Freedom to reduce listing prices on TP

Freedom to reduce listing prices on TP

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Posted by: Cry.5679

Cry.5679

Q:

Question:
Can Arenanet allows more flexibility and freedom to reduce listing prices on Trading Post?

Scenario:
I was selling a legendary a month ago and placed 200g just to list the item up. I realized I not sell it however as people has started undercut my price. My concern is that if traders would want to reduce the price, they will need to repay another 200g. This makes the system looks ridiculous as it penalize people who are selling expensive items.

Note that legendary prices are falling due to the arenanet notice and people are rushing to sell their legendary weapons they have kept. Have you guys ever wonder what happened to those who has listed the items for ages, but could not sell them out?

I did not want to completely remove the listing fees because it has its purpose. Instead, i proposed two recommendations.

1)
Solution: When players pay 5% of the item fee, they have the freedom to change the prices of their listed items, within a period of time.

Example: If I were to list a legendary at price of 3,000 gold, i pay my 300g listing fee. After a week, i can change it to 2,999 gold without paying any fees.

Benefit: It creates freedom on listing prices, and it benefits both sellers and buyers due to competitive pricing. It also prevents items listing at the trading post for ages.

Right now, the system penalizes those who list their items especially for an expensive products like legendary weapons.

2)
Solution: Set a limitation to listing fees.

Example: 5% listing fees at a ceiling of 50g.

Benefit: The purpose of a listing fee is to prevent people from treating the Trading Post like a storage space. This solution does that as well and benefits the sellers for paying ridiculous items. It also stops people from trading from mailbox which might lead to scam.
_________________________________________________________________

P.S Those who have sold expensive items will understand this. Due to the nature of fluctuation in market and high demand pricing, it is really difficult to sell it at a good price. We need to cover back our listing fees costs as well (assuming you craft the items), while buyers does not need to pay for anything while bidding. And when people starts undercutting your price, there is no way sellers can adjust your pricing. Ultimately, its a loss for sellers all the time. What Arenanet can do is to reduce the loss for sellers like us by increasing the flexibility of listing fees. Thank you

(edited by Cry.5679)

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Posted by: Toxsa.2701

Toxsa.2701

No, it’ll end up being endless competition of who are online more often and can lower the price by 1 copper constantly. This is just stupid and unfair.

You want to sell for big money? You’re bundle to the risk. You should either sell it at a much lower price so people wouldn’t afford to list lower than you later, or else face the consequence of not selling out your stuffs fast. that’s the way of the market.

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Posted by: rhapsody.3615

rhapsody.3615

Just out of curiosity.. how many others did you undercut when you listed yours? What happened to you also happened to others.

Taking the listing fee away would be bad, for the reasons stated above. You’d just come back complaining about constantly being undercut.

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Posted by: LucosTheDutch.4819

LucosTheDutch.4819

I’m torn on this. I feel the same way as Cry yet Toxsa makes a good point.

I agree that listing and relisting should always cost gold, but I do believe that the listing fee right now is way too high. I shouldn’t have to pay 200g every time I want to list or relist a legendary weapon. The fact that there is a 10% exchange fee on top of that makes it even more painful. A huge amount of gold is lost that way and honestly this game already has so many gold sinks that it doesn’t need another one.

I think the 5% listing fee would be a whole lot less painful if the 10% exchange fee didn’t exist.

So here are 2 things I propose:

1) remove the 10% exchange fee.

2) Instead of having to relist our items and having t pay the 5% listing fee again if we want to change the price of our listed item I’d like to see an option where I can change the price of my listed item for a small price. I think 1% of the price you currently listed your item for would be a reasonable amount.

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Posted by: Mea.5491

Mea.5491

This is why I sell my stuff to the highest buyer, lol.

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

Price it right, and it won’t be a problem. Sell to the highest current bid and you’ll avoid getting into that situation.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Sizer.5632

Sizer.5632

No, it’ll end up being endless competition of who are online more often and can lower the price by 1 copper constantly. This is just stupid and unfair.

So basically how buy orders work right now?

Well at least only half of our games economy is stupid.

Borolis Pass – [TOVL]
Aeneaaa – 80 engineer
Aeeneaa – 80 Ele

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Posted by: Toxsa.2701

Toxsa.2701

No, it’ll end up being endless competition of who are online more often and can lower the price by 1 copper constantly. This is just stupid and unfair.

So basically how buy orders work right now?

Well at least only half of our games economy is stupid.

Ironically buy order is always lower than sell order. If you really want to sell your stuff fast, use the buy order to instantly sell it.

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Posted by: Cazamar.7148

Cazamar.7148

Working as intended.

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Posted by: Linken.6345

Linken.6345

sounds to me you listed it to high well just have to wait untill all the others get sold and pray someone wants yours at that price aswell mate.

good luck and hope you get it sold.

Edit
I would never buy a legendary I want to find and forge my own legend

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Posted by: StinVec.3621

StinVec.3621

This is why I sell my stuff to the highest buyer, lol.

I <3 players like you!


(Removed this portion of incorrect information so as to prevent confusion and slight derailment of the thread.)

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(edited by StinVec.3621)

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Posted by: Aidan Savage.2078

Aidan Savage.2078

Stin… that’s all sorts of wrong. The listing fee is not refunded, and never has been. It’s paid “out of pocket” the moment you hit sell, whether as a sell listing or a sell now. That is why if you dont have enough money in your wallet you cannot list an item whether or not it’s to a buy order. Listing fees are a non-refundable payment taken out of cash on hand whenever you sell something. The sales tax is just that, a tax on the amount you sell something for.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

You can’t be undercut if you sell to highest offer. Any higher price you ask for trades risk for reward: there’s a chance you might be undercut and a chance you might earn more than the highest buy offer. Or in other words: I can be greedy and risk getting nothing or I can accept a sure thing for noticeably less.

Mitigating the listing fee cost ends up reducing the risk to every seller and so encourages everyone to ask for more. So the OP’s proposal is more likely to put inflationary pressure on the market and hurt the more casual traders in the long run.

When my high-priced items get undercut by so much that I despair of ever selling them, I assume that it was my fault, that I let my greed get in the way of my judgment.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

Ex.

  • Sell 1 Jute Scrap to a buy order of 1 silver
  • Subtract 5c listing fee shown (5% of 100copper (1silver) = 5c)
  • Subtract 10c sales fee shown (10% of 100copper (1silver) = 10c)
  • Projected Profit displayed = 85c (1s – 15% combined fees)
  • *Receive 90c in pick up tab. (projected profit + listing fee)

Conclusion: Listing fee is refunded when selling to a buy order.*

Wrong conclusion and it was already explained to you by Aidan.

The 5c listing fee is taken out of your wallet when you sell it, not when you pick up your money.

So when you have 1s in your wallet and sell 1 jute scrap to the highest bid of 1s, 5c (listing fee) are directly taken out of your wallet and 90 copper (sale value- sales tax) are delivered to your pickup tab.

You end up having 1.85s, 90c in the pick up tab and 95c in your wallet.
If the listing fee was refunded when selling to a buy order, you would have to get 95 copper (sales vale – sales tax + listing fee) in your pick up tab.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

(edited by Wanze.8410)

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Posted by: Garth Thurgen.1380

Garth Thurgen.1380

Stin… that’s all sorts of wrong. The listing fee is not refunded, and never has been. It’s paid “out of pocket” the moment you hit sell, whether as a sell listing or a sell now. That is why if you dont have enough money in your wallet you cannot list an item whether or not it’s to a buy order. Listing fees are a non-refundable payment taken out of cash on hand whenever you sell something. The sales tax is just that, a tax on the amount you sell something for.

No, it is not even a single kind of wrong. If you would please take note of the area where I specifically stated the fees are taken, but if you sold to a buy order then the 5% listing fee is included in the amount of coin sent to your pick up tab. This was the entire basis for the rest of my post and was referenced several times. Obviously to receive a refund one must first pay the amount to then be refunded. I never said the fee is not paid at all. This is why I used the word “refunded” several times.

You can easily test this out and see for yourself.

  • Make sure there is no coin to pick up in your pick up tab
  • Sell a single thing to a buy order after taking note of the projected profit
    (Sell Price X Quantity – Listing Fee – Sales Fee = What is shown in projected profit)
  • Note the amount sent to your pick up tab upon selling it to the buy order
    (Amount Received = Projected Profit + Listing Fee)

Ex.

  • Sell 1 Jute Scrap to a buy order of 1 silver
  • Subtract 5c listing fee shown (5% of 100copper (1silver) = 5c)
  • Subtract 10c sales fee shown (10% of 100copper (1silver) = 10c)
  • Projected Profit displayed = 85c (1s – 15% combined fees)
  • Receive 90c in pick up tab. (projected profit + listing fee)

Conclusion: Listing fee is refunded when selling to a buy order.

Think about it this way for your example:

Say you have 5c and you sell your Jute Scrap. You then have 0c in your inventory, and 90c in the Bank Tab. After taking out the 90c from the Bank Tab you have 90c in your inventory.

Now, to find your current gain from all of this just find the difference from where you are now from where you were then:

90c – 5c = 85c

So your grand total of gain is 85c, exactly as it says. If it didn’t “give you your fee back” you would be double charged for it.

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

There are currently no ways to circumvent listing fee and transaction fees. Period. If you do arbitrary tests and come to wrong conclusions, that’s not our problem.

On topic:

Both fees, the listing fee of 5% and the transaction fee of 10%, serve a purpose. You not doing reasearch on what can be expected is not the markets fault. The market shifting and you not having sold your product in time is again not the markets fault.

Hi, I was selling a legendary a month ago and placed 200g just to list the item up. I could not sell it however as people has started to list the items at price below me. At this rate I will not be able to sell off my legendary. I want to reduce the price but could not as i need to repay another 200g just to reduce the price. This makes the system looks ridiculous as it penalize people who are selling expensive items.

There is an huge gap between demand price and supply price of the legendary. I understand it is important to have the listing price. But i do hope that Arenanet can allow more freedom in the ability to make price changes in trading posts for expensive items. Additionally, i also hope to set a limit to the prices of listing to reward those who work hard and sell the items to earn some profit. I hope you guys can understand where I am coming from. Thank you very much!

[Original Poster Comment]
I think some of you misunderstood my intention. Note that legendary prices are falling due to the arenanet notice and people are rushing to sell their legendary weapons they have kept.

I did not want to completely remove the listing fees. Instead, i proposed two recommendations as stated above.

Benefit: The purpose of a listing fee is to prevent people from treating the Trading Post like a storage space. This solution does that as well and benefits the sellers for paying ridiculous items. It also stops people from trading from mailbox which might lead to scam.

Away from the game for 1 year. Legendary prices are exactly where they were 1 year ago. Confirming, the sky is not falling.

The listing fee penalizes every one the same since it’s 5% for everybody. The fact that you have to upfront more on an expensive single item has nothing to do with getting penalized more. If someone was to sell 3,000 gold worth of linen cloth they’d have to pay the same amount of listing fee.

The purpose of the listing fee is not only to prevent people using the TP as storage. It’s also to discourage unrealistic pricing and penalize it. The difference bewteen sell and buy orders is very simple. Selling to buy orders you forgo a great part of risk, hence the buyer is willing to pay less.

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Posted by: StinVec.3621

StinVec.3621

Wrong conclusion and it was already explained to you by Aidan.

The 5c listing fee is taken out of your wallet when you sell it, not when you pick up your money.

So when you have 1s in your wallet and sell 1 jute scrap to the highest bid of 1s, 5c (listing fee) are directly taken out of your wallet and 90 copper (sale value- sales tax) are delivered to your pickup tab.

You end up having 1.85s, 90c in the pick up tab and 95c in your wallet.
If the listing fee was refunded when selling to a buy order, you would have to get 95 copper (sales vale – sales tax + listing fee) in your pick up tab.

I see. Apparently I did become all sorts of confused on several aspects of the transaction process at some point. Thank you both for clarifying and setting me straight on the behavior of the system. I will be more diligent in the future with my understanding of systems before making such comments.

I suppose the removal of my incorrect comments and the resulting discussion would be in order so as to return the topic to being fully on track and prevent any confusion to other readers.

Thank you again.

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(edited by StinVec.3621)

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Posted by: Cry.5679

Cry.5679

There are currently no ways to circumvent listing fee and transaction fees. Period. If you do arbitrary tests and come to wrong conclusions, that’s not our problem.

On topic:

Both fees, the listing fee of 5% and the transaction fee of 10%, serve a purpose. You not doing reasearch on what can be expected is not the markets fault. The market shifting and you not having sold your product in time is again not the markets fault.

Hi, I was selling a legendary a month ago and placed 200g just to list the item up. I could not sell it however as people has started to list the items at price below me. At this rate I will not be able to sell off my legendary. I want to reduce the price but could not as i need to repay another 200g just to reduce the price. This makes the system looks ridiculous as it penalize people who are selling expensive items.

There is an huge gap between demand price and supply price of the legendary. I understand it is important to have the listing price. But i do hope that Arenanet can allow more freedom in the ability to make price changes in trading posts for expensive items. Additionally, i also hope to set a limit to the prices of listing to reward those who work hard and sell the items to earn some profit. I hope you guys can understand where I am coming from. Thank you very much!

[Original Poster Comment]
I think some of you misunderstood my intention. Note that legendary prices are falling due to the arenanet notice and people are rushing to sell their legendary weapons they have kept.

I did not want to completely remove the listing fees. Instead, i proposed two recommendations as stated above.

Benefit: The purpose of a listing fee is to prevent people from treating the Trading Post like a storage space. This solution does that as well and benefits the sellers for paying ridiculous items. It also stops people from trading from mailbox which might lead to scam.

Away from the game for 1 year. Legendary prices are exactly where they were 1 year ago. Confirming, the sky is not falling.

The listing fee penalizes every one the same since it’s 5% for everybody. The fact that you have to upfront more on an expensive single item has nothing to do with getting penalized more. If someone was to sell 3,000 gold worth of linen cloth they’d have to pay the same amount of listing fee.

The purpose of the listing fee is not only to prevent people using the TP as storage. It’s also to discourage unrealistic pricing and penalize it. The difference bewteen sell and buy orders is very simple. Selling to buy orders you forgo a great part of risk, hence the buyer is willing to pay less.

[Original Poster’s Comment]

Hi firstly, thanks for your comment. I understand the importance of trading fees (as stated in my first post). However, won’t you think it would be better if sellers can adjust their price accordingly to the market’s demand? Tell me what’s the disadvantage if this system is implemented?

The current Trading Post is worked as the lowest seller and highest bidder. Selling at a ridiculous price is not a problem. The problem is what happens if you want to readjust your price to suit the market’s demand? There is little flexibility for this on our current Trading Post system.

We can negotiate the price in the real world, but in trading post, we can only communicate with numbers listed on Trading Post. Readjusting prices without penalization will definitely help the sellers and buyers.

Well, some might argue that there is a price war, but that will be how our current real world economy works. Do you see your government for re-taxing things you’ve sold when you give discounts?

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Posted by: Zohane.7208

Zohane.7208

Honestly, if your listing fee alone is 200g, that means you’re selling a 4ooog item, and you really should know and fully understand how the market works when you do that. It is, always have been, and likely always will be, a tricky place to play, and I for one don’t think that this particular market segment should be made less hasardous to play in., so no thanks from me.

As for the lower price segments, the issue is most likely non-existant since the risk is much lower there.

Gunnar’s Hold
Guild Leader for Tyria Liberation Council [TLC]

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

If Anet made the change, you’ll make less money too because people will get into an undercut war.

If you dont’ want to take the risk of being undercut, you can sell your legendary 200 gold below the market price to begin with.

I’m not saying your suggestion is bad. But I’m basically saying the reason you have profit to begin with is there are no system which you can change your sell listing price at will.

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Posted by: Baldrick.8967

Baldrick.8967

I read the OP’s comments as ‘I want to be as greedy as possible and not be punished for getting it wrong’.

There’s a reason there are buy orders- so you can sell the item at a price that has zero risk. If you want to get more, then you have to take the risk that you get your price wrong, and pay the penalty.

System is working exactly as intended- if you hadn’t tried being greedy by just undercutting the last seller (yet now trying to claim the moral high ground here) in the hopes of screwing the last extra gold from a buyer, you wouldn’t be posting on here for a change to a system that is working exactly as intended.

Let’s hope a lesson has been learnt.

WvW player. Doing another world completion for my next Legendary. Hater of mini-games.

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Posted by: Palador.2170

Palador.2170

Out of curiosity, what was the actual question behind this thread?

Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.

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Posted by: Siphaed.9235

Siphaed.9235

Out of curiosity, what was the actual question behind this thread?

Apparently this player spent 200g on listing a Legendary for 2,000g (most likely undercutting others already listed). More people posted up the same Legendary at a cheaper price than his, thus his won’t sell. Now he wants the ability to change his original price without penalty or fee so that he can undercut those that undercut him.

Yes, it is as silly as it sounds.

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Posted by: Palador.2170

Palador.2170

Out of curiosity, what was the actual question behind this thread?

Apparently this player spent 200g on listing a Legendary for 2,000g (most likely undercutting others already listed). More people posted up the same Legendary at a cheaper price than his, thus his won’t sell. Now he wants the ability to change his original price without penalty or fee so that he can undercut those that undercut him.

Yes, it is as silly as it sounds.

Agreed, but there’s no actual question to this question type thread, is there? I’m not sure why they set it up as one.

Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.

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Posted by: tern.7893

tern.7893

In the real world, the Internet brought listing fees down to zero or almost zero. And guess what? The world did not end. Instead, transactions moved quickly onto the Web. Markets become more efficient. And more buyers and sellers became satisfied.

What we have in GW2 is a market failure. Lots of high-end goods are stuck simply because the sellers cannot afford or do not want to reprice them due to the exorbitant listing fees. This artificially reduces the supply, keeping prices overly high. The imbalance of power between buyer and seller also forces the latter — as some advise here — to potentially underprice their items by taking the highest buy offer.

If we abolish the listing fees instead, or turn them into into transaction fees, we immediately bring all of these items back onto the market. Sure, you will get sellers repricing every minute until they find the “correct” price. But that’s healthy and exactly what should happen. When prices are high, more sellers will compete. Then as prices decline — sometimes below cost — some sellers will leave the market, so supply falls accordingly. We eventually have what economists call an “equilibrium”.

So no, it’s not a bad thing for listing fees to be removed. For both buyers and sellers, it will make it easier to buy or sell the items you need. For Anet, my guess is that whatever losses in listing fees will be more than made up for by the increase in transactions. Just like in the real world.

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Posted by: Toxsa.2701

Toxsa.2701

In the real world, the Internet brought listing fees down to zero or almost zero. And guess what? The world did not end. Instead, transactions moved quickly onto the Web. Markets become more efficient. And more buyers and sellers became satisfied.

What we have in GW2 is a market failure. Lots of high-end goods are stuck simply because the sellers cannot afford or do not want to reprice them due to the exorbitant listing fees. This artificially reduces the supply, keeping prices overly high. The imbalance of power between buyer and seller also forces the latter — as some advise here — to potentially underprice their items by taking the highest buy offer.

If we abolish the listing fees instead, or turn them into into transaction fees, we immediately bring all of these items back onto the market. Sure, you will get sellers repricing every minute until they find the “correct” price. But that’s healthy and exactly what should happen. When prices are high, more sellers will compete. Then as prices decline — sometimes below cost — some sellers will leave the market, so supply falls accordingly. We eventually have what economists call an “equilibrium”.

So no, it’s not a bad thing for listing fees to be removed. For both buyers and sellers, it will make it easier to buy or sell the items you need. For Anet, my guess is that whatever losses in listing fees will be more than made up for by the increase in transactions. Just like in the real world.

Comparing real world to GW2 LOL..

Go check my first post and you’ll see why you make no-sense.
The no-life people will always undercut you by 1 extra copper, and kept on chipping the price down because EVERYONE can now do exactly what you did now.

Also because the seller has no risk of listing the fee, they can completely manipulated the market at their own free will. They can determine some insane price and wouldn’t have to worry about not able to sell out, and could always adjust the price, and the buying has no power to compete the market because now you have total control of market. In short, you want yours sold out and not others, period.

Your real life theory also doesn’t make sense if you look at the bigger picture.

In real life, if you sell something expensive or in large quantity, like a house and stock market, THERE IS A GREAT RISK IN SELLING YOUR GOODS. You could be undercut by inflation or housing preference change. You have to pay for the FIXED cost (Like construction fee, listing fee, promotion, marketing) regardless of how much you sell out your goods, and you have to make sure it makes break-even point after certain quantity of goods are produced.

(edited by Toxsa.2701)

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

In the real world, the Internet brought listing fees down to zero or almost zero. And guess what? The world did not end. Instead, transactions moved quickly onto the Web. Markets become more efficient. And more buyers and sellers became satisfied.

What we have in GW2 is a market failure. Lots of high-end goods are stuck simply because the sellers cannot afford or do not want to reprice them due to the exorbitant listing fees. This artificially reduces the supply, keeping prices overly high. The imbalance of power between buyer and seller also forces the latter — as some advise here — to potentially underprice their items by taking the highest buy offer.

If we abolish the listing fees instead, or turn them into into transaction fees, we immediately bring all of these items back onto the market. Sure, you will get sellers repricing every minute until they find the “correct” price. But that’s healthy and exactly what should happen. When prices are high, more sellers will compete. Then as prices decline — sometimes below cost — some sellers will leave the market, so supply falls accordingly. We eventually have what economists call an “equilibrium”.

So no, it’s not a bad thing for listing fees to be removed. For both buyers and sellers, it will make it easier to buy or sell the items you need. For Anet, my guess is that whatever losses in listing fees will be more than made up for by the increase in transactions. Just like in the real world.

Comparing real world to GW2 LOL..

Go check my first post and you’ll see why you make no-sense.
The no-life people will always undercut you by 1 extra copper, and kept on chipping the price down because EVERYONE can now do exactly what you did now.

Also because the seller has no risk of listing the fee, they can completely manipulated the market at their own free will. They can determine some insane price and wouldn’t have to worry about not able to sell out, and could always adjust the price, and the buying has no power to compete the market because now you have total control of market. In short, you want yours sold out and not others, period.

In real life, if you sell something expensive or in large quantity, like a house and stock market, THERE IS A GREAT RISK IN SELLING AND BUYING THEM. You could be undercut by inflation or housing preference change. You have to pay for the FIXED cost regardless of how much you sell out the stuffs, and you have to make sure it makes break-even point after certain quantity of stuffs are produced.

Your real life theory doesn’t make sense if you look at the bigger picture too.

Nevermind using tp listings to store your items.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

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Posted by: Ankushp.7245

Ankushp.7245

The current system is fine……..It is a good coin sink and deters gold sellers and crazy people with no life from ruining the trade post for others.

Have more patience, especially if u insist on getting the best deal.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

I’m likely going to have to take a large chunk out of my projected profit to sell my last two remaining legendary weapons. Lately people have been creating and selling them like crazy. However, despite all of this, I am against any change in the current system regarding the listing fee. It’s there for a reason.

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Posted by: tern.7893

tern.7893

In the real world, the Internet brought listing fees down to zero or almost zero. And guess what? The world did not end. Instead, transactions moved quickly onto the Web. Markets become more efficient. And more buyers and sellers became satisfied.

What we have in GW2 is a market failure. Lots of high-end goods are stuck simply because the sellers cannot afford or do not want to reprice them due to the exorbitant listing fees. This artificially reduces the supply, keeping prices overly high. The imbalance of power between buyer and seller also forces the latter — as some advise here — to potentially underprice their items by taking the highest buy offer.

If we abolish the listing fees instead, or turn them into into transaction fees, we immediately bring all of these items back onto the market. Sure, you will get sellers repricing every minute until they find the “correct” price. But that’s healthy and exactly what should happen. When prices are high, more sellers will compete. Then as prices decline — sometimes below cost — some sellers will leave the market, so supply falls accordingly. We eventually have what economists call an “equilibrium”.

So no, it’s not a bad thing for listing fees to be removed. For both buyers and sellers, it will make it easier to buy or sell the items you need. For Anet, my guess is that whatever losses in listing fees will be more than made up for by the increase in transactions. Just like in the real world.

Comparing real world to GW2 LOL..

Go check my first post and you’ll see why you make no-sense.
The no-life people will always undercut you by 1 extra copper, and kept on chipping the price down because EVERYONE can now do exactly what you did now.

Also because the seller has no risk of listing the fee, they can completely manipulated the market at their own free will. They can determine some insane price and wouldn’t have to worry about not able to sell out, and could always adjust the price, and the buying has no power to compete the market because now you have total control of market. In short, you want yours sold out and not others, period.

Your real life theory also doesn’t make sense if you look at the bigger picture.

In real life, if you sell something expensive or in large quantity, like a house and stock market, THERE IS A GREAT RISK IN SELLING YOUR GOODS. You could be undercut by inflation or housing preference change. You have to pay for the FIXED cost (Like construction fee, listing fee, promotion, marketing) regardless of how much you sell out your goods, and you have to make sure it makes break-even point after certain quantity of goods are produced.

This point is overstated. I still don’t understand why it’s so bad for people to undercut one another by 1 copper. There is a natural floor to the price of a product (see below), and ultimately the goal is not just to sell a product but to sell it at a profit.

Let’s say you are selling orichalcum plated dowels. Someone comes in to continually undercut you, and eventually sells below cost. What happens?

  1. People who need orichalcum inscriptions will buy the dowels instead of buying mithril and orichalcum parts. Demand of orichalcum dowels increases.
  2. Sellers of orichalcum dowels will stop making them, and instead sell the mithril and orichalcum components (or use them to make other items). Supply of orichalcum dowels decreases.
  3. The net effect is that prices will be under pressure to rise. If you try to manipulate the market by fixing prices below cost, you will incur losses until you give up. And for what? The moment you let prices go up, demand falls and supply increases, and we are back to square one. Only difference is that you are now poorer than before.

So I don’t get the concern over market manipulation.

(edited by tern.7893)

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Posted by: Cry.5679

Cry.5679

[Original Poster Comments]

Firstly, I would like to thank everyone for participating in this conversation. But let’s not side track the conversation. Trading Post was created with a rule, highest bidder and lowest selling price. There is a flexibility in changing the highest bid, but none on the lowest selling price because of a major issue, the listing fees. I hope Arenanet can consider the problem and recommendations of this issue. [I might be gone when Arenanet implement it because it will take forever, but at least a voice is being heard from a supplier’s point of view. ]

For many who are concern about undercutting of prices. Let me give you my opinion. Bidders will set the demand, the problem is that it is difficult for suppliers to set the supply upon expensive products like legendary weapons. So it is okay to make adjustments to the listing fees as demand and supply [Market Equilibrium] will still be there. Price war might occur but it will still benefit both consumers [Buying at a cheaper cost] and sellers [able to sell their expensive goods]. Why isn’t this a win-win situation?

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

you can suggest anything you want. Just like other people have suggested buy order should have listing fee too before.

and they are saying it’s better in their opinion too.

So basically two totally opposite opinion each thinking their way is better and convincing other people. If you didn’t realize, many people disagree with you in this post. Just as there are people agreeing with you.

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Posted by: JustTrogdor.7892

JustTrogdor.7892

[I might be gone when Arenanet implement it because it will take forever, but at least a voice is being heard from a supplier’s point of view. ]

We all will be gone by then because Anet won’t implement your suggestion for the many reasons people listed above.

The Burninator

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

Price war might occur but it will still benefit both consumers [Buying at a cheaper cost] and sellers [able to sell their expensive goods]. Why isn’t this a win-win situation?

This is where your theory is flawed, it wont lead to you selling your legendary faster.

Lets say there are 10 legendaries listed on the tp and 1 gets sold every day. Those 10 sellers are still competing to make that 1 sale per day. So whoever is online at the right time and relists his legendary at the lowest listing price when the 1 buyer decides to make his purchase, is the lucky one. 9 sellers still wont be able to sell their legendary.

If you argue that the price war leads to lower listings and that might encourage additional buyers to purchase, you can do that already with the existing system.
If you listed your legendary for 3000g instead of 4000g, you propably would have sold it by now.

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Posted by: Biohazard.7523

Biohazard.7523

Ask them to do forum trade, where people will list expensive products. So if someone wants to buy it, they will reply.
You can earn full amount of money that way.
If the scam happens employers can return your product, because you have evidence on forum.

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Posted by: Vikkela.7261

Vikkela.7261

Apparently this player spent 200g on listing a Legendary for 2,000g (most likely undercutting others already listed). More people posted up the same Legendary at a cheaper price than his, thus his won’t sell. Now he wants the ability to change his original price without penalty or fee so that he can undercut those that undercut him.

Yes, it is as silly as it sounds.

I’m a bit confused, why is it silly for a salesman to rearrange his pricing and offer his goods for the same/a lower price as his competitors?
He has already lost the 200g and would lose additional money by taking it away from his possible profit?

9 Guardians later…

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Posted by: Algreg.3629

Algreg.3629

There are currently no ways to circumvent listing fee and transaction fees. Period. If you do arbitrary tests and come to wrong conclusions, that’s not our problem.

On topic:

Both fees, the listing fee of 5% and the transaction fee of 10%, serve a purpose. You not doing reasearch on what can be expected is not the markets fault. The market shifting and you not having sold your product in time is again not the markets fault.

Hi, I was selling a legendary a month ago and placed 200g just to list the item up. I could not sell it however as people has started to list the items at price below me. At this rate I will not be able to sell off my legendary. I want to reduce the price but could not as i need to repay another 200g just to reduce the price. This makes the system looks ridiculous as it penalize people who are selling expensive items.

There is an huge gap between demand price and supply price of the legendary. I understand it is important to have the listing price. But i do hope that Arenanet can allow more freedom in the ability to make price changes in trading posts for expensive items. Additionally, i also hope to set a limit to the prices of listing to reward those who work hard and sell the items to earn some profit. I hope you guys can understand where I am coming from. Thank you very much!

[Original Poster Comment]
I think some of you misunderstood my intention. Note that legendary prices are falling due to the arenanet notice and people are rushing to sell their legendary weapons they have kept.

I did not want to completely remove the listing fees. Instead, i proposed two recommendations as stated above.

Benefit: The purpose of a listing fee is to prevent people from treating the Trading Post like a storage space. This solution does that as well and benefits the sellers for paying ridiculous items. It also stops people from trading from mailbox which might lead to scam.

Away from the game for 1 year. Legendary prices are exactly where they were 1 year ago. Confirming, the sky is not falling.

The listing fee penalizes every one the same since it’s 5% for everybody. The fact that you have to upfront more on an expensive single item has nothing to do with getting penalized more. If someone was to sell 3,000 gold worth of linen cloth they’d have to pay the same amount of listing fee.

The purpose of the listing fee is not only to prevent people using the TP as storage. It’s also to discourage unrealistic pricing and penalize it. The difference bewteen sell and buy orders is very simple. Selling to buy orders you forgo a great part of risk, hence the buyer is willing to pay less.

[Original Poster’s Comment]

Hi firstly, thanks for your comment. I understand the importance of trading fees (as stated in my first post). However, won’t you think it would be better if sellers can adjust their price accordingly to the market’s demand? Tell me what’s the disadvantage if this system is implemented?

The current Trading Post is worked as the lowest seller and highest bidder. Selling at a ridiculous price is not a problem. The problem is what happens if you want to readjust your price to suit the market’s demand? There is little flexibility for this on our current Trading Post system.

We can negotiate the price in the real world, but in trading post, we can only communicate with numbers listed on Trading Post. Readjusting prices without penalization will definitely help the sellers and buyers.

Well, some might argue that there is a price war, but that will be how our current real world economy works. Do you see your government for re-taxing things you’ve sold when you give discounts?

that is not true at all. Depending on the kind of commerce, you cannot. You enter an auction, the auction house sets the rules. You are not negotiating a price with a buyer in this case.

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Posted by: Panites.6798

Panites.6798

I’m a bit confused, why is it silly for a salesman to rearrange his pricing and offer his goods for the same/a lower price as his competitors?
He has already lost the 200g and would lose additional money by taking it away from his possible profit?

Because a real life salesman doesn’t get undercut every 30 seconds and there aren’t people looking to buy every minute. How is it so hard to understand that GW2 market and many other online game markets are controlled by players that mostly only play the markets?
To put it in perspective:

You own a pizza shop and sell pizzas for $5. Another pizza shop opens right next to yours with a bigger sign with a smaller price of $4.90. They even serve the same exact pizzas made by the same chefs with the same ingredients. And the buyer knows this. Now another pizza shops opens in the next second etc…..

This will continue with the old shops having to reduce their prices lower than every new shop in order to make any money at all. This then continues until no one else wants to sell $1 pizzas, which is when the buyers will buy. Making all these new opened pizza shops redundant and a waste of money invested EXCEPT for the one selling the cheap pizzas.

This makes the sellers looking for a small profit but in large numbers the only winners, while everyone else losses.
The only way for this to re stabilize is when there are more buyers than sellers, but as you can see with every item on the TP, there are at least 3 items listed with one going to sell first if not undercut.

This is why OPs method will NEVER work in GW2.

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

Apparently this player spent 200g on listing a Legendary for 2,000g (most likely undercutting others already listed). More people posted up the same Legendary at a cheaper price than his, thus his won’t sell. Now he wants the ability to change his original price without penalty or fee so that he can undercut those that undercut him.

Yes, it is as silly as it sounds.

I’m a bit confused, why is it silly for a salesman to rearrange his pricing and offer his goods for the same/a lower price as his competitors?
He has already lost the 200g and would lose additional money by taking it away from his possible profit?

There is nothing wrong with it. The OP can change his price right now, he just loss 200 gold.

And quite honestly, the OP didn’t loss 200 gold. He most likely just make less profit.

There isn’t even anything wrong with what the OP suggested. Anet just happen to think their system fit their game better.

Many bid/trading system charge listing fee. Some mmorpg even charge listing fee if items don’t sell in 24 hours.

I like the idea OP suggested, except people should be able to set 2 price. A listing price and a lowest selling price which would automatically adjust the price if he get undercut untill his lowest selling price. A similar system could be use on bidding price too. That is just my personal preference.

There is no right or wrong answer, it’s just people’s preference.

(edited by laokoko.7403)

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

When you put something up on AH at a cost people arent willing to pay, you may loose the fee because you have to relist it later. Its a risk we all take, no matter the cost. Legendaries are no different. Sell it for the correct price next time.

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Posted by: Tabootrinket.2631

Tabootrinket.2631

what about the possibility to undercut your own price once every few months in a limited way (like maybe 1% max) if the product doesn’t sell ?
(by having a timer that would reset after every correction, like when you’re crafting some ascended materials)

That way there wouldn’t be any kind of competitive pricing going on, and people would be able correct their price if they were unlucky enough to sell their possession in a highly fluctuating period.
Plus, by limiting the correction, it would still force people to aim for an accurate price otherwise they’ll have to change their price little by little every few months and might not make it to the right price in time.

(edited by Tabootrinket.2631)

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

Plus, by limiting the correction, it would still force people to aim for an accurate price otherwise they’ll have to change their price little by little every few months and might not make it to the right price in time.

The system is already limiting the correction. If the OP undercut by more in the first place, he won’t get into this problem.

If the OP don’t want to get undercut, he should undercut more so less people will try to undercut him.

Like I said before, there is no right or wrong answer.

Right now I have a black lion weapon which have no supply on the trading post(just a sclerite rifle no one probably care). If I can switch price at will, I’ll list it for 2000 gold right now on the trading post and not worry about paying a penalty if it dont’ sell. Instead I have to decide if I want to gamble and sell it cheaper.

There is pros and cons for every system. And Anet just happen to went with theirs.

(edited by laokoko.7403)

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Posted by: Tabootrinket.2631

Tabootrinket.2631

Hum no. The problem here has never been about people pricing too low, but people who price too high so they get left out.
I just gave a solution for them that would not hinder the undercuters. That’s all. And that’s the main problem mentioned by the OP.

You price your good low, it has a chance to get sold right away.
Now, what about those who were around the right range of price at their time but end up with a too expensive product half a year later ?
They should have a way to get their chance at selling their product. And my post answered that problem.

I agree with you there are pros and cons to every system, but every system can also get improved, just like the class balancing. There’s nothing wrong in tweaking a system if it can improve it, without changing its core.

(edited by Tabootrinket.2631)

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

The listing price serves to act as a deterrent to the type of activities that you are asking to be allowed to do (using the TP as storage and making bad pricing decisions), plus you are just introducing arbitrary limits (the time period for free relists or the gold amount for a fee reduction) which are evidence of bad game design (because they do not scale).

If you don’t want to do the research necessary to sell your expensive item using a listing, fill a buy order.

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Posted by: rapthorne.7345

rapthorne.7345

One of the reasons GW2’s economy is stable is because of the TP listing fees, I see no reason to remove or cap them

Resident smug Englishman on the NA servers, just because.

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Posted by: Tabootrinket.2631

Tabootrinket.2631

“Bad game design” I’m not so sure about that. What about you develop your opinion on that ?

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Posted by: Doggie.3184

Doggie.3184

It works that way on purpose so people don’t try to skyrocket prices so easily. You can always sell it for order price too.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

Bad game design I’m not so sure about that. What about you develop your opinion on that ?

Arbitrary limits require constant attention to be moved up and down as the economy shifts, or they get left alone and cause permanent damage because they were not manually modified when needed. This is because they do not scale with the economy on their own.

That is why they are bad game design.

Well designed limits will adjust themselves based on what the current state of the economy is, not based on last year’s state.

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

Hum no. The problem here has never been about people pricing too low, but people who price too high so they get left out.
I just gave a solution for them that would not hinder the undercuters. That’s all. And that’s the main problem mentioned by the OP.

You price your good low, it has a chance to get sold right away.
Now, what about those who were around the right range of price at their time but end up with a too expensive product half a year later ?
They should have a way to get their chance at selling their product. And my post answered that problem

Their not at the right range of price. Take for example I place a buy order for x item at 70.99 silver.

In two weeks I have never bought a single one of that item. because there is always people over bidding by one copper. And there are tones selling everyday. Right now the buy order is at 71.1 silver.

If you have a habit of crafting high price item, weather that is legendary or mjonir or whatever. If you only undercut by 1 gold. The chance of you getting undercut is really really high. It will literally never sell. But if he undercut by 100-200, it have a much better chance to getting sold.

I would guess OP is trying to sell eternity. If he thinks a second he should know the price is trending down, since there are more and more people who try to sell it after the wardrobe system. He should have undercut more to begin with.

(edited by laokoko.7403)

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Posted by: Tabootrinket.2631

Tabootrinket.2631

It works that way on purpose so people don’t try to skyrocket prices so easily. You can always sell it for order price too.

At last a fair point. Yeah I see now.