Actually it generally does have to be instructional, or at least visible. You’re not going to know the frets or chords just by watching someone play the guitar…unless you’re like absurdly hyper observant.
And how many qualifiers was that just now?
Disingenuous. You’re just selecting terms without context. You won’t get better at a dungeon by just watching someone do the dungeon, unless you’re hyper observant. Watching a video isn’t going to teach you about fire fields or the proper order of skills. Just playing with skilled players in a dungeon isn’t going to teach you about these things…unless they’re instructing you on the subject. Same with PvP, you might learn some basic positioning ideas – but when it comes to the finesse you’ll have your kitten in the dirt because there are varying degrees and you won’t have the finesse of impromptu combat and tactical direction.
Did you read the rest of the post? Or are you cherrypicking like Rangelost?
Like I said to Rangelost (and intended for you as well since it was the same post), you’re interchanging learning something and getting better at it. You also seem to advocate one style of learning instead of recognizing the synergy between incorporating multiple perspectives.
Please look in the mirror before throwing back something unfounded like “disingenuous”.
Who is to say those players always getting 600 in Bell Choir are not using macros? If that is ‘ok’, what will be ‘ok’ next?
that is not okay, Anet said the macro’s for playing instruments are only fine when not giving an advantage for winning and or gaining in some way, using a macro in bell choir is not okay, and they explicitly said things of that nature are an offense.
Anyone who thinks macros and botting don’t go hand-in-hand needs to do a little more research before they comment again.
Mind explaining then? Because as I see it, ANet’s definition of a macro is multiple outputs for a single keystroke. That doesn’t sound very much like a bot, since a bot operates on automated keystrokes without human intervention.
Macros allow you to not only execute a recorded string of keystrokes, but also to set timers. This means people could begin sharing map completion macros. Players would then only have to push one button and go AFK while the character explores the entire zone by itself. While macros may not be able to react to mobs, it’s still a type of botting.
It takes skill out of a performance. If you buy an instrument you should either already have or develop the skill to play it. If not then why bother. You don’t buy a Casio keyboard and only play the built in songs, you buy one to actually play.
So I’m against instrument macros. If you can play it well, it should be your own talent and not some keystroke injector.
In theory, I have no issue with it as it’s only for music. Unfortunately, I can see more than a few players using this excuse to apply it to other uses. “I wasn’t hacking or botting, I was . . . um . . . playing this flute! See?” And, because it’s hard to actually observe said behavior at the time, it may be easier to outlaw them all.
Again, I’m not worried about the music aspect. More power to that. My fear is it could be used as a gateway for more nefarious behavior.
This is actually very much false, on the basis that every single action performed by every single player in the game is logged for what is usually a fairly extended period of time. This is agreed to in the ToS albeit not explicitly stated as such.
So for example, double clicking on an item like a flute to use, and then cancelling it and using the macro as a way to do something, is all recorded. A glance at the logs will show that at say, day 792 time 18:00:00, inventory slot 41 was clicked, as well as 18:00:02, which notes a double click on item id123465789. At 18:01:45, with some movement actions taken in between, the player used the auto-attack function against monster X dealing Y damage at Z location, and then proceeded to repeat skill use in an exact pattern and time increment for the next fourteen hours.
There is no way to hide this, either, as it’s all done on ANet’s servers and databases. There is no way to hack this, prevent this, or make it not exist without hacking the servers and databases directly, in which case, the user would have total and utter control over the game, basically, giving an idea as to how difficult it is to pull that off.
The difficulty comes in the difficulty reporting it; but that’s basically player responsibility of finding the bots and then reporting them, and so far nobody’s managed to create a way which automatically bans bots with 100% accuracy and never bans an innocent person.
Not to mention a lot of bots are supervised by gold farmers overlooking multiple computers simultaneously botting who also throw in a stray key press to prevent any kind of behavioral ban software as well as to respond to staff asking about the use of botting before a ban is given.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
I could not possibly care less. They do no harm and can’t exacerbate the harm already elsewise done by this activity.
Macros? Anyone keen on abusing those probably already is our has been and got dealt with.
Either way, not a concern to me.
This is actually very much false, on the basis that every single action performed by every single player in the game is logged for what is usually a fairly extended period of time. This is agreed to in the ToS albeit not explicitly stated as such.
You are under the impression that the ‘proof’ of this tracking is flawless and without question. To use your own words, we know this is very much false because people have been accused of such behavior and have later been proven innocent due to a misunderstanding or even placing blame on the wrong individual.
Other erroneous proof is a sudden windfall of gold to a player.
We also know that people have reported others for these issues, yet they stayed for quite a while. Months in some cases. To be blunt, this tracking is of behavior. Not of botting itself.
If a certain action is repeated, it becomes suspect. But that does not necessarily mean the player is using a macro or botting.
I can speak of this from experience. At one point, a developer asked me what I was doing. Apparently, at some point, a player reported me for botting because I was farming a certain area for the slayer achievement and for materials.
When it became clear I was not using a macro or botting, the issue was resolved. So, you see, your ‘tracking’ hypothesis is in error.
Again, it’s not macros or botting they’re tracking, but behavior.
(edited by Ardenwolfe.8590)
I can speak of this from experience. At one point, a developer asked me what I was doing. Apparently, at some point, a player reported me for botting because I was farming a certain area for the slayer achievement and for materials.
When it became clear I was not using a macro or botting, the issue was resolved. So, you see, your ‘tracking’ hypothesis is in error.
Why would I not be surprised if this happens very often? GW2 players seem extremely abusive with the report function. Simply standing and farming a critter is some how a monumental, report worthy, offense? GG… players need to move along, mind their own business, and let other play how they want too. Which lead me to the same opinion on macro’s. Which is move along folks and let other player their game, their way too.
Post length requirements…
Post length requirements…
All of what I said was in response to what was said about it being difficult to prove macro use. It’s very easy to do when it actually occurs. Those logs exist; why did you get asked? Because you were too inconsistent in the logs to make “botting” easily-identifiable, and like I said, gold farmers do have human watchdogs to make these randomized adjustments (and more complex scripts using RNG-timers/position changes) to make them appear more human. I even said perfect/automative scripts ban issuing is impossible BECAUSE of this, and also said that it relies solely on players to report it when they suspect they have seen it because you cannot have a computer examine human behavior (they really filter the synonym for look at? -.-). I don’t understand why you’re disagreeing with me seeing as I said in that exact post that programmatic tracking isn’t possible; and that “tracking” is entirely dependent on player reports – because otherwise one would have to have a constant eye on every log ever which is millions of actions per second and thus impossible to do – which is why they exist to begin with; with a report, logs and log segments can be targeted by specific players at specific times which heavily narrows the investigation. I assure you that if the GM’s were told they never had to do another bot investigation, they’d all be thrilled.
Great you’ve been reported to understand there is human interaction involved; I work as a GM in another MMO. I’ve actually looked at these logs and used them to make bans on botting accounts. Yes, false reports happen, but like I said, because it’s not possible to make a program which can kitten behavior with 100% accuracy – or even close to it – the system has to remain imperfect in regards to the need to check what gets reported, thus requiring said GM’s to log in an ask about the validity of the player’s actions. And like I also said, even then, it’s not entirely possible because gold farmers will respond in chat to avoid the ban. Actually, it’s probably why the GM came and asked you – were you talking in guild chat, or doing anything else in the meantime that would define active play when that report was made? All of your chat records are logged as well, with time stamps. An easy search on chat logs during that time frame by you could determine whether or not you were botting.
These issues can also take a while because players often abuse the support/ticket feature by creating too many tickets for one problem in hopes it makes it go faster. I wouldn’t be surprised that if in a given day, a hundred thousand or so tickets are created for the folks at ANet to deal with, plus all of the support work for existing tickets, account investigation work, bug reporting in proper formatting, etc. Firsthand I can tell you that it’s a massive amount of work and in most cases bot reports end up low on the priority list unless there’s a big bust, for some reported issues are substantially bigger problems. I recall a case I was working on that took me a year to finish because of a guild in said other game was using a program to inject and duplicate consumable items. Banning and detecting them was the easy part; finding the resource was the hard part. I had to work my way into the guild and eventually get my hands on this program and its creators to get the devs to patch the game and law enforcement to take down the creators. It costed the company well over a $million. I’d say a few hundred bucks lost to someone botting is negligible in cases like that.
So is the entire process easy? No. But it doesn’t make nailing them particularly difficult when they actually are botting; as my posts indicate, the more human-like the behavior of a suspected player is, the more difficult it is to prove. But, in the instances where it is clearly happening, it is VERY obvious.
I believe a larger reason for the prevention of macro use is because of PvP. It would make extremely difficult builds like my stab thief very easy to play if all of it could be set up on a few different macros by case.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
I personally use macro’s for playing instruments in game. I like being in-game and unwinding after work and there are a few songs on the harp that take the edge off. I try to stay out of heavy traffic areas and when someone does stop to listen, I tell them that I did not play that…someone else more dedicated than I took the time to record the macro after playing and tweaking it for days or weeks. I’ve been tipped gold a few times now and have promptly returned it.
As for others using it, I will sit and listen to people playing instruments without a care if they are playing it or if it’s a macro. It adds some variety to the typical soundtrack and it feels like a bonus to me when I get to hear something new. If someone is playing it themselves, I have a ton of respect for them. If they use a macro, thanks for the song.
In regards to macro use in other aspects of the game, if there is no impact (reward for the user or limiting of reward for others around), I am ok with it. I’m not sure what macro used in the game outside of playing instruments would fall into that category.
I don’t use this to further myself in the game or hurt anyone else’s playing experience.
Officially allowing macros for instruments was the right call to make.
Given the god-awful implementation of instrument interface in GW2 it’s a no brainer to allow players to work around the sloppy mess of note playing that they gave us.
It’s all fine and dandy, if you want to stand on the corner bleating out your best work, trying to play decent music by hand. That’s on you. Don’t begrudge talented macro writers for blowing your crappy “live” performance out of the water with transposed works of art.
The real protest of allowing macros and instruments in large comes from those that feel their special little snowflake status is melting away because suddenly their “mary had a little lamb” performance is getting ignored in favour of a macroed Mozart piece.
I believe, Deceiver, given the length and breath of your post, you are missing the point in your attempt to defend your previous position. It is, regardless, also not part of the overall discussion.
The topic is about macros for music. Not your lauded experiences as a former GM elsewhere nor your insight into those investigations.
Let’s stick with the actual topic at hand.
The thread is about instruments, the previous discussion which I responded to, was not.
My post also again responds to various other things that were mentioned which were not related to instruments but macro use in general, and the ability to catch abusers. You were the one to actually mention that such an argument about using a flute to try and cover macro use over another activity and that it was difficult to prove/observe at the time. I responded by saying there are logs, and if a player sees someone botting, then they will get reported, and the excuse of “I was playing the flute” will not hold to those working in support. Look at your previous posts before claiming mine as off-topic, please.
Well I used to care a lot about stuff like this. Back when I played LOTRO I used to get mad when people would compliment people who were using ABC files for their musical skills. (ABC played notes showed up hollow, but people didn’t make the distinction.)
With GW2’s system, I rarely play anything good due to the octave switching system and the number of instruments that lack unison/harmony. So the macros don’t bother me.
Just, if you see a bunch of people trying to ACTUALLY play notes, it’s rude if you go crash that party with a macro.
I have to say I LOVE it when people try to play popular songs on the horn without a macro. Especially when they screw up notes. I feel like I’m not laughing at them, but rather laughing with them. Something about the horn just brings out the “just do it” mentality.
I think ArenaNet should add a BUILT IN macro tool that only works with instruments that allows players to compose their pieces and save them.
Then we can go back to the very clear “No Macros” policy.
I think ArenaNet should add a BUILT IN macro tool that only works with instruments that allows players to compose their pieces and save them.
Then we can go back to the very clear “No Macros” policy.
But that’d be work. Nevermind that they could sell access to it as an unlock in the gemstore.
Work is harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd!
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