Guild Wars 2

JustTrogdor.7892:

I hope the scrapped the idea.

agreed. this is such a terrible idea.

I also would think that a such a tag would make a person less likely to post in some circumstances. If everything s/he says has more “weight” than a random person then it’s harder for them to post in frivolous, lightweight threads in a frivolous, lightweight manner as they are likely to be singled out for comment about whether or not what they say is what ANet thinks and also whether or not what they are saying is appropriate there. (Because you know, it can be explained till you are blue in the face that they are not official but that explanation is not going to be known or believed by all).

It also means that in a serious discussion their opinion has more weight than Mr Random, regardless of whether they are saying the same things or not.

I still think this is a bad idea. I wouldn’t dream of applying for such a position, but if I did, I sure as shootin’ wouldn’t want to use my own personal account for it.

Why not? Well, you might as well paint a bulls-eye on each and every forum specialist, because they will be targets — and not just on the forums, but in the game.

There’s the "Hey, this person has a direct channel to the devs! " factor, which, true or not, is likely to be the perception. “Hey, could you tell the devs…”

On top of that, somebody, somewhere, is going to misunderstand or take offense at something a forum specialist says, no matter how tactfully or helpfully he or she says it. If the forum specialist is using his or her own account while acting as forum specialist, then he or she will be wide open to in-game abuse from the offended party, and quite possibly that party’s in-game pals.

Another factor: I assume someone will be monitoring all this. Surely it will require special attention, both to make sure the forum specialists don’t overstep their bounds, as well as to deal with any hostility or other unwanted attention that may be directed at them. Do you guys really want to increase your forum ‘workload’ (for lack of a better term)? To put it another way, is the forum specialist plan truly going to provide benefits to everyone involved that will be worth the time, trouble, and potential for disaster?

Closing (attempt at) witticism: I think this is an idea best nipped in the bud, before it becomes a giant, evil, forumite-eating monster. That sings. And possibly dances.

Danikat.8537:

I think it would be very helpful to have something, not necessarily a separate account, to distinguish when they are acting as a forum specialist and when they are simply posting as a normal forum member.

Even if it’s as simple as making a rule that they put a banner or something at the top of forum specialist posts, for example:

Forum Specialist

That way it’s clear to everyone how their posts should be taken – tagged ones are them acting in their official role, untagged ones are simply a normal post.

Otherwise I think there may be a tendency to take everything they say as official word from Anet, or at least as an indication of what your position is likely to be, and that would be frustrating both for specialist who want to keep posting their own opinions, ideas and speculation and for everyone else who has to interact with them.

They wouldn’t need to label their posts as being “official” or “unofficial” since the program description says they will only post in “player-to-player (unofficial)” capacity.

Basaltface.2786:

I somehow got a very bad feeling about this specialist program…

It does not bode well for any forum to be giving special tags out when it is already so heavily fractured into divisive groups.

I see that a program like this could be good for the community but only if implemented right with the right people.

A big question spurred into my mind was that a person(s) could not reveal, present, or communicate any inside information they obtain from Arenanet. Does this mean that Forum Specialists will receive information and they then will target discussion and collect data on the overall community’s opinion and want on certain aspect/mechanics of the game that may be implemented, improved, removed or otherwise?

If no, what is a Forum Specialist’s objective as an unofficial Arenanet representative? Are they to be more focused on creating discussion about any idea that is possible and collecting that data and any other data that may prove useful to Arenanet’s assets for improving the game.

How will these Forum Specialists be treated as individuals by the Arenanet staff and the community members. As we’ve seen before on the forums, forum members tend to harass developers when they post. Even though those persons can and often will be infactured for those type of posts, what is to prevent those individuals from being harassed in game by their user name on the forums? Will Forum Specialists have a safety guard against those that will harass them? In a perfect world this wouldn’t be an issue, but the internet can bring the worst of our behaviors out. This here would be a major concern when signing up.

How will these specialists be chosen? Even though it is based on an area of expertise, how do you ensure an individual is experienced in a certain area? Though some forum postings may show an intellect of a subject, a few forum posts, as stated by the requirements, in no way can show a full expertise of an area. And how do we determine community engagement? Some topics have been covered multiple times and constantly reappear. Does self choosing of not joining these repeated topics affect one’s standing?

Sincerely,
Xter

Gaile Gray.6029:

Astral Projections.7320:

Is there really any reason to make public who the forum specialist are since they mostly are there to report back to ANet? I don’t see why someone needs a tag for that. Having a tag opens up possibilities of them being constantly harassed about being white knights and ANet toadies. Imo, it would be better not to have people publicly labeled as being “semi official” when they have no official function other than collate information and report or linking official posts (which anyone can do).

That is a really thought-provoking comment!

What do others feel about this? I’m very interested in feedback on the subject of making specialists public or not.

Thats actually a good point and i would agree that they shouldnt be made public because it negates a lot, if not all possible problems i listed.

By linking existing threads, stickies, posts that are relevant in new topics and looking like regular forum members, they also set good examples for other forum users without waving the “Anet Flag”.

I’m concerned whether forum specialists will truly condense all viewpoints in an unbiased matter. Whether or not they get new accounts, or if their identity remains hidden, I feel that for the sake of accountability it needs to be clear what information the FS are presenting to the GW2 employees. If an opinion, however the minority or unpopular, is neglected, overlooked, or otherwise brushed off and undrerepresented by a FS, there needs to be a way for the general public to speak up about that.

Neural.1824:

Basaltface.2786:

I somehow got a very bad feeling about this specialist program…

It does not bode well for any forum to be giving special tags out when it is already so heavily fractured into divisive groups.

thats exactly why i think that way man… this is destined to backfire horrible for all sides.

Basaltface.2786:

Neural.1824:

Basaltface.2786:

I somehow got a very bad feeling about this specialist program…

It does not bode well for any forum to be giving special tags out when it is already so heavily fractured into divisive groups.

thats exactly why i think that way man… this is destined to backfire horrible for all sides.

Agreed, and I hope they don’t do it. But if they do…
::grabs popcorn::

The best way i see this working is for the tag of the forum specialists to only be seen by A-net employees. This way the posts stand out to them, but for everybody else they’re just users. No tag to see means no harrasment. But their contribution can be clearly seen by those that need to.

Palador.2170:

Basaltface.2786:

Neural.1824:

Basaltface.2786:

I somehow got a very bad feeling about this specialist program…

It does not bode well for any forum to be giving special tags out when it is already so heavily fractured into divisive groups.

thats exactly why i think that way man… this is destined to backfire horrible for all sides.

Agreed, and I hope they don’t do it. But if they do…
::grabs popcorn::

ohh they will do it and its gonna be a beautiful… beautiful trainwreck…like it always ends up if you give somebody a form of power in a forum that is so divided in opinions on stuff.

A Forum what now?! O.o

Sorry I am a WvW player and spent most of my time there and in the WvW forum.
Seems no mod or dev bothered to post in there about this….

The term ‘White Knight’ may be replaced by ‘Forum Specialist’ and used in the same derogatory manner, whether Forum Specialists are named, or anonymous.

The only difference is that many more posters will be accused of being a FS/WK, if anonymous.

Harassment may occur in-game and out, either way. I hope there are exigency plans in place.

Make it a forum rule that they can’t ask someone if they are a Forum Specialist?

That way the person doesn’t have to admit to it (or lie for that matter).

Edit: probably bring in other problems. Such as accusations of secrecy.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Wanze.8410:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Any other questions?

Will the FS operate and post with their existing game (and forum accounts) or will they get new ones?

We have not made a final decision on this. What’s your opinion? Is there a reason it should be one or the other?

I see pluses and minuses to either choice. I can’t help but wonder how the forum membership as a whole will have faith in a specialist who uses an anonymous account. If they are chosen for their history, should their history be hidden? On the other hand, I’d like to hear your concerns or comments in relation to how a specialist might prefer not to post on his/her game account. Since specialists won’t be doing controversial actions, such as moderating posts or suspending accounts, I am not sure what benefit is derived by hiding their name, but I’d like to hear others’ thoughts.

I should mention that no one at ArenaNet has a “sock puppet” account that allows him or her to post anonymously aside from the Customer Support agents who post using their “handles.” When we set up forum accounts for employees we use a team member’s real name. But be assured we wouldn’t ask a specialist to reveal his/her real name.

In another game I play a shstem of this sort was implemented to good effect on the forums. The forum volunteers kept their normal posting identities. This led to in game harassment by certain players. Of course official sanction caught up with the harassers but an after the fact ban does not undo a ruined play session or emotional distress caused by threats or hateful slurs. Once a player has what appears to be any form of official status he is much more likely to be a target for grief.

Farzo.8410:

I’m sure we will actually get nice and good people for this.

I would just cringe to see actual white knights becoming one. I want people who question everything and speaks their honest opinion instead of hiding behind the “Everything is and will always be fine with this game.”

Guild Wars 2 is a good game, no doubt about it. But recently (in my opinion) it’s facing a lot of problems.

What makes you think white knights don’t speak their honest opinion?

Gaile Gray.6029:

We have not made a final decision on this. What’s your opinion? Is there a reason it should be one or the other?

They should definitely get a new name or handle. This should not only protect the specialist, but it should curb some of the bias forum members have for certain individuals. I will include myself in that equation. If I see certain posters as specialists, regardless of their knowledge, I will most likely dismiss their postings because I already do. But the likelihood of those persons becoming a specialist is rather thin, if I am to be honest.

In theory anyway.

If those specialists choose to reveal their identity, that’s should also be their choice.

Change the name from Forum Specialist to Valued Forum Poster and offer this to anyone and everyone who is consistently helpful and accurate. These people get a tag. Out of this group, ANet quietly contacts and asks if they are willing to do the job of a Forum Specialist. These people do not get a tag, are not allowed to post this offer or acceptance in the forum and get no special recognition.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Gaile Gray.6029:

We have not made a final decision on this. What’s your opinion? Is there a reason it should be one or the other?

They should definitely get a new name or handle. This should not only protect the specialist, but it should curb some of the bias some forum members have for certain individuals.

In theory anyway.

If those specialists choose to reveal their identity, that’s should also be their choice.

Now turn that arround on the other side of the medal… where is my forum only account to protect myself from bias? Oh yea i dont need one cause i am not a FS…though i technically can or could do almost the same as a FS…just without a fancy title. So yea.. where is my identity protection? Why isnt my name blurred out? You can see my name right? Basaltface.2786? Could i hide my name to reply you? No? Why should they? If i will get most likely gonna be ridiculed for my opinion on certain topics or just “waved off” by a future FS (and im calling it.. thats gonna backfire horrible, just a matter of time)…i wanna atleast know the account name. Why would i wanna know that? Cause i can more or less report that guy\girl when they dont do their…uhh..lets say for the moment “job” proper…like you can report me anytime for not following rules, harrasing you cause mlg trollz4lolz or whatever else is not alright. Yea nope…. sorry but have a bowl of nopes with a scoop of whipped nope and a nope cherry ontop.

First, let me say your response was incredibly immature. But let’s forgo your lack of tact and discuss that issue.

You are also not a so-called ‘white knight’ defending a rah-rah-rah position. That’s how some of our fellow posters will see you. You are now a more noted public figure with a known identity.

I don’t think it too much to ask for there to be some form of buffer for those specialists.

Plus, I would also like for those persons to be able to continue to enjoy the game without the random whisper of some forum member who may or may not want to continue a ‘debate’ in-game through private messages. For some, they’ll see a forum specialist as someone with a huge target on their head.

Let’s not kid ourselves about that.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Astral Projections.7320:

Is there really any reason to make public who the forum specialist are since they mostly are there to report back to ANet? I don’t see why someone needs a tag for that. Having a tag opens up possibilities of them being constantly harassed about being white knights and ANet toadies. Imo, it would be better not to have people publicly labeled as being “semi official” when they have no official function other than collate information and report or linking official posts (which anyone can do).

That is a really thought-provoking comment!

What do others feel about this? I’m very interested in feedback on the subject of making specialists public or not.

I agree. No designation is the clearest and easiest way to avoid future problems.

Vix.6730:

I agree. No designation is the clearest and easiest way to avoid future problems.

That may be the best route.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

First, let me say your response was incredibly immature. But let’s forgo your lack of tact and discuss that issue.

You are also not a so-called ‘white knight’ defending a rah-rah-rah position. That’s how some of our fellow posters will see you. You are now a more noted public figure with a known identity.

I don’t think it too much to ask for there to be some form of buffer for those specialists.

Plus, I would also like for those persons to be able to continue to enjoy the game without the random whisper of some forum member who may or may not want to continue a ‘debate’ in-game through private messages. For some, they’ll see a forum specialist as someone with a huge target on their head.

Let’s not kid ourselves about that.

Well its optional… nobody forces people to sign up for it. I however dont got a choice in that. If i want it or not its gonna happen and i gonna have a FS breathing down my neck soon enough and there is nothing i can do about it. I saw enough “give people the slightest amount of power on the internet and watch em go caligula” situations. I dont want to have MY opinions diminished by somebody who isnt even employed by a-net…if a dev or forum moderator tells me to stuff my kittenhole its a completely different theme man. Forum order is a good thing and communication between a-net and the community is a good thing too obviosly. Im fully aware i sound like a massive D…but i dont want a…lets call it “secret police” who can just silence me cause they dont like what im typing. I might be an extreme example.. but there are certain sides outthere that i wont name that flat out just ban you for stating your opinions or delete your topics without any good explainations and you will never know who did it. I just dont want this to happen (as small as it may be) in that forum here…or give it any chance at ALL to plant even the smallest seed for that…and this may or may not be a seed, i personally take no chances with this stuff. It also does not matter the slightest if its a “white knight” a “black knight” or whatever, everybody got opinions. Even if i, myself would apply to that program i would want to have my name displayed cause i know what i would sign up for…what i technically could but wont. But yea.. im not gonna act like you dont bring up good points…but i personally couldnt care less, its optional afterall and they sign up to it fully knowing what they go into, its like telling somebody there is a lion pit they walk into and putting a neon sign above the door with a huge comical neon arrow pointing at it and flashing the words “lion pit”. Im not gonna say that the community is sunshine and rainbows…heck im a guy who cant stop complaining about certain issues myself. If its “needed” give em new accounts.. but the darn name is visible, there is a tag that states that its a FS and there is an option to report them for power abuse and then we can only hope for the best.

This is a trainwreck destined to happen…im calling it.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Astral Projections.7320:

Is there really any reason to make public who the forum specialist are since they mostly are there to report back to ANet? I don’t see why someone needs a tag for that. Having a tag opens up possibilities of them being constantly harassed about being white knights and ANet toadies. Imo, it would be better not to have people publicly labeled as being “semi official” when they have no official function other than collate information and report or linking official posts (which anyone can do).

That is a really thought-provoking comment!

What do others feel about this? I’m very interested in feedback on the subject of making specialists public or not.

If you MUST have this program go forward, make them anonymous and the moment one of them reveals that they are an FS, give them a mandatory 3 day suspension from the forum AND the game then revoke their FS status.

Since they will be used to forward comms, you’re better off scraping the idea and make your own employees spend an hour or two a day skimming through their respective forums (ex. PvP Dev Team looks through PvP forum) so they can get the info instead of having someone that is likely to be VERY biased only forwarding the info THEY like.

This should be enough reason NOT to do this FS program since you will have to have someone policing the FSs to make sure this isn’t happening. I’m pretty sure a good chunk of the community is sure you got trolled HARD with your metrics that brought about the NPE and the Gem Exchange changes that got you a LOT of NEGATIVE publicity. I don’t think you want to change something and find out it was an FS that fed you only what they wanted you to see and end up getting more negative publicity. Though in this case you could sue the FS responsible for the damages caused by their bias.

The American work day is 8 hours. A mandatory hour looking over the forums isn’t going to kill the devs. Good devs would welcome that PLUS they won’t shy away from checking the forums while munching on lunch (it is what we IT Techs do) and maybe even grab a peek at home.

To Quote the most annoying NPC from Tyria:

“This won’t end well.”

Most applications are already in, I’m sure.

Again, as an applicant, I would want to use the same account I do now, regardless of whether or not I get a special banner or tag. I’m not worried about harassment in-game as I know how the “block” function works, but I am willing to have conversations.

I applied for the position to represent a segment of the community that I love (Necromancers), not because I’d get recognition (I already have plenty of that here). I get recognition, great! I’m anonymous? All right!

Truthfully, after reading some of the posts I think whether are not these people are formally known to the forum, they should have a different name. The name Forum Specialist seems to give some the idea that these people will have moderating abilities, even though their duties were clearly spelled out in this thread. Some people are going to believe that every time they get an infraction it’s because a Forum Specialist on a power trip is after them.

Maybe something like Volunteer Information Gatherer.

Thank you Gaile for your responses!!!

Although I am a forum frequenter, and do tend to lean more toward the “white knight” side of things, and feel the game is doing rather well, and do “defend” against unmerited attacks about how much the game is broken and dying, I won’t be applying.

I do agree with others, that is a special tag is made it will be a target for those who have a “bone to pick”. However, if the specialists just had a specialist tag that just says WvW specialist or Lore specialist, without their own account names, that would reduce the amount of hate mail they recieve and still be able to serve their function. Anything else is an invite to be trolled.

I do like the idea, although many of the more vocal and well respected members are unwilling or unable due to the restrictions.

Making the “Forum Specialists” have something unique to make them stand out on the forums is just going to cause a conflict of interest. On Battle.Net, the MVPs there (essentially Forum Specialists) have their post text in green instead of blue, making them stand out. Thus, some players want to become MVPs just to get the green text; not to actually be helpful.

It also makes them very big targets.

pdavis.8031:

Thank you Gaile for your responses!!!

Although I am a forum frequenter, and do tend to lean more toward the “white knight” side of things, and feel the game is doing rather well, and do “defend” against unmerited attacks about how much the game is broken and dying, I won’t be applying.

I do agree with others, that is a special tag is made it will be a target for those who have a “bone to pick”. However, if the specialists just had a specialist tag that just says WvW specialist or Lore specialist, without their own account names, that would reduce the amount of hate mail they recieve and still be able to serve their function. Anything else is an invite to be trolled.

I do like the idea, although many of the more vocal and well respected members are unwilling or unable due to the restrictions.

I like that, a tag that’s about their specialty. That might take care of most of the problems with naming them and lets people know when what they say is more relevant and when it’s not.

Anet might want to post a sticky thread when this begins outlining what they can and can’t do for those who need the information pointed out to them.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Astral Projections.7320:

Is there really any reason to make public who the forum specialist are since they mostly are there to report back to ANet? I don’t see why someone needs a tag for that. Having a tag opens up possibilities of them being constantly harassed about being white knights and ANet toadies. Imo, it would be better not to have people publicly labeled as being “semi official” when they have no official function other than collate information and report or linking official posts (which anyone can do).

That is a really thought-provoking comment!

What do others feel about this? I’m very interested in feedback on the subject of making specialists public or not.

a bit indiferent, legal reason made most pple cant apply, and the program is not on other “official” forum’s language anyway.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Astral Projections.7320:

Is there really any reason to make public who the forum specialist are since they mostly are there to report back to ANet? I don’t see why someone needs a tag for that. Having a tag opens up possibilities of them being constantly harassed about being white knights and ANet toadies. Imo, it would be better not to have people publicly labeled as being “semi official” when they have no official function other than collate information and report or linking official posts (which anyone can do).

That is a really thought-provoking comment!

What do others feel about this? I’m very interested in feedback on the subject of making specialists public or not.

I post very seldom since I stopped playing the game, but I do have a small bit of experience as unpaid forum help in other situations so I thought I would post here. In the past I felt that having the tag made me a target to other disgruntled forum users. I always felt that my efforts were appreciated by the developers but almost never felt that my diligence and effort were appreciated by my peers on the forums. Not having any tag or designation would probably be a good thing for those involved in the program.

This is all fine and dandy (after all, the devs don’t have time to dig through hundreds of pages to weed out ‘contructive posts’ from the rest), but the entire idea first begs the question, or rather a clarification of a self-contradicting phenonenom commonly noted in controversial threads – are the forums representative (enough) of the playerbase to warrant all the effort put into this?
After all, based on official statements over the span of time, it is but 1% of total playerbase that posts, and less than 10% that actually reads.
In the same breath, however, these same forums are touted as the main source of player input for the devs (the closest thing to a PTR, if you will), with this initiative being the first tangible ‘proof’ of Anet’s interest to consolidate and make something of all the ‘constructive feedback’.

So, are the forums not representative enough (common argument against negative feedback), or are they actually a pretty good and accurate source of information as regards ‘constructive feedback’.
Moreover, defining exactly what Anet understands under ‘contructive’ would perhaps in place, too, because different people find different things constructive (I, for example, find the thread on Lost Potential really constructive).

Oh yea, the forum slave…specialists shouldn’t get any special tags, as they don’t have any special rights or powers (on paper, at least).

KarlaGrey.5903:

This is all fine and dandy (after all, the devs don’t have time to dig through hundreds of pages to weed out ‘contructive posts’ from the rest), but the entire idea first begs the question, or rather a clarification of a self-contradicting phenonenom commonly noted in controversial threads – are the forums representative (enough) of the playerbase to warrant all the effort put into this?
After all, based on official statements over the span of time, it is but 1% of total playerbase that posts…

I would say that those 1% of the player base propably still outweighs Anet employees in playing hours by a margin, so they should be a considerable source of feedback.

KarlaGrey.5903:

This is all fine and dandy (after all, the devs don’t have time to dig through hundreds of pages to weed out ‘cosntructive posts’ from the rest), but the entire idea first begs the question,

You’re using that wrong. You want the phrase “raises the question”. No, I really did have to correct you on that – “begging the question” is an entirely different thing. No matter what it means colloquially.

or rather a clarification of a self-contradicting phenonenom commonly noted in controversial threads – are the forums representative (enough) of the playerbase to warrant all the effort put into this?

Given some of them put all the efforts into the CDI project, enough to try to give it its own subforum for visibility? I think the answer is evident by actions taken, let alone this program being kicked around.

After all, based on official statements over the span of time, it is but 1% of total playerbase that posts, and less than 10% that actually reads.

Importantly, it’s not as if 1-10% is an insignificant amount of players. Though that brings to mind the concern – if those are accurate assessments, doesn’t that tell us what the playerbase count is? Just reverse the math based on the “1% actually posts on the forums” and you get an idea of what the size of the player base is.

But that’s just as silly as the “vocal minority” issue anyway. Which is why I try not to use it as a part of my arguments – only “the ones here don’t speak for everyone” which is more accurate than pulling percents out of . . . we’ll be charitable and say “thin air”.

KarlaGrey.5903:

This is all fine and dandy (after all, the devs don’t have time to dig through hundreds of pages to weed out ‘contructive posts’ from the rest), but the entire idea first begs the question, or rather a clarification of a self-contradicting phenonenom commonly noted in controversial threads – are the forums representative (enough) of the playerbase to warrant all the effort put into this?
After all, based on official statements over the span of time, it is but 1% of total playerbase that posts, and less than 10% that actually reads.
In the same breath, however, these same forums are touted as the main source of player input for the devs (the closest thing to a PTR, if you will), with this initiative being the first tangible ‘proof’ of Anet’s interest to consolidate and make something of all the ‘constructive feedback’.

So, are the forums not representative enough (common argument against negative feedback), or are they actually a pretty good and accurate source of information as regards ‘constructive feedback’.
Moreover, defining exactly what Anet understands under ‘contructive’ would perhaps in place, too, because different people find different things constructive (I, for example, find the thread on Lost Potential really constructive).

Oh yea, the forum slave…specialists shouldn’t get any special tags, as they don’t have any special rights or powers (on paper, at least).

Just because people post on the forums doesn’t mean they experience the game differently than non posters or that their opinions aren’t the same as a percentage of the non posting players.

Wanze.8410:

I would say that those 1% of the player base propably still outweighs Anet employees in playing hours by a margin, so they should be a considerable source of feedback.

This would an obvious clue as to why ANet keeps screwing up and listening to metrics.

They don’t play their game like we do. They get to play it privately with a few invitees to help test new content instead of going knee deep into the wild and actually playing the content. Watching it does not count.

They need to play this game in different configurations too. Some players only have a vanilla keyboard and mouse, some have gaming keyboards and mice, some have one or the other, some use Ventrillo/Team Speak, some don’t.

ANet wouldn’t need Forum Specialists if they actually played their game without their “Developer God Modes” turned on.

I didn’t even know this existed! Definitely applied, I love helping out in the Guardian section, very passionate about the class.

Astral Projections.7320:

KarlaGrey.5903:

This is all fine and dandy (after all, the devs don’t have time to dig through hundreds of pages to weed out ‘contructive posts’ from the rest), but the entire idea first begs the question, or rather a clarification of a self-contradicting phenonenom commonly noted in controversial threads – are the forums representative (enough) of the playerbase to warrant all the effort put into this?
After all, based on official statements over the span of time, it is but 1% of total playerbase that posts, and less than 10% that actually reads.
In the same breath, however, these same forums are touted as the main source of player input for the devs (the closest thing to a PTR, if you will), with this initiative being the first tangible ‘proof’ of Anet’s interest to consolidate and make something of all the ‘constructive feedback’.

So, are the forums not representative enough (common argument against negative feedback), or are they actually a pretty good and accurate source of information as regards ‘constructive feedback’.
Moreover, defining exactly what Anet understands under ‘contructive’ would perhaps in place, too, because different people find different things constructive (I, for example, find the thread on Lost Potential really constructive).

Oh yea, the forum slave…specialists shouldn’t get any special tags, as they don’t have any special rights or powers (on paper, at least).

Just because people post on the forums doesn’t mean they experience the game differently than non posters or that their opinions aren’t the same as a percentage of the non posting players.

Indeed. Yet often times, controversial forum feedback would be subject to attempts of discreditation amongst the lines of ‘oh ignore them silly beans, it’s only the vocal minority’. Even from the official side of the communication.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

KarlaGrey.5903:

This is all fine and dandy (after all, the devs don’t have time to dig through hundreds of pages to weed out ‘cosntructive posts’ from the rest), but the entire idea first begs the question,

You’re using that wrong. You want the phrase “raises the question”. No, I really did have to correct you on that – “begging the question” is an entirely different thing. No matter what it means colloquially.

…seriously? Looks perfectly sound to me:

beg the question
1(Of a fact or action) raise a point that has not been dealt with; invite an obvious question
(source: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/beg)

beg the question
a) to make you want to ask a question that has not yet been answered
beg the question of
(source: http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/beg)

Given some of them put all the efforts into the CDI project, enough to try to give it its own subforum for visibility? I think the answer is evident by actions taken, let alone this program being kicked around.

The sheer volume of the CDI threads makes them next to useless if data cannot be processed effectively to weed out what’s ‘constructive’ and what is not. But perhaps they served a whole different purpose to start with.

Importantly, it’s not as if 1-10% is an insignificant amount of players. Though that brings to mind the concern – if those are accurate assessments, doesn’t that tell us what the playerbase count is? Just reverse the math based on the “1% actually posts on the forums” and you get an idea of what the size of the player base is.

But that’s just as silly as the “vocal minority” issue anyway. Which is why I try not to use it as a part of my arguments – only “the ones here don’t speak for everyone” which is more accurate than pulling percents out of . . . we’ll be charitable and say “thin air”.

That is a question you should be addressing at those who use said argument as an attempt to discredit forum posts. My post is merely an observation of recurring actions showing that tendency.

What is this? What are forum specialists supposed to be and who are they?

KarlaGrey.5903:

This is all fine and dandy (after all, the devs don’t have time to dig through hundreds of pages to weed out ‘contructive posts’ from the rest), but the entire idea first begs the question, or rather a clarification of a self-contradicting phenonenom commonly noted in controversial threads – are the forums representative (enough) of the playerbase to warrant all the effort put into this?
After all, based on official statements over the span of time, it is but 1% of total playerbase that posts, and less than 10% that actually reads.
In the same breath, however, these same forums are touted as the main source of player input for the devs (the closest thing to a PTR, if you will), with this initiative being the first tangible ‘proof’ of Anet’s interest to consolidate and make something of all the ‘constructive feedback’.

So, are the forums not representative enough (common argument against negative feedback), or are they actually a pretty good and accurate source of information as regards ‘constructive feedback’.
Moreover, defining exactly what Anet understands under ‘contructive’ would perhaps in place, too, because different people find different things constructive (I, for example, find the thread on Lost Potential really constructive).

Oh yea, the forum slave…specialists shouldn’t get any special tags, as they don’t have any special rights or powers (on paper, at least).

Why is this like an off/off switch? Even if only a minority of people post on the forums (which we know to be true) doesn’t mean that there are some good ideas on the forums. Creative people take good ideas from wherever they come from.

It’s like publishers slush piles…unsolicited, unagented manuscripts. Publishers get a thousand a month easy. Well over 900 of them aren’t good enough quality to even think about publishing, so they hire first readers to get rid of them. At the end of they day, they maybe get fifty manuscripts from the slush pile to look at, almost all of which will end up rejected.

Anet can set up a system with first readers to get some good ideas without making the forums the be all end all of information.

Anet will get information from a number of sources, including the forums. They also go into the game incognito and listen to our conversations, they have metrics to track player movements, they look at reddit as well.

But there’s no harm in getting input from here as well, is there?

Gaile Gray.6029:

Astral Projections.7320:

Is there really any reason to make public who the forum specialist are since they mostly are there to report back to ANet? I don’t see why someone needs a tag for that. Having a tag opens up possibilities of them being constantly harassed about being white knights and ANet toadies. Imo, it would be better not to have people publicly labeled as being “semi official” when they have no official function other than collate information and report or linking official posts (which anyone can do).

That is a really thought-provoking comment!

What do others feel about this? I’m very interested in feedback on the subject of making specialists public or not.

This is one reason i wouldn’t even consider applying for a specialist position. First off, there is nothing official about them, they are literally being dangled out as a buffer and are completely troll/vitriol food. If it was clear that they wouldn’t be singled out, i might have applied. Second is, it’s really not clear what kind of time one would need to invest, would they generate a weekly, bi-weekly, monthly breakdown?

Since this isn’t a paid position, nor does it carry any official weight, it really seems like a mostly useless program, from a players perspective. It also seems like it would be a lot of work, which most professionals would likely not have the time to volunteer.

It could be a good opportunity for some that have that kind of time, but for the most part, not being official, tagging them as specialist, seems like asking for trouble.

KarlaGrey.5903:

…seriously? Looks perfectly sound to me:

beg the question
1(Of a fact or action) raise a point that has not been dealt with; invite an obvious question
(source: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/beg)

beg the question
a) to make you want to ask a question that has not yet been answered
beg the question of
(source: http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/beg)

You’re going to make me do this? Fine

Begging the question means “assuming the conclusion (of an argument)”, a type of circular reasoning. This is an informal fallacy where the conclusion that one is attempting to prove is included in the initial premise of an argument, often in an indirect way that conceals this fact.

The term “begging the question” originated in the 16th century as a mistranslation of Latin petitio principii “assuming the initial point”. In modern vernacular usage, “to beg the question” is sometimes also used to mean “to raise the question” (as in “This begs the question of whether…”) or “to dodge the question”.

You are using it incorrectly.

The sheer volume of the CDI threads makes them next to useless if data cannot be processed effectively to weed out what’s ‘constructive’ and what is not. But perhaps they served a whole different purpose to start with.

Which, mind you, was done in some of those towards the end, with Chris specifically saying “this is what I’m looking at as a summary”. Of course, if you want to present the opinion they had a whole different purpose than what is stated . . . then you raise the question: why would you believe anything said with a red name post, if you need to look for unspoken motives?

That is a question you should be addressing at those who use said argument as an attempt to discredit forum posts. My post is merely an observation of recurring actions showing that tendency.

That wasn’t a question. It was a statement, and an observation of my own.

munkiman.3068:

This is one reason i wouldn’t even consider applying for a specialist position. First off, there is nothing official about them, they are literally being dangled out as a buffer and are completely troll/vitriol food. If it was clear that they wouldn’t be singled out, i might have applied. Second is, it’s really not clear what kind of time one would need to invest, would they generate a weekly, bi-weekly, monthly breakdown?

That first one is why I don’t consider even wanting to throw my hat into that. I have enough problems being grouped in as “sekret ANet employee”, I don’t need it to have even a little basis in fact. The second is why I seriously shook my head – I spend enough time here, and there are precious few lines of discussion I want to touch even with a ten foot pole, anymore.

Since this isn’t a paid position, nor does it carry any official weight, it really seems like a mostly useless program, from a players perspective. It also seems like it would be a lot of work, which most professionals would likely not have the time to volunteer.

So were volunteer customer service positions in other MMOs before this. Which would usually come with a recompense of some sort (usually waiving subscription fees for the period in which a player was active).

And, I’ll be honest with you, my experience doing that? Is why I have nothing but respect for the people who have to deal with us MMO players in customer service capacities. It’s why I’d send cupcakes weekly if I had the money.

It could be a good opportunity for some that have that kind of time, but for the most part, not being official, tagging them as specialist, seems like asking for trouble.

In said volunteer programs I was in there were two simple rules always followed. First, you couldn’t be on the same server as your player character. This was to prevent bumping into people you knew from your character time, and possibly might have a bias towards. Second, you would be issued an account and told to make a new name which was not readily identifiable as you to the outside world. Such as your personal character being named “Markie McScissors” and your volunteer character being named “Scott McScissors”.

Also . . . and this is important . . . everything could be logged due to being issued a company account. Everything.

So what’s a forum specialist?

Vayne.8563:

But there’s no harm in getting input from here as well, is there?

. . . I’m cautious, but I’d say “yes, there can be”.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Astral Projections.7320:

Is there really any reason to make public who the forum specialist are since they mostly are there to report back to ANet? I don’t see why someone needs a tag for that. Having a tag opens up possibilities of them being constantly harassed about being white knights and ANet toadies. Imo, it would be better not to have people publicly labeled as being “semi official” when they have no official function other than collate information and report or linking official posts (which anyone can do).

That is a really thought-provoking comment!

What do others feel about this? I’m very interested in feedback on the subject of making specialists public or not.

I completely agree with Astral. If some people would like to contribute by compiling information from a forum and presenting it to Anet, let them do it behind the scenes. I think it would be less trouble for everyone.

If they are the type of person to answer questions anyway, then there is no need to give them a special title. Anet can say all they want that the “Specialist” doesn’t speak for them but there will always be some people who perceive that the Specialist does have some kind of special relationship with Anet. As others have said, I have seen it in other games.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

So what’s a forum specialist?

Essentially someone who has demonstrated above average knowledge of part of the game (PvP, a particular profession, WvW, dungeons, etc) and is willing to actively look for and gather good ideas in their area of interest and forward them to ANet.

@Tobias Trueflight
@KarlaGrey

Please lets not derail the thread with a discussion of the English language and proper uses of phrases. Karla did make her point, even if there is a disagreement of phrasing. Lets just leave it at that. Thanks!

LucosTheDutch.4819:

So what’s a forum specialist?

Here you go: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Guild-Wars-2-Forum-Specialists-Program/first#post4600059

Good luck.