Guild Wars 2

I hate it when people say forum users are the minority of the community.

We aren’t. Anyone who knows about maths and sampling knows that forum goers provide a snapshot of the community and what we say reflects generally the feelings of the whole player base.

I know forum users = self selected sample so we arent totally reliable for feedback but that doesnt mean the people here and on other forums culminate to be a minority. It doesnt.

ever heard of sampling? or electoral college?

(this is in support of the OP)

I agree, most people I meet in game are aware of the forums and use them. Through the years more people have started using gaming forums to express their concerns.

Not really, any game has more than one target demographic, or sub-demographics. The argument that forumites do not represent the large base demographic is not proven but is an entirely valid possibility.

When Apple opened a feedback department, it receives a overwhelming majority of complaints. Clearly, that’s how the majority of people felt about Apple.

btw, i agree with OP, just wondering how people would respond to that.

Sky.7610:

When Apple opened a feedback department, it receives a overwhelming majority of complaints. Clearly, that’s how the majority of people felt about Apple.

btw, i agree with OP, just wondering how people would respond to that.

1, Thats why I said the general feeling across many different forums (official, reddit, fansites)

2, Forums are slightly different to direct feedback although you are right in that these official forums will be more negative than other forums. Collectively they are good though.

Lordrosicky.5813:

I hate it when people say forum users are the minority of the community.

We aren’t. Anyone who knows about maths and sampling knows that forum goers provide a snapshot of the community and what we say reflects generally the feelings of the whole player base.

I know forum users = self selected sample so we arent totally reliable for feedback but that doesnt mean the people here and on other forums culminate to be a minority. It doesnt.

Obviously I don’t have the numbers, but the technically, the forum users are a minority because we are a (I am just assuming here) a small percentage of the population.

Your topic is misleading because the point you’re trying to make is that this minority is representative of the entire population. Not the fact that forums users are NOT the minority.

Lordrosicky.5813:

I hate it when people say forum users are the minority of the community.

We aren’t. Anyone who knows about maths and sampling knows that forum goers provide a snapshot of the community and what we say reflects generally the feelings of the whole player base.

I know forum users = self selected sample so we arent totally reliable for feedback but that doesnt mean the people here and on other forums culminate to be a minority. It doesnt.

Most of the forum users are ex beta players and GW1 fans from a quick cursory glance over at things, that is not a sampling of the open community at large.

2 million + accounts.

Fewer than 1 million forums users

Therefore a minority. Cuz that’s what it means.

Ditton.3149:

Lordrosicky.5813:

I hate it when people say forum users are the minority of the community.

We aren’t. Anyone who knows about maths and sampling knows that forum goers provide a snapshot of the community and what we say reflects generally the feelings of the whole player base.

I know forum users = self selected sample so we arent totally reliable for feedback but that doesnt mean the people here and on other forums culminate to be a minority. It doesnt.

Most of the forum users are ex beta players and GW1 fans from a quick cursory glance over at things, that is not a sampling of the open community at large.

The people who actually come to forum are the people who share their feedbacks about the game positively or negatively. those “who enjoy the game and play it and never bother the forums” are those who either mindlessly play the game or just plainly apathetic.

Sky.7610:

When Apple opened a feedback department, it receives a overwhelming majority of complaints. Clearly, that’s how the majority of people felt about Apple.

btw, i agree with OP, just wondering how people would respond to that.

Well they are dropping in market share so…and I imagine they are continuing to drop in market share. Apple was wise to open a feedback department where they listen and act. Eventually fire people like the guy in charge of the map department. I haven’t heard anyone getting fired for the DR idea yet.

Straight up response to nothing but the topic title:

Yes we are. By sampling the feedback you get from us someone can get a relatively decent idea about where the community stands in-game (i.e. 50/50 whether Fractals of the Mist is fun or the worst thing that could have happened to the game). However, we are an extreme minority. The game sold 2 million copies in its first week or so. There are nowhere near 1 million players actively posting in the forums.

Now if you want to discuss whether we constitute the majority of Important Opinions, that’s a different story.

Lordrosicky.5813:

I hate it when people say forum users are the minority of the community.

We aren’t. Anyone who knows about maths and sampling knows that forum goers provide a snapshot of the community and what we say reflects generally the feelings of the whole player base.

I know forum users = self selected sample so we arent totally reliable for feedback but that doesnt mean the people here and on other forums culminate to be a minority. It doesnt.

(1) Forum users are literally a minority of the community. Sampling doesn’t change that. I’d estimate that the number of people who regularly post to the forums is less than 5% of the player base, maybe as low as 0.3%. Intermittent posters will be under 10%, maybe as low as 1%. Players who read the forums even intermittently will be under 25%, maybe as low as 3%. Anet have stats on the number of user accounts, and user accounts with more than two posts; they can presumably confirm this.

(2) Forum users are not a representative sample of the community by any means, in that they are ridiculously strongly self-selected along precisely the lines that invalidate their opinion. They are by definition the players most invested in the game; they are by definition players dissatisfied with some aspect of the game (or else they’d just play it); they are players who crave the attention of others, who have a lot of free time, who are accustomed to engaging socially on forums, and who are willing to expose their opinions to the general public. That is to say, they may be as little as 0.3% of the community but they’ll almost certainly capture at least 60% of those with a strong problem with the game.

So what I’m saying is, these are safe and logical deductions from forum content:
(a) If any users anywhere have a problem with the game, it is probably represented on the forums.
(b) If a problem is not strongly represented on the forums, it is probably not bothering anyone.
© If the forums as a whole are more or less content, the game is probably in good shape.

The following are not safe deductions:
(a) If a problem is on the forums, that many players outside the forums care about it or are even aware of it.
(b) That if the forums by and large have an opinion, that this is representative of the opinions of players outside the forums.

Lordrosicky.5813:

I hate it when people say forum users are the minority of the community.

That’s too bad, because it’s true. It’s been true of pretty much every game. Most users of software including games don’t even SIGN UP for the forums, much less post.

Forum response is an awful gauge of reality. It always has been.

I don’t think your claim is very well supported. You just point out that neither side has any real proof.
More importantly however, I think your claim is irrelevant to the major concern at hand.

Usually, when people are talking about the forum goers being the minority, they are referring to the many complaints this forum sees. The backup for this argument is that people simply DO NOT post if they are content. Even if they are ecstatically happy, they probably won’t come to the official forums to mention such. However, if something is bothering that person, they are most certainly going to want to get their voice heard on the matter. Content people on the other hand, even those who go on the forums, such as myself, won’t bother adding to those threads most of the time, as a simple “I’m cool with it” doesn’t add helpful discussion.

alcopaul.2156:

Ditton.3149:

Lordrosicky.5813:

I hate it when people say forum users are the minority of the community.

We aren’t. Anyone who knows about maths and sampling knows that forum goers provide a snapshot of the community and what we say reflects generally the feelings of the whole player base.

I know forum users = self selected sample so we arent totally reliable for feedback but that doesnt mean the people here and on other forums culminate to be a minority. It doesnt.

Most of the forum users are ex beta players and GW1 fans from a quick cursory glance over at things, that is not a sampling of the open community at large.

The people who actually come to forum are the people who share their feedbacks about the game positively or negatively. those “who enjoy the game and play it and never bother the forums” are those who either mindlessly play the game or just plainly apathetic.

Which by definition and operative function makes the forum not a stratified sampling like the OP makes it want to be.

mulch.2586:

2 million + accounts.

Fewer than 1 million forums users

Therefore a minority. Cuz that’s what it means.

Pretty simple really. /thread

Aoshi.4785:

mulch.2586:

2 million + accounts.

Fewer than 1 million forums users

Therefore a minority. Cuz that’s what it means.

Pretty simple really. /thread

do you have to eat all the fishes in the sea to know what fish tastes like?

you just need to eat one to 2 fishes.

You have to think about what brings people to the forums. If it were random then yes forum goers would be a legitimate sample size. But I don’t think it is. I think people are more likely to go on the forums to complain rather than praise the game.

The thing is, people don’t usually pay attention when something is working great.

Here’s an example. When the game still had a large number of bots running around it was the topic of every other thread on these forums. People just wouldn’t shut up about it. And now that the bots are gone? There were a couple of thank yous but definitely not every other topic was about how nice it was to play and not encounter bots.

When something is working we have silence, when something is broken every single person feels the need to point it out with their own thread.

Conclusion: Whether you are the minority or the true sample of the whole community it doesn’t matter. The forums will by default always have more complaints than any other topic.

alcopaul.2156:

The people who actually come to forum are the people who share their feedbacks about the game positively or negatively. those “who enjoy the game and play it and never bother the forums” are those who either mindlessly play the game or just plainly apathetic.

My wife plays the game and enjoys it yet will never come to these or any other forum. Is she mindless or plainly apathetic? my 8 year old son has an account, he really enjoys the game yet will never come to these or any other forums. He plainly must be mindless or apathetic.

GRRR….so much I want to say yet don’t want to get infracted for speaking my mind on this….

DarksunG.9537:

Lordrosicky.5813:

I hate it when people say forum users are the minority of the community.

That’s too bad, because it’s true. It’s been true of pretty much every game. Most users of software including games don’t even SIGN UP for the forums, much less post.

Forum response is an awful gauge of reality. It always has been.

You are right. Political parties do this badly. They get feedback from the people that go to their rallies and events, and try to create their plans from those people. Of course those people do not come anywhere close to representing their nation as a whole. Forum communities are the same way, they are the most rabid (love or hate) users and as such are a horrible gauge.

alcopaul.2156:

Aoshi.4785:

mulch.2586:

2 million + accounts.

Fewer than 1 million forums users

Therefore a minority. Cuz that’s what it means.

Pretty simple really. /thread

do you have to eat all the fishes in the sea to know what fish tastes like?

you just need to eat one to 2 fishes.

Still has nothing to do with the word “minority”.

I am not saying that the forum users like us are the ones giving the devs the most feedback, that should be uncontested and not sure why anyone would think otherwise.

But it says it right in the title that forum users aren’t the minority, and uh…yeah, we are.

EDIT Ah crap you got me. I will let this burn instead of editing it out, as a token of my defeat, and to say “Well played, sir. Well played indeed…”

GregT.4702:

alcopaul.2156:

do you have to eat all the fishes in the sea to know what fish tastes like?

you just need to eat one to 2 fishes.

I was going to blast this and then I realised you were being sarcastic.
Good show. Well trolled.

The quote implies that i can take 1 player from say 1.6 million players who don’t go to forums and enjoy the game, get his opinion and that one’s players opinion is enough to represent those 1.6 million people’s opinions.

alcopaul.2156:

GregT.4702:

alcopaul.2156:

do you have to eat all the fishes in the sea to know what fish tastes like?

you just need to eat one to 2 fishes.

I was going to blast this and then I realised you were being sarcastic.
Good show. Well trolled.

The quote implies that i can take 1 player from say 1.6 million players who don’t go to forums and enjoy the game, get his opinion and that one’s players opinion is enough to represent those 1.6 million people’s opinions.

Yes, I know. Which is patently ridiculous.
It would make elections a lot cheaper to run if it were true, though. :-(

GregT.4702:

alcopaul.2156:

GregT.4702:

alcopaul.2156:

do you have to eat all the fishes in the sea to know what fish tastes like?

you just need to eat one to 2 fishes.

I was going to blast this and then I realised you were being sarcastic.
Good show. Well trolled.

The quote implies that i can take 1 player from say 1.6 million players who don’t go to forums and enjoy the game, get his opinion and that one’s players opinion is enough to represent those 1.6 million people’s opinions.

Yes, I know. Which is patently ridiculous.
It would make elections a lot cheaper to run if it were true, though. :-(

It doesn’t matter whether you think it is true or not. Since apparently the “silent majority” doesn’t care to get their votes in, you have one of three choices:

A ) Listen to the “vocal minority” who are actually giving their feedback, and base it on that, since the ‘silent majority’ isn’t bothered you give you any feedback to work with at all
B ) Do what most players here seem to do and take wild, completely uneducated and totally baseless assumptions as to what the “silent majority” wants since they aren’t here to represent themselves (and coincidentally the “silent majority”’s point of view is ALWAYS argued to be in favor of whatever said poster personally believes) and base everything on that.
C ) Not give a crap what ANY of the players, silent or vocal, want and just do whatever you think makes you the most money (the approach A-net is currently using).

The “silent majority” will never give its feedback unless forced via log in polls, and since those keep getting shot down whenever suggested it leaves you in a situation where you can either listen to the “vocal minority” as the representative group of players, or just ignore ALL players and do whatever the crap you feel like.

While forum users are a minority, most people who use it as an argument are using a logical fallacy

That is, they assume that everyone who is not posting on the forums, must not have the same mindset as those on the forums. Or that the forums does not indicate in any way the overall mindset of the larger population.

Forum posters are a minority. But it doesnt mean that our viewpoints and complaints are not indicative of what the majority of GW2 players also believe.

Zenyatoo.4059:

While forum users are a minority, most people who use it as an argument are using a logical fallacy

That is, they assume that everyone who is not posting on the forums, must not have the same mindset as those on the forums. Or that the forums does not indicate in any way the overall mindset of the larger population.

Forum posters are a minority. But it doesnt mean that our viewpoints and complaints are not indicative of what the majority of GW2 players also believe.

True, but it it doesn’t mean they are indicative either.

Medazolam.3058:

Zenyatoo.4059:

While forum users are a minority, most people who use it as an argument are using a logical fallacy

That is, they assume that everyone who is not posting on the forums, must not have the same mindset as those on the forums. Or that the forums does not indicate in any way the overall mindset of the larger population.

Forum posters are a minority. But it doesnt mean that our viewpoints and complaints are not indicative of what the majority of GW2 players also believe.

True, but it it doesn’t mean they are indicative either.

Thus returning to what I said above. Since the majority refuses to voice their opinion, you can either base your feedback on the minority who does, or just ignore ALL feedback and do whatever the crap you want, purely under the assumption that if your entire playerbase doesn’t quit overnight when you do something, it must be a good change.

The silent majority have already left this game, assuming we have 1 million players that would mean on average a bit over 19k players per server. (Assuming 52 servers)

Now from what I have observed, there is nothing close to 19k players on any server that I have played on.

The 1 million player count assumes half the players that purchased the game have already dropped it.

We are a minority, but we are most definitively also qualified to be a representative sample. Yes, more often than not people come to the forums to complain, but that doesn’t mean we all complain about the same things. Just take the ascended gear as an example, there were a few complaints before it that their was no “endgame content” and afterwards we had a lot of complaints about vertical progression. Based on that we can easily assume that more people have a problem with vertical progression than with the lack of endgame content.

Forum user’s are important, the post a lot of trash, but they also reflect the community’s opinion very well.

Tolmos.8395:

Medazolam.3058:

Zenyatoo.4059:

While forum users are a minority, most people who use it as an argument are using a logical fallacy

That is, they assume that everyone who is not posting on the forums, must not have the same mindset as those on the forums. Or that the forums does not indicate in any way the overall mindset of the larger population.

Forum posters are a minority. But it doesnt mean that our viewpoints and complaints are not indicative of what the majority of GW2 players also believe.

True, but it it doesn’t mean they are indicative either.

Thus returning to what I said above. Since the majority refuses to voice their opinion, you can either base your feedback on the minority who does, or just ignore ALL feedback and do whatever the crap you want, purely under the assumption that if your entire playerbase doesn’t quit overnight when you do something, it must be a good change.

Or ArenaNet could gather metrics to see what the majority of players are doing while playing the game…

Forum feedback is useful, but it needs to be treated with a grain of salt, as there is no way of determining how representative it is of the total player base due to the self-selecting nature of the participants.

nofo.8469:

The silent majority have already left this game, assuming we have 1 million players that would mean on average a bit over 19k players per server. (Assuming 52 servers)

Now from what I have observed, there is nothing close to 19k players on any server that I have played on.

The 1 million player count assumes half the players that purchased the game have already dropped it.

You can observe every section of every server at ever second of the game? That is a pretty cool ability to have.

The vocal minority likes to think they speak for everybody, but I am sorry to say we here on the forums do not speak for everybody.

Tolmos.8395:

It doesn’t matter whether you think it is true or not. Since apparently the “silent majority” doesn’t care to get their votes in, you have one of three choices:

A ) Listen to the “vocal minority” …
B ) Do what most players here seem to do …
C ) Not give a crap what ANY of the players …

There’s at least one additional option:
D) Ask all the players, and if needed repeat until you got answers from the majority.

Probably there are other options, given that there’s a lot of studies about the possibility to get meaningful results from surveys.

Astraea.6075:

Or ArenaNet could gather metrics to see what the majority of players are doing while playing the game…

Those metrics would be useless cause they wouldn’t tell whether players are doing those things cause they like them or because they have to do them to actually get to the fun content.

nachtnebel.9168:

Astraea.6075:

Or ArenaNet could gather metrics to see what the majority of players are doing while playing the game…

Those metrics would be useless cause they wouldn’t tell whether players are doing those things cause they like them or because they have to do them to actually get to the fun content.

What do you have to do in GW2 to get to fun content? There are no dungeons leading to dungeons. There are no small raids leading to bigger raids. Unless of course you mean the game itself. I suppose you could say people are FORCED to slog through the beginning zones to move to higher leveled zones.

nachtnebel.9168:

Astraea.6075:

Or ArenaNet could gather metrics to see what the majority of players are doing while playing the game…

Those metrics would be useless cause they wouldn’t tell whether players are doing those things cause they like them or because they have to do them to actually get to the fun content.

Its pretty obvious you’ve never done market research or conducted a psychographic / behavioral study of consumers. That kind of information, actual in-game behavior, is a gold mine, not ‘useless.’

From surveys, forums and the like you get qualitative, ‘claimed’ behavior. From in-game activities you get quantitative, actual behavior. One is not ‘better’ than the other, they each have their pros and cons from a research and statistical POV. That’s why you bash them both together to get a fuller picture of your audience behavior and motivations.

you can sample a minority of a population and still get a good sampling of the whole. however in this case with the forum population, you WONT get a good sampling of all players that play the game.

because the majority of players who are playing the game and don’t have any issues won’t be making posts on the forums. as evidence by the overwhelming negative posts on ANY forums of ANY game.

Oh my. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a terrible use of statistics or math to support an argument outside of a political campaign.

The forum users, a vocal group, are still a minority of the playerbase.

What’s more: people who are satisfied rarely post to the forums. They are too busy playing the game, and it’s human nature to not give much feedback for a product that you are satisfied with. I always make a point of letting the floor manager know when my wait staff at a restaurant that I am eating at does a great job; I frequently hear that such feedback is rare and greatly appreciated.

As for me, I’m very satisfied with GW2. I like the concept of Ascended gear, though I recognize that the implementation needs work; but then again, so does ArenaNet. I enjoy the leveling process and don’t stress when I’m in a lightly-populated zone and cannot complete a group event because there are so many other Dynamic Events out there. I think the classes all play pretty well but recognize that there is room for improvement.

I’ve mentioned things like this a few times, but I’ve been largely shouted down by angry, disgruntled people who should probably move on to a different game. I have had constructive discussions with rational people who enjoy the game and want to see it succeed but disagree with design decisions; however, these kinds of interactions are not the norm.

As a result, I post increasingly less frequently. I would be concerned, but to be honest it seems like all MMO communities are like this. Even WoW — an incredibly successful MMO with a mind-bogglingly large player base that obviously enjoys the game — has forums that are rife with little but complaints and anger.

Tolmos.8395:

It doesn’t matter whether you think it is true or not. Since apparently the “silent majority” doesn’t care to get their votes in, you have one of three choices:

(etc)

Anet should do (and I hope does) what any other company does.
(a) Listen to and be aware of what’s happening on the forums (anecdotal evidence);
(b) Use their analytics, customer polls, and other professional market data (statistical evidence); and
© Remember that they’re the ones who are paid to use their own experience and talent to make the game, that methods (a) and (b) are supposed to inform their decisions, not override them, and then make bold, imaginative new content and stand by their creation.

The problem with this thread has been everyone confusing anecdotal evidence with statstical evidence. There is a place for both kinds of evidence in decision making, but you can’t will one into being the other no matter how hard you want it.

The Forums for the most part seem to be filled with immature posts of self entitled nonsense. They are full of demands and people making it seems as though they are the end all of the game life if their demands do not get met. Then you have the other half that are actually trying to share information but, come on read the TOPICS in general discussion it is a whine fest…nothing but nonstop whining and complaining and it is sicking really. I agree with the poster named Tiresias.6473 the game is AWESOME and I am having a blast and everything that is complained about in the forums seem really superficial and again only things self entitled people have issues with. The way the community is acting the company may be scared to do anything for fear of backlash.

Lordrosicky.5813:

I hate it when people say forum users are the minority of the community.

We aren’t. Anyone who knows about maths and sampling knows that forum goers provide a snapshot of the community and what we say reflects generally the feelings of the whole player base.

I know forum users = self selected sample so we arent totally reliable for feedback but that doesnt mean the people here and on other forums culminate to be a minority. It doesnt.

I wouldn’t use minority as a reason to take the forum with a pinch of salt, I would instead say that generally people come to MMO forums to complain, far more than people come to MMO forums to congratulate. Therefore it is more often than not a specific subset of the community. It would be like asking only homeless people who should run the country and then using their answers to represent the entire population.

Ualtar.5047:

nofo.8469:

The silent majority have already left this game, assuming we have 1 million players that would mean on average a bit over 19k players per server. (Assuming 52 servers)

Now from what I have observed, there is nothing close to 19k players on any server that I have played on.

The 1 million player count assumes half the players that purchased the game have already dropped it.

You can observe every section of every server at ever second of the game? That is a pretty cool ability to have.

The vocal minority likes to think they speak for everybody, but I am sorry to say we here on the forums do not speak for everybody.

I disagree on the forums being a good source of community opinion just like you. It is however a good source of information on what people have issues with.

But are you seriously trying to tell me that you think servers have 19k+ active players on average? You don’t need to observe every section of every server at every second to realise how unlikely this is.

Do you know what causes companies to do a large turn around in their design direction for a game after launch?

I know alot of people who play the game but stay away from the official forums due to the massive amount of QQ.

penatbater.4710:

I know alot of people who play the game but stay away from the official forums due to the massive amount of QQ.

Or the complete opposite in the massive amount of brown nosing.

Astraea.6075:

Or ArenaNet could gather metrics to see what the majority of players are doing while playing the game…
.

That’s the most inaccurate way to measure it for sure. Take right now- even those of us who despise fractals are doing them simply because it is the best (or rather, only atm) way to get ascended gear.

Players will constantly migrate towards whatever the best method is, not always what the most fun is. In the end, the only way that metric could show player dislike over something would be if they stopped playing. And deciding that something is fun and accepted simply because the playerbase didn’t quit overnight hardly seems like an efficient way to do things.

Talyjta.9081:

There’s at least one additional option:
D) Ask all the players, and if needed repeat until you got answers from the majority.

Probably there are other options, given that there’s a lot of studies about the possibility to get meaningful results from surveys.

That would be outstanding if it were doable. There are games that force a survey question or poll question at login, and I personally would be all for it… but that sort of thing gets shot down whenever it is brought up on these and other modern MMO forums

Chorel.1720:

penatbater.4710:

I know alot of people who play the game but stay away from the official forums due to the massive amount of QQ.

Or the complete opposite in the massive amount of brown nosing.

This. I understand being a fanboy as much as the next MMOer, but some people take it extremely far in the “my game can do no wrong” viewpoint.

[/quote]

“who enjoy the game and play it and never bother the forums” are those who either mindlessly play the game or just plainly apathetic.

[/quote]

I do love well constructed un biased responses .

Your wording destroys the point you were attempting to make .

Tolmos.8395:

Astraea.6075:

Or ArenaNet could gather metrics to see what the majority of players are doing while playing the game…
.

That’s the most inaccurate way to measure it for sure. Take right now- even those of us who despise fractals are doing them simply because it is the best (or rather, only atm) way to get ascended gear.

Players will constantly migrate towards whatever the best method is, not always what the most fun is. In the end, the only way that metric could show player dislike over something would be if they stopped playing. And deciding that something is fun and accepted simply because the playerbase didn’t quit overnight hardly seems like an efficient way to do things.

It’s not inaccurate. What these metrics are often missing is the context behind the player’s actions.

My main point however is that is possible for ArenaNet to find out what the majority of players who don’t visit the forums are doing. Combining this with feedback from the forums (and other channels) helps to give them a better idea of what the player base enjoys or dislikes (or feels “forced to do”).

Tolmos.8395:

In the end, the only way that metric could show player dislike over something would be if they stopped playing. And deciding that something is fun and accepted simply because the playerbase didn’t quit overnight hardly seems like an efficient way to do things.

You, my friend, do not understand metrics. :-)

Assuming Anet gathers anywhere near as much information as, say, Valve (and they should) then they gather statistics on things like “last activity before log-off”, “first activity after log-in”, “activities repeated immediately upon completion”, “amount of chat interaction during activity”, “variety of skill use during activity”, “mouse-look variety during activity”.

They can use this, across a vast number of players, to determine which activities are probably triggering people to log-off (or take a break), which activities are prompting people to log in, which activites are producing repetitive (grindy) gameplay and which ones are promoting experimentation and exploration. They can tell which activities you talk about to your friends (although it might be harder to tell whether you’re griping or being enthused). And they can profile you to determine your player type and then see which activities are only being engaged in by high-end players and aren’t attracting casuals, and vice versa.

If you think metrics can’t be used to get a pretty good map of where the “fun” is in the game, you need to do more reading on statistics, analytics, and game design.

Sender.7958:

Its pretty obvious you’ve never done market research or conducted a psychographic / behavioral study of consumers. That kind of information, actual in-game behavior, is a gold mine, not ‘useless.’

If the market research sector really thinks of that kind of data as a gold mine then I know why games keep getting worse. Log files of what people have done doesn’t tell you anything about what they want to do. Running 20 fractals per day doesn’t necessary mean that that player likes the dungeon, he could just want the 20 slot bags or is maybe hoping for a good ring to drop.

In-game activities don’t tell you anything unless you can link them to a players motivation, which you can’t get from just evaluating log files, you have to actually talk to him.

nachtnebel.9168:

If the market research sector really thinks of that kind of data as a gold mine then I know why games keep getting worse. Log files of what people have done doesn’t tell you anything about what they want to do. Running 20 fractals per day doesn’t necessary mean that that player likes the dungeon, he could just want the 20 slot bags or is maybe hoping for a good ring to drop.

In-game activities don’t tell you anything unless you can link them to a players motivation, which you can’t get from just evaluating log files, you have to actually talk to him.

If you were only sampling one player this might be an issue. But you’re sampling ~1 million players, so it’s not. If you find that players stop running a dungeon as soon as they get a 20 slot bag, then it’s a safe assumption they’re running the dungeon to GET the 20 slot bag. If, in addition to that, you find that players who already HAVE 20 slot bags don’t run the dungeon at all, then probably the dungeon is not inherently fun and it’s all about the bag.

You can also compare it to the play patterns of casuals. Casuals aren’t going to run all the dungeons, and they certainly aren’t going to grind them. Looking at which dungeons casuals DO play, and in particular the ones they repeat, gives you a pretty good idea of which ones are fun, especially if they’re different ones to those being hit by reward-motivated players.

This is all year 8 statistics stuff, guys. It’s not rocket science. A statistic by itself can be misunderstood; the more intersecting statistics you have, though, the more likely you are to have a true picture of the situation. Anet has a LOT of intersecting statistics.