Guild Wars 2

quaniesan.8497:

Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back.

Careful. That’s both clever AND non-constructive. Under the New Order you’re a goner.

I read the announcement about getting serious about posts that are insulting to ArenaNet employees. Sounds good. But…

Are you going to be equally serious about personal attacks made to other members of the forum? Because I see those all the time.

If we are all equals and deserving of equal rights, the same requirements should be met by all humans using this forum, staff and user alike, and the same punishment should be given for any human being insulted.

I really hope it’s not a case of it being a bigger crime when it happens to those with moderation abilities.

Oh boy, if they consider calling on Anet as a person or a “cleverly” disguised person, the forums are going to be dead silent for a while once the ascended armor grind comes in.
At least then they’ll be able to add in a lot more traditional MMO grind after the initial banning/suspensions due to “passionate” responses without fearing for further negative responses.

Arrow.3856:

This kinda seems like a response to the recent incident that I will not mention in fear of being infracted. All I will say is it is sad that it has come to this. Where ArenaNet has to give themselves a boost in power in order to make sure they are not at fault. Anet vs The Players?

^I was trying to give my opinion on this but I’m sure somehow that can be worthy of an infraction.

I have to agree as well I can not put my finger on it perfectly, but as a player I am starting to feel ostracized. Today’s post just makes me feel worse as a paying customer and player.

Personally if I was the head of Arena.net and I read a post where someone said they felt lied to I been extremely upset. I would want to know what caused that customer to feel that way and going forward how could I fix it.

These new set of rules feel like a way for Arena.net as a company to justify upsetting the community as a whole.

I also feel its now Players vs Arena.net where we will be censored if the post hurts any one at arena.nets feelings. I feel like this is a slippery slope that could end up hurting the game in the long run.

CC Danicia.1394:

“Anet isn’t competent enough with this game”
“Anet lied to us”

Arenanet is not a person, therefore these cannot be personal attacks. Maybe you should rename this policy since it seems to apply to more than just personal attacks?

Woah, did half this thread get deleted?

Wow… Watching the moderation OF THIS THREAD, live as it happens has been quite illuminating.

I was going to say something pithy here, but now I’m afraid to. I guess the new rules are working as intended.

Lonesamurai.4852:

Woah, did half this thread get deleted?

The stuff that was deleted wasn’t about the topic at all. It was a dispute between a couple players about their qualifications of being a journalist and if they were allowed to call themselves that.

It was off-topic, and according to the new rules, I’m guessing it was insulting and a personal attack on that particular person.

So after asking for a year for better communication between the devs and the community, instead we get this which really feels like a massive step backwards.

All dissenting opinions can now be classed as personal attacks and will result in a ban. How is censorship and ignoring fan concerns going to help this game out?

CC Danicia.1394:

Our Moderation Team removed content which was off-topic to the thread. We’d like to keep this open for discussion, but we would also like it to stay on-topic.

Actually my replies were ON TOPIC about what PRESS can say

I also commented that maybe killing the official forums and going back to unofficial community lead ones would be better

as each fan site had a typical way of saying something, from there you’d get various better insight into your community

It’s pretty obvious that the last part – the whole " You have been warned " part was unnecessary.
Apart from that while I do agree that insults directed at staff members are not alright – i do not believe the accusation of lying is an insult.
It is not. It is an accusation. Which can be false or not – the person could or could not have been lying but being accused of lying is not an insult.
Especially since the whole " Arenanet lied to us " situation has a lot of grey area going for it. There was a lot of advertising that made a lot of players ( myself included) preorder the game – we gave our money based on what we were told and what we were told was then not reflected in the game.

So yes – it’s a grey area. I agree with the no-insult policy but to throw in accusations of lying in the same pot as calling someone names or insulting them is wrong in my opinion.

CC Danicia.1394:

Our Moderation Team removed content which was off-topic to the thread. We’d like to keep this open for discussion, but we would also like it to stay on-topic.

The topic being how best to observe that the new policy is draconian and delivered in threatening/amateurish tone without ever implying that the people who would initiate such a policy are by extension draconian or threating/amateurish.

Its like waltzing in a minefield .

It may seem a petty point. But “Anet lied to us” is different to “I feel that anet lied to us” The former could be seen as insulting because it’s stating it as a fact and the latter is expressing a feeling, an emotion.

So for sure, beat down on the deliberately vindictive but please don’t quash the ’I’m feeling this way’ threads and posts.

One of the key phases in dispute resolution and indeed taking criticism from passionate customers is recognizing and respecting how they feel even if it’s factually wrong.

E.g

‘I feel Anet lied to us about the manifesto’

I’m sorry you feel that way, but here’s how we are addressing the issue.
I think you have a valid point here, and we’re sorry if it appears we gave the wrong message. We’re learning all the time, and we’re doing XYZ to make sure it doesn’t happen again

Both of which are waaaayyyy better than deletion, infraction or banning which does nothing to resolve the conflict in feelings and only drives them underground to be spread by other means.

I’d be interested to hear how such threads and posts will be handled.

Harper.4173:

It’s pretty obvious that the last part – the whole " You have been warned " part was unnecessary.
Apart from that while I do agree that insults directed at staff members are not alright – i do not believe the accusation of lying is an insult.
It is not. It is an accusation. Which can be false or not – the person could or could not have been lying but being accused of lying is not an insult.
Especially since the whole " Arenanet lied to us " situation has a lot of grey area going for it. There was a lot of advertising that made a lot of players ( myself included) preorder the game – we gave our money based on what we were told and what we were told was then not reflected in the game.

So yes – it’s a grey area. I agree with the no-insult policy but to throw in accusations of lying in the same pot as calling someone names or insulting them is wrong in my opinion.

Exactly

If the community believe a lie has been told, then it is upto the game company to prove that they didn’t, OR give a solid reason why the change was made

However, promises were made, promises were broken… People believe they didn’t get the game they were paying for

CC Danicia.1394:

Nope, just plain ol’ off-topic. No infractions were given; the team simply cleaned up the off-topic like we normally do.

As much as I’m irked by the new shift in tone on the boards, this is a true statement I completely support – one of the posts removed was mine and it was totally sidebar at best and not conducive to the larger discussion.

Well played, Mods, Well played.

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

It may seem a petty point. But “Anet lied to us” is different to “I feel that anet lied to us” The former could be seen as insulting because it’s stating it as a fact and the latter is expressing a feeling, an emotion.

The problems are A ) there a cases where you can prove that’s a factual statement no matter how much people hate being fact checked, and B ) the new language seems specifically geared to allow them to infract/ban “I feel that anet lied to us”- posters under the new “clever disguise” clause.

I love how forthcoming you are Danicia. I’m scared for your job, or the backlash though :P

CC Danicia.1394:

Nike.2631:

CC Danicia.1394:

Our Moderation Team removed content which was off-topic to the thread. We’d like to keep this open for discussion, but we would also like it to stay on-topic.

The topic being how best to observe that the new policy is draconian and delivered in threatening/amateurish tone without ever implying that the people who would initiate such a policy are by extension draconian or threating/amateurish.

Its like waltzing in a minefield .

To be fair to everyone, the only thing which has changed in our policy is the insulting of our staff.

Be respectful, be critical. Don’t be rude = Normal forum rules we already have in place.

Name-calling, threats (via forums/PMs/appeals tickets) = 2 week suspension for first offense, permanent ban for the second offense.

Totally good with that Danicia, and none of you guys deserve some of the bile, BUT it is very difficult getting a straight answer in the last year or so
Surely this can be seen as a reason for some of the anger towards the company and those representing it?

CC Danicia.1394:

To be fair to everyone, the only thing which has changed in our policy is the insulting of our staff.

To be fair, that you think that following a threating and vague policy change is EXACTLY the problem/concern people are expressing in this thread.

You changed the entire tone of these boards, whether you meant to or not.

Is it unjust that ANet as a whole is getting this kind of treatment after over a year of suggestions just going in one ear and out the other treatment from players? And now this heavy handed approach is really just overdone. Fact is, it was how things were handled that caused all this “disrespect” towards the company and it’s members. And as people start getting frustrated, they get angry, as they get angry, they get rude, and as they get rude, things get said that doesn’t reflect what that person really meant to say.

Try putting yourself in our shoes for a month, and let us play in your shoes for the same month, and your mindset will change immensely as to why all of this is happening.

I was mainly looking out for you :P If you’ve got this, then I’m “in” this thead XD.

Lonesamurai.4852:

CC Danicia.1394:

Nike.2631:

CC Danicia.1394:

Our Moderation Team removed content which was off-topic to the thread. We’d like to keep this open for discussion, but we would also like it to stay on-topic.

The topic being how best to observe that the new policy is draconian and delivered in threatening/amateurish tone without ever implying that the people who would initiate such a policy are by extension draconian or threating/amateurish.

Its like waltzing in a minefield .

To be fair to everyone, the only thing which has changed in our policy is the insulting of our staff.

Be respectful, be critical. Don’t be rude = Normal forum rules we already have in place.

Name-calling, threats (via forums/PMs/appeals tickets) = 2 week suspension for first offense, permanent ban for the second offense.

Totally good with that Danicia, and none of you guys deserve some of the bile, BUT it is very difficult getting a straight answer in the last year or so
Surely this can be seen as a reason for some of the anger towards the company and those representing it?

I tried to give you a whole bunch of thumbs-up for that post. Very little of the animosity toward the devs would have ever occurred if straight answers … and some action … would have been forthcoming over the past year. Frustration breeds anger … anger breeds rudeness.

I asked a rather important question above that got merged in this thread and wasn’t answered.

Does ArenaNet feel that it is more wrong for an ArenaNet employee to be insulted than anyone else? And if not, can we expect to see the same bans for users being insulting to each other?

OK, you have posted the ground work for rules you would like us to follow. IMO the “You have been warned” was a bit heavy handed though, although I get that you wanted it to be adhered to.

Now can you please ask Chris to create the new topics we asked for so we can find ways to “move forward” on trying to help you determine the direction of the game? Thank you.

One of the reasons I feel people on the forums have become increasingly more insulting towards Anet has been the fact that over the past year not only has the game shifted direction multiple times from what players thought it was going to be but that most players ( myself included ) feel that we weren’t even kept in the loop. We had a vague idea at best as to where the game was going.

On top of that there were numerous threads in which players expressed concern about various aspects of the game or asked if certain features would or would not be implemented. If certain things were intended or not – if certain things were going to happen or not.
The majority of these threads as far as I saw were outright ignored – and the few answers that were given were too vague and too PR-heavy that you couldn’t really take anything out of them.
If a player asks something and the answer is " nothing is off the table " you’ve basically not answered anything.
The player was asking because he doesn’t know what will happen. he would like to know but as far as the information available to him goes it could happen or not. Answering with that sort of answer doesn’t really do anything.

Communication is a very important aspect – but it has to work both ways.
Numerous times feedback and suggestions were posted regarding a variety of issues and the answers came back in the tone of " we’re looking into it " – which is great – and I’m not doubting that they are but maybe add some more. Maybe let players know a little about your concerns and maybe let them be a part of the solution instead of shutting them down with a " we’re looking into it " and nothing more.

These things – coupled with various gameplay and gemstore related items have eroded the community’s faith in Anet, they have stretched the player base’s patience thin and right now the bubble is beginning to burst. Players are becoming frustrated and they’re taking it out on Anet – which is wrong and I’m not defending that – but merely offering an explanation as to why all this happened.

So – CC Danicia – if you want this community to be better – we can achieve it together but first the things above have to be taken into account and understood. Only then can we get to the cause of the issue.

CC Danicia.1394:

Nike.2631:

You changed the entire tone of these boards, whether you meant to or not.

Frankly? It needs to change so we can move forward together to make a more positive environment for us all. We’re committed to this whole process and we know that folks are going to to have difficulties.

Our team believes that if we can get everyone on track, up the communication all around, and make it more welcoming for the lurkers, it will be come a place where we really can have conversations with each other.

However deleting OPINIONS will not communicate what people think

If they are angry, they are angry for a reason

Another player posted that they lost the desire to login after this patch and I have to agree with their position. He described his experience as a patch full of problems that the team was heavily criticized for because they didn’t deliver, they were still considering logging in because of the long list of problems players who had already logged in were describing, but instead of the team rolling up their sleaves with the intention to fixit, the forum had a threatening message about critical threads. He described the atmosphere as toxic.

I’ve gotta agree here, the phrase “you have been warned” combined with the vague description of “cleverly disguised” add to that all of our previous experiences with overzealous moderation on threads where our concerns are very warranted doesn’t give us much hope that this game is heading in a direction of improvement at the moment.

I mean I remember complaining with hundreds of posters about the serious problems with loot which was a combination of magic find and DR apparently but we were met with not one but multiple deletions of these threads as well as being told we were basically imagining the whole thing after these threads were filled with people’s posts being deleted left and right for the slightest sense of being frustrated about the situation. I’m hoping this isn’t a repeat of that incident coming over the bend.

Danicia, you really should remove that last line from the post. From the perspective of a casual observer, it almost sounds like you are trying to pick a fight with people. Don’t underestimate the Streisand effect… if people can’t communicate here, in an environment you have some control over, they will go elsewhere and you will not be able to control that.

On the other note, the amount of mistakes, condescending comments and trigger happy responses from the black post mods at times is disappointing. There have been plenty of times I have seen threads closed when they were not doing any harm or worse, when developers were posting and discussing things with users…

If you want to achieve a better community environment, it needs to come from both sides and ensuring those mods treat customers with respect. Sure, a game forum harbors negative attitudes, but Chris’s posts from last week are defiantly an improvement. Look at my post history for example – I was ‘infracted’ for posting a thread saying that on my server, gold sellers had gotten around your flood control and had been spamming for hours on end even after being reported frequently. The entire mapchat was, for hours, gold seller spam. My thread was infracted and deleted for including an image as proof that it was occuring. How is that supposed to make someone feel? They go out of their way to try to let you know a problem and that is how your mods respond? Even if including a picture was bad in their eyes, removing it would have taken far less time than it does to delete a thread/infract/post notification etc.

Common respect goes both ways. Posting ‘you have been warned’ does not exemplify a respectful or mature environment. Please don’t ban me for having an opinion. I go out of my way to try to help you guys out, but sometimes trying to be calm and respectful is hard with the nature of how your mods treat people…

Everyone has an opinion, most of them are horrible. The majority of mine are deleted, and for good reason :P I’m also a huge Danicia fanboy now, so disregard that.

CC Danicia.1394:

Lonesamurai.4852:

However deleting OPINIONS will not communicate what people think

If they are angry, they are angry for a reason

You can be angry. You can state your opinions. You can say how frustrated you are. We ask that you are respectful towards each other, as well as our staff.

You’re right, it does
However people feel it is not coming the other way
the community feels ignored
the community are angry

OptimusPrimo.9547:

I don’t see the issue with “You have been warned” being used in the final line.

I do. I’m not a child, and I don’t appreciate being treated like one by someone who wants me to purchase their products.

Asenic Touch.7960:

Saying someone lied isn’t a personal attack however, especially when you provide evidence of it. This is a very dangerous slippery slope, though I’m not even remotely surprised given the state of things.

Indeed. As someone who has – on more than one occasion – accussed ArenaNet of “selling out”, “doing a 180”, and “abandoning the ideals upon which they build this game” (none of which was done without providing reasons based on facts why I believe so), I can easily see an overzealous moderator punishing me for a “cleverly disguised attack”.

I don’t condone personal attacks against the developers; I’ve reported more than a few in an effort to help keep this forum a civil place where we can all discuss the game we enjoy. But the tone of that warning crossed into an area that gives a broad license to squash out critical commentary of a constructive and respectful nature. As I’ve been quite critical of the direction the game has taken lately, I think I’ll avoid any potential “misunderstandings” and just stop posting altogether.

So, to go over my concern directly now that the Mods have provided me with the tools to do so.

The new policy throws a specific spotlight on “cleverly worded” attacks. The word you are looking for is innuendo. It is the great, nearly lost art of saying “Have you noticed the weather today” and having everyone in the room understand your actual message was, “your mother fornicates with rats”.

The new rules say that innuendo in any form is a suspension/bannable offense. The problem is we’re discussing a creation that does not spring fully formed from the void – EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of this game is someone’s accomplishment. There is nothing we can speak of that isn’t personal to SOMEBODY at ANet. ANd we can no longer safely discuss in less than glowing term it because it all reflects on somebody.

I tossed out a bit of innuendo earlier:

“The topic being how best to observe that the new policy is draconian and delivered in threatening/amateurish tone without ever implying that the people who would initiate such a policy are by extension draconian or threating/amateurish.”

I drew a direct line between the Mods and being personally amateurish (in a moderately playful way). I even know I caught their eye, because they quoted it and responded. Under the new rules that was a cleverly worded personal attack… which did not (as of the time of this posting) get me a suspension.

My concern is you’ve made nearly everything we say subject to moment-to-moment assessment on a policy you simply cannot enforce uniformly. It’s become an exercise in moderator whim, backed by some of the most severe tools in your toolbox.

If you don’t see that as dangerous and, more importantly, stiffing of discussion, I don’t know how I can spell it out more clearly.

Arrow.3856:

This kinda seems like a response to the recent incident that I will not mention in fear of being infracted. All I will say is it is sad that it has come to this. Where ArenaNet has to give themselves a boost in power in order to make sure they are not at fault. Anet vs The Players?

^I was trying to give my opinion on this but I’m sure somehow that can be worthy of an infraction.

Yup, this has turned into Anet vs Gw2 players now. We see it in the forums….as well as in the game.

For example, charging 2 bucks per BLC key and hiding new skins in BLC. If Anet were to treat its customers with the respect we deserve (as any business treats its customers), then they would have listened to us and either

A) Make BLC keys a lot cheaper. 2 bucks per key is an insult.
B) Keep the same price per key but actually give us a net worth of 2 bucks per open chest.

I get Anet needs money to keep the game alive. I have bought a lot of gems because of it. Im a customer and I do not like to be ripped off. There needs to be a balance to things. If I pay x amount of money, I expect to receive goods that are worth the x amount of money I paid.

There are also other reasons as to why this forums has turned out as “negative” as it is now. Anet is completely wrong in blaming it on the players. Its like a bad ruler blaming its people for protesting in the streets.

The very basic problem has been that Anet has so far been under delivering in almost all aspects of the game. How can you blame your players for being angry?? It doesn’t matter how they voice it. The problem is that they are angry. Make us happy. Happy players will lead to more happy talk.

Anet waging a war against its players is not a very good sign at all. I would tread cautiously from now on….with my wallet too.

CC Danicia.1394:

Nike.2631:

CC Danicia.1394:

Our Moderation Team removed content which was off-topic to the thread. We’d like to keep this open for discussion, but we would also like it to stay on-topic.

The topic being how best to observe that the new policy is draconian and delivered in threatening/amateurish tone without ever implying that the people who would initiate such a policy are by extension draconian or threating/amateurish.

Its like waltzing in a minefield .

To be fair to everyone, the only thing which has changed in our policy is the insulting of our staff.

Be respectful, be critical. Don’t be rude = Normal forum rules we already have in place.

Name-calling, threats (via forums/PMs/appeals tickets) = 2 week suspension for first offense, permanent ban for the second offense.

The problem in my opinion is a total lack of credibility on the part of the moderation system. One of my first infractions was for saying ‘I second this’ while quoting another post. That post as not infracted or deleted, just mine. My appeal to the listed email, never received a response.

Now this same system is going to be policing what a personal attack is, considering your own vague list… not really that encouraging. I feel like I should just post a big manifesto on what I think because it is just a matter of time before I get an arbitrary ban regardless of how careful I am.

Sometimes you need to step back and think would they say what they post to someone face to face? I suspect 99% of the ppl who say the conspiratorial/unpleasant things to others/anet on here do so due to an aspect of anonymity.

I’m unhappy with communication – for eg the early removal of the TA LS meta which has been reported on a few subforums w/o response. But, feedback is all you can do. Kicking off, screaming, shouting, accusing etc wont make the devs respond any better/quicker, in fact likely the opposite. Frankly these new rules are a welcome addition for both Anet and the community.

At the end of the day, it is just a game. Feedback the issues properly, trust they will be dealt with even if there is no response. If not, meh, it is just a game. There are far more troubling issues in this world than a few unbalanced skills in a video game.

CC Danicia.1394:

Clark Skinner.4902:

Does ArenaNet feel that it is more wrong for an ArenaNet employee to be insulted than anyone else?

No. Unfortunately, we do have to infract, suspend, and ban numerous folks from the forums, who have never once insulted our team.

So these people who insult an other player will also get the 2-week suspension?

CC Danicia.1394:

Nike.2631:

You changed the entire tone of these boards, whether you meant to or not.

Frankly? It needs to change so we can move forward together to make a more positive environment for us all.

Then why did you just say “Nothing’s changed”? Why the placating language when the goal is direct, hopefully positive change?

Be honest with us, and give some thought to the next announcement of board policy, because as constructive criticism, I think you can do it better than what we saw this morning.

Another question on the new policy:
(and I apologize if this was covered already)

10 months ago I received a warning for a post that used the subject line “Question for (ArenaNet staff name)”. In the subject line I used the name of the staff member who had posted the Game Update notes from the previous week because my question was specifically about those update notes. From my point of view I was responding to a post by that person. My post was deleted and the warning I received stated not to use “staff callouts in thread titles”. However for all other purposes my post was constructive and polite. There was no profanity, insults, or any other kind of attack. Since then I have been careful with all my forums posts and have tried hard not to post anything that was directed at ArenaNet.

So my question is if this were to happen again today with the new policy would I be banned for 2 weeks? If I write a post that has the target audience of the ArenaNet developers and the post is 100% constructive and helpful will that post be removed and will I get banned?

Any clarification on the old and new policy would be appreciated.

Thank you.

One of the things players have asked for was the return of GW1 skins in the gem store or in the game – through other means of obtaining them.
To this day I don’t know of any official response or stance on the matter – all that feedback, all those suggestions , all those individuals asking for something they love ( and something that they would probably pay for) completely disregarded – it feels like nobody is even listening.

A simple " These will be coming in the future " or " We do not plan to implement them any time soon " would have alleviated a lot of stress and even if the answer was a plain " no" it would still have been better since we would have seen that somebody actually listened to us – and took the time to acknowledge us.

These are issues that need to be addressed before we can move on and have more constructive communication.

Asuka Shikinami.5462:

Danicia, you really should remove that last line from the post. From the perspective of a casual observer, it almost sounds like you are trying to pick a fight with people. Don’t underestimate the Streisand effect… if people can’t communicate here, in an environment you have some control over, they will go elsewhere and you will not be able to control that.

On the other note, the amount of mistakes, condescending comments and trigger happy responses from the black post mods at times is disappointing. There have been plenty of times I have seen threads closed when they were not doing any harm or worse, when developers were posting and discussing things with users…

This is what I’m seeing as well. If they are really serious about collaboration then their previous rule would be enough to handle the situation. We’re angry for a reason and making statements like “anet is not doing what they are supposed to be doing as a developer” shouldn’t be a bannable offense.

If they don’t want us to go shouting on the hills thru the very means they used to advertise this game “word of mouth” on every corner that they won’t even allow us to explain our case on their own forums because anything is now considered negative and therefore bannable that’s not going to help their image or increase the number of people playing the game and their track record of making bad patches low priority “fixes” that help no one and patches that weren’t well tested in the first place will further seal the deal especially if some other games in the works get a sudden spike in development funds and attract players away from this title to another in a sudden move. It won’t end well if this becomes the policy I agree.

Nike.2631:

Then why did you just say “Nothing’s changed”?

CC Danicia.1394:

To be fair to everyone, the only thing which has changed in our policy is the insulting of our staff.

You should read people’s posts if you want to accuse them of saying something.

This whole situation reminds me of another official forum of a known RPG maker, which suddenly reinforced moderation when it faced overwhelming criticism of their ending to a trilogy. Just like in that particular case, Arenanet decided to warn the players (more or less, and on what can be considered an aggressive tone), rather than sit down and talk to the players about what worries them.

I agree that personal attacks don’t belong here, but truth is I didn’t really see much of that when browsing the forums. Mind you, I don’t really check the sPvP and WvWvW forums. What I did see, however, was that very few of the concerns raised by people were addressed. I don’t think there was an answer as to why the updated Halloween recipes require such an atrocious amount of materials which are not reasonably obtainable while the Halloween event lasts. I’m also not sure there were answers as to why the game is beginning to require more and more grind as updates are released, or why is there a time gate on most of the new things you released.

My point is, people are worried and want answers. And I dare say you aren’t handling the situation well at all. I think the game’s at a crossroads at the moment. Discontent is growing, and I can see that not only on the official forums. Of course, some will say it’s the same in every MMO and that people are just complaining for the sake of complaining, but I disagree. I don’t like the direction the game is going, and I believe many others agree with me. But I guess we will all have to wait and see what Arenanet’s next move is.