonder pvp died, wvw is almost dead, pve borring grindfest.

Weasels God.8296:

@obtena Here you go. Didn’t feel the need to explain myself but apparently people are blind to obvious facts. Yes this is set at “perfect” conditions as its a benchmark but you can’t get remotely close with a power build. Also by “stronger” I’m meaning in single tick applications. Damage over time is one thing. When you can literally spike harder than a power build your doing balancing wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow-iSt27j7U&feature=youtu.be

I don’t get the problem … Why should I not be able to spike harder with condition than power builds? Just because? I see no facts here … other than your opinion it shouldn’t happen. Posting a video of a necro fighting a golem proves nothing related to why condi builds shouldn’t be better than power ones. You might as well have posted a video of cats. It would have been as meaningful.

Ragnarox.9601:

They are pushing passives like this condition passive crap. Everything need to be passive I guess. 0 skill. No wonder pvp died, wvw is almost dead, pve borring grindfest.

They just nerfed Passives in Pvp so there’s that…..

look at the bright side, they just fixed a whole lot of stuff on the legendary armor.

I see Obtena that you are a complete PvE hero and don’t know anything about PvP or WvW. Lets take a condi build and pit it against a power build yes? They should both have equal chance in a fight yes? No? So basically what your saying is that the ONLY route is condi build? A condi build SHOULD have more damage OVER TIME if you paid half a wits attention I am referring to a single tick of condi damage you can view it over yourself but one single tick of burning is doing 18k damage. Name one power build that can do 18k power damage per second and maintain that. None right? Because it is not properly balanced. If the build was meant to survive and keep continual damage it should not spike harder than a build meant specifically to do an instant spike with no continual damage.

Anet isn’t forcing any meta on us, players force meta on themselves. All of my characters have anti-meta stats and self-made builds, I can finish any content just fine.

Obtena.7952:

Weasels God.8296:

@obtena Here you go. Didn’t feel the need to explain myself but apparently people are blind to obvious facts. Yes this is set at “perfect” conditions as its a benchmark but you can’t get remotely close with a power build. Also by “stronger” I’m meaning in single tick applications. Damage over time is one thing. When you can literally spike harder than a power build your doing balancing wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow-iSt27j7U&feature=youtu.be

I don’t get the problem … Why should I not be able to spike harder with condition than power builds? Just because? I see no facts here … other than your opinion it shouldn’t happen. Posting a video of a necro fighting a golem proves nothing related to why condi builds shouldn’t be better than power ones. You might as well have posted a video of cats. It would have been as meaningful.

The problem is that you literally sacrifice nothing while doing all of that damage with condition build and power builds are keep on getting nerf and now the food / utilities as well. Another problem just the amount of cleanses you have to run now days because all everyone plays is condition builds so 80% of build consist of condi cleansing. Condition stacking is also a issue there needs to be a limit on how many conditions can be stacked.

That makes no sense … your sacrifice to get that damage is requiring to use a very specific build to deliver it, just like power or anything else. Nothing you say indicates there is a problem here. I don’t see a problem with the game moving to a condition meta, if that’s even the case.

I mean, you can invent problems all you like. Condition stacking, etc … again, these things have counterplay just like power builds … significantly more counterplay than any power builds do in fact.

The only thing I see here is someone that doesn’t want to add to their skills of how to deal with condition damage.

I mean, we had power meta forced on us for YEARS, but through some personal philosophy, that’s OK to you. I’m listening to you, I just think you’re trying to make some factual arguments from emotional and personal preferences.

A build is not a sacrifice. What stats are you giving up on? The condi builds are taking HIGHLY SURVIVABLE and EASY TO APPLY with HIGH DAMAGE traits. But that is irrelevant. You have Toughness you have Vitality without giving up your Condition damage at all. A power build has to sacrifice Toughness and Vitality to get this damage. What part are you not understanding? Okay so further explaination, and this is ignoring the fact that the stats are already lopsided, a power build is forced to take condi clear traits and condi clear skills in order to cope with condi builds. Most of the “condition” trait lines are defensive in nature so they are picking up those defensive traits and just focusing on pouring out damage. This is because the trait lines were built around damage over time meaning lower spikes but continual damage over time but survivability built in to get that damage off. Spike btw in case you aren’t aware means instantaneous damage since you seem to be oblivious to this.

I won’t argue your hypothetical scenarios here. Go ahead and PVP on paper all you like. If you do not want to understand the risk you actually face and understand how to deal with them in PVP, then you have greater problems than Necro spike condi damage.

You are arguing my hypothetical scenarios since you don’t believe that condi is a problem in WvW and PvP. I DO fight them and I DO understand how to fight them. The problem is that they are overpowered as a base and an unskilled player can fight on par with a power player that knows what they are actually doing because it is UNBALANCED. That is what this thread is about do you not understand that? Don’t post here if you don’t understand more than a single aspect of the game. I understand as a power based player that I am at a disadvantage. I would like simply to be on same level as condi based players so that my skill is actually put to the challenge against theirs instead of “does my build have enough condi clears to live long enough to get a spike strong enough to get threw their toughness and vitality with their survivability traits while they passively throw condi at me without trying”.

I like to play Condi and Power builds. But I also think Condi is OP, because I have fun with both builds. I don’t want to make it so that one build is OP but that both have a reason to exist in all game aspects. I like to play a power Thief or Ele but Necro I like to play Condi. But I don’t want to be forced to play my Ele and Thief as Condi to be allowed in Raids or so or to change my Necro to power. I think there would have been better ways to create some sort of balance between this builds.

Well said blackdragon, I agree completely.

BlackDragon.2084:

I like to play Condi and Power builds. But I also think Condi is OP, because I have fun with both builds. I don’t want to make it so that one build is OP but that both have a reason to exist in all game aspects. I like to play a power Thief or Ele but Necro I like to play Condi. But I don’t want to be forced to play my Ele and Thief as Condi to be allowed in Raids or so or to change my Necro to power. I think there would have been better ways to create some sort of balance between this builds.

Good sentiment but unfortunately, the game has never worked that way ever. There is clearly not objective at Anet to make equivalently performing builds. Therefore, it makes no sense to lament something that never was.

CrimeMaker.8612:

This is a general question. This isn’t towards WvW balance, this isn’t towards PvP balance and this isn’t towards PvE balance.

Why is the Arena net balance team trying to push condition meta and builds so much?

This part is mainly for WvW and PvP some of it might also effect PvE

Condition builds are boring to play, requires no skills, they are brain dead, half of the players have quit the game(from WvW and PvP), other half hates it and just hopes one day conditions will get nerfed because all condition meta doing is draining these players who are still left to quit the game. Condition meta is forcing players to quit the game. Everyday players are quiting literally because of this brain dead play style.

Now the dps on movement food gets nerfed because it’s too strong? Have you seen some of the condition damage food and utilities balance team?

Honestly if you keep for condition meta and builds this game will die faster than its suppose to. More than half the community doesn’t want to deal with conditions and no this isn’t my personal statement this is the statement of 80% of players who have quit the game and other half who is about to.

Also if you want to maintain players and want them to have fun nerf condition damage and stacking and please nerf the op passive healing in. Balance two of these things GAME WILL BE FUN AND PLAYERS WILL ENJOY THE GAME AND OLD PLAYERS MIGHT JUST RETURN.

For starters there are quite a few flawed assumptions and statements here. There is no “condi meta” in PvE, for open world/fractals/dungeons you can run with basically w/e. If youre talking raids, the highest dps builds atm, on large hitboxes are 3 Power Ele Builds, followed my condi Engi, on small hitboxes, condi engi has does the highest dps but has one of the harder rotations to pull off so the “least braindead”. But tbh what is the difference between doing condi damage and power damage in raids, doesn’t really matter.

Now to WvW. Epidemic arguably the reason for the so called “condi meta” got a big nerf. That Condi classes would be more braindead is simply not true, there are tons of braindead power builds and tons of braindead condi builds. I mean just off the top of my head any daredevil builds, the vast majority of warrior builds, dragonhunter as the broken and brainless power builds. There is however braindead condi builds aswell, condi chrono, condi PU mes, condi D/D daredevil. Overall there is a lot of braindead builds, this is not a concept limited to power or condi.

How is playing condi necro for example any more braindead than playing longbow dragonhunter (in smallscale) that is.

Or if you prefer largescale, how is condi necro (the only actual condi build in WvW zergs iirc, I try to avoid it) any more braindead than staff 1 spam mercy rune guardian?

Another thing to keep in mind when discussing this is to please refrain from emotional hyperbole and made up statistics, it really drags down the level of the discussion. I know that you have no stats on how many people are quitting due to this “condi meta” you’re describing.

And that is exactly the problem Obtena said directly from yourself. The builds need to perform equally. Condi should mean damage over time with survivability traits while power builds should be high damage just all at once. The condi OVER TIME should be similar to the power builds spike. Currently the condi builds can achieve the same damage instantaneously plus continual damage. When condi damage was increased they did it by too much. I don’t neccesarily want it turned back to the previous amount where it isn’t viable but at least counterable in a large group setting. In small group it is a little easier to just time your clears or resistance but in large groups it is applied so rapidly there is no way to clear it and resistance is just stripped the moment they stack enough condi’s on you. There is so many boonstrips in the game.

No, the build doesn’t need to perform equally. There is nothing in this game that makes me think Anet is trying to achieve anything like that for any class and no, whatever I said doesn’t indicate I think there is a problem with that.

Equal performance builds are an expectation YOU make in your head to justify your dislike for the changes; there has NEVER been equal performance builds for a given class or across classes in this game, if only by coincidence. The only problem here is you think your expectations should be THE expectations.

What I am certain of is that Anet is willing to make adjustments to get the game they want. If they think the game should be more condi meta, that’s what you are going to get. if they think it sways too far that way, I’m confident they will dial it back. We have almost 5 years of watching their behaviour demonstrating that willingness. The only issue is if players are patient enough to see what they do … and most people can be pretty fickle.

Obtena.7952:

No, the build doesn’t need to perform equally. There is nothing in this game that makes me think Anet is trying to achieve anything like that for any class. That’s an expectation YOU make in your head to justify your dislike for the changes. The only problem here is you think your expectations should be THE expectations.

It’s not just his expectations. It’s every WvW players, every spvp players, every player who played for Esport team. The game does not need to be equally balanced when it comes to PvE, I agree with that. When you come into WvW and you have this PvE balance affecting WvW then things do turn out to be unbalanced every single time and it was same for spvp until they started dping skill split balance for spvp.

I honestly don’t get your point. I can honestly show you a raw WvW footage and see for yourself how crazy condition stacking and damage is. Conditions dont need to be toned down completely it needs to be balanced. If you don’t run proper comp or massive cleanses you cannot do anything. This shouldn’t be the case. Then like what weasel said condition damage is raw damage + damage over time not only that most condition builds are super defensive from the start. When it comes to power builds you are a glass canon and having to run massive cleanses because condition spam is too rediculous

Here is some reality for you … player expectations are not very relevant as far as minor changes like this go. How new are you to MMO’s anyways? I have yet to play an MMO where the Devs generally use player feedback to adjust this level of detail in the game.

You can show me all the videos you want; if that’s the direction Anet wants this game to go, you better evaluate if this game is still worth playing. I mean, are you trying to tell use that Anet is simply ignorant of how their game works and they made a mistake by favouring condi in this balance patch? That would be funny on so many levels.

I mean, they are no more forcing condi meta in this game now than they were forcing power meta in this game for the first 3 years. The whole idea that Anet shouldn’t direct the game in a certain direction at their discretion is ridiculous!

Never did i specify that they were ever equal in the past. I would just LIKE them to be. Yes it is my opinion that both should be equally viable and yes it is my dislike for the change. Not once have I stated otherwise. The thing I am arguing with you is that they are unbalanced (in certain game modes) and you just didn’t want to admit it. I would like the game to be in a balance where both build sets are viable. As I stated in the last post, I think they buffed it too much that is not to say that they didn’t need to buff condi. I am also completely fine with having balancing seperate between PvE and WvW, and there already is for PvP. The game mode I enjoy has issues with conditions. That is not to say I want to nerf them for PvE’rs. There are multiple game modes and I personally would like the one I enjoy to be looked at. There is always a constant need for balancing and that is what creates new META’s. Where is the fun in staying in a stagnate game that doesn’t evolve further because one thing in particular just rules over it. I also don’t like with the insane amount of damage DH longbow does and that is a power build though it can certainly melt in an instant if played poorly so I am okay with that.

What you like is not relevant to this discussion, so why even bring it up as a point to support your side?

I admit that there is unbalance. I just don’t see a problem with that unbalance because we have never had it and we won’t get it. No game with this level of skills and class variation and dependence on player can be balanced so I think there isn’t any value in doing so.

I mean, don’t complain about a change in direction, then ask where the fun is in a game that is stagnate and doesn’t evolve further … that’s silly. Clearly, there is a contradiction there. If you don’t see that these changes, good or bad, are Anet’s attempt to continue making the game not stagnate, evolve and improve, then I don’t feel you are being honest here.

You were the one that brought “what I like” into it not me. Stop trying to twist words.

The problem is that the change that put it like this was AWHILE back. It has stagnated since then. It was not a change that “just happened”. I would like the game to continue evolving. The change I am referring to is the condition damage change which was right around when HoT dropped. Yes it took awhile for the meta to shift because it still has to work its way in. HoT came in 2015? It is now 2017. We have had the condi change for well over a year and what 8 months? It first started off from pirate shipping since the stability change made it too hard to push on a group and guess what they did? They balanced that. The meta was already in force though and continued on because they found that the conditions were quite strong and even with stability it was still hard to push threw all the conditions. I don’t care if you call it “my opinion” but I think it is about time for another meta shift. Balance will never be perfect but the switch back and forth and experimenting with new builds is a thrill. I am looking forward to the next set of elite specs for this reason because it might offer something to change the meta. We have been stuck with it for awhile and it is frustrating.

Weasels God.8296:

You were the one that brought “what I like” into it not me. Stop trying to twist words.

The problem is that the change that put it like this was AWHILE back. It has stagnated since then. It was not a change that “just happened”. I would like the game to continue evolving. The change I am referring to is the condition damage change which was right around when HoT dropped. Yes it took awhile for the meta to shift because it still has to work its way in. HoT came in 2015? It is now 2017. We have had the condi change for well over a year and what 8 months? It first started off from pirate shipping since the stability change made it too hard to push on a group and guess what they did? They balanced that. The meta was already in force though and continued on because they found that the conditions were quite strong and even with stability it was still hard to push threw all the conditions. I don’t care if you call it “my opinion” but I think it is about time for another meta shift. Balance will never be perfect but the switch back and forth and experimenting with new builds is a thrill. I am looking forward to the next set of elite specs for this reason because it might offer something to change the meta. We have been stuck with it for awhile and it is frustrating.

Well only been 2 years compared to then 3 years of berseker meta so we still got 1 year to go.

Linken.6345:

Weasels God.8296:

You were the one that brought “what I like” into it not me. Stop trying to twist words.

The problem is that the change that put it like this was AWHILE back. It has stagnated since then. It was not a change that “just happened”. I would like the game to continue evolving. The change I am referring to is the condition damage change which was right around when HoT dropped. Yes it took awhile for the meta to shift because it still has to work its way in. HoT came in 2015? It is now 2017. We have had the condi change for well over a year and what 8 months? It first started off from pirate shipping since the stability change made it too hard to push on a group and guess what they did? They balanced that. The meta was already in force though and continued on because they found that the conditions were quite strong and even with stability it was still hard to push threw all the conditions. I don’t care if you call it “my opinion” but I think it is about time for another meta shift. Balance will never be perfect but the switch back and forth and experimenting with new builds is a thrill. I am looking forward to the next set of elite specs for this reason because it might offer something to change the meta. We have been stuck with it for awhile and it is frustrating.

Well only been 2 years compared to then 3 years of berseker meta so we still got 1 year to go.

Lol, I hope not. If it is the case then I hope there is at least a variation between. Berserker meta went threw a few different phases during those 3 years.

Obtena.7952:

BlackDragon.2084:

I like to play Condi and Power builds. But I also think Condi is OP, because I have fun with both builds. I don’t want to make it so that one build is OP but that both have a reason to exist in all game aspects. I like to play a power Thief or Ele but Necro I like to play Condi. But I don’t want to be forced to play my Ele and Thief as Condi to be allowed in Raids or so or to change my Necro to power. I think there would have been better ways to create some sort of balance between this builds.

Good sentiment but unfortunately, the game has never worked that way ever. There is clearly not objective at Anet to make equivalently performing builds. Therefore, it makes no sense to lament something that never was.

Let me get this straight you’re saying anet don’t want class balance. Well that would explain a few things if true but I highly doubt that it is true.

CrimeMaker.8612:

Why is the Arena net balance team trying to push condition meta and builds so much?

Condition builds are boring to play, requires no skills, they are brain dead, half of the players have quit the game(from WvW and PvP), other half hates it and just hopes one day conditions will get nerfed because all condition meta doing is draining these players who are still left to quit the game. Condition meta is forcing players to quit the game. Everyday players are quiting literally because of this brain dead play style.

Funny, i remember hearing exactly the same about power meta before.

Weasels God.8296:

I understand wanting to make conditions “viable” but that shouldn’t make them stronger than power builds. To achieve the damage they did on power builds they had to be “glass cannons” but what do condition builds “sacrifice” for their damage?

Vipers are as glass as Berserkers, if you haven’t noticed. And in the end you do need vipers for the damage to be comparable with zerker builds.

Weasels God.8296:

I do understand that is slightly using the bug that came out with epi but here is another more reasonable video. Not saying he is a bad player but just that the amount of condi damage he can put out by himself is sickening. (he is also running a hybrid build but you can see just by looking at the bleeding stacks he puts out)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP8kPL9d-Ug

“Another video from viper reaper roaming this past two days.”
Yeah, a hybrid build, all right…
(for your information, if you haven’t noticed, viper is full glass build).

Please, don’t use damage from full glass builds and try to claim those builds sacrifice nothing to get those numbers.

Also, please do not use the postpatch epi videos as an argument against anything. I agree, you could get some really sick damage (the highest i saw was around 130k DPS i think, but i heard some people went even higher), but that was just a result of a bug, and it got already fixed.

morrolan.9608:

Let me get this straight you’re saying anet don’t want class balance. Well that would explain a few things if true but I highly doubt that it is true.

Well, they did say several times that they prefer a form of “dynamic balance” that is a result of shifting the balance every now and them to make new builds rise to top, while nerfing former meta leaders.

I guess it’s easier to do than trying to aim at a true balance.

Donari.5237:

Not being a theory crafter, and being someone that kind of enjoys condi builds without min-maxing them, I’ll answer from my limited perspective.

Before condi builds were made viable, the only build players conceded to be worthwhile was berserker. Talk about boring, you either had to stat up as a glass cannon or take forever to kill things. Now there are two main prongs of building rather than one, and ANet is pushing the second one to keep people from going back to “berserker or gtfo.”

Um, actually…

There will always be a single optimal way to kill things. Whether it is condi or power is irrelevant – players at large will still go that single path. And it will still be full glass, regardless if it’s zerk or viper.

People get annoyed not because there is an alternative. The alternative already existed. If anything, it is the condi dps that needed to be toned down on certain overperforming build. Power builds in general are harder to play, in part because of the SWS mechanic, and were already losing in many scenarios.

And what did they do? Nerf SWS, keeping the silly mechanic, making it even harder for a power build to compete with a condi one. Sure, it’s no longer “zerk or gtfo”, it is now “viper or gtfo”. Much change, so wow.

Balancing around PvE is stupid you just give the players damage and survivability and they are happy. They really should be focused around things that actually need balanced

No. First off, it’s not for you to decide what’s important to focus on or not. Even though, it may seem currently so that Raid balance dictates the other game modes balance-wise, it would not be better to shift the focus to PvP changes which may or may not ruin the fun of PvE (and WvW) as a result of every ADHS player crying about being one-shot by OP profession x. Just because “everything works in PvE (outside of raids)” must not mean that this game mode should suffer from PvP changes (and vice versa!)
That’s why there are skill splits between PvE and PvP, and ideally – clearly, I have no idea how much of a programming hassle that would be in addition to the current skill splitting – condi nerfs should be applied to only the section that “requires” it.
The only victim is WvW as it’s a mishmash of two game modes, where it seems that the build options are both a curse and a blessing balance-wise.

Feanor.2358:

And what did they do? Nerf SWS, keeping the silly mechanic, making it even harder for a power build to compete with a condi one. Sure, it’s no longer “zerk or gtfo”, it is now “viper or gtfo”. Much change, so wow.

And at least Zerk was easy to acquire.

I feel like they try to ruin current elite classes , so with new expansion u have to go new ones. They will push condi meta now to heaven , ruin power , and then with new elites we will get like perma condi resistance but only if u buy expansion.

condi and power need just as much sacrifice to get their dps.
Expertise, condi dmg, precision
vs
Power, ferocity, precision.
Condi has more counterplay and doesnt immediately max out their dps at the start of a fight.
Can’t cleanse all the power dmg someone does, but you can cleanse condi dmg after already being hit by it. Furthermore no matter if you’re running power or condi, you still get to use weakness, vuln, cripple etc so there’s no argument there either.
too many condi complaint threads where noone realizes all this.

Kumouta.4985:

Can’t cleanse all the power dmg someone does, but you can cleanse condi dmg after already being hit by it.

And you can block power damage. And reduce it by toughness and armor which are far more common than resistance. If you’re going to cherry-pick, you’ll need to do it far more elaborate.

Not talking about WvW, but in PvE, the meta is still “zerk or marauder or gtfo”. I was yesterday in mount draconis, with air overload eles all over the place, zerk GS warriors and staff DD that were one-shot killing each and every trash mobs all around… I had the hardest time finishing my renown heart with my condi necro.

So I understand that nerf.

I’m not sure balance can be achieved, but I think a good aim is : each profession should have both condis and power builds.

Obtena.7952:

Now, once you let that sink in, realize why every single one of these OMG NO BALANCE threads have little impact. I don’t even get the problem … condition meta is making people quit? If that’s true, those players are fickle to begin with; the littlest change make them drift away.

Also if condition “meta” (the idea is ludicrous, there is no condition vs power meta, there’s a damage meta and it’s been there all along, who cares what icon is in front of the numbers over the enemies’ heads? O.o) is making people quit, why wasn’t “power meta” doing the same beforehand?

Feanor.2358:

Kumouta.4985:

Can’t cleanse all the power dmg someone does, but you can cleanse condi dmg after already being hit by it.

And you can block power damage.

You can block condi applications as well, you know. For the condi to be applied, the attack must hit first.

not cherry picking, just stating the obvious.
The only unbalanced thing here is the fact that your heals don’t get any better when using vitality, but at the same time vitality both grants more time to survive against condis and power while toughness only helps against power.